Lla Dafern/Archive 18

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

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The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
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2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
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Der Kampf

... seems to have been written by both Hitler and Thorsten (?!). Kyrmse 12:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see where there the possible "IFs" (Inconsistency in the Fabric of Subreality) lie: the two authors both have books with similar titles (Mein Kampf and Der Kampf); they also have two books with different titles and the same basic source material (Dream of Iron and Der Kampf).
I think what's going on is that Hitler and Thorsten are simply writing about the same struggle, but from different angles. Thorsten seems to have written a historical novel, set in IB's HRE, while Hitler wrote a historical fantasy, set in an alternate history. The hatred is the same, though, and so are the struggles. Hitler wrote his in the 1950s, while Thorsten was writing a couple decades later. Hitler also wrote an autobiography that involves some of the same themes as these other works (Mein Kampf).
Elemtilas 01:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
All right, I seem to have been temporarily blinded by my own rashness. Below are the texts as I see them now:
  • Under Thorsten: "Der Kampf" was an early and chilling example of Thorsten's brilliance in bringing out the terrors of unabated hatred. [Der Kampf is therefore a book by Thorsten]
  • Under Adolf Hitler: Drawing upon his experiences in GWI and the latent bigotry to be found against Gypsies and Jews in his native Germany, he paints a gruesome picture of genocide and racial purity in a war called Der Kampf taken to unholy extremes. [This, speaking of his novel The Dream of Iron; I understand that "Der Kampf" is the name of the war in the novel]
  • Also under Adolf Hitler: [...] the posthumously published autobiographical novella "Mein Kampf", which chronicles Hitler's own struggles with mental illness, recovery from horrific warfare and coming to terms with the social ills of his native land. [Mein Kampf is therefore a book by Hitler]
Hope I got that right now! ;-) Kyrmse 14:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think covers all the bases, and makes for a good disambiguation statement! Elemtilas 14:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent changes

Is anyone else having trouble trying to view Recent Changes? Benkarnell 23:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It's been working fine for me. Geoff 03:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
No problem here --Marc Pasquin 12:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Works well here.--Pedromoderno 15:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Your ISP called. They told me to tell you they hate you and are blocking you from the Recent Changes page. :D BoArthur 18:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


I'd like to get the article Turkestani & Uygur Transcriptions deleted. It's basically the same as Turkestani and Uygur Transcriptions, but the "&" character in the title makes the link go awry. Geoff 05:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for deleting "Turkestani", BoArthur! However, the link to the original Turkestani & Uygur Transcriptions article is still showing up. Click on it, though, and you get taken to "Turkestani", same as you always did. How do we make the whole thing go away? Geoff 23:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It's an old problem. The "&" always causes trouble in titles. There's another of those buggers floating around somewhere over here. It can't even be deleted; when you try, you get a message that such article doesn't exist, but it still shows up in the listing. It's best to avoid it, remove all links to it and let the thing boil in its own grease till the end of time. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 18:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

<sigh>. I guess we're stuck with it now, then. Any chance we can put up some kind of warning against using the "&" in titles somewhere on the Wiki? Maybe on one of the "how it all works" kind of pages or something. Geoff 03:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I've added something to the help section. But alas, I tried something but it seems like we can't get rid of the page in question. By the way...


Accidentally, I stumbled upon Baş Pağına. What a cool thing! But I noticed that it linked to only from the Main Page in IB English. It should be linked to quickly from other Main Pages, too. So, what kind of language is this, exactly? It's linked to under the name "Inter Turkic". Is this some kind of lingua franca for Turkestan? Some sort of Turkestani Riksmål? What language(s) is it primarly based on? Did you create it yourself? And, would it be correct to name this language "Turkestani"? (Theoretically, we could use the deleted page Turkestani for a description of this language) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is one of mine. It's not all that fleshed out yet- the Main Page is about the only text in it. It's something of a cross between mostly Qazaq (from the Qipchak branch of the Turkic family) and Uzbek (of the Chaghatai branch), with additions from the Northern and Oghuz branches. As it's heavily based on a language I speak and others that are really quite similar, it's really been a case of de-Russifying and then Uzbekifying or Turkmenifying the Kazakh that I know. As for its conhistory, it's probably a more-or-less disused IAL promoted by the Turkestani government at some point in the past as a lingua franca.
I wanted to make links from the other pages, but I have no idea what "InterTurkic" would be in Francien, let alone something interesting like Brithenig or Wenedyk! In the InterTurkic language itself, it would be "TürkAralıq"
Geoff 12:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I will happily translate it into Wenedyk and a few others, I'm just wondering how likely it is that a name like "InterTurkic" would be used abroad. My best guess is that the Erdekans would rather call it "Turkestani", just like Riksmål is known as "Scandinavian" in huge parts of the world. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 12:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Whatever works for the speakers in question. Its official name in IB English might be "InterTurkic", which is a direct translation of its own name for itself, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone calls it that. I've linked to the InterTurkic main page from the Francien as "Entre-Tùrkien" and from the German as "Türkeſtaniſch". Geoff 13:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I have a feeling Entre-Tùrkien isn't correct, but let a native speaker tell what it should be. As for the name "InterTurkic", to the layperson it would rather evoke the connotation of a Pan-Turkic IAL, which would suggest it to be built not only on the languages of Turkestan, but also on Turkish, Bashkir etc., all the way to Yakutia. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 13:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I had wondered about this language as well, but assumed it had come from one of the many posts I had missed. Since it's a whole new language, it (along with Sogdo) might be of interest to the entire Conculture group. Benkarnell 14:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Main Page

