Lla Dafern/Archive1

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

DISCLAIMERS: The management is not responsible for physical or mental damage inflicted upon our guests, especially when it is caused by the food, by the BioCola, by the regular rioting here, or by any other kind of misbehaviour on anyone's part.
Any similarity to what the Wikipedians call The Village Pump is not entirely coincidental.

NOTA BENE: You can sign your messages by typing ~~~ for just your name and ~~~~ for your name + timestamp.

The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December


First message ever!

Hello, this page is supposed to become our equivalent of the (in)famous "village pump". This first message is meant to be an experiment! Cheers, IJzeren Jan 04:15, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)

Whats the village pump ? marc pasquin 06:08, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)
The place were wikipedians meet informally. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Village_pump. IJzeren Jan 09:02, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)
Sounds very similar to the mailing list concept marc pasquin
In a way, yes. In general, I think it's a good thing if part of the discussion moves from the mailing list to this place. In depends, really: some stuff is better discussed on-list, other stuff can well be handled here. For wiki-related discussion this is certainly the place. Especially for items that don't really fit on the Talk page of individual articles, like categorising. I also think The Pub will make it easier for outsiders to contact us (leaving a message in a wiki is a lot less work than subscribing to an unknown group and then take the step to send a first message, along with an introduction and all that). Cheers, IJzeren Jan 13:58, 14 Feb 2005 (PST).


What about a Louisiannan Ozarque Red? From Chateau Yquem? BoArthur

Why not? Go ahead and add anything to Template:Lla Dafern you like. In fact, I would appreciate it a lot if a native speaker of English went over my text anyway! IJzeren Jan 09:02, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)

The template's been reviewed and it's fine by me. I've added some of the wines to our winelist. (A good, sober Mormon adding to the winelist. What next?) BoArthur

Maybe the Jervan wine offer could be a bit more specific. A dry sophisticated Flingosa, a youthful rose-scented Trawinun or a mellow palate-charming Muosteolun, maybe? (Flingosa is from flinge "soot", in analogy to Riesling < Rüssling, referring to the dark vine wood. Trawinun, Muosteolun = Traminer, Muscatel.) And what could accompany the wine more suitably than a crispy cuehul flammadun? As for the soft drink section, Bio Cola might be worth a mention, albeit with an appropriate warning. ;o) Sorry if I mess up the entry, I'm new to this newfangled wiki sorcery... The Jervan 01:43, 27 Apr 2005
Perhaps a Hindu recommending a nice steakhouse? Or a Jew recommending a good cheeseburger? Nik 19:41, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)
Hey, anyone want a Sea Elephant Steak? Maybe a side of babyback pacific white side dolphin ribs? Doobieous 04:33, 15 Feb 2005
Good idea! Please add that to Template:Lla Dafern! 04:46, 15 Feb 2005 (PST)

Year Entries

(Transferred from Talk:1818)

Do we really need year entries on this wiki? Nik 23:46, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)

I already gave my opinion on Talk:Republic of Petrograd and Novgorod. IJzeren Jan 00:12, 15 Feb 2005 (PST)
Would it not be better on the Timeline or a Castilian History page? AndrewSmith 02:21, 15 Feb 2005 (PST)
I don't see why we need yearly entries here. as Jan said on the link he posted, we really don't have enough Material to go into each year (well, some years maybe, but not a lot, I think). Doobieous
I agree with all of you. I don't think we need yearly entries. We already have the Timeline page. If and when that page gets really big, then perhaps it would be better to have yearly entries. For now, we don't have enough material. Boreanesia 00:54, 16 Feb 2005 (PST)

Well, we just take the years of the main events in the timeline of our overseen nations, and add them in the respective yearly entry... This would give hints on interesting parallels that would be lost if we have different timelines for each nations... Just my personal opinion. Chlewey

Fair enough. That was also the reason that I started the Timeline page once upon a time. My problem with entries for every individual year is that
  • we end up with hundreds of pages, most of which contain very little info;
  • we must éither transfer data from Timeline to those year pages (personally I'd like to keep Timeline intact), ór have the same information twice (not good, because difficult to maintain), ór have it scattered over two places (both incomplete, then).
In short, I can't really see the additional value of year pages, and I wouldn't be in favour of killing the Timeline page either. IJzeren Jan 00:33, 16 Feb 2005 (PST)
We might well convert all years in Timeline as anchors, and then redirect from the year entries to Timeline#YEAR.
--Chlewey 14:56, 16 Feb 2005 (PST)
Don't know if it's possible to make anchors in the wiki without making actual sections. Though, perhaps the Timeline could be dividided into sections for each century, and maybe decades for the 19th and 20th centuries. Nik 15:44, 16 Feb 2005 (PST)
Never mind, looks like Chlewey already had the same idea -- Nik 15:45, 16 Feb 2005 (PST)
I agree regarding the anchor idea. What wrong with sections BTW? If you really don't want a table of contents popping up you can always add __NOTOC__, but in the case of Timeline I think a TOC wouldn't be so bad at all!
As for splitting up Timeline into smaller units: I think we can do that when the single page becomes too big. IJzeren Jan 01:43, 17 Feb 2005 (PST)
I meant, without making a section for each year, which would be a bit much.  :-) Nik 01:57, 17 Feb 2005 (PST)
Well, tried, but it does not seem that the REDIRECT function works with anchors... (test: 1818)... Chlewey 12:13, 17 Feb 2005 (PST) ...it seems we hace to link years like [[Timeline#1818|1818]] (test: 1818)...
Should we delete the individual year entries, then? Nik 12:43, 17 Feb 2005 (PST)
If they appear in Special:Lonelypages, or do not have content different than the respective entry in Timeline... Chlewey 13:17, 17 Feb 2005 (PST)

Name convensions: Monarchs

So far I have been using a name convension for Castilian kings that is, more or less, similar to the one in Wikipedia, this is:

[[<name in English> <ordinal in Roman> of Castile and Leon]]

But usually on the text I use the Spanish name:

[[<name in English> <ordinal in Roman> of Castile and Leon|<name in Spanish> (<ordinal if more than one>)]]

In a few exceptions I use the name in Castilian, particularly for "Alfonso" and "Sancho".

