Lla Dafern/Archive 5

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

DISCLAIMERS: The management is not responsible for physical or mental damage inflicted upon our guests, especially when it is caused by the food, by the BioCola, by the regular rioting here, or by any other kind of misbehaviour on anyone's part.
Any similarity to what the Wikipedians call The Village Pump is not entirely coincidental.

NOTA BENE: You can sign your messages by typing ~~~ for just your name and ~~~~ for your name + timestamp.

The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December


LOTR Movie News!

(Atlanta, Jacobia, NAL) - Amid great fanfare, executives at Metropolitan Moving Pictures announced that director Hadrian Voermann has been giving the go-ahead to make two motion pictures based on the classic fantasy novel "The Lord of the Rings" by Sir John R.R.Tolkien.

Voermann is a veteran filmmaker who once before attempted to make a big-budget fantasy epic, titled "Mythos" but which never left the development stage. His previous movies include a wide range of hits and misses, including the science fiction "Glaive Runner," the explicit noir thriller "Instincts Basic," the feminist road picture "Louise and Thelma" and the almost hallucinatory "The Sapphire Forest." He has also adapted novels to screen before, most famously "Lotilda" based on the scandalous work by Vlad Nabokhev. His most recent film was "Not Faithful," a drama about adultery.

According to studio spokesmen, the preproduction of "Fellowship of the Ring" has already commenced, with casting expected to be finished within the next three months. Filming is scheduled to begin this summer on location in Oregon. Zahir 17:59, 29 November 2005 (PST)

On Knights...

This may or may not be the appropriate place for my comment, but here it goes anyway. Íf the protocol in IB is the same as *here* (and nothing leads me to believe that it is not), thén one should talk to or about a knight of the FK using Sir plus his given name(s) and surname or Sir plus his given name(s) only. Thus:

Sir John [Ronald] [Reuel] Tolkien or Sir John,
but never
**Sir Tolkien.
In this particular case, since JRRT used to be called "Ronald" by family and friends, we may regard that as his "main given name" and refer to him as
Sir Ronald.
By the representative of the Stirps Ruginwaldica, Ronald Kyrmse 10:29, 5 December 2005 (PST)

I don't think I personally violated this protocol, but if I did please blame it on the reporter in question. Zahir 10:43, 5 December 2005 (PST)


I had a proposal some time ago that Japan was currently the occupying power in Hunan after Canton left. If no one has any objections, I'll make it QSS, and work out the details of the Japanese occupation Nik 13:23, 30 November 2005 (PST)

I can't see anything objection here, so go along with it! --IJzeren Jan 14:07, 30 November 2005 (PST)

Hello from Ziba

I guess, the only good thing I can create, it is military sci-fi/alternative ranks and uniforms concepts. However, here my specialty more on Russia and affilliate states/societies.

Thank you, Ziba.

New proposal template


After some tweaking, I've finally found a way to add a the date on which a proposal was submitted to the proposal template. As it turns out, the solution was not at all that complicated. It's just a matter of creating a sub-template.

Anyway, to use it, you must type {{subst:prop}}. It is necessary that you don't forget the subst, because otherwise the template will always show the current date (and the proposal, so to say, will never expire). But if you use it properly, the template will look like this:

This article is a proposal

It has not been ratified and therefore the information on this page is not protected by QSS.
You are welcome to correct errors and/or express your opinion at the Discussion Page.
This proposal has been submitted on December 3, 2005.
Unless anyone objects, it will be considered an established fact one month after that.

--IJzeren Jan 04:28, 3 December 2005 (PST)

Actually, it seems you have to type proposal_with_date|Month day, year or your proposal is automatically dated December 3rd. Zahir 21:18, 4 December 2005 (PST)
I've noticed that. Drat! Well, I'm afraid that means automatically putting a timestamp in a template (referring to the moment when it was placed) is simply impossible. If you use subst, you get the date when the template was created, but if you don't use it, it means that you always see the current date. Okay, that leaves us no other possibility than to add the date manually. I've chosen a temporary solution for now: you type {{subst:prop}}, and then you get the following:
{{proposal with date |
|month =
|day =
|year =
After that, you have to edit the page a second time and fill the required fields.
Of course, there is also another way of doing this. I can simply do it in such way, that you have to type prop|December 5, 2005. That way, you avoid the problem that you have to edit the page twice.
But, there is also a third possibility: that we drop the whole idea altogether and return to the old {{proposal}} tag. I was looking for a way to add the date to the template automatically, but since that doesn't seem to be possible, it might not be worth the effort. Any opinions?
--IJzeren Jan 03:58, 5 December 2005 (PST)
I like the dated version, I think we should keep it, and I like having to enter in the date, and that way we know when something is done being a proposal.
I like having the date there, a lot. And I for one think the elbow grease involved in actually adding the date hardly adds up to a visible drop of the stuff. Let us keep the dated proposal! Zahir 07:53, 5 December 2005 (PST)
So I agree, we'll have a dated proposal. Leave open the question what you prefer: one with two edits (like in the example above), or one in which you have to type prop|December 5, 2005? --IJzeren Jan 09:59, 5 December 2005 (PST)
My vote is for prop|December 5, 2005 That seems a LOT easier than the other way. Nik 19:11, 5 December 2005 (PST)
I suppose there's no real reason not to have both, too. I'm wondering if we should have a "proposal-section" template Nik 13:10, 7 December 2005 (PST)
A little simplification would be good, I think. I have been experimenting a little with the advanced code used in some templates in Wikipedia.en (with IF statements and the like), but somehow it doesn't seem to work here. Could that be a version problem? Anyway, the purpose was to make the date field optional. If you don't type a date, you get the current {{proposal}}, if you do type it, then you get the whole sentence. I suppose that if I can make it work, it would also become possible to create automatic insertion of the date.
As for a "proposal-section" template: well, I've mixed feelings about that. It would certainly be appropriate and look good, but on the other hand, do we really need it? My general point of view is that templates and the like are a nice addition to the rest of our work, but we shouldn't focus too much on that kind of stuff. If you want me to be véry honest, I think we can do away with quite a few of the templates we're having now, anyway. Besides, I am a little hesitant when it comes to making our wiki look like a Wikipedia emulation; in my view, we shouldn't even want that - let this wiki be our repository, and let it be our discussion forum, but IMO we really should avoid making everything look like WP.
I also think some of our templates would deserve to be rewritten. A little more conlangy, perhaps. A little more Brithenig! :) [JvS]

Persia Again

The page on Persia is pretty much finished now. As such, I'd be grateful for feedback, alterations, contributions and suggestions, particularly with regard to the flag and the Iran-`Iraaq war. Thanks! Deiniol 10:37, 4 December 2005 (PST)

"Qajar" is probabbly Arabic in origin, being spelled with Q. Maybe "Kâmyâr" instead? BPJ 14:11, 4 December 2005 (PST)
The Qajars were Muslim, so having an Arabic name isn't unreasonable. Deiniol 15:56, 4 December 2005 (PST)
I've already offered something of a suggestion about Iraaq (and shouldn't that be the Persian-Iraaqi War?). Zahir 14:12, 4 December 2005 (PST)</nowiki>

The question on Persian script

I have finally got the computer out of the service of Real Work and the clutches of the kids long enough t6o read the Persia article carefully. My comments (mostly onomastic/terminological nitpicks I'm afraid) will hopefully be forthcomming on Talk:Persia tomorrow. -- In the meantime I'd like to have a stab at the question how and why modern Persian *there* may be written in Avestan script, if Deiniol doesn't mind. BPJ 11:58, 5 December 2005 (PST)

How about they had used another script (arabic for example) for a while but readopted "the true ancestral" script as part of a nationalist-pride push following the white revolution ? It could even be a modernised version of it: from what my wife told me, it doesn't perfectly fit with modern persian (neither does arabic but that a different story).--Marc Pasquin 16:32, 5 December 2005 (PST)

It is an old observation that choice of script follows religion. I don't think that Zoroastrians would ever use Arabic script. Compare the Jews *here* who used Hebrew script to write Arabic and Persian, but borrowed the Arabic diacritical marks to distinguish consonants that didn't have their own sign in the Hebrew alphabet, such as /dZ/ from /g/, /f/ and /p/ from each other. -- BPJ 13:29, 8 December 2005 (PST)

Introducing myself


My name is Rickard Linder and I come from Östersund, Sweden (*there* it would be Østersund, Norway, Scandinavian Realm). I am currently studying biotechnology in Trondheim, Norway. Among others I am very interested in maps, flags, coat of arms and languages. The fascinating world of Ill Bethisad of course touches all of these interests and ever since I discovered it I can not stop my curiousity to find out more about it.

