Lla Dafern/Archive4

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

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Any similarity to what the Wikipedians call The Village Pump is not entirely coincidental.

NOTA BENE: You can sign your messages by typing ~~~ for just your name and ~~~~ for your name + timestamp.

The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December




As you may of may not have noticed, I have submitted a rather huge number of pages (33) for deletion. You can see the full list here. All are pages about languages or language families that contain no other info than a template or something that I incorporated in one of the two templates I created for the Romance languages. Frankly, I don't see the point of pages that contain only the same template that linked to them. And frankly, I don't see that anyone will ever expand them. Until, for example, someone decides to write an article about the Hellenic languages *there*, which I doubt will ever happen, an article like that is of no more importance to use than a stub about the mathematical ideas of Pythagoras.

It is not without hesitation that I'm doing this. All these articles were originally created by Carlos, who is an esteemed member of our community. I sincerily hope I'm not offending him with this, and I hope he is reading this. But in all honesty, I can't really think of a reason why he created them in the first place. As far as I can gather, the only additional value is that they allow a template to be full of blue links. If you ask me, that is really no excuse for creating useless pages. I'd like to hear some other opinions.

On a related topic, have you ever seen our list of stubs? Currently, there are 225 of them, which is more than 1/6 of our entire number of articles! I'm not saying stubs are worthless by definition, and many of the articles listed there contain valuable information (so much that they don't really qualify as stubs, if you ask me). But shouldn't we go through that list one day, add some info and destubbify them? Or, in some cases, deleting them would be in place? In my opinion, an article about Paris saying "Paris is the capital of France" is surely pointless when the article about France already mentions Paris as its capital (hypothetical example). I know, I've been talking about stubs before, but I've been cleaning up a little recently, and these are a few of the things I encountered.

--IJzeren Jan 08:20, 2 November 2005 (PST)

Have destubbified some. Kyrmse 09:25, 2 November 2005 (PST)
I think you're right. Zahir 09:29, 2 November 2005 (PST)

Fictional entry

Maybe a tag could be create for entries that refer to fictional elements within IB (that is, what is considered fictional on IB like comics, movies, etc...) just to avoid possible confusion. --Marc Pasquin 07:22, 5 November 2005 (PST)

Huh. One would think the actual articles would mention something being fictional, but on the other hand it would be easy to forget. Yeah, that seems like a good idea, overall. In particular it might help future members of the project from getting confused and start thinking that in IB folks like Doc Gabriel were intended to be real! Zahir 07:57, 5 November 2005 (PST)
Something along the lines of "This item is fictional even within the world of Ill Bethisad itself"? Of course, it could be done. But in my opinion, that's pushing it a bit. Shouldn't it become clear from the contents of the article itself that it deals with a book or a movie? If you write something like "... is a series of comic books written between 19.. and 19.. by ... The protagonist is a certain ..., who ..., etc. etc. etc.", it will be perfectly clear to any reader that we are dealing with a piece of sub-subcreation, if you ask me. If you really want a template, go ahead and make it, or ask someone else to do it. But my personal opinion is that we shouldn't get lost too in secondary stuff like templates and categories and the like (which is often the case in Wikipedia itself). We've got too much of that already! --IJzeren Jan 08:35, 5 November 2005 (PST)

Weekly Contribution ?

How about we do as on wikipedia and start nominating articles for group contributions each week. What say you ? --Marc Pasquin 07:22, 5 November 2005 (PST)

If folks want to do that, I'm all for it. One of the fun aspects of IB (to me anyway) is the community itself. Zahir 07:57, 5 November 2005 (PST)
No objections on my part! In fact, could be fun, and "enhance the mutual understanding between our various cultures, help them in building bridges, and emphasise the similarities instead of the differences, etc.". I'm not familiar with the phenomenon. How exactly does it work on Wikipedia? --IJzeren Jan 08:27, 5 November 2005 (PST)
to plagiarise from an autralian page:
Every [one or two weeks], an [IB] Collaboration of the [week/Fortnight] will be picked using this page. This is a specific topic which either has no article or a basic stub page [...] the aim being to have a featured-standard article by the end of the period, from widespread cooperative editing.
The project aims to fill gaps about [IB], to give users a focus and to give us all something to be proud of. [...]Anyone who is a registered user [...] can nominate an article and can vote for the nominated articles.
Every [other/second] Sunday, the votes are tallied, and the winner will be promoted for two weeks to potential contributors."
You can read more here:
This isn't what I thought you meant--it is actually much better! So we could build an NAL province almost from scratch, for example, as a group effort once a month or so, yes? As a joint effort? Zahir 09:33, 5 November 2005 (PST)
glad to hear it. What did you think I meant ?--Marc Pasquin 10:02, 5 November 2005 (PST)
Initially I thought you meant a monthly "Best Of..." kinda thingee. Which would have been cool, but what you actually meant is much, much cooler! Let's hope everyone else agrees! Zahir 10:14, 5 November 2005 (PST)
I like the idea. Let's give it a try! --IJzeren Jan

Bjorn Honstadt

At the good M. Pasquin's request, I've given a non-English name (well, actually two) to some Air Carriers in my WIP article Atlantic Air War. One of these, White Eyes, is based on a real figure. He was a Chief of the Lani Lanape (or "Delaware") tribe who tried to forge Ohio into a all-Native "fourteenth state" during the late XVIIIth century. Methinks we can safely assume his efforts met with more success *there*.