So far I have

quantity name in English name in Castilian ordinals notes
5AlfonsoAlfonsofrom X to XIV
1Alfonso JosephAlfonso José
2CharlesCarlosI and II
2FerdinandFernandoII and IV
4HenryEnriquefrom II to V
1IsabellaIsabel should be Elizabeth in English
6JohnJuanfrom I to VI
1Alfonso JosephAlfonso José
1Mary LouiseMaría Luisa
4SanchoSanchofrom IV to VII

I am using English names in order to have uniformity for kings recognized with the same name. So a Charles in Aragon (local "Carles"), England (local "Charles") or Castile (local "Carlos") would all be listed under the same name "Charles".

However I am not sure if this is the right approach. Somehow I would like to have Latin names instead of English names.

--Chlewey 15:48, 6 Mar 2005 (PST)

I still think a good idea to have a unified set of names. I am using English now (with exceptions), but I think latin would be a better idea. Of course, redirects is a good idea too.
--Chlewey 13:02, 7 Mar 2005 (PST)
Even using a single name, the question still arises of numerals. If Juan III of Castile and Leon is also Joao IV of Portugal, do you call him John III or John IV? - Nik 21:05, 7 Mar 2005 (PST)


Where have all the flags gone? All I get is their filenames, no images. Deiniol 06:03, 15 Mar 2005 (PST)

Could be that they've moved it, as they've long threatened. BoArthur 07:35, 15 Mar 2005 (PST)

Who are "they"?

Ferko, Jan I and/or II. I loaded them just fine today, though. BoArthur

Well, I have been having problems with my site (where many of the flags at IBWiki came), which I hope I will soon solve. --Chlewey 18:14, 18 Mar 2005 (PST)

ISO codes

Could someone please tell me why the page ISO Codes was deleted? I noticed that by accident when I was looking for some piece of info... Cheers, IJzeren Jan 03:12, 21 Mar 2005 (PST)

It seemed that there was concensus that it didn't fit in IB. BoArthur
No kidding! When was that discussed? I can't remember anything of it! IJzeren Jan 00:40, 22 Mar 2005 (PST)
Years ago ... we didn't have an interlinked webwork or whatever back in those days. I think they could have been useful for international postal exchange, though. Elemtilas


This discussion has moved to Old Xliponian Proposals.


I plan on upgrading the wiki from 1.3.11 to 1.4.1 on Tuesday morning [American time]. Your wiki service will be interrupted, but hopefully not for too long. —Muke Tever | 22:39, 17 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Thanks Muke, for letting us use your wiki, and 2, for taking such care of it! BoArthur 20:35, 18 Apr 2005 (PDT)

No problem :) The upgrade should be complete now; let me know if anything weird or broken happens. —Muke Tever | 09:19, 19 Apr 2005 (PDT)


Why is it that I can't see comments I leave on talk pages? I add a comment but on the actual talk page nothing appears (for me at least)- but when I open the page for editing again- there's my comment. I wonder if I'll even be able to see this. Deiniol 12:19, 4 May 2005 (PDT)

I addressed this issue on Talk:Xliponia. I don't know why and when this problem emerges, but pressing <CNTL-F5> or just <F5>, depending on your system, should do the trick. IJzeren Jan 12:32, 4 May 2005 (PDT)
I tried using F5 under Firefox to no avail. Bethisadurs using Firefox need to go Edit>Preferences>Privacy and click on the Clear Cache button. Jolly silly place to put it, I thought - andrew.
Try control-F5: it works for me and I'm a Firefoxer. Funny that it's not done this before, though. Deiniol 19:20, 6 May 2005 (PDT)
I don't think CTRL-F5 would work on a Mac... but then, I just disabled the use of cached pages in the Wiki preferences, so I never have to clear the cache by hand. The Jervan 00:31, 7 May 2005 (PDT)
What a bloody good idea! Deiniol 06:30, 8 May 2005 (PDT)

Nations of Ill Bethisad vs. NOIB

A few days ago, I updated the Nations of Ill Bethisad page. Unless I have been sleeping while doing that, the page should be reasonably up-to-date now.

As you will probably remember, we have two pages with more or less the same information:

  • Nations of Ill Bethisad contains an alphabetical list of all states (with many subnational entities listed alphabetically under the motherland in question);
  • NOIB is supposed the contain the same information, only organised per region. Practically, the page contains only links to a region (e.g. Africa), and behind that link one can find an alphabetical list of nations located in it.

A while ago, we decided that this is unpractical, because every change needs to be made twice, while the categories can solve the problem in a much easier fashion. The consensus was that it would be best to get rid of NOIB. Well, as far as I am concerned, that page is ready for deletion. For the time being, the links to particular regions have been transferred to Nations of Ill Bethisad.

To cut the subject short, here is what I propose:

All in all, this means changing quite a lot of pages. Before doing it myself, I first wanted to make sure everybody agrees. Opinions, objections, suggestions?

--IJzeren Jan 13:11, 26 May 2005 (PDT)

No comments at all? In that case, I'll get started one of these days! IJzeren Jan 07:35, 28 May 2005 (PDT)

Have we been spammed?

I found this page that looks very suspicious. The page has absolutely no content. The creator of the page is anonymous, and as far as I can tell he or she has only contributed once -- namely this one page. Boreanesia 23:29, 1 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Yeah, that page was obviously not in order. Well, I deleted it. I'm not going to block the user for the time being; it looks like it was just someone trying to exercise his/her skills, but not like commercial spam or vandalism. IJzeren Jan 00:01, 2 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Our Romanization Policy

In Talk:India I asked about our wiki's official Romanization policy. No comments. The reason I asked was because I would like to begin correcting all the article names and links of Asian countries to conform to IB's international standard Romanization schemes before we have too many articles to correct. Before I start, would anyone have any objections if I changed _all_ the names of Indianized states (including the European enclaves) to conform to the Xrirampur Romanization schemes? Or is there a preference not to apply the Xrirampur scheme to European enclaves? Are there any comments and suggestion regarding the Romanization schemes? BTW, I personally think we can promote the Mandarin page from suggestion to IB fact. Boreanesia 14:48, 8 Jun 2005 (PDT)