Well well, here's another one: HoftSidan. What language is that? I've been away for a while and have missed a few things. But it isn't linked to from any of the other main pages and we should fix that. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 13:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the page was created by Geoff...Geoff? What language is HoftSidan representing? It's obviously Germanic...is it your Low Saxon (or whatever the real name of it is, since my brain is not working this Monday AM....) BoArthur 16:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Appears to be Emisc. And that's Geof (F - Hannover), not Geoff (FF - Turkestan). Very confusing, since they joined IB at approximately the same time! I missed the page too - very impressive! Methinks each main page should have a tag someplace that identifies (and links to) the language. And, while we're at it, maybe a template to go on language pages that reads "The Main Page has a translation in NAME OF LANGUAGE." Benkarnell 17:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Wow, it looks like I've quite some catching up to do. I didn't even know Hannover has been claimed! In any case, Emisc seems quite a ride. Looks very archaic, but it is indeed quite reminiscent of Frisian.
I like Ben's idea of making a tag that provides a link to the language itself. BTW, I'm very proud of our collection of Main Page translations. I think I did the first one, in Wenedyk, and mostly for fun. In the meantime, it has grown into a respectable collection. It would be nice to make it grow a little more. If anybody who created (or knows) language that isn't there yet, it would be nice to add it. I might eventually give it a try in Polish; it's not an existing language in IB, but since it's an acknowledged conlang, it might be worth adding it anyway. I regret that my Russian isn't good enough for such a thing! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 19:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Gud idée, Jan. Jag ska skriver en på Svenska -- with appropriate changes to match up with IB Swenska... BoArthur 22:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Well done, Dan! But say, doesn't Swenska use w instead of v, as the name seems to suggest? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 08:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
According to what Benct wrote, it favors W. So I figured that there were a few things that I could call "exceptions", like Huvudsida. I don't know--what do you think? I'm fine to move it, if need be. BoArthur 18:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Hello everyone! Sorry I've been away for quite some time! Visited beautiful Byron Bay with my mates travelled around sydney a bit and now I've moved house! But I'm back now! Great to see all the wonderful work everyone's been doing over the last month and a bit! and yes that's my Emisc translation of the front page. I just edited it a second ago because I forgot that Emisc doesn't really like the letter 'v' at all.... Could we start writing translations of articles into the different languages? or are we just doing the homepages for now? Would love to start getting back into Emisc by doing some translation work. Well my friends actually call me Geofism alot of time (lol) so you can just call me that to help stop some of the confusion. Geofism 11:59 12th February 2009 (AEDST)


3,000 pages is a pretty big sign of the Universe's growth! I believe the honor goes to Geoff's Qaşgar War? Benkarnell 17:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. And well-deserved. Congrats, Geoff! :) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 19:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


I was wondering if I could blank IB Greece's pages (or at least what needs to be) for rewrites. Misterxeight 15:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Blanking pages isn't really "The Way Things Are Done." What all do you have in mind to rewrite? BoArthur 15:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Basically, everything. Who Konstantino Leganopolous is, how he came to power, what the Imperialist Party is & was, how the economy boomed, and there being no talks of colonization except 2. Misterxeight 01:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I can see that there has been a lively conversation about this on Conculture. I presume this will be okay -- but I'll let Padraic have the final say. BoArthur 17:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree that blanking pages is not the solution. What you can do is add the "work in progress" tag, and replace the bad stuff with better stuff. I also think it might be an idea to follow your own suggestion and submit Greece for the "Collaboration of the Fortnight". —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 20:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


Do we seem to need a new category? Several constitutions have been cropping up (not Xliponia's; that's an older one), so they should become linked somewehere. Kyrmse 13:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Category:Constitutions is new as of last night! I considered adding Xliponia's, but that seemed embedded in a different article, and seemed to be an outline rather than a full text. [edit] It looks like there is a complete text there. Maybe copy it into its own article? Benkarnell 16:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
If it's already on a webpage, a link would be more in order, with pertinent excerpts. BoArthur 16:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree... but I can't find it on the webpage. I think it's only hosted here. Benkarnell

Romance Family Branches

I'd like to suggest that instead of having South Central, North Central, etc. we re-visit the branching of the IB Romance family tree.