Since four years back I have had a special interest in Romania and the Romanian language and even though not evering in IB would seem very favourable from a Romanian point of view (Romanians not having resisted the Ottoman turks, Transilvania never having been a part of Romania and so on) it is still so interesting to for example see the existance of a relative strong nation (Dalmatia) with a language clearly reminding of Romanian.

I will be following with exitement the development of this project and I will be honored to make my contribution to the expanding of knowledge regarding the reality of Ill Bethisad!

First of all I would be focusing on the Romanian Federation (and the three countries it consists of). My main area of contribition would be geography and administrative divison. I'm currently making a map of the RF that will among others show the administrate division of the three countries. Based on my map and the information I have available I will will expanding the information on these countries. I also have ideas for maps of other countries that I will be developing later on.

RoMex 05:50, 5 December 2005 (PST)

Welcome! Or did I already say that somewhere else before? Anyway, a short word about Romania's status in IB. It is not really owned by anybody, so I guess you can have some free space there, but it Ferko Váloczy is more or less in charge of the whole Balkans, so any work he did on Romania has to be respected (most of that can be found on his Dalmatia web pages and on FOIB). Virtually all that's known about the Romanias is in the wiki, I think. David has recently done some work on Oltenia, which technically gives him the first rights; if he is willing to cooperate with you, then there's no problem there either. For the rest: two people are currently working on IB Romanian orthography (Sergei Lazarev and Jesse Bangs). This discussion does not take place here on the wiki, but some messages on the subject have been sent to the Conculture list. I would suggest you to join the Conculture list anyway (you can do so here) in case you haven't already: nowadays, most of the IB related discussion take place here, but not all of it, and virtually all discussions and established facts from before Feb. 2005 are in the group archive.
Sooo, let's hear what your ideas are about Romania. I'd love to see your map. And, have fun!
Cheers, IJzeren Jan 07:33, 5 December 2005 (PST)
Welcome! What he said. I've kinda taken it upon myself to start work on Oltenia but I'm looking forward to your imput as well! In essence the Oltenian thing came about when I simply posted a coat of arms I'd designed and said "Okay, whose are these do you think?" And the consensus was "The Prince of Oltenia." And someone else suggested the fun idea that Oltenia's princeley sigil, instead of being an eagle or lion or some such, would be a bat! Which I ran with. I did make a proposal about the Romanian Federation's government, but I'm not emotionally attached to it at all. Please feel free to modify or scrap it. Zahir 08:03, 5 December 2005 (PST)
First, det är mycket bra har en andra Svensk här! (And I apologize for my swedish, I'm only a 100 level student in college.) I'm not Swedish myself, but I love the language, and we actually have one of our members in Goteborg. Welcome, settle in, get used to the little QSS that does exist for your desired areas, and propose away! Looks like I'll have to expand the membership map! I hope you don't mind, but I've moved your fine greeting and introduction to your membership page. BoArthur
Whats a "100 level student" ? (hi Rickard) --Marc Pasquin 16:32, 5 December 2005 (PST)
There I go being americo-centric again. The US Collegiate system lists first year classes as 100-199 or 1000-1999, second year as 200-299 or 2000-2999 and so on. Sorry!BoArthur 16:52, 5 December 2005 (PST)
Hej! Hur är läget? I'm glad to hear you like my language! Nice to see I'm actually not the only Swede here. No, I don't mind at all my introduction having been moved. I will be happy to be proposing all ideas that will be coming to my mind and I'm glad to be a part of this project! RoMex 16:16, 6 December 2005 (PST)

Välkommen till lekstugan! Kristian och jag vill naturligtvis gärna höra din ärliga mening om Riksmål! -- BPJ 12:01, 5 December 2005 (PST)

Riksmål tycker jag ser ut som ett mycket interesant språk som jag gärna skulle vilja lära mig mer om! Finns det listor med grundläggande ord eller exempel på texter skrivna på riksmål någonstans? RoMex 16:16, 6 December 2005 (PST)
Cor, a translation exercise with which to try my mastery of this here German...
"Well, come on to the mess hall! Christian and I will naturally go on for hours dining on many, um, Smallrice dishes!"
"Smallrice, tsk, I'll see I eat some muckle more interesting. Speaking somewhat, I can go for a skillet. Will ye learn me to mere? Hm, Finns on the List aren't half grumbling over all the examples of texts and alphabets and too much Smallrice on their noggin stones?"
That's hilarious, Padriac!
Ta! It's fun, and sómeone has to render all this into a sensible tongue! ;))) After all, I slogged away for five years to get the degree in Spanish -- but here's all this German and it is just so easy!
Rickard, velkomen hit! Du kan finne Kongeſangen, ſkrevet på Riksmål, hær. Hvad angår grundlæggende Ord, hves du har en etymologiſk Ordbok, ſvå kan du rekne mange af Ordene fram efter Reglerne hær.
Ricardo welcomes it! You can find King Kong scrievet upon small rice grains here. What angers and makes me grumble most, what do you have to do to get an etymological cookbook? Ivan, can you reckon if I can order after from Regilearn here?
Boreanesia 08:15, 7 December 2005 (PST)
It is of course also a good idea to have an Icelandic dictionary, but as such are expensive... BPJ 13:33, 8 December 2005 (PST)


I have put up a proposed history of Lùquiù, to explain why it was never annexed as *here*, and how it came to include the Amami Islands. The proposal affects the Federated Kingdoms. Nik 02:21, 7 December 2005 (PST)

Though I'm sure the FK would miss the contact in the region, I don't see anything particularly upsetting in the proposal. You'ld have to devise a reason as to why the FK would terminate their relationship in Lookyoo. Not that I'm complaining! Elemtilas
What I had in mind was that the initial relationship with Luquiu was aimed at opening up Japan. Commodore Perry *here* advocated the annexation of Ryukyu for much the same reason. Once a productive relationship with Japan had been established, Luquiu would lose its importance to the FK. I see it more as an understanding between the FK, Luquiu, and Japan, basicaly Japan would take up the protectorate duties. Nik 22:04, 7 December 2005 (PST)


I will be away from the computer for the next 3 weeks starting now so try not to invade New Francy until early january.

If I'm not back by february, sell my IB's assests and use the money to pay for Pr. Langevin's legal defence (you should see what his next book is about....)