I'm wondering about this too, since I've done unofficial Romanizations of things here and there based upon what the Montreianos would do (such as for the language in OTL called Chumash), but I'd like to know if there's an official policy or if there should be? Do we have free reign here, or do we have to go by a standard? Doobieous 15:04 PST 8 Jun 2005
I think there has to be a few standards. E.g., one standard for Indianized states, one for Chinese, one for Annamese, one for Japanese, one for Filipino, etc. We know that the same place can be spell "Xrivizaja" (Xrirampur), "Srivijaya" (English), Sriewidjaja (Dutch?), Schrividjaja (German?), etc.. We need some guidelines telling us how an article or link for a place has to be spelled in our wiki. Boreanesia 23:29, 8 Jun 2005 (PDT)
I'd agree that there needs to be a few standards. Of course, this makes me wonder what I should do for words taken from languages of countries with Romanizations. Would I go with a Xrirampur version, or do a Castilian or Montreiano version when taking them into the lexicon (The Montreiano version of "Xrivizaja" would be "Xrividjaia")? Although, I probably won't really need to worry about that too much, since I haven't even touched Montreiano in ages :). Still, I think that I'll go with a Montreiano standard for indicating the native languages (those I can dig info up on at least) within either AC or Montréi. Doobieous 23:35 PST 8 June 2005
In Montreiano contexts you should of course use Montreiano style romanization/transcription. In international contexts, one ought to use the internationally recognized romanization scheme. Boreanesia 02:51, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
I don't know that there's a specific policy...for that matter, I don't know that we even need one. After all, there's not one specific policy *here*, so why should there be one *there* it should be just as messy there. I think that there are different policies in place, because Nik has his Romanization, there's the southeast asian romanization, and I know there are others out there. BoArthur 18:15, 8 Jun 2005 (PDT)
What? Wait a sec, Dan! Perhaps I did not express myself clearly, although I did say Indianized States. I do not intend to change Japan's romanization scheme, nor do I intend to change Nam Viet's, nor that of Filipinas and the Moluccas. Even *here's* wikipedia has set rules regarding the choice of romanization for certain countries. (See [here]). The thing is, there are no European enclaves in Indianized states *here*, so I have no basis for comparison. What I'm asking is, since all the Indianized states in IB follow the Xrirampur romanization scheme, shouldn't we name the articles and links in our wiki accordingly? And if so, do the European enclaves within these Indianized states follow Xrirampur Romanization as well? Afterall, a number of Europeanized romanization schemes have been proposed for Mandarin. Now I'm assuming that Pinyin is the international standard *there*, and that these Europeanized romanization schemes for Mandarin only apply to European enclaves in Chinese states. If so, then this would mean that even in the European enclaves in Indianized states have their own Europeanized romanization schemes for Indic scripts. What are they? And if we figure them out, shouldn't we apply them to our articles? Boreanesia 23:29, 8 Jun 2005 (PDT)

I have absolutely no objection against using the Xrirampur romanisation anywhere in international contexts. It is the established scientific transliteration after all (now that I think of it, it probably must have been sanctioned by CICEP). But let me point out that most countries/language will rather use a popular transcription instead, that gives a reasonable impression of the correct pronunciation of a name in a given language. That's common practice in the RTC, where they undoubtedly write Śriwidżaja and the like.
And what about the Batavian possessions Aceh, Arakan, Ceylon, Chinsura, the Maldives, and Nagapatnam? I'm sure the average Batavian has never seen anything but the normal Dutch transcriptions, namely Atjeh (now that I think of it, I don't think the spelling Aceh ever made it *there*, not in Aceh itself at least), Arakan, Ceylon, eh... Tsjinzoera?, de Malediven, and Nagapatnam.
As for naming the pages, I would like to ask you nót to use diacritics. They can sometimes mess up with while being edited, and they sometimes make it hard to link to a page. That's why I, for example, have name the page for the city of Łódź Lodz.
Regarding Mandarin: yes, let's qssify that soon. I need to make some small modification in the Wenedyk, though. You (Kristian) say: "Now I'm assuming that Pinyin is the international standard *there*, and that these Europeanized romanization schemes for Mandarin only apply to European enclaves in Chinese states." Why would that be so? If so, why would there be a Wenedyk romanisation at all, since there are no Venedic enclaves over there? I was under the impression that the scheme is used for the transcription of Chinese names into Wenedyk... --IJzeren Jan 01:21, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Yes, I can accept Wenedyk or Dutch transcriptions in Wendedyk or Batavian specific contexts respectively. But I'm still not sure I know where to categorize the European enclaves. For instance, would the Batavian possessions in East India fall under Batavian specific contexts, and thus the article about them should use Dutch transcription? Or are they Indian specific context, and thus the article about them should use Xrirampur orthography?
As for diacritics: Your suggestion not to use them for naming pages seems to be the wikipedia policy as well. Within articles, however, they are essential.
Regarding the Wenedyk transcription of Chinese: I did not expressed myself clearly. What I meant to ask was whether or not the relevant Europeanized transcriptions would apply to articles on European enclaves in China, or would Pinyin be used instead. (The Wenedyk transcripion will obviously apply to RTC specific contexts). Boreanesia 02:51, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Regarding those enclaves: I suppose that should depend on the context, and it could depend from country to country. Look at yourself: you have Monland, which is clearly not the native name, and Mÿan+ Ðaj, which is. Instead of setting a standard for that, I think it's better to leave it the way it is (i.e. depending from one case to another). As for the Batavian colonies: I have no problem with Xrirampur orthography, but from the six Batavian colonies in Asia, I think only Chinsura would be affected by the change. What would it be like in Xrirampur orthography? In the case of Aceh, I'm positive that this should be Atjeh.
Regarding the rest: yes, I agree. --IJzeren Jan 05:34, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Regarding Monland: Well, you see, that's the thing; "Monland" is one of those names that I would consider tentative until we can decide whether it should be spelled one way or the other. Unfortunately, the once so influential Mon language has become an oppressed minority language *here*, and there are not a lot of resources for me to use to figure out what the land is actually called in Mon. It'll no doubt be easier for me just to stick with "Monland", but OTOH it would be nice to figure out the Mon name for the place.
Regarding the spelling of other enclaves: Alright, here's what I'll do (if no one objects). I'll use the Europeanized name and transcriptions for all the article names of European enclaves. For truly native states, the internationally recognized romanization without the diacritics will be use on the article names. Within the articles themselves, I suggest that people use both the Europeanized transcription and the internationally recognized romanization (with all the diacritics) whenever the name is first mentioned, one of which (depending on context) will be in parenthesis. This is, AFAICT, not much different from the way wikipedia does things.
So for example, the article name for the Batavian enclave of "Chinsura" would be Tsjinzoera -- following Dutch norms. Within the article itself, its Xrirampur spelling (which I do not know) will be place in parenthesis at the start of the article.
What do you all think? Boreanesia 11:08, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
I already got used to "Monland", so for me it can stay!
Furthermore, I fully agree with what you propose. I'm having my doubts about Tsjinzoera, though. Within the Batavian Kingdom I suppose it has either an entirely Dutch name ("Willemstad" or something similar) or a heavily hollandised from ("Cinzuur"?). I need to think about that. Suggestions are welcome. --IJzeren Jan 12:01, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Alright, I'll get started.
As for Chinsura, the Dutch *here* aparently never renamed the place. There was a Dutch fort there, however, called Fort Gustavus. (See [here])! So perhaps, if you insist on a Dutchified oriental name, the place is called Gustavsnagor, Gustavnopel, Gustavupoer, or something like that. The Danish-Norwegians *here* had similar names: Frederiksnagore in the Bengal, Christianopel in southern Sweden, Frederiknopel in Danish Guinea. Boreanesia 22:42, 9 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Thanks, those are all good suggestions. Somehow I doubt however if the Dutch would ever come up with mixed names like that. If you ask me, they would éither go for an entirely Dutch name ór for an entirely native one. You say the Dutch never renamed it *here*, well, then I suppose they never did *there* either. "Fort Gustavus" may still be in existence as a township of some kind. --IJzeren Jan 02:55, 10 Jun 2005 (PDT)