I'd like to suggest that we have a Southern Branch (which could possibly include Xliponian and Sardinian), a Central Branch (lumping together the North Central and South Central (and branch it underneath the header, including Lessinu and Jovian and Lombard), and keep the rest of Western Romance's sub-branches as presently constituted. What say ye? BoArthur 00:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


Hi all. Just wondering if anyone would mind me doing something with the Finno-Ugric languages? Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Võro etc. No info on here as of yet. Any one else got any input??? Geofturner 10:20 18th Feb 2009 (AEDST)

So far there's a rough sort of chart at Uralic, and one Finnic conlang in IB: Seimi. Benkarnell 23:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Wow I didn't even notice that page! lol! Cheers! Geofism 11:00 18th Feb 09 AEDST
certainly, you are free to do anything :) but check the conculture disco group (on yahoo groups) as there are few discussions on finno-ugric languages conducted between jussi santeri (the guy who managed them before you showed interest) and humble me; e.g discussion started in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture/message/17229 . note that existence of e.g. nassland and vozgian republic changes the map of F-U cultures a lot. the finnish language *there* was influenced rather by proto-nassian than proto-russian, finns were under nassian rule for a relatively long time. next, *there* is no F-U karelian language, karelian is one of the nassian dialects. also other F-U languages of ingrian isthmus never appeared to exist cos of older slavic settlement *there*. i still have in my archive on comp some discussions with jussi stored, so i may go through them and share. good luck ;) Jan II. 07:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Rad! thanks heaps Jan! Geofism 12:28 2nd March 09 AEDST

Russian Currency Union

Seeing as how Russia used to be quite powerful and much more nationalistic then *here*, it would not be that hard to believe that they pushed for and got a currency union akin to those we see elsewhere in IB, such as the European Federation and others. I propose we look into this possibility, and see what states would wish to be a part of such a currency union and other details surrounding it. Seth 02:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not so sure at all about that. As far as I know, currency unions are a fairly recent phenomenon in IB - more so than *here*, I believe. Even if the SNOR would have pushed for a currency union with other members of the snorist bloc of nations, say, in the mid-1980s, either it wouldn't have lasted long, or it wouldn't have become effective at all.
And after that? While Western and other countries are trying out different types of supranational unity, quite the opposite is happening in the East. Countries like Ukraine, Latvia and Georgia are more than happy to be free from Russian hegemony right now, about that last thing they'd want is importing the ruble. Besides, Russia's economy lays pretty much in ruins. Which country would want a currency union with such a monster? At this point, I don't think you'd find a single country that would actually want that. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 10:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I think they'd be much more likely to look West rather than East. BoArthur 16:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Quito so. Besides, and that's something I forgot to add: the Russian Federation is something of a currency union in itself. But only the gods know for how long! It's a miracle none of the republics has issued its own currency yet... Although I've heard that the RPN is making progress in that direction. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 16:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Seems plausible to me that during the SNORist days, many of the Russian-dominated nations would've used currencies equal in value, or at least pegged at a simple rate to, the Russian ruble. Of course, in the aftermath of SNOR's fall, that union would've crumbled. Nik 18:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I dunno. I'm not an expert in financial/economic stuff at all. Basically I'd say that the situation was similar to *here*'s: that all those countries (Russia included) had their own currencies that didn't really have much value abroad but whose exchange rates were kept high artificially. Which means that they may or may not have been pegged to the ruble. But then, those countries didn't fall from the Moon. They all had had their currencies before as well. I don't really know or understand this whole thing about "hard currency" with gold and silver amounts and the like, but it seems likely that quite a lot of gold and silver from Slevania etc. were shipped to Russia during the snorist period. But how could such a country rebuild itself after the fall of the SNOR? Hire alchemists to turn desert sand into gold? Buy new gold (but with what, then)? Unless, of course, the SNOR had decided to abandon the Gold standard at some point. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