See you guys soon. --Marc Pasquin 06:21, 7 December 2005 (PST)

Well, in that case let me wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year in advance, as well as a lot of creativity between them, before them ánd after them! (... and, I hope you'll make it back before February... ). --IJzeren Jan 07:00, 7 December 2005 (PST)
Dang it! I was just working up the secret voyage from Louisianna to take it all down! That's why Louisianne's been buying all those Spretu fighters and Tanks from Japan! And I so wanted to do up a picture of the guillotine being used on the Intendant and his family! :: sigh :: Marc, you always ruin my fun. :C Happy Holidays, mon ami.
I guess you'll just have to wait a little bit longer Nik 13:08, 7 December 2005 (PST)


Hello! I am Seth Parsons of Jefferson City, Missouri, or *there* Lyons-sur-Mizouri, d'Osage, Louisianne. i recently found this site, and am very intrigued. I have been reading into this for about 10 hours, and I am amazed at how thorough the thought and how vivid an idea it is. I really like it. I am, if you please, going to bounce around the site some more, maybe come up with some ideas. Also, I tried to watch the Ill Bethisad movie, but it won't let me. Keep up with the great work, and I will try to come up with some ideas for *there.*

Oh goody! Fresh MEAT! Er...that is...um...Hi, Seth. Welcome! Zahir 17:39, 8 December 2005 (PST)
In any case, welcome! Hope you'll have fun with our stuff. If you have any ideas, now or in the future, don't hesitate to spill them!
As for the movie: you may simply have to download it first, then open Windows Media Player separately, and open the movie from there. That worked for me, anyway. --IJzeren Jan 02:58, 10 December 2005 (PST)
One minor correction, Citoyen Parsons, you're from the fine capital of Paris-sur-Mizouri actually! It's good to find more citizens of our fine nation of Louisianne interested in the project! BoArthur 09:36, 10 December 2005 (PST)


So, we're under a heavy spam attack again! This one is even nastier, because the spambots apparently use different IPs all the time. They even created two user names (Pizdovanec and Pizdovan, both containing the word pizda, which in several Slavic languages is the word for a certain part of the female body). I don't even know if blocking all these IPs even makes sense! Anyway, most of the time they create Talk pages for categories, and these can simply be deleted. Sometimes they use existing articles, in which case a rollback is required. I hope this is not going to carry on much longer, because it evokes unpleasant memories of the last few weeks when we were still using Joe's wiki. If this continues, we might reconsider our policy and switch to only-registered-users-can-edit after all. --IJzeren Jan 14:38, 11 December 2005 (PST)

Yikes! That was bad! How would we go about changing to that mode? Nik 16:34, 11 December 2005 (PST)
Eeek! Again!? Zahir 18:00, 11 December 2005 (PST)
You say Eek! I had to go in and block and revert it all! I've e-mailed Muke about a way to stop the attacks. BoArthur 20:10, 11 December 2005 (PST)
Pizdovanec and Pizdovan looks like an evil joke on my conlang. Roast them! BPJ 04:32, 12 December 2005 (PST)
With pickles? --IJzeren Jan

We are under attack again. I've already reverted the pages that already had something on them. Zahir 17:21, 12 December 2005 (PST)

Only registered users can edit?

So, there was another attack last night, eh? Very unpleasant! What I find particularly disturbing is that the spambots are even able to create user names now. I have to say that I'm not very much in favour of the only-registered-users-can-edit option, but if this continues I don't think there is another way out! Do others agree? --IJzeren Jan 02:29, 12 December 2005 (PST)

Yes, let us protect the IB pages, if the attacks do not stop soon. Let us have a free, unblocked "meeting page", where newcomers may start to discuss and where the spam can be deleted easilly. Spammers suck :-/ -- Jan II.
Muke set to only-registered-users-can-edit mode on FrathWiki several weeks ago, and AFAIK all for the better. Let's go for it. BPJ 04:30, 12 December 2005 (PST)
I always seem to arrive late to these fun little staff meetings (though I must admit even I was able to revert one page not long ago!!). I concur: let's switch to restricted editing. I don't prefer it, so let's not dismiss the possiblity of reverting back to open editing in the Spring or early Summer. Elemtilas 15:09, 12 December 2005 (PST)

Actually, there are indeed two possibilities. Only-registered-users-can-edit is the easiest solution, because it is just a switch Muke will have to use. But AFAIK there's no way of making exceptions to certain pages. It also doesn't protect us from spambots using a username, although it's of course easier to block those.

Jan II's solution is possible, too, but it requires a lot of work. First of all, we need to protect all pages (except perhaps for Lla Dafern and a few others), and subsequently (or rather before that) áll IB members need to be raised to the status of sysops, otherwise they won't be able to make edits either. --IJzeren Jan 05:10, 12 December 2005 (PST)

And then once one of the Spammers gets Sysop status, all he has to do is unsysopify all the rest of us and completely highjack the whole Wiki. Infrigida ad extremum! Elemtilas
Protecting all pages, though, doesn't prevent bots from creating new ones. Is allowing anonymous editing of pages such as Lla Dafern really necessary? The user creation process is not unduly arduous... —Muke Tever | 07:51, 12 December 2005 (PST)
I agree. It should certainly discourage many spammers and impose no real burden on anyone interested in taking part. Zahir 07:58, 12 December 2005 (PST)
Indeed. Well, let me be clear about the fact that protecting all pages wouldn't be my favourite solution either. As for the other possibility: let's wait one more day and see what happens. If the attacks continue, then I agree that we should protect the entire wiki from anonymous editing. --IJzeren Jan 08:13, 12 December 2005 (PST)
I couldn't fail to disagree with you less. Even though I know next to nothing about the technicalities involved, I expressly vote for protection against editing by non-registered users. One can't even have fun any more!!! Kyrmse 10:36, 12 December 2005 (PST)
After spending ten minutes trying to figure out that first sentence, I gave up and had a drink. Just thought you'd like to know. 'tis a Monday. Zahir 10:57, 12 December 2005 (PST)
It's one of those funny English sentences where you know what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense! Elemtilas
I vote for registered users only. I think most members register their updates so their authority is recorded. I suspect it is normally an oversight when a member does not, so this would help us get into good practice. It looks like these spam attacks are coming in waves, like clowns - AndrewSmith 19:41, 12 December 2005 (PST) (on a tuesday)
Except that clowns are usually a lot nicer to look at!
Okay, it looks like last night has been a particularly bad one. Looking a the various comments, I don't think anyone objects against the registered-members-only option anymore. I certainly don't! Muke, if you are reading this, will you please pull the trigger? ;) --IJzeren Jan 22:44, 12 December 2005 (PST)
Done. Hope it helps. —Muke Tever | 23:37, 12 December 2005 (PST)
Mucho obrigado, señor! Gratias ago tibi, o Myces Tiberine! --IJzeren Jan 23:50, 12 December 2005 (PST)

I am against such protection; if there would have been such protection in place by the time I came I would probably not have done edits and thus wouldn't be a member now (as I done some edits as anonymous, only then decided to register). I believe we could loose potential contributors this way. I think the best solution would be to create a bot which would automatically check every new edit (there aren't that much edis on IB wiki) and automatically revert it in case it sees certain URLs (it seems the spammers are constantly adding the same URLs) or typical spambot sentences. It wouldn't be hard to upgrade this bot if spambots would start to type some new links, and as well each of the spam edits would not have to be reverted manually. Abdul-aziz 06:07, 13 December 2005 (PST)