Some articles I think can really be deproposalized by now- particularly the Lufthansa page, which has been a proposal now for four months! Deiniol 15:07, 14 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Agreed -- Lufthansa has always been QSS. It was simply a given that there was a major airline called by that name. Of course, the article presents many details we didn't know long ago. Even so, I don't see a good reason to keep such articles as "proposals" for such a long time, unless the content is truly controversial or in need of serious discussion. Elemtilas

Indeed. Mind you, deproposalising an article does not mean that its contents can never be changed anymore; in the case of Lufthansa, destinations can still be added or removed, and the year in which it was founded can always be changed if we can think of a good reason to do so.
So, I think we may slowly start emptying the Proposal page. I encourage everybody (including myself) to take a took at all the articles listed there, and see if there's anything there that you can't live with. --IJzeren Jan 01:28, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)

I have QSSified a couple of Scandinavia-related proposals. I have also QSSified the article on the Mandala system. I personally think a number of India-related articles can be QSSified as well, but that's Benct Philip's domain.
Boreanesia 05:34, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Poll: the usage of diacritics in page titles

Hi there!

Kristian and I had a little chat about the pros and contras of having diacritics and other "funny characters" in page titles. You can read all about it on User talk:IJzeren Jan#Diacritics. Wait, I might as well represent it here:

Regarding those funny characters: Yes, I have to apologize about that. I know I said in Lla Dafern that I would avoid using diacritics in the page title. But then when I was redoing the India pages it occured to me that the Japanese and Francophone pages (e.g. Lousianne and France) use diacritics. So I figured, if they can, why can't the Asian pages? IMO, they're just as important as the diacritics used in pages like Alpes-Argentés, Côte de Châtaigne, and Lùquiù. --Boreanesia 12:35, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Okay, go ahead then and change the redirect into the stub text. As for the diacritics in other pages: I'm not in favour of that either. I think Nik has been using Luuquiuu rather than Lùquiù, no? In any case, these are at least pretty simple to write on the keyboard, but in the case of Xrírampur Romanisation, there are characters that show up only when I copy-and-paste portions of text into a Word document and change the font into Code2000 or something. For what it is worth, in my opinion áll diacritics should be avoided in page names, for the simple reason that you get véry scrambled URLs. --IJzeren Jan 17:50, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Luuquiuu is a redirect to Lùquiù. I think that if a title contains diacritics, a redirect should be made without diacritics. -- Nik 19:46, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Yes, I was just thinking about that too. Let's make that part of our wiki's Romanization Policy. -- Boreanesia 22:00, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Hold on -- I just thought of something! What about the Riksmål character å (a-ring)? Should the ring also be removed? And what about characters like ç (c-cedilla), ß (eszett), ð (eth), and þ (thorne)? -- Boreanesia 22:18, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Well, my position is: no diacritics in titles. The solution with redirects is indeed a viable one, and I certainly could live with it, but it doesn't solve the basic problem that the link to the page itself looks like http://ib.frath.net/w/L%C3%B9qui%C3%B9. Besides, linking to redirects is something that IMO should be avoided in general. Of course, I can also see the other side of the story, namely that it's no fun either if you always have to type [[Luuquiuu|Lùquiù]].
Either Luuquiuu redirecting to Lùquiù or the other way around would work just as well. Either way, it should be possible to have both a convenient URL and avoid requiring frequent use of the vertical line thingy (can't think of the name at the moment) -- Nik 17:16, 16 Jun 2005 (PDT)
How do Scandinavians handle the problem *here*? In the old days, the page about Rigsmål carried the title Rigsmaal. ß can be written as ss, ð as dh, and þ as th. Don't know about ç. The page Thordhur Jonsson fra Hvita is an example of how I would handle it.
--IJzeren Jan 04:07, 16 Jun 2005 (PDT)
When it comes to making webpages intended to be accessed directly by typing in the URL, then it's true that Scandinavians *here* would write å as aa, ð as dh, þ as th, and leave any other diacritic out. However, I think it's different for wiki pages. A wiki is first and foremost an online clickable encyclopedia, rather than a URL. The wikipedia's Icelandic pages, for instance, writes ð as ð, þ as þ, and maintain all the diacritics in titles. Have a look here and here. I wouldn't actually type in the URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor%F0ur-%DEingeyjars%FDsla to get to the wikipedia page on Norður-Þingeyjarsýsla. No, instead, I'd start from a reference page, like the wikipedia's Iceland page, where I would then start to click myself forward to Norður-Þingeyjarsýsla. Doesn't everybody else do the same? If so, shouldn't the same be true for our wiki? I never intended anyone to actually type in the URL http://ib.frath.net/w/Sipsaqan%CC%8Ab%C3%A2n%CC%B7n%CC%B7%C3%A1 to get to the Sipsaqan̊bân̷n̷á page. Instead, they can click themselves to the page from the Southeast Asia page. I also suggested this to Benct Philip in Talk:Xrirampur Romanization with regards to the Indian pages. I do not think diacritics should be such a big problem in a wiki. --Boreanesia 08:52, 16 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Hm, I often access pages by typing in the URL. And I also often access them by using the "search" function. Now the latter works of course with the funny characters, except here we have a distinction: I can make a þ or an á directly from the keyboard, but not an . But I have to admit that your arguments certainly hold sense.
Why not create a little poll in Lla Dafern about the issue? If you agree, I'll set up one. --IJzeren Jan 16:01, 16 Jun 2005 (PDT)
I do too, which is why I suggested using redirects. -- Nik 17:16, 16 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Anyway, the question is: what should be our policy on the subject? The way I see it, there are three possibilities:

  • We avoid using diacritics in page titles; if necessary, we can create redirect pages that dó contain them.
  • We allow diacritics in page titles; if necessary, we can create redirect pages without them;
  • What do we need a policy for? Let everybody decide for himself!