It occured to me that the next Kemrese election is in June 2010, just under eighteen months away. So I need to start thinking about current events leading up to this decision. The Liberals in Kemr have held the Toisagdad for twelve years, although the last election returned them in a stronger majority than ever. Their erstwhile allies and rivals in the Senate, the Labourites and the Conservatives will be looking at ways of making a change. What foreign, international and global events have happened in the last four years that matter? Is there a credit crunch? - AndrewSmith 07:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It is more than likely that after twelve years of having the same party in government, the people are more than fed up with it. Parties that govern too long tend to become, eh... "regentesque". They become arrogant, over-self-confident, possibly corrupt. Besides, much of the spirit is gone. Even if they are doing a bang-up job, there will always be a growing number of people who think everything should be different. Whatever government is in charge, there must have been strikes, demonstrations, unpopular measures, etc. From that point of view, it's always easy to be in the opposition. In any case, I'm sure the phrase "Down With Boibont" can be overheard more than often!
As for the credit crisis, I don't know. I think nobody does. Given the fact that crises like that are caused by relatively small things, I'd say IB is sufficiently different to make it unlikely that we have the very same thing *there* - unless we assume the same thing happened paralelly. But given the fact that this kind of things just happen once in a decade or so, we should take it for granted that IB has the same problem.
Now there's one thing that makes me curious. *Here* the USA are economic superpower no. 1 in the world. When something bad happened at Wall Street, the results can be felt everywhere in the world the next day. When bad things keep happening for a while, soon the whole world is in crisis. What would the situation be in IB? I guess the NAL-SLC is a very powerful country economically, but way less than the USA *here* anyway. Do we have other countries that could have such an effect on the world? The Scandinavian Realm, for example? Or the FK? In any case, it just might be that all the political scandals in the NAL have had some influence on world economy, too.
As for major international events: there are two things I can think of, really: the Florida War (2004), and the murder of Louisianne's first president and Japan's Empress (2006). After that, things seem to have cooled down a bit. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
EDIT: And one more thing. When a party has ruled alone for such a long time, you can be sure that a lot of its members and voters feel alienated from it. Opinions like: "Is this what I've been fighting for, for over 30 years?", "This Boibont is not a true liberal!", "This is not my party anymore", etc.etc.etc. Probably the party has lost many of its older and younger members (and attracted new members who are more like opportunists), and it's not at all impossible that some of them have founded a new party. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
EDIT 2: A text like Kemruis Eleithiwn could easily be sung to any text that contains the phrase Kyrie Eleison, no?
The two economic systems are I think so different that all the little things that have caused *here*'s present crisis (we could probably lay blame on things done as far as a century ago!) are not happening *there* in parallel. For crises *there*, we need to look more at what caused crises *here* in the 19th century (because *here* we were using hard currency at that time, while *there* they are presently using hard currency -- if there's a crisis, they can't just pouf into existence some zillions of pounds to cure everything, because pounds = gold). Probably the system *there* is more stable, or so it has seemed, over the last century. Perhaps the slower pace and lack of radical swings and tighter monetary policies have had a calming effect in IB that we lack *here* in the primary world.
Regarding the NAL, yes, it is an economic powerhouse, and probably not too far behind the US (in IB terms though, mind!). Probably the recent political scandals have had some effect on the economy, but probably not as bad as it might be. I would imagine that serious economic effects would occur only if the government turned out to be absolutely horrible and corrupt and sought to fiddle with the money. Once a government starts playing around with how many pounds it's got, other countries really become nervous.
I agree with your assessment of major events, keeping in mind that the Florida War is still slogging through its aftermath; though I tend to view the assassination of the First President as more a "political correction" than a major event, given Louisianne's history up to recent times.
I also agree with the comment on "politics of boredom". People do get fed up with the party that's doing things mostly right just because they've been in power so long. Elemtilas 22:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Back in the 19th century, crises were rather more frequent, IIRC, bue this can be attributed to a lack of government oversight. *There* they presumably have regulations in place to prevent the booms and busts that ravaged the economies of the last century. But even though "pounds = gold", there are still banknotes and lending and credit - a lot that can go wrong. But I'd agree, nothing all that similar to the situation *here*. The underlying cause, unchecked growth in the USA housing market, would have no parallel *there*, where the NAL is not culturally oriented toward endless growth. The Native "seven generation" idea advises everyone to approach change cautiously, and the "Less is More" approach toward prosperity makes ostentatious display a taboo.
IB's world economy seems much more decentralized, but with the Commonwealth being so interconnected I'd imagine that anything happening in one major Commonwealth nation would have effects felt in all the others.
As for major events, the NAL political scandals seem unending. And that confusing matter surrounding the isles of Lundy and Tokelau is tangentially related to Kemr, but is mostly a curiosity. Benkarnell 02:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree -- one would imagine that IB countries developed some sort of reguations to curb the wild seesaw ride that might otherwise have evolved. Yes, there are banknotes, but they don't have an endless printing press to make them on! You've got to have something backing them, or else they very quickly become worthless bits of paper, because other people with real money aren't going to want to bother with them. And yes, there is credit and lending -- and perhaps therein could lie an achilles heel. If enough people borrow, and can't pay back, well, they end up with a crisis! Agree on Seven Generations and Less is More.
And everytime someone mentions "Lundy" (and now, "Tokelau"), he sends shivers up the spines of Government lawyers in Castreleon. They don't like Lundy, and have not liked it for many years. It has long posed a constitutional mystery in Kemr, and they haven't quite figured out what to do with it. They don't like the Tokelau Deal either, because it has been the cause of great consternation and confusion, and not a little fear. And perhaps most of all, they dislike Mr Morris. The mystery man whose motives are unknown but with seemingly depthless pockets, a quiet and unassuming demeanour and a knowing twinkle in the eye. Mullt periglus, they mutter among themselves. Mulltisaf moleist.
Kemruis Eleithiwn The road we must travel :)
I hadn't considered Nativist politics influencing Commonwealth thinking. Good point, that man! At a guess I would say Commonwealth countries implemented the same checks and balances on the economy after the Great Depression *there* as *here*, or similar ones. Both the FK and the NAL probably operate with a nod, a wink, and something slipped for you underneath the table (hopefully not a bodypart if you've been good). So it may be a matter of time before somebody thinks 'what's in it for me!' I don't know if the Scandanavians would be so murky in their economic policies.
I suspect the Kemruis government is going to have to say something about Greece. I haven't been following it, but I understand they are claiming to be the new Imperium.
And don't mention Lundy! -- AndrewSmith 04:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh, yes, before I forget, I have seen my government *here* change sides due to the politics of boredom: "It time for some new faces (We promise not to change things (cross fingers))" --- AndrewSmith 04:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I brought up the possibility a while back that in stead of exile in I think Venice, Paleologus (the last emperor Wossname the Somethingorother) might consider 'exile' in Kemr, it being, in 1453, the last bastion of the old empire. *Here*, he sold the imperial title to the kings of France; *there*, one supposes he could sell it to the Kemrese crown (though the Teruins don't ever seem to have used it) or his progeny could have married into Kemrese royalty and the title could then thus pass through the system in a natural fashion. Though, still, the Teruins don't seem to have used the title -- almost as if it were some magical thing of power not to be meddled with. Or no, that's wizzards. Or something anyway.
And yes, don't get us started on Lundy! Quite possibly, Lundy will prove to be the center of attention and likely the maker or breaker of governments this year.
One thing IB has not seemed to have room for, with all its seven generation condominiums and other curious living arrangements, is that "politics of boredom". If anything, IBers might be bored of all the excitement. As for Greece and its pretensions to new imperium, the Senad needs only give em a raspberry, or whatever the Kemrese equivalent is, for all such pretensions are worth! ;)))))) Perhaps some elder Senator can rise at the end of each sessions and offer some catch-phrase, like "THE HEDGEHOG CAN'T BE BUGGERED AT ALL!" That about sums it up. :))) Elemtilas 12:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