If such a Robot can be made (of which I am quite ignorant) then I am all for it! Zahir 06:19, 13 December 2005 (PST)
I understand, and appreciate, your point, Abdul-Aziz. And indeed, if there would have been another way of doing this I'd be all for it. But the solution you propose has a quite a few disadvantages as well. First of all, I don't know who of us would be able to create and operate such a robot, and even then, I wouldn't happily rely on bots; I would feel compelled to check every single bot operation anyway. But more importantly, it would mean that we keep allowing those spambots creating and/or editing pages. Now, I, and I'm sure most of us, navigate mainly via the "Recent changes", and that becomes pretty hard and unpleasant if you constantly have to search for "real" edits between hundreds of spambot edits, blocking messages, deleted spambot-created articles, etc. We would constantly be busy protecting and unprotecting pages. Frankly, I've had enough of that! I'd much rather spend my IB time writing a news article or creating a nice table than constantly countering spam attacks.
Like I said, I'd much rather stick to the old situation. But the way it looks now, that's pretty much impossible, and I have serious doubts about your bot idea. Besides, creating a login name is not that hard at all. In fact, if you look at the user list you can see several users who never made a single edit (but who perhaps keep track of certain articles via their watchlist). Certainly, some IB members have started their carreers as anonymous contributors. But tell me honestly: if you, while trying to make your first edit, had gotten a "you need to login first" message, wouldn't you simply have created a user name first? --IJzeren Jan 06:47, 13 December 2005 (PST)
I just lost what I typed here due to the new rule lol (it seems that it logouts automatically after some time and thus if you are typing something long then it will logoff when you'll be typing and you'll loose all what you have typed when you click "submit"; it happened so to me now. To avoid that copy everything before clicking "Submit"). I brief, what I said was that this measure will not prevent spambots from coming; as you have seen already it is not hard to reprogram them so that they would register a random username and then edit, which was already done. While bot could revert such edits as well; in order to avoid problems with the clogging of "Special:Recent Changes" if there would be a bot a solution would be to create a separate article, e.g. "Recent Changes" (without "Special") where the bot would automatically list every edit it checked and not reverted. As for creating such bot, it is definitely possible, there are many bots writting and correcting information and such in Wikipedia, which uses same MediaWiki system. As for exactly how to write one, there should be resources online and as well members of Wikipedia who owns bots could help maybe. Then agaion, it is just a suggestion of course Abdul-aziz 09:20, 13 December 2005 (PST)
A few moments ago I (absent-mindedly) tried to edit without logging in, and lo and behold! it didn't work (as it shouldn't). OK, so that's that. About my opening phrase of yesterday (I couldn't fail to disagree with you less), I beg to differ from Elemtilas when he says "It's one of those funny English sentences where you know what he's saying, but it doesn't make any sense!". Sense it dóes make, to wit: It contains four negatives (couldn't, fail, disagree and less), which makes it equivalent to I agree! Kyrmse 07:13, 13 December 2005 (PST)
I haven't finished my first cup of coffee this morning so I didn't follow any of that. <wink> Zahir 07:21, 13 December 2005 (PST)
First of all, I understand that your original sentence was somewhat tongue in cheek. However, it doesn't contain "four negatives" -- there's only one expression of negation in there. Also, English polynegatives don't work like Latin grammar would have you believe. "I ain't got no bananas" does NOT mean "I have some bananas" (unless you're stuck in a prescriptivist grammar book!). They try to teach us otherwise in school, but in real English, it means "I have no bananas", no matter how many negatives you stack in there.
And my point is not that you don't agree at all, but that you are assigning a sort of continuum of (dis)agreement and that your X is at neither end of that continuum. "I couldn't fail to" means "I absolutely do..." (I couldn't fail to notice -- It never fails that... etc); while "disagree with you less" means something like "sort of agree but am not quite convinced enough to go one way or the other". In other words, I agree that you're agreeing -- just that your agreement is a bit wishy-washy! ;) Enjoy yer coffee Dave! Perhaps we should join thee!
Now, Ron, one more thing -- I thought you were going to be away from us this month! Have you become President of Brasil yet or whatever it was you were studying for (I never did find out, exactly!)? Elemtilas 15:35, 13 December 2005 (PST)
Oh well, I'll sort out your comments on my "I couldn't fail..." when I have the time. Right now I'm studying to become a federal civil servant (nót President; rather something in the Finance Ministry). Tests will be on Saturday the 17th & Sunday the 18th, so wish me luck. Nothing of this, of course, keeps me from looking in now and then and putting in my 2 sulti's worth... Kyrmse 08:14, 14 December 2005 (PST)
Ah, finance minister! Well, that ain't bad either. Always comes in handy! ;) Anyway, good luck to you! --IJzeren Jan 09:10, 14 December 2005 (PST)
I don't know -- I think "President Ronald Kyrmse" has a nice ring to it! Don't worry about my "I couldn't fail..." comments -- not thát important!! Good luck indeed on your exams! Tests on Saturday and Sunday? How many different exams are there, or is it just one big test broken up among different days? (I used to be a test proctor, so find the process interesting.) While we certainly appreciate your looking in on the goings on, please don't let IB get in the way of your study time! Elemtilas 10:55, 15 December 2005 (PST)
We have about 80,000 candidates for 1,000 openings nationwide, for Federal Revenue Fiscal Auditor. Even here in São Paulo, there are going to be many test sites. We're going to be tested as follows (hope I translate the subjects right!):
  • Saturday 14:00-18:30h - Constitutional Law, Administrative Law, General Bookkeeping
  • Sunday 09:00-12:00h - Tributary Law, Previdentiary Law, International Public Law & International Trade, Economics & Public Finance
  • Sunday 14:00-18:00h - Portuguese, English [in my case - could also be Spanish or French], Financial Mathematics & Statistics, Computing
So here I go! Kyrmse 06:44, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Persian script proposal

I have written a new proposal on Persian script. Hopefully this will lead to the dispute tag being removed. Please leave your comments at Talk:Persian. Description of the modern writing system is to follow. BPJ 06:32, 12 December 2005 (PST)

South East Asia

I am Christophe Gibbs, my user name here is metrovania

I'd like to discuss whether or not it would be possible to change the history of South East Asia.

I was looking through all the fascinating histories in this amazing alternate universe and decided to check out the region I live in *here* (SEA). I was sorely disappointed by the cop-out that is the history of the region; Filipinas (Philippines), Bornei (Borneo) and part of what would be Indonesia joining together!! This is shocking!!

Firstly, it's lazy; the person who wrote the section probably had limited knowledge of the region so rather than find some interesting areas for divergence (which I shall get to in a moment) he/she simply made the whole thing up without ever touching upon *real* history in any concrete sense.

Secondly, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the world; the divergence in SEA from the *actual* events takes place well before almost anywhere else in the world - on the timeline, the earliest point is completely made-up, making an actual point of divergence hard to pin-point.

Thirdly, it's unrealistic; the idea that a region so diverse could end up as one nation demonstrates a loose grasp of "reality"... I mean no offence to anyone, but feel that more thought should have been placed into making the history plausible.

Fourthly, it's boring; I find that, with so many clever and intriguing twists on world history that can be found here, the alternate history of South East Asia sticks out like a sore, uninteresting, thumb.

Finally, it's a missed opportunity; here are some examples of more interesting points of divergence and possible alternate histories for the region:

- Brunei (or possibly, Bruni, seeing as Brunei is a name that developed after the state became a British protectorate *here* and that does not seem to have happened *there*) should remain independent. However, in 1962, when the elections are held I feel that the Brunei (Bruni) Parti Rakyat (Bruneian [Brunese] Peoples' Party) should end up taking control (just as they would were the Brits not involved). This would lead to Bruni being a nation of millionaires; a successful communist state.

- Sarawak should be under Brooke control (with the history of the Nation leading up to the handover to the white rajahs remaining as it is *here*) however, in 1946, the nation should not join the equivalent of the British Empire and should remain independent. This would act as the odd nation out in Asia; one ran by Europeans but utterly independent.

- The Malayan peninsular should play an active role in this history; it should create a Federation of Malay States. It could have strained ties with the Pandonesia and Filipinas (more on them later).

- What is Indonesia *here* should get independence (partial or absolute) from Batavia, Sukarno should exist and his dream of creation a Pandonesia should, at least partially, be realized. North Bornei (what is Sabah *here* should join Pandonesia)

- Filipinas should maintain control of the island east of Bornei as this could be a major bone of contention between the two nations.

These are just suggestions and you, by no means, have to take heed of them... but I believe that they are more "realistic" with reference the cultural and ethnic divisions that exist in the region, as well as being simply more interesting and in-tune with the rest of the universe.