Needless to say: 3) is the current situation.

Come to think about it, isn't #3 basically the same as #2? "No policy" means that if someone wants to use diacritics they can, and if they don't want to, they don't have to. Which means we'd be allowing diacritics for those who'd prefer to do so. - Nik 13:19, 17 Jun 2005 (PDT)
I have to admit that you are right. Now that I think of it, "allowing" was not the best way to phrase the question; I should have said, that our standard modus operandi is: 1) no diacritics in titles, but possibly in redirects; 2) the title corresponds with the subject, all diacritics included; 3) no policy. By "standard" I mean that we have an agreement that this is preferable, not that it is compulsory or whatever. I'm not going to "allow" or "forbid" anything! --IJzeren Jan 16:27, 17 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Enter your logon name by typing ~~~ in your preferred category. You always have the possibility to add a comment and/or to create a new category.

Let's not be too formal about this. This is the IB wiki, not Wikipedia, and this is a poll, not a vote. It's merely a way to collect some opinions and get an impression of what the groups preferences are.

Regards, IJzeren Jan 01:14, 17 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Avoid diacritics in page names

  • IJzeren Jan (but I'm not in favour of creating hundreds of redirects)
  • The Jervan
  • Jan II.
  • Doobieous (I'm a fan of not using them in page titles. Oddly it seems some of the diacritics won't show up as anything but squares. I use Firefox and even have it set to UTF-8. The Indic languages romanizations were an example of this for me until they were corrected.

Allow diacritics in page names

  • Ronald Kyrmse (I am very partial to ç - witness e. g. Ançec)
  • Boreanesia (Diacritics are necessary for Riksmål, French, Icelandic, and a number of other languages, and they do not cause any problems in Wikipedia, so why should it in IB-Wiki? Even if they show up as squares for some, this need not stop others from using them. As a matter of fact, I cannot see the Khmær script at all -- I only see squares! Yet, I'm the one who wrote the article about it!)
    • Ah, that's a relief (I thought it was just me seeing squares)! But to avoid confusion, let me point out that this poll is only about page titles, not about using diacritics in the articles themselves. FWIW, diacritics are also necessary in Wenedyk. Yet the page about Łódź is under Lodz. --IJzeren Jan 08:49, 17 Jun 2005 (PDT)
      • Well, we're not talking within the articles, *just* page titles. No one's saying you can't use them within the article. Doobieous
  • Nik 11:17, 17 Jun 2005 (PDT) But with redirects from the plain-latin version (i.e., Ancec redirecting to Ançec, Luuquiuu redirecting to Lùquiù, etc.)
  • Deiniol Can I put in a request though that we stick to diacritics which are easily typable on most Western European keyboards- I at least can type þ, ð, ā, ă and so on with relative ease, and are rather more tricky. I also second nick's point about plain-Latin versions- I'd like to type Sipsaqanbanna to reach that page, rather than over-using my character map!

No policy at all

  • Elemtilas English *there* doesn't use diacritics in a phonological fashion, Kerno is ambivalent and Brithenig can be sensibly written without them -- so, most of the possible names I'd have a chance to use as page titles wouldn't have them at all. On the other hand, I don't see any reason why sensible use of diacritics should be disallowed for those as want them. I also think it would be móst sensible for those of us with with unusual diacritics to do as Jan et al. have done: use plain letters for the page title and / or redirecting.


Well, it seems like there's no clear majority for either of the options. Since there is no clear majority for actively avoiding diacritics in page titles, it's obvious that we can't forbid them. In other words, we'll keep the situation as we have it: that it depends on the writer of the article of the article which solution s/he chooses.
Personally, I can live with that. The Dutch wikipedia has recently switched its policies from avoiding diacritics to allowing them, so I suppose the objections are overcomeable. I'd still recommend following Deiniol's suggestion: that we allow the relatively simple European stuff like þ, ä and ā, but avoid tricky stuff like and (personally, I just see n followed by a box in both cases). --IJzeren Jan 15:05, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

I agree. What you'll see from me in page titles are letters like ç (in Xliponian (and Portuguese - the LAU, remember?)), the Portuguese-Spanish áàâãéêíóôõúüñ and the German äöüß (Can't think of others). Certainly no þān̊n̷! Kyrmse 15:13, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)
As the only fence sitter (best view, after all!), I'ld like to approve the conclusion: title pages should be allowed to have diacritics with the caveat: PROVIDED THAT they are the common sort that will show up on just about any screen of any surfer or Member that happens to be looking. Frankly, it looks sloppy to have boxes in the page titles, and I think we ought to avoid that. This is also a good idea vis-a-vis the search function -- if that doesn't accept weird diacritics or if I can't imput weird diacritics (or possibly ány diacritics), then the search function becomes useless.
This means, of course, that those of us who make pages with "fancy" titles, need to also make a redirect with plain text or light diacritics. Elemtilas
Now all we have to do (would that this were all!) is deciding which diacritics (and characters without diacritics, such as þ) are light and which are heavy! Kyrmse 19:32, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Like Jan, I don't think þ and ð are "heavy". I'm in favor of using redirects using Deiniol's suggestion: that we allow the "relatively simple European stuff", and this means allowing þ and ð. Non-European stuff such as the Vietnamese or Xrirampur characters can be written without the diacritics in redirects. Might I also again suggest that we allow "heavy" characters in page titles provided there is a redirect with, as Padraic puts it, plain text or light diacritics? I think using redirects would be the best compromise. It would allow those of us who wants to use diacritics to use them, while still allowing those against them to avail of the search function without having to worry about special characters. Boreanesia 03:03, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
How about classifying the lower end of the Unicode range as "light" (say Latin-1 and Latin Extended A, i.e. 128-383)- I don't think anyone should have problems displaying them. Modifying diacritics and IPA symbols should definately be considered to be "heavy". Deiniol 03:33, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
I agree. It seems like we have found a solution that is satisfying to everybody after all! --IJzeren Jan 10:56, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Keeping in mind that this solution is to accomodate the search function as well as keeping the titles themselves "tidy". A good basic list might be something like: áâàä (plus the other four vowels, exclusive of y) æçñþð -- and I probably missed a couple. That should include just about everything but the most unusual diacritics, and naturally will exclude a certain Indian romanisation scheme! :) Elemtilas