With no major international incidents happening this election looks to be driven by domestic events in the kingdom (whatever they turn out to be). I did a rough poll to see what the numbers turned out to be: Liberal 19.1% Labour 15% Conservative 10.5% National 2.9% Communist 2.3% Freedom 1.6% Ecological 1.2% Don't Know/Don't Care/Refuse To State 47.4% Could prove to be an interesting election! -- AndrewSmith 02:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Without a doubt, the domestic issues are the same they've always been, only warmed over for a new year!: too many spending projects Up North (if you live in the south); the trams are always running slow; too many spending projects down south (or so they say in Dui); insufficient kitty litter stocks to maintain current standards among the Feline elite; the recent production run of tokens for the public cacheir are the wrong size, so people all over Castreleon are seen looking more constipated than usual. And of course, if constipated Castreleonese weren't bad enough, doncha know, THE HEDGEHOG CAN'T BE BUGGERED AT ALL!Elemtilas 03:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about it I think the surface language of the election is going to be the old faithfuls: Education, Health, Law and Order, Transport. How to pay for a National Health Service for another 4 years. How to keep the workers who make the trains run on time (and get rid of the troublemakers). How to get good roads. How to deal with Casnew and the parts of Aberddui where immigrants dominate. And how to keep the Back of the Country happy. How to allow the rest of the kingdom enjoy the benefits of the experimental test-case that Castreleon has been for the FK. Anyone know some good Somalian names? I think one leading politician is going to be a Somalian indigene from Casnew. - AndrewSmith 07:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
See http://www.cdc.gov/TB/EthnographicGuides/Somalia/chapters/appendixE.pdf for some Somali names. As I understand it, a Somalian has three names: his own, a patronymic and an, er, aviolonymic (?) -- grandfathernymic! Girls have the same, so a brother and sister share two out of three names. Women don't change their names upon marriage.
I might suggest Awrala Ali Bahdoon as the name of this politician from Casnew... Elemtilas 01:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
(A grandfathernym would be papponymic.) —Muke Tever | 17:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Mil greidd a Vuke! Elemtilas 13:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Finally got around to working out the results from last year's election (only eleven months' late!) Boibont held the Toisagdad. The Liberals are still in charge but looking leaner. Can they change their front bench before 2014? Most other parties didn't move. A leadership struggle in the Freedom Party meant the Conservatives took a seat from them. They will be looking for blood! For all the talk about Ali Bahdoon and her newlook Ecotopians it was the Communists who took the seats from the Liberals. They're a new force in the Senate. The punters will be feeling a right bunch of charlies now for not seeing that happening. AndrewSmith 02:43, 5 May 2011 (PDT)


I was trying to create some new subcategories of Category:Turkestan ("Cities of Turkestan" and "Vılayatlar of Turkestan" to tidy up the rather large conglomeration of stuff I've accumulated for Turkestan. I successfully created the categories, by adding them to the page instead of the ones that were there, but even though I deleted the old "Category:XXX" links, the cities and provinces in question still appear on the old lists and still retain the old categories at the bottom of the page. All except Tajikistan, for some weird reason. See Merv and Qazaqstan (Turkestan) for examples.