Metrovania 11:31, 13 December 2005 (PST)

Firstly, I really resent being called lazy and ignorant with regards to my work on SEAsia!! I am Filipino and grew up in and around SEAsia. I did a lot of research too. The history is not entirely made up. The history of SEAsia as I have written it is based on precolonial accounts *here*, mainly Chinese and Javanese sources. These were not exactly easy to find! Obviously, since the POD is so early in history, there are many holes to what we know of pre-colonial SEAsia, and a lot of it is conjecture. Filling in the gaps is a necessity.
Secondly, I don't see why you think IB SEAsian history does not fit in with the rest of IB. You seem to think that the lack of a specific POD is a problem. But the tenuous info we have about the unrecorded pre-colonial history of SEAsia simply means that it would be impossible to specify a precise POD for SEAsia so early on in history. Furthermore, although IB's most important POD goes back to Roman age Europe, IB is indeed a place with multiple divergences in various places throughout the world, making it even more difficult to pinpoint an exact POD for SEAsia.
Thirdly, I don't find it unrealistic within the framework of IB. Keep in mind that IB is, in many respect, a very different place from our world. SEAsia is not as diverse as *here*. Asian states in IB centralized their rule much earlier than they did *here*. As a consequence, the diversity you find *here*, is not as prevalent *there*. SEAsia is more like Europe or China in that regard.
Fourthly, I did not write up the history in order to cure any boredom that you might have. I focused entirely on keeping within the framework of IB, and conforming with QSS and respecting what Roger has established for SEAsia.
Finally, when writing up the history, you have to work within IB's framework and not violate QSS. While your ideas are interesting, they would all violate it.
Boreanesia 10:37, 13 December 2005 (PST)
Definitely not lazy. SE Asia strikes me as one of the most thoroughly-researched, hardest-though-about parts of IB Nik 20:24, 13 December 2005 (PST)
Christophe, it's not nice to call names here in IB. What helps things run smoothly here is that we keep the name calling to ourselves. I know you only called Kristian lazy, but to call any of us lazy here is quite offensive as those of us who have written articles here are well informed on our topics. If you want to call names and be insulting, IB is simply not the place for you and not the way you'll endear yourself to anyone.
That said, how is what Kristian wrote lazy? How does it not fit in with IB? How is your proposal any less boring than Kristian's? I find his proposal incredibly interesting, as well as what Roger Mills has written on what is there's area that is here's Malaysia and Indonesia. How is keeping the two pre-Muslim states in insular SE Asia boring? I frankly don't agree (the point is, this is all subjective, what you find boring, a lot of find incredibly interesting). You're going to have to give an incredibly convincing reason for changing QSS (what is written here IS QSS whether you like it or not).
I'm going to be honest here, I simply don't like what you've proposed only because it doesn't fit within the framework of QSS on this region. It's up to you to be convincing, *maybe* you'll change my mind if you can be. If you can't play along and be nice, you might not find it very fun here. Doobieous 17:32, 13 December 2005 (PST)
Thanks, Nik and Barry, for the compliments!
Christophe, please do not feel discouraged if your proposals are not accepted. It is not easy being a newbie because there is a hell of a lot of material you'll have to look through (not only in this wiki, but also the Conculture archives and various websites) before you can make your proposals entirely compatible with IB. So don't be afraid to ask questions. If you come up with compatible proposals, they will almost certainly be accepted.
Boreanesia 10:50, 14 December 2005 (PST)

Recent Spam

It seems that the recent spam bots are favoring Talk pages and things of that nature, placing HTML code on them for their own sick purposes. I've deleted that information and then protected them. I think that his is th ebest way, blank out EVERYTHING that htey've ut on and hten having one of the bureaucrats protecting them so that the spam bot can't do it anymore. [DH]

Honestly, I don't even understand the point they are making, because the HTML code they place on these pages don't even show up.
Anyway, our new login-before-editing solution seems to help indeed. We got one of those fake users, but blocking him seems to do the trick. The problem hasn't been solved yet, but I have to say this is a huge improvement anyway.
I have no objection against blanking out talk pages and protecting them. It's not my favourite solution, but if it helps, then let's do it. I'm less happy about blanking out Dacian and Congress of Vienna, because they are in our article space. For the time being, let's keep them blanked and protected, but at some point I hope to delete them anyway.
What I'm curious about is how Wikipedia handles this problem. After all, links to WP are about everywhere. Any google search is likely to produce a wikipedia entry in the Top-10 of matches. Since I don't see this kind of spam in the Recent Changes there, I wonder how they protect themselves against spambots.
Yes we definitely have to find out how Wikipedia protects itself. Is there anywhere one can ask? BPJ
And another question I'm asking myself: how have they found us? As I recall, we have carefully avoid placing links to this wiki in popular places like Wikipedia. So what directs those spambots to us?
--IJzeren Jan 01:03, 14 December 2005 (PST)
As for the latter, I have just removed links from wikipedia.es, wikipedia.nl and wikipedia.cs. Nik deleted a hidden link in wikipedia.en. Maybe that will help! --IJzeren Jan 01:40, 14 December 2005 (PST)
I have removed all links from FrathWiki. Most of them due to myself I'm afraid. BPJ 04:15, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Gay Rights

Just a tiny head's up that I was going to develop some of the Gay Rights Movement a bit into a proposal. One tiny detail--the pink triangle is of course not in any way a symbol that means anything *there* so I'll be using the Green Carnation. It was used as a sigil of sympathy about the time of Oscar Wilde's trial for sodomy. There's probably a Green Carnation Party in some places. But if anyone has their own thoughts on this subject, I for one am eager to hear'em. Zahir 21:18, 14 December 2005 (PST)

I like the green carnation. Maybe there can be others? We also have the "lambda" which I think can still apply there (since it doesn't have associations with the non-existent *there* holocaust and Nazi Germany). Perhaps even the symbol for Uranus could be used perhaps with some slight alteration, as it appears like an H (which could stand for "Homosexuality") pierced by a "spear" connected to a ring. I've read that the word "uranian" was used to describe those with same sex desires (well, at least men, since this term comes from Plato's usage). Doobieous 21:56, 14 December 2005 (PST)
Did some research. Although it is known that the Lambda began to be used by the Gay Community following the Stonewall Riots (which in some form or other need to have happened), exactly why it was chosen remains a mystery. Odd, since that is within living memory. But there you go. I'll also look up "Uranian" although methinks that is really an opening (pardon the pun) for a lot of tasteless jokes. Like that one. Zahir 08:54, 15 December 2005 (PST)
Just remember that the planet Uranus is called differently *there*. See Astronomy. --IJzeren Jan 11:30, 15 December 2005 (PST)
Some of the meanings: The Greek Spartans believed that the lambda represented unity. The Romans took it as meaning "the light of knowledge shining into the darkness of ignorance. If you believe the various gay symbols pages. In IB the "tasteless jokes" wouldn't be a real issue since American English isn't the dominant cultural and linguistic dialect even of English. Doobieous 15:32, 15 December 2005 (PST)

I'm Sikulu

Hi, I'm Sikulu. Some of you may remember me from the Althist Wiki. I'm still waiting for Marc Pasquin to get back to me on the discussion for his own althist.