But the other name I all-but-pulled out of a hat. Scandinavia is so important in IB that I chose the first such name I could think on--Bjorn. Then I recalled a book I'm reading that dealt with some genuine Norwegian immigrants to Maine in the late XIXth century. Their family name was Honstadt.

So: Bjørn Honstadt

The premise I was going for was that the carriers are named for prominent leaders in NAL history--Thomas Jefferson, Abram Lincoln, John Thompson. But...who was Bjorn Honstandt?????

I don't know. Under the circumstance I can only assume him to be a terrifically important figure in the NAL who died sometime before 1939 or so. All I have is his name. What I am asking for is assistance in learning more about this pivotal figure in history--what were his contributions, his failures and triumphs, and why has his name come to be so vividly recalled by later generations?

Anybody??????? Zahir 15:56, 5 November 2005 (PST)

Standard World Map

The map in The List article is probably based on a Standard World Map of Ill Bethisad, showing all the boundaries (though, sadly, nót Xliponia!), done by one of the members. Wouldn't it be nice to have a high-resolution version kept updated and uploaded among the images, so that (parts of) that map may be used by members for their own national / regional purposes? (after Xliponia has been included, of course - that's part of the updating process!) Kyrmse 06:32, 7 November 2005 (PST)

If You Don't Hear Much From Me

My fiancee has been hospitalized earlier today. You might not hear much from me much for a few days. Zahir 22:45, 10 November 2005 (PST)

Nothing too serious, I hope! Nik 22:53, 10 November 2005 (PST)
In any case, good luck to both of you! --IJzeren Jan 23:25, 10 November 2005 (PST)
Colleen is in a coma. Her internal organs are failing one by one. She is not expected to survive. Zahir 07:27, 11 November 2005 (PST)

Oy, that's bad news, David! How could that happen so suddenly? Well, if it's thát bad, I guess all that can be done is praying. My thoughts are with you! --IJzeren Jan 07:53, 11 November 2005 (PST)

I hope things will go better than it is expected... It always can go better, so I hope it will. Good luck for her and you, take care... Abdul-aziz 08:33, 11 November 2005 (PST)

I'll mind the Millennium-verse for thee. God be with you.Theophilus88

My thoughts are with you! -- BPJ 09:17, 11 November 2005 (PST)

I can imagine how you feel. May God give you strength. Kyrmse 09:43, 11 November 2005 (PST)

You've become quite the dear friend to us. You and your beloved Colleen are in our thoughts and prayers. BoArthur

Gods go with you, David. You'll both be in my thoughts. Deiniol 10:44, 11 November 2005 (PST)

Can only add my own prayers to the mix. Elemtilas

Many thanks for your kind words. She passed away today at 2:20pm PST. Zahir 15:37, 11 November 2005 (PST)

May God comfort you in this time. BoArthur

Oh dear, I am sorry to read of your loss - AndrewSmith 20:53, 11 November 2005 (PST)

My sincere condoleances to you! We will do whatever we can to make your loss a little more bearable. --IJzeren Jan 23:17, 11 November 2005 (PST)

I am sorry to hear about your loss... I hope you'll manage to get through and I hope she's in heaven now. Stay strong... Abdul-aziz 01:18, 12 November 2005 (PST)

Regarding proposals


I've been busy updating the Proposals list a bit. As it turned out, many pages carrying the {{proposal}} tag were not on the list. But then the thought occurred to me that this work was pretty pointless: after all, all those pages can be found in Category:Proposal. By simply adding the {{proposal}} tag, pages are automatically included in that category. Adding them manually to the proposals page is double work. Therefore, I suggest we delete the page Proposal, and to replace all links to it (among others, on the Main Page) with links to the category.

Another thing. As for now, no less than 126 pages (the corresponding templates not included) carry the {{proposal}} tag. My idea is that such a huge amount of proposals pretty much invalidates the "Cycle of Proposals", as we call it. Many of the pages listed in Category:Proposal have been there since February. I can only conclude that our proposal system does not function properly.

What to do about it?

  • First of all, do not launch every idea as an official proposal. If the scope of a new article remains safely within the boundaries of your country/area of interest, and you know in advance that it doesn't violate QSS, then there's no need for "group approval". If all we write needs to be approved by the rest of the group, we'll never get anywhere. Conversely, dó list an idea as a proposal when it touches "the world", or at least the territories of other members. To use myself as an example, I wouldn't introduce a new SNOR leader as a proposal, but in the case of the Russo-Moghul War I'm preparing I most definitely would.
Or more specifically, if you wouldn't introduce a new SNOR leader as an official proposal; if SNOR didn't yet exist as Russia's political system of decades ago, you certainly would introduce it via the Cycle of Proposals! ;) Elemtilas
  • Everybody, please dó look through the list proposals every once in a while. If you disagree with something, please mention that on the talk page. There's no harm in doing the same when you dó agree.
Will do. I went through the list once earlier the year and deproposalised a lot of stuff that shouldn't have been proposalised in the first place.
  • The "proposal" status of an article should expire at a certain moment. We can of course make it complicated and switch from {{proposal}} to {{conditionalproposal}} first, but I don't see the additional value of that. My own point of view: one month is long enough for an article to be on the proposal list. Once it has been there longer than that, the proposal tag should be removed.
Agreed. If it should turn out that the article does in fact conflict with QSS, then it can always be worked on at that time.
  • Let everybody be responsible for his own proposals. After you submit a proposal, please keep track of it, and after a certain period (like the month I proposed) remove the tag yourself. If no one has reacted yet and you want to be sure, just mention it in Lla Dafern.
Agreed. Seems like everyone comes in here from time to time.
  • Certain proposals can of course stay longer, for example when they have a very deep impact, or when they touch the realm of a currently inactive member.
  • Mind, even if an article has been deproposalised, that does NOT mean that it can't be modified or expanded. QSS means that we accept the basics; details can always be discussed.
  • For now, let's try to make a joint effort and reduce the number of current proposals to a far smaller amount. I think if we really want the proposal system to work properly, there shouldn't be more than 20 or 30 proposals at a time.