Is there something I'm doing that I shouldn't, or not doing that I should? Is there some simple way to correct it? Or is the Wiki just being random? Geoff 23:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I've had a quick look and I think this is the cause of your problem: the Template:Turkestan contained two categories itself, automatically transmitting them to all articles containing it. Same thing with the Turkestani city infobox. I've removed the categories from the templates, so I guess it should be ok now. Is this what you meant? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 10:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Eureka! ("Give me a towel!") That seems to have cleared that up nicely. Thanks, Jan! Geoff 12:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Problems saving edits

Is anyone else getting "Internal server error" messages lately when they try to save their edits? Geoff 10:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, that's weird. The above saves just fine. But if I try to save my edit to Märgän Arms, it gives me 500 Internal Server Error messages. Geoff 10:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm getting it, too, when I try to save things (sometimes) and when I try to upload things. Muke? BoArthur 14:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't offhand know of a cause. I see Geoff's been able to edit Märgän Arms since posting this, and also to upload a file — are you still having the problem? Is it every time you try, or intermittently? Is it just a bare 500 message or does it have any further information on it? —Muke Tever | 04:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Eventually I uploaded a different image file and was able to save the article with that in it. The old image file is "Aldaspan.PNG", and I know it wasn't saving when I tried to put that in it. I don't know whether the underlying problem persists, or if I was just able to successfully circumnavigate the issue. Geoff 10:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
It's a bare 500 message. It's the one particular file I've tried to upload. The page saving is/was intermittent. BoArthur 14:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in resolving this. I'm hoping the problem was a problem in the thumbnailing/resizing process which I just resolved; Special:Newimages was returning 500 also but is now functioning normally. Can you try uploading it now? As for the errors on page saving, I'm still not particularly sure of what might be or have been causing it, but I'll keep looking. —Muke Tever | 21:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I eventually uploaded a different image and stuck the original into Category:Delete. But all the categories and pages where the old image appeared now work normally. I can re-upload the same old image if you like, but for my part, I have what I need. Geoff 23:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I haven't had page edit issues since I started editing today, I think it may have been related to the Special:Newimages issue. And the file I uploaded has hence shown up, just fine. So I think it's fixed. BoArthur 18:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I have experienced multiple and seemingly random edit problems the last few days (say 5 May through 8 May 2009). Even just 10 minutes ago I was trying to edit a section and got the Baleful Error. I tried twice and got the same error; then tried to edit the entire page and was able to do so without incident except that it seemed to take forever for Frath to save the edit. Elemtilas 02:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed some intermittent issues with connecting to the database server (on all the frath.net sites). Still trying to get it sorted out with the hosting provider. —Muke Tever | 16:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Slow in responding here, sorry — the database was moved to a different server, and access logs aren't showing any 500 errors showing in the past few days, so I think we might be okay (knock on wood) —Muke Tever | 21:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Muke! --BoArthur 22:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Seems to have been coming back—I'm seeing 500s again, and some 503s too, so it might be a new problem on their end. Emailing the hosting provider to look into it. —Muke Tever | 01:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Apparently the problem is still with images; turns out the process that creates thumbnails was using up far, far too much of the server's resources. I've tweaked some settings and hopefully there'll be result; I'm still keeping an eye on it. —Muke Tever | 04:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeesh -- I broke the wiki. Sorry Muke. --BoArthur 14:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

IB SI translation, please

Can someone help me with the bethisadation of the SI measures in the Louwala-Clough article? I think I got it right, and the metric units are the same as those *here*, so I left the real measures in metric -- but can someone double check me to make sure I got it right? Thanks. --BoArthur 17:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian Realm annexes the Bahamas!

Are the dastardly Vikings back for more?

At least, that's what I thought last week when all the boats moored outside my hotel window seemed to be flying this Viking ensign! I assumed it was the start of a large operation to reoccupy South Florida. For better or worse, it seemed to be a false alarm; but I've placed the photo here so you can judge for yourselves. Benkarnell 07:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


I hesitate to show up again, given that I have a tendency to disappear for long periods of time after a few months of being active here. I've been reviewing Benkarnell's map comparing my list of provinces with DeCameron's, and I'm leaning towards restoring some of DeCameron's provinces, as follows:

  • Restore:
    • Alba
    • Saluzzo
    • Tenda
    • Ormea
    • Finale
    • Lucca
    • Tyrrhenia
    • Santa Fiora
    • Vetulonia
    • Spoleto
    • Urbino
  • Merge:
    • Venda with the Padua Metropolitan Duchy
    • Torriglia with the Genoa Metropolitan Duchy
    • Piombino with Elba and the rest of the Tuscan Archipelago as Le Isole or something of that nature
  • Question mark:
    • the cluster in the middle of Modena-Romagna-Mantua-Parma
      • Gonzaga
      • Mirandola
      • Carpi
      • Correggio
      • Novellara
      • Guastalla
    • Aquilea

What bothers me about the Gonzaga, etc. cluster is that it seems a bit weird to me that there should be this one area with all of those mini-states. Is there no way they could be consolidated a bit? I haven't had a chance to look at Wiki about this yet, but I'll check there and see what I can find. The other consideration might be to not turn these back into provinces of their own, but to adjust their status in some other way (e.g. Aquilea as an autonomous community within Friuli — what bothers me about Aquilea is its population. *Here*, at least, it's tiny. Obviously, things could be different *there*, but currently, according to the Aquilea article, that is not the case).