Well, here's an official welcome then! I see you have quite a state of service there. My eye somehow immediately fell on your List of Premiers of Russia (Here we go again). It looks like you plan quite a different role for Admiral Kolchak then I did in IB (see Kolchak)! One question: why did you write "Pyotr Poliakoff" that way? It's a typical example of French popular transcription, while everywhere else you use the English system. Unless the bloke was an émigré or something, I'd change it to "Pyotr Polyakov" in your place. "Polyakov", BTW, is a name that would of course not exist in IB; the equivalent would probably be "Venedov"!
So, are you interested in contributing to IB?
The name "Sikulu" somehow has an African sound. Where do you live? Don't hesitate to tell us a bit more about yourself...
Cheers, IJzeren Jan 01:48, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Actualy, I just made the name up. My real name is Llywelyn Jones, and I live in Holyhead, Wales (or, *there* Castrecybi (or whatever its called), Kemr). Thanks for the heads-up on the Polyakoff (bit of a typo). Also, Kolchak went into politics after retiring from the navy to join a quasi-SNORist party (thanks to IB for the inspiration by the way). As for contributing articles, sign me up and I'll see what I can do (I've mostly been imparting my wisdom all over the place). For more info on me, any more wisdom I could impart, or for just a chat, visit my Talk Page. P.S. look up For I have seen many worlds. It contains links to all five (yes five) althists that I have on the go at the moment. --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 13:20 (GMT).
Hehe, I'm glad that the SNOR could inspire you. As it turns out, it's one of the bits in IB that attract most attention from outside. BTW, I've seen (some of) your althists over there. Quite an impressive amount of work! If you need any help regarding the Netherlands or Eastern Europe, don't hesitate to ask me.
Okay, we'll sign you up. Whatever you should choose to do in the future, "Asker of Questions" would be an appropriate epitheton for now. Mind, that's a good thing: it keeps us awake, forces to think twice about our own ideas, and inspires us for new ones. Welcome again. --IJzeren Jan 06:30, 16 December 2005 (PST)
'Rocketh on man'. Seriously, I'm absolutely obsessive with the research for my Althists (all hail Encarta and Britanica). I'm glad I could help you out. Therefore 'Asker of Questions' I shall be until something else comes up. By the way, in Here we go again, I've come up with a quite interesting way of making the Netherlands keep Belgium and Luxembourg. (Have you seen that part?) --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 15:23(GMT).
I've seen that the Netherlands keep Belgium and Luxemburg, but not how that came about. --IJzeren Jan 07:50, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Basically, a king of Belgium is installed (like *here*), but the ruler of the Netherlands remains as High-Sovereign over the entire Netherlands. This continues after a new Grand Duke of Luxembourg is found (who also regards the ruler of the Netherlands as High-Sovereign). Both Belgium and Luxembourg remain a part of the Netherlands. So, the Netherlands becomes a bit like the FK *there*, but with one sovereign having overlordship over the other two. --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 15:54(GMT).

I'm going off for the Christmas Holidays, and I don't have Internet access at home, so I don't know when I'll be able to post again. Bye. --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 16:21 (GMT)

Have a nice trip. I'll be leaving tomorrow morning. Happy Holidays! Zahir 08:55, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Hello, I'm back again. (I only went home. I was posting from University). Could anyone check out the Recent Changes page, only I'm waiting for someone to reply to my posts. --Sikulu 19 December 2005, 14:50 (GMT)

Hi Sikulu. Forgive me for not replying much if at all to your flurry of posts. I keenly appreciate the effort you have already devoted here, but generally your questions and comments have been outside my own areas of knowledge. I am a relatively "new hand" in IB. Hope your trip was nice. I'm posting this from my brother's house (in [[Montrei[[). Will be getting back home Friday night if all things go well (my train coming up here was 3 and 1/2 hours late leaving). Happy Holidays, and I look forward to giving your posts more attention and seeing if there is anything I have to add. Zahir 07:32, 20 December 2005 (PST)

The CMAEC was the only one I could answer. Your suggestion for Germany is interesting, but I'll leave that one for Kristian and Jan II to answer. And since Kristian has left for the Philippines for a while, I think we better wait until he returns. --IJzeren Jan 07:05, 19 December 2005 (PST)
What do you think for my idea for the Netherlands in Here we go again? --Sikulu 19 December 2005, 15:05 (GMT)
Looks fine to me! How did that situation come about? --IJzeren Jan 07:24, 19 December 2005 (PST)
Ever read the althist "Decades of Darkness"? I adapted their idea for the Netherlands a bit. --Sikulu 19 December 2005, 15:25 (GMT)

I've been thinking more about the CMAEC's membership structure; if IJzeren Jan could post on that talk page, I'd be happy to disscuss them. --Sikulu 20 December 2005, 14:23 (GMT)

Well, propose away, I'd say! --IJzeren Jan 08:55, 20 December 2005 (PST)

Soviet vs. Socialist

What's with the extreame use of the word "Soviet" in the names of (quite a few) countries, most of which were communist? A Soviet is simply a ruling body, and would only realy apply to Slavic-speaking areas; placing it into the name od a country mearly implies that it is mainly oligarchic in nature, rather than being officially socialist (though, they can still be left-wing). Some examples would be Bavaria (communist rather than simply oligarchic), and Alyaska (not mentioned if it is either) (although Aleyska would be a better name). --Sikulu 20 December 2005, 15:28 (GMT)

I have gotten the impression that certain institutions in IB are known by nicknames rather than official titles. For example--Salic Law. This seems to me like a catch-all term for royal or noble inheiritance along the male line only rather than a specfic piece of legislation. I suspect the use of the word "Soviet" is much the same. Perhaps someone else can confirm or correct my impression. Zahir 07:32, 20 December 2005 (PST)
The term Salic Law is used *here* as well. It originally referred to a body of laws governing a group of Franks known as Salian Franks. One of the provisions of this law code was that salic lands could not be inherited by a woman. It was later re-interpreted to include not just Salic lands, but all of France (and later other countries adopted the same restrictions) and to exclude not just female inheritence, but also female-line inheritence. Today, the term Salic Law refers just to the male-line rule. See Wikipedia:Salic law for more details Nik 09:07, 20 December 2005 (PST)

All that aside, why do you think "Aleyska" (or did you mean "Alyeska"?) would be a better name? According to my knowledge, the Russian name is really "Alyaska". I especially asked my (Russian) wife for that! --IJzeren Jan 11:02, 20 December 2005 (PST)

That's how its spelt on the Althists on http://www.wolfram.demon.co.uk/alternate_history_top.html

--Sikulu 23 December 2005, 10:12 (GMT)

P.S. Most *communist* countries have a heavy use of the term Socialist in their official names. I'm just wandering what context *Soviet* was used in IB. --Sikulu 23 December 2005, 10:23 (GMT)

Saugeais? What's happened

Has the Republic of Saugeais been retconed out or something. Its on the maps on the main site; although, I don't know when most of the maps were updated. And why has Lubeck disappeared from the HRE map on the main site anyway? --Sikulu 23 December 2005, 10:26 (GMT)


Hello, I am Duane, and I live in Iowa (which to tell the truth I have no idea what it is in Ill Bethisad :P )

I have been looking at Ill Bethisad for a few days, and I am really facinated by alternate timelines and world cultures. I also really like conlang-ing.

Anyway, I'd like to help! I would like to have an area of my own! I am currently working on a Romance language (I know, so original!), and I'd like a place to put it. I haven't a preference where, as long as it will make sense? Please help me out!