Comments? --IJzeren Jan 02:31, 11 November 2005 (PST)

OK...now on to the proposals page! Elemtilas
I like what you've proposed, Jan, and I like what you and your crew of depropositionists have done. BoArthur
I've added a list of Current Proposals with dates and Current WIPs to my user page. I humbly suggest this would be no bad thing for many of us to keep track of our efforts. Zahir 08:16, 20 November 2005 (PST)
Good idea! Especially also that you added dates. As I suggested elsewhere, it would be good if everybody looks a bit after his own proposals, and deproposes them himself after a while (theoretically one month, but if the interested parties have already discussed it and agree with it, that can of course be shorter). --IJzeren Jan 08:29, 20 November 2005 (PST)


Is there a list of tags somewhere ? I'm looking for a QAA one for the World Game (which as it stand shouldn't be official).--Marc Pasquin 14:21, 12 November 2005 (PST)

Try Templates for user messages#Standard texts. There is not really a special tag for QAA. If you want, I can make one. But my personal opinion is that we shouldn't have tags for QAA and/or QSS; if we start doing that, soon every single article here will have some tag, and that's one of those typical wikipedia diseases that I'd rather avoid here.
On the other hand, I don't think a QAA tag is really what you are looking for in this case. The idea behind QAA is, that when we can't find certain things within our corpus of QSS, we make certain assumptions. Usually, these assumptions are based on OTL, perhaps with some minor tweakage. My POV is that all we know about unowned countries and areas is inherently QAA, and not QSS (excepting those facts that are part of the QSS of another country).
The World Games doesn't really fit in that category. What you are probably looking for is a tag that says that the article is incomplete, that it needs to be expanded, or something in that direction. You might consider using the {{workinprogress}} tag, or perhaps one that says that the content is disputed. Am I getting that right? --IJzeren Jan 01:10, 13 November 2005 (PST)
{{workinprogress}} sounds like just the thing, cheers for that.--Marc Pasquin 02:23, 13 November 2005 (PST)

Franco-Prussian War

While working my way through the list of proposals, I stumbled upon various documents (proposals or not) referring to the Franco-Prussian War. Now, I have some vague recollections about there never having been such a war in IB, but I may very well be wrong. Could others be of help here? --IJzeren Jan 02:21, 14 November 2005 (PST)

Probably what we need to do is figure out if some of its outcome can be explained away differently. One biggy of course is the creation of a unified german empire that followed. --Marc Pasquin 02:36, 14 November 2005 (PST)
Well, that's perhaps the first question: did the creation of a unified German empire follow at all? My impression is that it didn't; only Hessler and Billy II would do it later, in a completely different way. --IJzeren Jan 02:43, 14 November 2005 (PST)


For Libya, I used Damatia as the 1980’s USA, and Sicily as the nation of the hijacked plane flight. Please contact me if you feel these are inappropriate or need adjustment.Theophilus88

Caribbean League

Have we reached a consensus on this idea, then? Are we ready to begin news-articles that with this end-goal in mind?

Do we want to have opposition from the NAL-SLC suggesting that they all just join the NAL rather than make their own country/subnational entity? BoArthur

If I may suggest--perhaps the Whigs are being hardliners about joining the NAL while the Progressive Conservatives are much more in favor of the Carribbean League? Zahir 13:31, 15 November 2005 (PST)
Before we get into the mud slinging ... I don't think there is sufficient concensus at all! Unless I completely misread the whole thing, the French territories are integral parts of France and would not consent to secede from France and join a new country. The Batavian colonies did not appear particularly favourable either. That leaves the Cruzans, who at present have just been repatriated to the SR and seem to be unwilling to have anything to do with non-Scandinavian powers. All that's left is Commonwealth territories! I think that some kind of new Commonwealth country encompassing all of these little island territories is probably inevitable at this point (for defensive and intragovernmental purposes if for no other reason); but I think the CaL as originally proposed is dead in the water. I note that there are considerable conflicts between the CaL article and discussion pages. This will have to be cleared up before moving forward.
News articles will not be a bad idea, but we should be clear on what the CaL is going to be all about! Elemtilas
What would be the relationship between the NAL and the CaL? Any thoughts at this point about where the union would end up in the next decade or two? Nik 19:30, 15 November 2005 (PST)
In my mind, it would be a nation like the NAL and would eventually solidify as the NAL has done, greatly curbing a resurgence of Flo-Car. BoArthur 20:28, 15 November 2005 (PST)
I concur with that vision -- that's what I understood from the original proposal. As for the relationship between the NAL and the CaL: naturally, they would both be truly equal members of the Commonwealth of Nations. In stead of T&T and Barbadoes and all the rest being represented by the English Commonwealth minister (via the Foreign Office, I suppose), the new country would send its own minister to Commonwealth functions. Further, I'm sure the NAL would be expected to look after the CaL for a while and offer guidance. There would also be a considerably close trade and economic tie -- I am sure that the Islands are a favourite get-away place for Americans *there* as well as *here*. There is also produce exported from the region to the wider world.
Of course, existing infrastructures (banking, regulatory systems, etc) would be transfered to the new national government. Any differences between the Scottish, English and Kemrese legal systems would have to be ironed out too. New infrastructures (national military and the like) would have to be developped. Should any of the French, Batavian or Scandinavian territories join up -- matters regarding the transferral of sovereignty would have to be ironed out as well. There is also an Irish territory in the region (Montserrat, I think?) which may or may not join up -- we haven't heard from the Irish at all.
Elemtilas 13:05, 16 November 2005 (PST)
Sounds to me as if we've ironed out most of the issues. I vote we begin to move forward with the press releases, with the Commonwealth islands unifying in about 18 months to some degree? BoArthur
Yes, I agree. --IJzeren Jan 23:13, 16 November 2005 (PST)
Very well! Fasten seat belts and keep all extremities in the vehicle! Elemtilas