Self-introduction: Arj

Good evening, everyone. My name is Arnt Richard Johansen. Some of you may know me as a conlanger and/or a Lojbanist. I've been aware of this project for quite some time, but have only followed it closely since it moved to this wiki. Sorry for adding a comment on Talk:Kong Christian a few minutes before adding this self-introduction, contrary to stated policy. Hopefully, no-one will notice. :-) Arj 14:20, 25 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Welcome, Arnt! Boreanesia 10:11, 27 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Welcome on my part too. A bit late, but you made your entrance one day after my son was born, so I think I'm excused! :) Anyway, I do remember you. You are from Norway, aren't you? --IJzeren Jan 14:56, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Font Sampler

To all those who would like to have a short text written in a specific typeface without having to install (or worse yet, buy!) the font:

Open the Linotype site here, write the font name next to Search near the top left corner, click Search, and - when the font sample comes up - click on Create sample below the sample. The window that opens is self-explanatory and lets you create text in specific fonts, sizes and colours, which can then be copied off the screen with the Print Screen key. Kyrmse 12:14, 28 Jun 2005 (PDT)

In fact, this is how I created the text fot the CICEP logo, using a font called Blue Island. Kyrmse 05:21, 29 Jun 2005 (PDT)

The Romans in Britain

Check out this for an interesting discussion on when the Romans "invaded" (or not) Britain.Note that the whole matter is still very much conjectural... but of the utmost importance for us! Kyrmse 04:52, 30 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Siovilge -- Too Cheezy?

Anyone insterested there's movie landscape please read the third paragraph here [1] and tell me whether it's too over the top even for IB standards. Consider this part of the page to have PROPOSAL status for now. Otherwise I might start working on an image of the hillside logo.  :))

I don't mind the name Siovilge, or the idea that there's a hillside logo, or that Jervaine makes a lot of movies and television series. I just hope you don't only use American movies and television series as your basis like you did with Wigi. There are lots of excellent French, German, and Dutch movies and series you can borrow from. As for experimental movies, I wonder if Siovilge supports the Scandinavian Dogme 95 movement, since it is very much anti-Hollywood *here*. Boreanesia 12:42, 7 Jul 2005 (PDT)
OK, I see the point. I chose Wigi, Xarveluc and Wisse in Commeirdsone because I'm particularly fond of them (at least the latter two), not to make a political or geographical statement about Jervan filmmaking. I'm all for using European productions too -- it's just that I don't know that many such productions myself. I'm afraid I generally prefer Hollywood mainstream over "experimental" stuff, quite contrarily to what would be proper for me as an educated European.  ;o) Though I did like Italian for Beginners. And Padraic has already snatched Amélie for himself...
Oh, and don't forget Jaunge Blone, taken from here's English movie domain. The Jervan 08:59, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)
I agree with Kristian. The name is cheesy, but hey, there's nothing wrong with a lighter note here and there. What is important to know is that undoubtedly Hollywood itself exists *there* too, but that movie-making in IB, like many other aspects of life, is not restricted to one or two huge centers. I think the situation *here* (you have two kinds of movies: American and non-American) does not exist *there*. --IJzeren Jan 14:59, 7 Jul 2005 (PDT)
I don't find it particularly cheesy. I see it as just an example of wee likkle eensyweensy Jervaine trying to make a name for itself. In this case, on the coat tails of the Alta-Californio moving picture industry. If they've been able to make a go of it -- so much the better for Jervaine!
RE: "Wigi" -- IB is by no means a perfect world, and its entertainment sector is bound to produce B or C rate programmes like that. To me it suggests that Jervaine's movies, like its vinegar...er, WINE, ought to be taken with a grain of salt. ;) This is not to say they don't produce some gems -- I understand they produce some fine animated features, for example. Elemtilas
Animated features? Hmmm... maybe PIXAR should be Jervan, then? ;o)
Also, you're confusing something here. Wine is not to be consumed with salt. That's Tequila. I understand it must be hard for Kernow to make the distinction, what with the abyssimal quality of both there. The Jervan 01:53, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)
I think that if anything, the Alta California movie industry is probably around the levels Hollywood was *here* between the 1930's and 1960's-- Not nearly as massive and money making as today, but nothing to scoff at either. You wouldn't see so many of the block busters H-wood puts out in OTL, but you'll get a few big hits. My guess is that there's also a lot less fluff, since you don't have lots of high power execs and producers to fund them, the money just isn't there to produce crap. [Barry]
Oh, and by the way: the same name happening twice (like Hollywood - Siovilge) happens more often in IB. Look at the various occurrences of Clinton/Claintaun/Klętoń/etc. --IJzeren Jan 00:22, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)
FYI: The reason Hollywood here is called that was due to the wife of H.H. Wilcox naming a now subdivided part of Rancho La Brea "Hollywood", after the name of the home of a woman she met on a trip who in turn named it after a Dutch settlement called "Hollywood" (probably a translation from Dutch into English).
The second, and most popular origin is that it was named after the ample Toyon bushes (Heteromeles arbutifolia) that grow all over the coastal ranges of California. They have deep green, somewhat spiny leaves and in winter they have bright red fruit, which is a great substitute for English Holly. In English, Toyon is called "California Holly", hence the supposed name "Hollywood".
I myself prefer the later as it's a lot more interesting, despite being incorrect! The most probably name of the area where movies are made in AC would probably be the name of the ranch where it is located: La Brea or Brea (which is SO not attractive when you know what "brea" is: tar or pitch). If we pick the folk etymology of the name, then we get Los Toyones Doobieous 01:17 8 July, 2005, PST
If the Californian Hollywood there has the same name and hillside logo as here, I won't reproduce it in Jervaine, that would be really cheezy. If it's called La Brea, Siovilge would be no problem. Even if it's Los Toyones (cool name BTW), maybe Siovilge was (nick)named after it. The hillside logo would have to go, though, that would be too imitative... it's not like the Jervan filmmakers need to ride along in the wake of Californian success. The Jervan 01:53, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)
I like Los Toyones better than La Brea (which is unattractive and really applies in my mind to the old ranch). I doubt there would be a big sign on the hills above it, so if your Jervan filmmakers want a sign saying Siovilge above that city, so be it. I wouldn't want the sign above Los Toyones because I find the current sign a bit tacky, and like you said, that would be a bit too imitative. Doobieous 09:01 8 July, 2005 (PST)