Hi Duane! Welcome! And Happy Holidays! As for your ConLang, I defer any commentary at that to others better qualified than myself. Having an area of your own is not so easy as once it was, because so much is now set. This is not bad news however--it in fact is something of a challenge, I've found, and part of the fun. My advice is explore. You will find questions you'd like answered. Please ask'em. You'll find also there are quite a few holes in IB. Thousands in fact. For example, most of the provinces of the NAL are up for grabs (as long as you don't violate QSS). Perhaps you'd like to write an article detailing some event or person in history, showing how different they were *there* compared to *here* maybe? Our version of Oscar Wilde recently was posted--what might IB's P.T.Barnum be like? Or Robert E. Lee? Or Babe Ruth?
You'll find that getting your own little corner of IB is pretty much an organic process. You will find it rather than choose it.
And methinks you can have loads of fun!!!!! Zahir 18:29, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Hm... it looks like Ontario isn't claimed. Maybe I could work with it? Is there anything written about it? Because I cannot find anything. Duane 19:30, 16 December 2005 (PST)
There is a flag. And some folks like Gwilliam Lyon MacDowelland Gloria Dawson plus Georg and Lucas Spieldorf hail from there. There is a New Castreleon Ontario and Western Railway (O&W). One of its cities in Toronto, which includes a Mormon Temple. I would do some research into Ontario here first, and prepare a proposal for a week or two before submitting it. Later, you'll get to the point where you can prep them in much, much less time. That would be my advice. And you might want to check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture/ as well to see if there's any extra info about Ontario. When I prepped Jacobia I'd missed a news article that specifically referred to the "Lord Governor of Jacobia" which meant I had to do something of a re-write. Good luck! Zahir 19:59, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Oh, I found some that are pretty much completely untouched. Here's a question: Is it possible to propose a changing of a history if it doesn't really affect anything? Duane 20:09, 16 December 2005 (PST)
Depends on the situation. Some things are QSS which means they can't be changed without a very good reason, while others are QAA, which basically means they're open to change. If you think something should be changed, you can add it as a proposal, and see what everyone else thinks Nik 20:30, 16 December 2005 (PST)
It depends. It the history in question is QSS then then answer is--maybe. But only with a good reason. Generally we try to keep QSS as untouched as possible. If it is only a proposal or a stub, then there's more leeway. Plus, some things were put in mostly for filler until something better came along, but really only the "old hands" know much about which those are.
To give you some idea of how it worked for me: Initially, I volunteered to do some artwork for the conculture list. Research led me to discover one of my favorite Shakespearean plays would have to have a totally different plot, because Richard III died of old age. So I wrote an article about that play. From there, I expanded a bit on the Shakespeare article (actually the Gwilim Trammelpila article) because I have a BA in Theatre Arts. Then I went and created some t.v. shows that were inspired by shows *here* and began to make proposals about history, such as filling out some of the General Moderators of the NAL.
Lately, I've found a really fun way to do something in IB is to simply make up a name or a flag or something and ask folks here where they think it belongs. That's how I got interested in Oltenia.
I hope this helps in some way. Zahir 20:33, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Hi, I'm Conworlder

I joined this page via Conlang Wikicities. There I'm working on my project, the Zulbreth. I don't know what are you doing, but I imagine that you are invented a history of the World where you are putting your languages and cultures. So, when I thought on my language and its speakers, I believed they were descend from a Germanic people but there were disappear off the World under earth. I thought they appear another time in surface of the Earth when Manship was distroy itself. Cruel, I know!

--Conworlder 15:37, 18 December 2005 (PST)

Welcome! Thanks for stopping by to visit us! Since you don't know what's going on here, let's see about a synopsis: IB is a shared world, part alt-history, part group conculturing and conlanging project. The project is nearing its 10th year at describing our chosen secondary world. I read your User Page and must confess that my English is not quite up to the task of sorting out who you are from the given (and impressive) list of languages you are familiar with! Let's start with simples like name and country of residence. You'ld be amazed at how friendly people can be when they know who and where in the world you are! As well as how reticent they can be when someone refuses to adhere to the basics of social decorum! Let me also ask what the Zulbreth are -- what sort of people are they, what world do they inhabit?
Elemtilas 19:05, 18 December 2005 (PST)

No Access

When I try an access my personal page this is what I get: Parse error: parse error, unexpected $ in /home/.keekeroven/muke/ib.frath.net/w/includes/SkinTemplate.php on line 180

Is this just a temporary hiccup? Does anyone know? Anybody else having problems? Zahir 08:41, 22 December 2005 (PST)

Should have been temporary hiccup, a small upgrade to the wiki was in progress. It's over now tho so if it continues please let me know. —Muke Tever | 08:51, 22 December 2005 (PST)


So, what policy should we use for spelling it. I've been using it a bit inconsistently, but after a couple of edits, I think it's worth a proper policy. I'm rightpondian, so I'm naturally biased towards this, but I think the OED policy's the best:

The spelling license, though still often met with, has no justification in the case of the n. In the case of the vb., on the other hand, although the spelling licence is etymologically unobjectionable, license is supported by the analogy of the rule universally adopted in the similar pairs of related words, practice n., practise vb., prophecy n., prophesy vb. (The rule seems to have arisen from imitation of the spelling of pairs like advice n., advise vb., which expresses a phonetic distinction of historical origin.)

It's more consistent across the language than just using licence (which is what I normally do myself) or license. Thoughts?

First time here, so, I need some permissions:

Hi, I am wondering if I can create some other states rank insignias, for Castill, and the Royal United Federeted Army (for Federated Kingdoms).But first, I need permission to utilize some symbols from creators.

Thank you, Ziba.

I don't think their armies are federated. The 3 kingdoms (england, cambria, scotland) are, in most instances, separate entities.
Incidently, you don't need permission to post proposals (of course whether they are accepted is a different thing).
--Marc Pasquin 15:31, 2 December 2005 (PST)
Thank you Marc. Yes, indeed the militaries are separate entities, but they do operate in close coordination. [PB]
Just a thought--the NAL's army's insignia have not been worked out. The navy's has (the Solemn League Navy but the rest of the military of the NAL-SLC remains open, and odds are were heavily influenced by the military designs of England, Scotland and Kemr. Zahir 18:38, 2 December 2005 (PST)

I was really thinking about the 4th army, akin to like modern EU proposal. Each member kingdom can have their army on base of Royal Guards, would function rather as internal affair/home guard troops, thus retain their own insignias, while the larger, Royal Federal Army in chage of strategic defence of all kingdoms and colonies as well? How about this idea?


As I understand it, though, this violates QSS in that it has already been established that each member of the FK has its own military--although they do coordinate. What about this, though? Perhaps there is a specifically created institution--the Federated Royal Army, maybe--which has been established as an experiment with an eye to the eventual integration of all three militaries (although there are probably strong factions politically opposed to that idea)? Zahir 05:18, 3 December 2005 (PST)
Thats realy up to Andrew and the others but if we start going down that road, we'll just end up with the UK under a different name. I find it more interesting to keep all 3 kingdoms as closely allied but separate entities.
In any case, look at Nato, Eurofor and other such organisations: their links are administrative and save for the odd badges, all countries keep their own uniforms and insignias.
--Marc Pasquin 05:21, 3 December 2005 (PST)
I don't think the nature of FK federalism has been fully studied and historiographed. This could be an interesting development to consider as there is 200 years of coordination. We know that no federal parliament has emerged; there was only a brief period when all three kingdoms had a shared monarchy, and all three kingdoms preserve native law codes. My own suspicion is that the FK walks a fine line between assimilation and pulling apart. All three kingdoms need to be active in keeping the federal spirit alive. Perhaps the Great Wars inspired the FK Services to create a Federal Command: the Federated Royal Army. This would be a level parallel and above the Royal officer ranks. Some thought needs to be given to imagining what Federated institutions exist in the FK. - AndrewSmith 17:31, 3 December 2005 (PST)
Perhaps the Great Wars inspired the FK Services to create a Federal Command: the Federated Royal Army.
Since I am new, indeed how did they survive the Great Wars?And follow up, what about the Holy Roman Army, or what?
Thank you,Ziba.
I would guess the unified german army was disbanded: conscripts told to go home and some state armies formed using war-era resistants and officer to went into exile.--Marc Pasquin 15:49, 31 December 2005 (PST)

The Blue Hussars

I want to flesh out some constitutional details of Ireland, and part of that is that I'd like to see the Blue Hussars still in service *there*. *Here*, they were disbanded, rather unfortunately in my mind, but I'd like to have them continue in service *there*. Seeing as the Hussars were a form of cavalry that originated in eastern Europe and spread westwards, I'm not sure if Kemr would have Hussars, which is a precondition to Ireland having them. --Kgaughan 07:31, 7 December 2005 (PST)