Deletion Flurry

I would hope that as we're deleting these articles that are really fluff, that we make sure that the very little data contained in them is concatenated in other articles. BoArthur

Of course. When an article contains even the slightest trace of a fact that might not be mentioned elsewhere, I leave it for now. But in the case of New Granada, everything is already on the page Subdivisions of New Granada. I honestly don't understand what prompted Carlos to create all those stubs. Anyway, I sincerely hope he won't feel offended. But it has to be said: these stubs are really worthless, and 200+ of them on a total number of ca. 1350 articles is really unacceptable. There seems to be consensus about removing them. And rest assured: Nik is very consciencious in the way he's doing this, and so am I. --IJzeren Jan 16:42, 15 November 2005 (PST)
It could be that Carlos was organizing his ideas. I did much the same with Louisianne. Maybe his life simply got complicated before he could bring these articles from bare-bones to a stub. The nice thing is, he'll be able to replace them when he comes back from his hiatus. BoArthur 20:27, 15 November 2005 (PST)
That could of course be! And yes, he became father of a child during that period, so I can also understand why he is currently less active. He has done great stuff for us, and I sincerely hope for his return. If that happens, and he asks for the stubs to be undeleted, I won't hesitate to do so (but in the hope that they won't remain stubs forever). --IJzeren Jan 03:10, 16 November 2005 (PST)

Whose Arms Are These?

I offer this as a challenge, much as the one regarding the General Moderator Bjorn Honstadt. Whose arms are these? A city? A now-defunct nation? A family? Why these particular charges? Where do they "fit in" in IB?


Let us pool our imaginations and discover the truth! Zahir 09:23, 17 November 2005 (PST)

Looks to me like something from Oltenia or Muntenia, possibly Hungary... (for the bat, mostly). BoArthur

I have to admit that I have similar connotations. The bat is pretty suggestive, of course!
Hey, couldn't we use the bat somehow as a national weapon of one of the Balkan states? If you look at flags of Bulgaria, Muntenia, Oltenia and Hungary under SNORist rule, you will see that it is precisely the same eagle as the Russian one. Frankly, do believe that the countries subordinated to Russia in that period would use symbols of the same type and in the same style, but not that they would use literally the same symbol. Some sort of snorised version of a bat could be a nice substitute for, say, Oltenia. Do others have an opinion about that? Marc? Ferko, in case you are listening? --IJzeren Jan 13:02, 17 November 2005 (PST)
Bulgaria could have a lion's head behind a cross. Hungary, cross swords below a crown (military junta more then SNORists). I remember making one SNORist symbol for muntenia that had a one-headed eagle holding the cross in his beak (like the romanian COA *here*), I see if I can find it.--Marc Pasquin 18:02, 17 November 2005 (PST)
Found it:
--Marc Pasquin 18:07, 17 November 2005 (PST)
Yes, the one for occupied Veneda is in use on History of the RTC. I don't know why the Muntenian one wasn't used at last. But on the other hand, I have already used thát eagle for Estonia and Latvia. Now that I think of it, twice the same eagle for Estonia and Latvia ain't good either. I'd much rather use your proposal for a Latvian junta emblem on the flag and leave the eagle for Estonia. --IJzeren Jan 02:08, 18 November 2005 (PST)
Up to you but unlike the others, Estonia has never used an eagle historicaly. Instead I would suggest something such as 3 lions (one facing right, one left and the middle one facing toward the viewer) behind a cross (are they orthodox ?). something like this (not actual symbol, just a clipart sketch):
Prop-ee-snor.png version 2
--Marc Pasquin 06:23, 18 November 2005 (PST)
Very good. I'll use that! --IJzeren Jan 03:48, 19 November 2005 (PST)

If you're looking for some "bat arms" I've designed a few...

Perhaps one of these (or the original arms above) could be a family that are Pretenders to the throne of Moldava or some such? And although the country (or countries) in question are republics, the family is heavily involved in politics and are the standard-bearers for a Royalist faction. More than one branch, maybe? Zahir 18:45, 17 November 2005 (PST)