The Menu (above)

Coke?! What's that? Certainly you mean BioCola... Kyrmse 07:44, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)

BioCola doesn't take the place of Coke here, it's more of a freak drink. I don't know about Coca Cola, but it might as well exist in IB, though certainly not as globally dominant as here. The Jervan 07:56, 8 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Multilingual IB Wiki

Is there a possibility of perhaps opening a version of the wiki in Brithenig, Jovian, or somesuch language? It would add an air of multiculturality to the place, after all. Joe 11:07, 11 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Nie chciałem zdradzić tajemniczki, ale jestem już od jakiegoś czasu w trakcie tłumaczenia strony głównej w języku wenedzkim! Oops, that was Polish. What I wanted to say is that I have been working on a Wenedyk version of the Main Page.
The basic idea is good. I think the Main Page is the only page suitable for such a multilingual version. I'd encourage versions in other languages, both nat- and con-, provided that the translator is able to keep up with eventual changes in the front page.
--IJzeren Jan 13:37, 11 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Bloody good idea! In all IB's conlangs at least (I shall get onto the Arvorec version directly-ish!) Deiniol 14:24, 11 Jul 2005 (PDT)
The other advantage is that it provides a very useful vocab-building exercise. Joe 14:35, 11 Jul 2005 (PDT)
That could be fun! And true, it _is_ a great way to build up your vocab! BoArthur 22:03, 11 Jul 2005 (PDT)

An nane say against it, it bethink me ta mak an IB-English version o the headpage. Joe 14:03, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Well, the Xliponian version is on-line! (Took me long enough) Ánd I have put links to it on the English, French, German and Portuguese pages. Sorry, couldn't do the remaining ones. Your turn, all! 8^) Kyrmse 14:25, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Done: Dutch and Wenedyk. --IJzeren Jan 14:27, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Thanks, Jan, for changes on Pażna Przączypała and Hoofdpagina, linking to Facina Fraihip! Kyrmse 14:28, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)

IB English

The page in English would also have to be redone. IB English is different than English in our timeline. Boreanesia 02:20, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

In this case I would prefer a duplicate page: one in English, one in IB English (provided that the differences are sufficient). Let's not forget that the English Main Page is also our front portal to the Big Bad Outside World! --IJzeren Jan 10:55, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Tryinde my hand at IB English, I do not þink þe differences would be sufficient to warrant a different page. It would be like þe differences betwene British and American spellinges *here* such þat readinde it ought not prove difficult to þa or þe outside world. Boreanesia 23:29, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
If þis is what IB English looks like, I'd say it looks quite a lot more different from English than American English does. And then, we have anoþer problem: which IB English do we follow? It seems like we have at least two IB Englishes: Padraic's and Joe's! --IJzeren Jan 23:52, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Yea, þe differences are a little more þan betwene British and American *here*, but my point is þat it is still readable. As for which English to use, well, we could have a little of all IB Englishes in þe page. Þere is, afterall, no single standard *þere*. Boreanesia 00:21, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
We could of course stage a little edit-war betwene Padraic, Joe and whoever else likes to contribute. Þat would be quite an innovative and original way to get to a result! :) But I'd like to use a separate page for þat, not ÞE Main Page. --IJzeren Jan 00:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Alright! Great! I can't wait to see what Padraic and Joe come up wiþ. I'd start it myself, but I would only be guessinde as I am and have been doinde above. Perhaps my form of IB English is what is taught in Scandinavia. ;) Boreanesia 01:21, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Okay, I've just created a Main Page in IB English. Now let's see what comes out of it. IB English people, do wiþ it as you please! Once it's finished we'll see if it is still close enough to "normal" English to replace the original Main Page. Good luck, play it rough and be nice to each other! For now I've only replaced all occurrences of th by þ (which prompt us to an interesting question: have we all become members of Ill Beþisad all of a sudden?) --IJzeren Jan 01:38, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Umm, no. I think that as a loanword, Ill Bethisad would stand as is. Anyway, I'll put in my twā pænigas for the IB English page as well I think ;o) Deiniol 04:27, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Yes, loanwords are tricky. Happily, my variety of IB English doesn't use medial thorn (or at least it does but sparingly), so Bethisad didn't pose a problem. For the most part, there were few differences between my version and the one placed earlier. Mostly it involved relacing capital thorn with TH, which is typical of all three regions of English (though Northern uses "Th"); a couple minor differences of interpretation, unaccentuated "them" -> "em" and some minor rephrasing which I might have done even if I were editing the real Enlgish Front Page. Clearly the writer of this verion of the page is from the Borders somewhere on account of his (somewhat inconsistent) replacement of S, F by Z, V.
Samples of this English can be found elsewhere on the Wiki, for example here. --User:Elemtilas:Elemtilas
Actually, I wonder if this version in Sowthron wouldn't warrant a separate Main Page. Just curious: where does the S > Z, F > V change come from? It reminds me suspiciously much of Dutch! --IJzeren Jan 09:21, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
*Here* at least it's a common change in the Westcountry. Deiniol 09:28, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Well, I'ld not be against having ALL the main varieties of English in *there*'s England represented. We know there are three main varieties: Northern (which encompasses *here*'s Scots, Geordie and Northumberlandish); Midlands and Southron (which of course encompass the East-Midlands and Southern of *here*'s England, noting that there ain't much land for "Southern" to happen in -- eastern Berks and western Shropshire is about it and there's no Westmidlands at all); Kentish and Wightish. Both the latter are, I think, quite minor in comparison. There being no real "Southern" *there*, I wonder if it and Midlands don't form a sort of continuum. I think there must also be a curious dialect in Cumberland, after all, it is a traditionally Cumbreg-Brithenig speaking area, possibly with some Cumbreg speakers still hanging about. Or at least, people who thìnk they're speaking Cumbreg...
In any event, we ought to take some care in creating the varieties of English *there*, so they don't end up too much of a mish-mash. And don't end up too different from *here*! Elemtilas
Well, we certainly don't want five Main Pages in five different varieties of English. But there's nothing wrong with two. Okay, now that we're discussing IB English: so what's American English like *there*? --IJzeren Jan 11:49, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
For the most part, there is mùch less difference between Right and Leftpondian *there* than there is *here*, reason being, the two lands never severed cultural ties. I'ld say that the differences are negligible, mostly comming down to borrowings. I suspect that American English is full of Native borrowings, perhaps even more than *here*. There's also room for the usual borrowings from Spanish, Brithenig, Kerno, French, Seferadi, Swedish, etc. Other world Englishes vary. I think some work has been done with Oregonian English. I suspect that one would find Australian and Aotearoan Englishes to be similar to *here* as well. The latter especially would probably be much more susceptible to borrowing. Elemtilas

Flags of Ill Bethisad

... needs serious updating! Kyrmse 08:27, 12 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Yeah, I know. The problem is the Ferko, who maintains FOIB, is far from reachable at the moment. So I guess it will take another while... --IJzeren Jan 11:00, 12 Jul 2005 (PDT)


Yes, the trend seems to be catching on! I envisage a special Swadesh page on IB Wiki - maybe with the extended, >100-word list - for all to play (?!) with. Kyrmse 12:28, 12 Jul 2005 (PDT)

1200 articles!