I'd be interested to hear other people's perspectives on this. Sectori 17:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, I'm going to be reworking Elbic at some point in the near future, as it's pretty awful at the moment. Sectori 17:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Welcome Back!!!! I finally simply ran with the marriage between Mantua and Oltenia. Please feel free to take a look! Zahir 20:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Nice to meet at last! Before I say anything further, my thought process for the map is mostly written down on the Talk:Aosta page. Beyond what's written there, my biggest thought is that we should salvage as much already-written content as we can. This includes several of the states in the little cluster, as well as your Piombino page, which I always liked. My other thought is that most of the little states have a historical basis, but some do not, namely: Vetulonia, Santa Flora, and the others on your Merge list. Finally, I could suggest that especially for Aquilea, small doesn't necessarily mean impossible, especially if it's mostly a religious enclave. It could work almost like the Vatican *here* in that it was set apart simply to give the Patriarch a certain independence. Other than that, I'm very excited to be talking about this with the expert, as it were. Benkarnell 03:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice to meet you, as well, and thanks greatly for the map. It's a lot easier to see what's going on with a map that shows where everything is. Some other specific thoughts:

  • Re: the cluster of states:
    • The article on Gonzaga specifically says that the ruling family is related to the rulers of Mantua — it might make sense if they merged at some point (perhaps not long before Federation in 1933). That could result in something like the "Prince of Wales" situation in the UK *here*: the heir to the throne of Mantua is the Prince or Princess of Gonzaga. Give Gonzaga a local assembly and you've got a nice semi-merger that maintains the sense of local identity while making it easier to manage the region at the federal level.
    • However, considering that Novellara *here* contained the summer residence of the Gonzaga family, and Guastalla was the capital of the Duchy of Gonzaga, it would make much sense to me to merge them as a united Gonzaga as a separate province
    • I have no real problems with an independent Correggio, but *here* Mirandola and Carpi were both part of Modena even before the unification of Italy, Carpi from the 14th century on, Mirandola from 1711; I can see the latter having much stronger claims to provincehood than the former, but neither's would be very strong — even under Napoleonic rule, they'd both have been stuck in with Mantua.
  • Vetulonia, Tyrrhenia, and Santa Flora are very odd. Given the Tyrrhenian sea, I'd expect Tyrrhenia to be on the coast. It seems to me more like a Napoleonic district than a province with any historical basis. Furthermore, there's nothing written about it (i.e. it has no article), so in the end I'm more inclined to discard it.
  • Re: Aquilea, I'll have to consider. I suppose it's true that it is larger than the Vatican *here*, so. We'll see.
  • I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't even notice Tavolara, which I would love to keep as part of Italy (I know I originally said I would cede it to Two Sicilies, but since that didn't go anywhere, I'm changing my mind). I would probably merge it with Elba and Piombino into one province, Le Isole, whose executive power is nominally vested in a triumvirate comprised of the King/Queen of Tavolara, the Prince of Elba, and the Prince of Piombino.

Given these changes, the list is now as follows:

  • Restore:
    • Alba
    • Saluzzo
    • Tenda
    • Ormea
    • Finale
    • Lucca
    • Spoleto
    • Urbino
    • Correggio
  • Merge:
    • Venda with the Padua Metropolitan Duchy
    • Torriglia with the Genoa Metropolitan Duchy
    • Piombino with Elba, the rest of the Tuscan Archipelago, and Tavolara as Le Isole or something of that nature
    • Tyrrhenia with Tuscany and Umbria
    • Santa Flora and Vetulonia with Tuscany
    • Novellara and Guastalla with Gonzaga
  • Question mark:
    • Mirandola (consider merging with Modena?)
    • Carpi (consider merging with Modena)
    • Aquilea (either merge with Friuli with autonomy or as an independent province like the Vatican *here* or the Metropolitan Duchies *there*)

I'm now leaning towards an independent Aquilea, but merging Mirandola and Carpi with Modena. Sectori 03:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

That all makes sense to me. I still wonder what DeCameron was thinking with Tyrrhenia. There might have been an interesting story there - a civil war between a Bonapartist client state (Tyrrhenua) and the supporters of the legitimate grand ducal family of Tuscany. And the solution was to divide the province. But it is your area, so you can discard that. Benkarnell 18:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Popping in...

Hello everyone, here I am again. It's odd: every time I manage to fight my way through 500+ unread messages and try to contribute anything more substantial than the occasion "nice idea", "great work" etc., I find myself floaded with work and other real life issues again. And before I've finally found the time to polish it up and submit it, the same thing starts over again. As for now, I have several unfinished projects lying around, and I hope to be able to contribute something soon. I've some half-finished work done regarding the progress of the RTC in Southeast Florida, something about the RTC itself, and I hope to update the Batavian Kingdom a bit.

Sectori writes: "I hesitate to show up again, given that I have a tendency to disappear for long periods of time after a few months of being active here." Don't hesitate. As long as it's clear that you are still around and that you still care, you are excused. IB has a lot of members, in various age categories, life stages etc. I joined the project seven years ago, and my life was very different from what it is now. When I started, Poland was my professional interest, but I hadn't visited it for years. Now, I'm partly living there. Then, I had a regular job, which also meant that I knew pretty well when I was free, and how much time I would have left for conlanging, IB and the like. Nowadays, I'm working as a freelance translator, which means that I never know anything in advance. I guess that's life. As long as still feel part of the project and don't neglect it completely, you should never feel bad for being absent for longer periods. As for your plans regarding Italy, I can't really judge the details. If you want to make Italy oscillate a bit between Decameron's original ideas, your own changes and Ben's map, I can't see any problem with that. I'd say: you and Ben go sit down in a corner and work it all out together.