I'd say: princes of Oltenia in that case. --IJzeren Jan 02:08, 18 November 2005 (PST)
What do you think of these as options for old flag and Snorist flag for Oltenia?
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5653/oldoltena9sp.jpg and http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/5443/snoroltena29gm.jpg
And I was thinking of the name Dragonasi. Comments? Zahir 08:59, 18 November 2005 (PST)
Works for me! One thing, though: the snorist bat somehow seems to miss his body and legs. Would it be possible for you to fix that?
What do you mean by Dragonasi? Name for what? --IJzeren Jan 03:49, 19 November 2005 (PST)
A name for a family who would be the princes of Oltenia. Although I got that from a novel, I'm thinking of a different direction right now. I'll post it as a full proposal eventually. And here is the Oltenian Snor Flag with the change you mentioned:
Anybody else have any comments? Zahir 08:07, 19 November 2005 (PST)
Elongating the body would enable the blue cross to be more visible.
Just an example:
While putting one colour on another is usualy avoided, there are exception. In these later cases though, the entire object is normaly on it otherwise you end up with *part* of the object being more visible then the rest. The other option would be to just put a small yellow fimibriation around the parts of the cross not directly on the body of the bat.
--Marc Pasquin 08:47, 19 November 2005 (PST)

I prefer something just a tiny bit more angular: http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9507/snoroltena47se.jpg But maybe that is just me... Zahir 09:14, 19 November 2005 (PST)

I agree, this last version is precisely what I had in mind! --IJzeren Jan 18:43, 19 November 2005 (PST)

Keeping multiple Proposals

People seem to have difficulty getting rid of some proposals. For example, many flags I made at one point were somehow kept even when something else was chosen. While I do appreciate the sentiment, there realy is no point in my view. If its to save someone's feeling, it shouldn't be seen by anyone as a slight (least of all me). The same apply to texts and ideas being floged around.--Marc Pasquin 17:54, 17 November 2005 (PST)

My position, generally, is that no work done for IB should go to hell just like that. Whenever possible, it should be incorporated one way or another. If, say, we have four flag proposals for a place and we pick one, the other ones could still work as provincial flags, historical flags, political flags, city flags or whathaveyou. We can always find a place for a flag!
Another thing is that proposals are rarely turned down. Instead, we tweak and tweak until it fits. I can think of only very few cases when a proposal really didn't make it. To which I would add that the essence of IB is IMO not only the final result, but also the discussion about it.
So, if you still want to have something deleted, just add the {{delete}} tag to the page.
As for the SNOR t-shirt: I was a bit unpleasantly surprised to find it deleted. I noticed it a few days ago when I was in a hurry, and didn't make a copy of it yet. Would it be possible for you to send it to me in private? I understand perfectly well that you don't want to be looked upon as a Russian neonazi, but the IB crew knows better. And I have to see that it was a really cool picture! Or, alternatively, would you consider reuploading it again and just add it to the SNOR page as a sample of neo-snorism (without mentioning that it is actually you wearing it)? --IJzeren Jan 23:57, 17 November 2005 (PST)
My problem is that sometime keeping both make it look like an artificial pairing, and in terms of ideas, lose the focus. Imagine for example having to reconcile militant buddhist that somehow won the russian civil war. If you fear losing discussions and intersting concepts, we could simply have an "idea box" were we keep suggestions that didn't make it and that can serve as inspiration for something else later on.
regarding the photo, I'll upload it with a different face.--Marc Pasquin 06:23, 18 November 2005 (PST)
That's great, Marc! --IJzeren Jan 03:51, 19 November 2005 (PST)
To be sure, a new proposal is not always reconcilable with QSS and/or needs some veryheavy modification. But isn't that something to be handled on a case-by-case basis? Zahir 06:58, 18 November 2005 (PST)
I wasn't saying otherwise, just that we do seem to have problem getting rid of obsolete proposals. Trying to be too much of everything will, in my mind, obliterate the truly interesting elements.--Marc Pasquin 10:06, 18 November 2005 (PST)
Could you give a few examples? I surely don't mind throwing away some obsolete stuff, but it honestly don't really know what you have in mind now. --IJzeren Jan 03:51, 19 November 2005 (PST)
My own personnal beef is mostly about flags. A lot of those I did for FOIB were just intended as placeholders. I don't think they should be kept (or somehow integrated) if someone comes along and developt the various countries in a way that would make the flag in question make less sense or even if he just don't like it and can come up with something better.
As for text, it just seem that on the list (when I was a member anyway) a lot of the discussion had to do with integrating various proposals together. While this can sometime be beneficial, I just think we shouldn't feel bad about dropping ideas. In cases when more then one person made a claim on some parcel of lands, the reflex seemed to have been to declare it a condominium. Once in a while its okay but we shouldn't be afraid of simply taking a vote and saying "this island go to that country" based on the best arguments put forward.
In the same way, whenever we accept previously created conculture into IB, we shouldn't simply accept its history as QSS. More often then not, they tend to suffer from the "living in a vacuum" syndrome where they are said to have never been conquered in a thousand years and never having been influenced by the outside world. This is not an attack on those place incidently (like the recent arrival of Xliponia), I fully understand that they were created as micronations and not as world building exercises. The problem is that reading trough their history you don't get the feeling that they belong to IB but that they are some little known small country from *here*. We shouldn't feel bad about asking the creator to make a few changes instead of accepting them in toto. If they refuse (and fair enough as it is their creation) we could simply go on our separate ways.--Marc Pasquin 08:27, 19 November 2005 (PST)

For what its worth, I think you make a good point. I myself try to put forth my proposals as something that can fit in with everything else--although exactly what constitutes "fitting in" may be a whole 'nother matter of debate! Seems to me Kymrese has been trying to integrate Xliponia into IB, but that is a little stalled because he's busy at the moment. Meanwhile, sometimes I come across the opposite problem--of trying to write into what looks like a vacuum but which has QSS attached, said QSS sometimes very hard to find. Still, I'm learning and like to think I'm getting better at that. Zahir 08:58, 19 November 2005 (PST)