Why wouldn't they? I think it would be very IB for countries to copy exotic cavalry units more so than *here*: Hussars, Uhlans, Bosniaks, Cossacks, etc. Boreanesia 09:03, 7 December 2005 (PST)
Me, I like it. I was assuming there was a similar kind of Oltenian Princely Guard. Zahir 09:16, 7 December 2005 (PST)
Given the Blue Hussar's origin here, it's unlikely that they would have been copied that directly. The existence of some kind of similar Kemrese unit really is a requirement, so I really need some word of assurance from Andrew or Padraic first. --Kgaughan 12:55, 7 December 2005 (PST)
I agree -- the Romans copied exotic cavalries too after all! It's really up to Andrew, but for my part (and not knowing what their origin *here* is), I certainly wouldn't mind. Elemtilas
Worst comes to worst, I can always go with a Mounted Escort that actually used Sean Keating's original--and far more 'irish' looking--design. But I'm not that great an artist and can't see myself being able to do justice to it. --Kgaughan 08:50, 8 December 2005 (PST)
Would you happen to have a picture of said uniform (or a description) ? --Marc Pasquin 15:49, 31 December 2005 (PST)
Bother! I meant to look up the dictionaries while I was in town to see if I could find an equivalent for Hussars in Brithenig. It will have to wait until Monday. We know that the Chomro prided themselves on being horsemen (ill marchag in Brithenig). The companions of the Emperor Arther were horsemen after all, traced back to Sarmatian troops who were stationed in Britannia in the Roman age. I guess that they would have developed their own traditions of knighthood and cavalry. Sorry I'm being slow on replying to this. Suggestions for Kemrese cavalry traditions are now open for commission - AndrewSmith 00:09, 9 December 2005 (PST)
Looks like Brithenig has borrowed Hussar directly, or calls them Marchsollteir, horse-soldier. - AndrewSmith 01:13, 12 December 2005 (PST)

Video Games...

Does IB have video games, and if they do, are they similiar to ours, or behind ours?

Another idea just struck me... If there are video games, would that not also mean there is video game violence? Would there be people *there* who think violent video games cause violent behavior? Just some idea... Seth

I see no reason why IB would not have video games, but my guess is they aren't quite as popular. Technically, they'd probably be less advanced since the "rule of thumb" seems to be IB is usually about 15 years behind us (with some exceptions--their airships are more advanced, for example, while their rockets and atomic weapons are more than 15 years behind us). The social reaction to the games would probably be similar. JMHO. Zahir 05:40, 28 December 2005 (PST)
I think I ought to point out that IB isn't any less advanced than here, just differently advanced. For instance in computing, things are in general 15 years behind, mainly because GWII didn't give the same kind of "push" as here owing to the lack of the Colossus and the spurt it gave to research in the field in the UK, but there are elements of it more advanced than *here*, like, especially in the areas of power efficiency and parallel computing. For instance, you might have heard of IBM's cell processors as used in the PS3? Well, IB's had something like that for a veeery long time (owing to me having an idea similar to it when I was a kid; boy I felt sick when I heard about it :-). To answer Seth, yup there's games and there's all the same problems we had with them *here* 15 years ago. Padraic explains things pretty well further on. --Kgaughan 08:27, 29 December 2005 (PST)
Indeed. Computers do exist (produced mainly in Ireland, and there is also some rudimentary Internetlike thing going on, but it is definitely not as popularised as *here*. Same goes for mobile telephony: they exist, but as far as I understood they are transported rather than carried, and it's not like every second person in IB has one (Kristian compared them to "mobile phone booths"). One cannot say that IB is technologically more backward than the Real World, but the absence of an arms race undoubtedly also means the absence of several of its technological side-effects, including the more pleasant ones. Most notably, in the field of space exploration: there still hasn't been a Man on the Moon, and all there is is a few satellites.
BTW, Seth, instead of using the Talk Page of a non-existing article, you might want to ask such questions in Lla Dafern instead. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:26, 28 December 2005 (PST)
Also, please don't forget to sign your messages! We really do like to know who we're talking with! Elemtilas
Another question: perhaps I'm not from this world, but what is "video game violence"? [JvS]
A lot of video games involve virtual violence--shooting, slashing, launching bombs, etc. Many critics believe this "game violence" desensitises players to the idea of the Real Thing. The idea is that on an emotional level young people will come to equate things like "murder" or "war" with "game" and "fun." Zahir 07:05, 28 December 2005 (PST)
Ah, thanks! Well, in that case I can't see why that would be any different from *here*. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 07:20, 28 December 2005 (PST)

In answer to Seth's original query: yes, there are video games. But it must be qualified by the understanding that there really aren't any home computers as we know them (as of yet) and the direction computing has been taking the last several decades has been towards information storage, retrieval and sharing. We're looking mostly at things like Usenet, Fidonet and the like. The greatest users of computers are universities, medical centers, governments (libraries and museums incl.) and militaries. Mind you, the college students who are and have been presently using them at school are clamoring for more, so I would suspect that home computers are very close.

The form that video games take is probably something more akin to the stand-alone type video arcade machine than the PSP or X-Box. I suspect that video game parlours are pretty common, possibly connected to an internet cafe sort of thing, in those areas where there are connexions.

RE: video game violence. I think it's hooey that video violence desensitises people to the idea of the Real Thing. The same 40-somethings that are horrified at the violence in their kids video games have simply forgotten that 30 years ago, they were filling their minds with all sorts of cartoon violence (honest now: how many of dìdn't laugh when Jerry whacked Tom with a cast iron frying pan?), to say nothing of movie violence and real life kid game violence. What bunch of kids hasn't chased each other around with sticks or played games like Cowboy and Indian? In stead of namby-pambying about their kids violent video games, they ought to get some backbone and learn how to parent their kids so they can overcome the violence that's there.

Elemtilas 09:20, 28 December 2005 (PST)

Although this perhaps is the wrong forum to mention such, I agree with you in that video game violence alone is not a problem. The amount of same might be a symptom of something, and then the VG violence might serve to exacerbate a problem, but is in no sense an origin of same. Zahir 09:45, 28 December 2005 (PST)


I think it might be a nice idea to compile a little Glossary of commonly used English words that are spelled differently in IB. They frequently show up in news articles and in many Wiki pages. The idea being that it would serve as a ready reference for anyone who happens to need one of those words for a news article or quote or similar. Any thoughts or comments?

Good idea. BPJ 06:40, 30 December 2005 (PST)

I have returned

I am back to the land down under (and more importantly, to my computer). I'll be going through the pages to see what has happened in my absence (so no need for a "what did I miss ?" thread).

If however something require me to have a look-see on a page I might not think to look at (like a mention of New Francy on the georgian page) please leave me a note on my personal page.--Marc Pasquin 15:22, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Welcome back! I think we've left New France pretty well alone, though of course, there is the temptation to invade and put the Intendency out of its misery! ;))) Elemtilas 21:40, 30 December 2005 (PST)

Page's name

I think maybe we should make it a rule to name pages using *here* english (and just undiacriticed letters). While I can see the logic of using *there* english, it will make it harder to link to the page or simply prevent the name being displayed on some computer.

The recently created "Thiruvithán kúr" (sp. ?) for example appears with a square on my screen.

--Marc Pasquin 05:43, 31 December 2005 (PST)

What operating system are you using? All the IB wiki pages are served as UTF-8, so my guess is that you might be using one that doesn't support Unicode, such as Windows 98. --Kgaughan 10:56, 31 December 2005 (PST)
Windows XP professional 5.1 (with automatic update running). The "Thorns" I get but what is the character in between the "n" and the "k" ?--Marc Pasquin 14:40, 31 December 2005 (PST)
I guess you are using M$ Internet Exploder which doesn't handle Unicode correctly unless your/the page's default font does -- Unlike Firefox (hint hint). This said I agree about naming pages using *here's* English alphabet, as everyone should be able to type the URLs. The mysterious character BTW is a superscript ring. BPJ 16:20, 31 December 2005 (PST)
There is no character seen between the "n" and the "k", however the "n" should have a ring over it. That is how it appears to me. Is it unappropiate to name pages using such caracters and in that case, what would be a better name for the page describing "Þiruviþán̊kúr"? "Thiruvithánkúr", "Thiruvithankur" or maybe something else? "Travancore"? RoMex 16:24, 31 December 2005 (PST)
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