For other news, I got married on July 11!

Cheers, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 12:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Welcome and congratulations! Benkarnell 14:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Congratulations, indeed, and thank you for the advice. I won't hesitate next time, I promise! Sectori 03:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Very much congrats! May you create happiness for each other for decades yet to be! Zahir 22:36, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

English Crusaders Settling Elsewhere

This piece of news shows that English crusaders settled not only in Xliponia, but also in another Romance-speaking country. Before even getting to the Holy Land. Good for them. Edward of Mersdon established himself in Bovlai (due to an incident which deserves more precise research ;-) ) less than half a century after those others decided to stay in Tortosa. Kyrmse 12:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

That's very interesting. It seems like a very different situation from Xliponia, unfortunately - there were no Muslims in the region at the time, right? Although, Bovlai might have been occupied by a rogue Byzantine despot. And when de Mersdon captured the city, the Emperor was so grateful that he led him settle there, and eventually he was granted it as a kingdom. How's that sound? Benkarnell 02:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I seem to be responding very late! I have been working hard, which makes for little IB activity, and now I am going on vacation, which should be even more detrimental! ;-) But no, I can't change my QSS. As you can see at Rulers of Xliponia, there were neither Muslim nor Byzantine rulers in Xliponia at the time when de Mersdon arrived. It was the House of Bovlai, in power since 1132 (Odo I -> Odo II -> Bodo), so there was no capture, but rather a takeover when the House of Bovlai suddenly disappeared (I said I'd have to work harder on that) without leaving viable successors. So, as Edward was the highest-ranking person available (and had previously been very much honoured by King Bodo), he was acclaimed king, but with the title hoim < L comes, not req. Now, if anyone would help me dig out of the History books, and assorted manuscripts, what exactly it was that happened to Bodo & Co., I would be grateful :-).

Some Chinese Empire related flags


Below some ideas for flags related to Chinese Empire. I based them on designs from old FOIB web-site chinese flags pattern. You can use them (or not) or even modify them.

--Pedromoderno 02:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

What does the square patern represent in Kambuzá ? --Marc Pasquin 15:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I based Kambuzá flag on a flag design from the Kingdom of Cambodia *here* during japanese occupation. You can find the original flag on Wikipedia or on FOTW web-site. I think the square pattern represents Angkor Vat temple seen from above.--Pedromoderno 15:50, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Together, these make a very believeable and attractive body of flags! I like the idea of each colony getting a different color - that seems somehow very Chinese. The one thing I don't like is the two shades of yellow in the flag of Nam Viet. The color should be the same throughout. Benkarnell 12:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

NEW member


I had a problem with that index.php bug.

Well, I am actually old-timer, just can't contribute due to the apparent bug in the 'edit' button.

Well, I am a new member, called Chinofilipino, but now preferred to be called as general_tiu.

I am willing to fill out the spaces left by Boreanesia in Bornei-Filipinas.

--user:Chinofilipino Welcome back, Herr General Tiu! BoArthur 15:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you do something to remove that index.php bug in the edit page? I tried all the computers in the Philippines and it keeps saying [[1]]. Damn, this is a national server problem or a problem with my Wiki account.


Few questions on that — does this problem occur with any browser, or just Firefox? Does it happen on other wiki sites (like Wikipedia)? And does it happen the same whether you're logged in or logged out? [yes, you can't edit while logged out, but try any action that doesn't use a 'pretty' url, e.g. 'view source'] For the rest of you all: Has anyone besides Chinofilipino encountered this problem recently? —Muke Tever | 04:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I tried both IE and Firefox. Still the index.php prompt. Tried to go to the computer rental shop, same thing. Well, I guess this is account or regional settings related. I cannot edit while logged out and I tried other things, but still doesn't work.


You have be on your account to edit, there is literally no way to edit the wiki not as a registered user. That way you have be reviewed by the group and such. It makes vandalism impossible. Misterxeight 22:34, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

HOLY SH**! Tiu! Tis I, "Konrad." What is up? Seth 06:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is indeed Tiu...:) It is just that my account has a bug. I am actually logged in to the account to edit. It just when I click the 'edit' button the 'you are to open index.php' pops up and I don't know how to access it. Makes me think to request for a new account, but if this is solvable, then I had to wait. This is most likely to be an account problem or a regional settings problem.


I doubt there's anything in your wiki account that could cause it. My best guess, given what I've heard so far, what I've googled up, and that nobody else has reported this problem to me, is that it might be an issue with your Internet service provider. —Muke Tever | 02:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I guess you might be right, though some edit buttons actually work; the edit button on the top of the main page is the one really giving the index.php prompt, though.


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