I can see your point about flags, Marc. A lot of them are just temporary placeholders indeed and should simply be replaced. There is only one problem: FOIB can't be accessed by anyone but Ferko, and Ferko doesn't seem to have access to his own site. Therefore, we're essentially stuck with FOIB in its current state. That shouldn't of course stop us from placing the updated flags here in this wiki.
Further, I don't feel bad about dropping ideas; when something doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I admit that sometimes we try a little too hard to integrate a proposal that doesn't make sense (like with that fairly recent proposal of a bunch of Tejan fisherman colonising Antarctica in the 19th century), but in this particular case the conclusion was still: no. But frankly, I can't think of any condominium in IB that was the result of such a "double claim".
As for your third point: can you think of any example other than Xliponia? As far as I can tell, that is the only conculture that was elaborated before it joined IB. In cases like that, you'll always have to build a compromise, one way or another. Sure, "living in vacuum for 1000 years" certainly won't work; in fact, we had a lengthy discussion about that, and the current text on Xliponia is the reflex of that. In my eyes, the current version is acceptable, although the question why XL wasn't usurped by the Ottoman Empire still needs to be answered.
Don't forget one thing: when I joined IB, it was little more than the British Isles, the NAL, Nouvelle Francie, Montrei, Dalmatia, and a few other places on the world. The whole common effort of world history building started mostly after that. If Xliponia had joined in 2002, or 2003, it could have participated in that process. Now, with most of all this history set in stone, the requirement is a different one: adapt, or leave. Ronald has been doing his best to adapt, indeed, and I understand perfectly well that that's not easy for a country that already had a history when it joined IB. There is still some work to be done in that respect, but I'm sure we'll find a solution for that. --IJzeren Jan 19:19, 19 November 2005 (PST)

Modern Persia

I've got most of the history of Persia down now, up to modern times. Following Ytterbion's Rule, much of it is tweaked stuff from *here*'s Iran, and I'd appreciate it if it could be checked over for QSS-ness. Also, I'm not sure on what modern Persia should be like. I've been toying with something like an essentially theocratic Zoroastrian state with the Shah as a puppet, or a peaceful, prosperous 1st world nation which rivals even Europe. Thoughts? Deiniol 14:51, 20 November 2005 (PST)

I'd go for the prosperous option. We don't have that much non-western powers so it would be good. It doesn't prevent a strong religous presence but it could be similar to the british situation (i.e. the head of state is the religious leader).--Marc Pasquin 15:48, 20 November 2005 (PST)
Agreed. --IJzeren Jan 22:55, 20 November 2005 (PST)

Latin Union

Has anybody ever heard of the Latin Union? Apparently, some international organisation for Romance-speaking countries. I stumbled upon it a while back, because the article also mentions Brithenig and Wenedyk. A weird thing, and I could never really make up my mind if this is a hoax or not; the number of ghits is not exactly impressive. But anyway, if such a thing really exists *here*, shouldn't we by all means have it in IB, too? --IJzeren Jan 02:30, 21 November 2005 (PST)

Can't comment on whether or not it's legit *here*. I suppose something like it còuld exist *there*, but I'ld hope it would be a cultural organisation and not yet another supranational quasigovernmental organisation! Such a thing would certainly bind in confraternality a larger number of countries *there* than it would *here*. "Latinity" is certainly more widespread, what with Helvetia, Kemr and RTC all taking part. [PB]

Holy Roman Emperors?

Do we know much (or anything) about the HRE's between Napoleon and GW2 and post-GW2? Nik 20:35, 21 November 2005 (PST)

Well, we have Wilhelm I and Wilhelm II, and I suppose they were not only kings of Prussia but also emperors of the HRE. Recently we had a discussion about the emperorship after GW2, although I don't remember on which page. My own suggestion was that the emperor is elected from among the German monarchs for an established and relatively short period of time. No names yet. --IJzeren Jan 05:06, 22 November 2005 (PST)
That was (I think) on the talk pages of Prussia. Zahir 08:35, 25 November 2005 (PST)

Slvanjek and its adjective

I'm done replacing "Slevan" as a language name with the Template:SLVL and its corresponding adjective with Template:SLVA, pending possible future change(s) of the native name of the language. Please use these two templates when referring to the language! For now the two templates have the same content, but as that may change please keep nominal and adjectival use separated! BPJ 04:36, 22 November 2005 (PST)

New Pictures

For those interested, I have added a number of Pictures to Zarahemla, Alouicious Dobbs, Marie-Claire Gildersleeve and Paris-sur-Mizouri. Your input is appreciated. BoArthur 12:48, 24 November 2005 (PST)

Well, what kind of input would you expect? Nice pics! Hey, but I dó have one suggestion: wouldn't you try making a page with all Louisiannan city names with their equivalents *here*? As a stupid European, I'm not thát well-oriented in North American geography, and I couldn't tell off-hand what the equivalents are of Paris-sur-Mizouri, Zarahemla, Toulouse, etc. --IJzeren Jan 08:30, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Sure. I'm sure that there are some americans that wouldn't know where these cities were without a page like that. Where you would you suggest I make such a codex? (And if you're not keen to wait, they're Jefferson City, MO; Denver, CO, and Tulsa, OK respectively. BoArthur
The relationship that those cities have with *here* would be a good idea (even if just a note on the talk saying "this is IB's equivalent of .... "). How much did you change them apart from the addition of the Eiffel tower ? (which I would assume to be a relatively recent gift from the mayor and people of Paris) --Marc Pasquin 14:51, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Well, Jan, that's not so bad. Most Americans can't tell where any of those cities are anyway. As for where to put the list: just make a page with the list and link it from the main Louisianne article. I think there's an info box for "other cities" -- that would be a dandy location. Also, if you have a paragraph that talks about cities, link to the list from there. [PB]