I guess we're all to be congratulated - a hundred dozen! Kyrmse 09:05, 13 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Yeah. Just imagine that it was slightly more than 600 when we moved to this place, about five months ago! IJzeren Jan 12:36, 13 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Keeping with IB fashion, we shouldn't celebrate until a greatgross articles is reached, i.e., 1728! Elemtilas
1200! That's more articles than many of the smaller Wikipedias. Deiniol 07:58, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)


On Frathwiki, I found the interesting notion of Creative Copyright. See Frathwiki:Copyrights. I'm wondering in how far this could be a workable solution for ourselves. Any opinions? --IJzeren Jan 14:55, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

I think it could work. Did you review the Creative Commons site to read more about this license type? It seems there are many different combinations that could be put into effect to both allow our own creative tentacles to reach out (say in selling a short story or novel or movie) while at the same time restricting the grubby paws of Outsiders from doing the same without permission.
Any other comments? Whatever course of action is chosen, it needs to be by concensus. There is no PTB with the power to force this kind of change on the whole project. Elemtilas

South America and Lusoamerican Union

There is going to be a rewrite of the Lusoamerican Union, as well as the pages on South America, Bahia, Brazil, Equador and Paraná, whén I get the time, in the light of a historical text on SA that Chlewey put onto my user page discussion.

I believe I can consider myself to be the regent of the aforementioned countries - BA, BR, EQ, PA - and the LAU, as well as (of course!) XL. As if I didn't have anything else to do...

Kyrmse 07:28, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Well, only if you wánt it, of course. Carlos is in charge of South America as a whole, and has done a lot of work on the history of the continent. That shouldn't be contradictory to someone else being in charge of a specific South American country. If you live in São Paulo, and Paraná is unclaimed by anyone else, and you have ideas about it, then please consider it yours! It's not like that obliges you to produce an output of minimally 1000 words a day. It also won't change that fact that your homestead remains Xliponia. --IJzeren Jan 10:52, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

"Scandinavian" in the Main Page languages

I need your help to translate "Scandinavian" into the various languages into which the Main Page has been translated into. I think I manage English, German and Francien myself! BPJ 07:11, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Well, in Dutch we have Scandinavisch, in Wenedyk Skandynawik. That's all I think of right now! --IJzeren Jan 07:17, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
German: Skandinavisch, Portuguese: Escandinavo, Xliponian: Qantinavic, French: Scandinave or (better as a language name, IMHO) Scandinavien. Kyrmse 07:27, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Scandinavien would be the appropriate language name. It's Norvegien, Danois and Suèdois. BoArthur 16:43, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
"Scandinavian" is normally Sênsyc in Arvorec. Literally speaking, this means "Swedish", however. For Riksmal, the Arvorchedeth would probably say either Sênsyc, Scânec or Reysmâl- take your pick. Deiniol 10:52, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
How come it is "Swedish" that becomes "Scandinavian" in Arvorec when it mostly were the Danes who went viking in those parts? C.f. Old English where the blanket name for all versions of Old Norse was Denisc! BPJ 14:01, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Probably because the Viking marauder who seized power in the Isles, Brand Ulformson, was a Swede. Deiniol 15:58, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Jovian: Xaennaeva.
Montreiano: Scandinavo


Should we archive some of Lla Dafern? BoArthur

I've been pondering an Archive here within the Wiki for some time, so thank you for making the suggestion! Old bits -- those whose discussions are now moot or out of date -- can always be stuck in the Archives section. That page itself should be dedicated to the categorised list of subarticles. For preference, these subarticles should include dates when known and should also be categorised. For example, the discussions as to whether Xliponia ought to have a place in IB or not are now moot as XL has been made part of IB. Those discussions could be moved to an article called "Xliponian Proposal Discussions". That title itself could come under a "Proposals" header.
I also don't think that the Archives should just be limited to Lla Dafern materials. Any old, out of date, now sanctioned proposals or fly-by-night ideas can be safely stored here. Perhaps taken out from time to time to look at them. It is also a good place for newcommers or interested passers by to peruse. Elemtilas
First, regarding Dan's suggesion: yes, I agree. It takes more and more time for Lla Dafern to load on my home computer with dial-up connection. But frankly, I wonder if it's really worth the effort yet. Only subjects 1-10 are really suitable for archiving; the other half are still too fresh and too actual.
Regarding Padraic's idea: not that I want to be a spoilsport, but what's the point creating lots and lots of new articles containing nothing but old bits of discussion? Archiving itself is definitely A Good Thing, and this discussion is certainly worth to be had. But in my opinion the content of Old Xliponian Proposals does in no way warrant a separate article; if you ask me, this stuff should be moved to Talk:Xliponia, preferably on the correct chronological position, in this case at the beginning. If someone is ever going to look for that piece of text, this is where he will probably start looking. And basically, that is what the discussion pages are for.
My second favourite alternative would be something like Lla Dafern (2005, February-May) or something. I think we should do that anyway, because not all stuff in Lla Dafern is suitable for being transferred to a Talk Page or a new article for the Archive.
As for categorising subarticles in the Archives section: yes, they need to be categorised properly, but I wouldn't misuse Category:Proposal for that. For the example you give, I'd suggest something like Category:Archive and Category:Xliponia instead.
Finally: a small request from the bartender of Lla Dafern. He likes to archive things and to remember how things were exactly. When we move something from Lla Dafern to another place, he would appreciate it when we don't just make it disappear, but substitute the text with something like: This discussion has moved to Old Xliponian Proposals. See above for a demonstration.
Cheers, IJzeren Jan 22:50, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Oh, and one more thing: some things IMO are really not worth archiving. As far as I am concerned, a thing like Front Page Proposals#TOC can safely be deleted. IJzeren Jan 00:00, 19 Jul 2005 (PDT)