History of Flight

I wish to make a proposal about invention of the airplane. Everyone knows that *here* it is claimed by the Wright Brothers, even though abundant documentation, including a moving picture made on the occasion, proves the Brasilian Alberto Santos Dumont took off on his own engine power and flew, in Paris, on the 23th of October 1906. At the time the Wrights were still trying to take off without catapults. Santos Dumont also perfected the dirigible, and is widely credited (except in the US, of course, but especially in Brasil and France) as the "Father of Aviation". It is true that dirigibles have greater power in IB than airplanes, but maybe this is all the more reason to have a special place for old Alberto in Ill Bethisad. He would have been born in the state of Minas, Brasil (corresponding to *here*'s state of Minas Gerais in Brasil). I would appreciate suggestions, even expecting heavy artillery from North America... Kyrmse 06:08, 25 November 2005 (PST)

Well, I'm from North America and I for one...see nothing wrong with this at all. Zahir 07:30, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Eh? Well, it's obvious that the only real inventor of flight was Anthony Fokker, and now don't start telling me that only the Dutch think so! ;)))
Seriously now, I can't see anything wrong with your idea, so please go ahead and elaborate. My own next article will be about the Schumann Brothers, which has nothing to do with aviation at all. --IJzeren Jan 08:27, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Jan, please delete my article on Alberto Santos Dumont, which I saved erroneously. The first man to fly an aeroplane was, of course, Alberto Santos Duval, about whom I just wrote. Kyrmse 09:54, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Sounds good. The Wright *there* probably didn't get as much publicity so as to overshadowed the first flyer. They are probably just remembered as the first NALian airmen.--Marc Pasquin 14:51, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Well, the Wright Brothers do still deserve credit *here* for first flight, even if Dumont deserves credit for the first unassisted flight. Still, that has no bearing on *there*. For that matter, maybe the Wright Brothers were delayed a few years *there*, so that they don't even have the status of first assisted flight. Nik 20:55, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Not sure if Ron has his tongue stuck in his cheek, but the Wrights did their deed *here* in 1903. If we want powered, heavier-than-air flight to have been born in France and in 1906, then we need to do something with the Wrights to keep them from trying it out first. Perhaps they could go in for motorbikes or something. I think we'ld be better off having the Wrights otherwise occupied. *Here*, they were pretty hell-bent on getting some kind of machine off the ground -- *there*, they will require other occupations.
Note that "aviation" includes dirigibles as well as aeroplanes, and the Germans were already perfecting the lighter-than-air end of aviation, so "father of aviation" might be aggrandising just a tad. Zeppelins were already proven and in production at the time of Duval's first aeroplane ride. Elemtilas
Of course my tongue is partly in my cheek, but there are strong feelings both in Brasil and in France that Santos Dumont (I'm talking about *here*) wás the first to take off and fly without assistance in a heavier-than-air machine. I would be happy if some North American conculturist whipped up a bio of the Wrights. Maybe they created the Wright-Davidson line of motorcycles, which became legendary (not least because of many movies showing rebellious young people riding bikes of that brand). Maybe they saw what was being done in Europe in the matter of motorised flight and said "Let Duval, Blériot, Lilienthal and the rest have fun and break their bones, we're going to fly on the ground"... Anyone for a bio? Maybe in the spirit of the Schumann Brothers'? (Enjoyed that one hugely) Kyrmse 05:26, 28 November 2005 (PST)
Well, thìs forum is not the place to argue passions and the finer points of who did what first and how. The more qualifications we place on this-or-that event, the farther away we get. I could stipulate that the "first flight" was done by Germany if I stipulate that the machine had to be unassisted, powered and not propeller-driven. I could further stupulate that "first flight" did not occur until 1957 in Russia, by stipulating that the machine must have no moving parts in the engine (be rocket propelled) and must reach and transpass the atmosphere. The fact remains that, historically, Dumont (1904), *here*, got his machine off the ground in the year following the Wright's (1903) machine.
Now, *there*, I have absolutely no problem with his counterpart getting off the ground first, in 1906 or whathaveyou. All I'm saying is that the Wrights will have to be otherwise engaged, as there would òtherwise be no reason why they couldn't make the journey from Aquanishuonigy to Carolina in 1903. Not a problem at all for us to work out! Elemtilas
Not necessarily "otherwise engaged". It could be that they just had greater problems than *here*, so that their accomplishment was delayed a few years. Maybe one of them was injured in one of their early experiments, or they had more trouble getting funding, or a number of other possiblities. Nik 18:17, 28 November 2005 (PST)
Well, being laid up in convalescence ìs one way of being "otherwise engaged"!
The reason why some people in Brazil and France consider Dumont the first man to fly has nothing to do with dates but with the fact that they do not consider the Wright's attempt to be a successful exemple at actual flight (as per their definition) so that by those standards, Dumont *was* the first. The whole thing is about how people define the difference between "unassisted flight" and "falling slowly".--Marc Pasquin 03:15, 29 November 2005 (PST)
Then it's as I said: a matter of stipulations and definitions, which disregard the fact. Regarding "unassisted flight" and "falling slowly", I very much doubt that the average French person is so stupid that they could stand on the deck of the Charles-De-Gaulle and watch a fighter aircraft be launched therefrom and turn around and say "oh, that doesn't count as true flight because the plane does not take off without assistance". [PB]
The difference between the 2 is this: the wright brothers were catapulted, went off the ground then crashed. Santos dumont plane took off (by itself) flew 220 meter at 6 meter height and then landed (on purpose).
Can't realy discuss the "stupidity" of frenchmen but the ease by which unitedstaters got impressed by a crash is quite startling. Maybe all the wright brothers had to do was jump up while flapping their arms and yell "look, I'm flying! I'm flying!"....
I think at this point, I'm just going to leave the discussion as is. Cheers. [PB]

Hannover/English Kings?

In the article on Hannover there is a reference to three English Kings who were also Electors of Hannover. Now, surely that is a reference to George I, II and III yes? But in IB there was no Hannoverian dynasty, right? Or am I all wrong? Zahir 18:23, 26 November 2005 (PST)

I believe so. Certainly the Georges didn't exist *there*. There might've been some other connection, though. The article James IV of England and Scotland states Married for reasons of state to the daughter of German Duke, James IV was evidently not happily married and did not form close attachments to any of this four children save for the youngest, a daughter named Charlotte. The princess never married, but remained close to her father and took up many of her mother's duties after the Queen died in 1755. It was Charlotte who insisted her father try to befriend his grandson, the future Charles III, who eventually succeeded him. perhaps that German Duke was the Elector of Hannover? Nik 20:58, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Well, that makes loads of sense! Zahir 21:01, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Actually, no sooner did I post that then I realized a problem. Hannover followed Salic Law, which meant any children of James IV by that daughter would not be eligible for the throne, being a female line Nik 21:06, 26 November 2005 (PST)
That's okay. I just altered the article so that descendants of the Duke did indeed become English monarchs but not Electors as well. So the families are related still but no English Kings were also Electors of Hannover. Zahir 22:02, 26 November 2005 (PST)


Hi everyone! Looking back in here, and at my Dalmatia and FOIB sites, I worry that those might become, with time, lost due to inactivity. I don't have a great deal of time now to do this, but I would like to move all the content from those pages over here, just to ensure that they are not lost. If people could jump in and move info and pictures from those sites to here, that'd be brilliant. I'll work at it myself, too, as I can, but if it is to be done in less than a decade, I'd really need some help from others! Cheers, Ferko

That's of course one possibility, and I'm perfectly willing to help in moving all the contents of those pages. But if you like, I am also willing to adopt your pages for as long as you need. In that case I'll make all the necessary updates to FOIB and the rest, too. It's up to you. Personally, I'd prefer the latter, because our websites are the place were most of us can really show off, while no matter how nice we make our pages here look like, a wiki will always remain a wiki. I'd hate to see those two pages getting lost, but like I said, it's up to you. If you accept, you would of course have to send me passwords to ijzeren_jan [AT] yahoo [DOT] co [DOT] uk. --IJzeren Jan 05:56, 29 November 2005 (PST)
Alternately, why not move the pages to alternate hosting? I can host them on my webspace, if neccessary (and I'd even give you your own subdomain!), and I'm sure others would make the same offer. Deiniol 06:21, 29 November 2005 (PST)
That's a possibility, too - thanks for the offer! But, I was also thinking about ease-of-browsing. As it is, for much of the Dalmatian info, you have to go off the wiki to the geocities site. I think it would be much more facile for people to be able to coast through the texts with the wikilinks - plus, it'd make it possible to linkify all the texts on the Dalmatia site. As for FOIB, well, some country-entries on the wiki already have flags up, so why not do the same for all of them?
Quite a few flags from FOIB have already been copied into the wiki. But I have three objections against moving the whole bunch:
  • First of all, I feel we are still guests on Muke's server, and I'd like to limit the space we are occupying as much as possible.
  • FOIB has many more flags per country than just the national flag. And that's precisely what makes it different. Moving all the flags to the description page of a country, or region, simply wouldn't work.
  • Like I said before, I think our websites should still be our primary front portal, and not the wiki. Losing the Dalmatia and the FOIB pages would IMO be a considerable loss.
Of course, both pages still need quite some work. I think I'll create a mirror page of at least the Dalmatia page, if you don't mind. --IJzeren Jan 06:05, 30 November 2005 (PST)
I don't mind at all. In fact... if you want to mirror both, and rework them, I'm fine with that too. I'm kinda in a mood to make some more flags, I'll prolly end up doing more obscure CSDS, DC and Dalmatian stuff here and there... maybe.

BTW, I noticed that you created a lot of pages that contain only a (link to a) flag. I would strongly urge you not to do it that way. Not long ago, we've deleted quite a number of stubs that contained little or no info (nothing that couldn't be found elsewhere, anyway). I think we really need to avoid pages that are almost empty, because they simply don't look good. Instead, I'd suggest you to put the links to flags in existing articles (f.ex. all the flags of Upper Nigervolta can simply be placed on one page). If you don't object, I'll try to find a different place for these flags, and delete the pages in question. --IJzeren Jan 06:17, 30 November 2005 (PST)

Currencies for African nations

The article on the Azande Chiefdoms had "CFA Franc" for the currency. Since France *there* uses the livre, would there be a currency called "CFA Franc"? Did France formerly use a Franc? Nik 17:44, 29 November 2005 (PST)

There were coins called "franc" even before the revolution *here* so i would assume the same would hold true *there*. Since the current currency would be a recent this however, in all likelyhood Azande would probably use the livre.--Marc Pasquin 18:01, 29 November 2005 (PST)
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