Lla Dafern/Archive 12

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

DISCLAIMERS: The management is not responsible for physical or mental damage inflicted upon our guests, especially when it is caused by the food, by the BioCola, by the regular rioting here, or by any other kind of misbehaviour on anyone's part.
Any similarity to what the Wikipedians call The Village Pump is not entirely coincidental.

NOTA BENE: You can sign your messages by typing ~~~ for just your name and ~~~~ for your name + timestamp.

The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December


i is a gangsta

i is a gangsta i is liking bling

i dont understand illbethisad what is nal what is jacobia what is kemr

what is elemtilas i dont understand

this is lik a messup verson of wipeda, wipedia rocks dont copythem

uve messed up all of history youve put things rong your page on belarus is rong its rong

there is no snor there is no cabal

if u want to diseev us and confus us make yoor jokes at uncycloedia not here dont diseev us

Huh? Zahir 09:43, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
Just some wanker trying to sound like Ali G. --Marc Pasquin 09:57, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
Hi! Could you go to the conculture mailing list, please, as if you'ld had the patience to read above there is no editing at the minute. Also, did your English teacher never tell you to remember your capital letters and full stops? We're not trying to decieve anyone; this is an alternate history, a work of fiction. Can you start by telling us your name and how you found this site? --Quentin 10:23, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
This wasn't even worth your time to respond to folks. You do realize that, don't you? BoArthur 07:37, 3 July 2006 (PDT)

Problem with Proposal/Delete?

Okay, for some reason everything that had the Proposal tag suddenly also got the Delete tag. Via experimentation, I've learned that if you remove the Proposal and then put it back, the article is no longer listed as a candidate for deletion. This is probably the awkward way to do it... Zahir 20:56, 1 July 2006 (PDT)

What is to become of the IBCF?

So, with the editing restrictions in place, what is to become of IBCF? --Sikulu 04:18, 5 July 2006 (PDT)

Won't we be able to edit the talk pages still? If so, then there won't be a problem. We can also discuss things on Conculture...and really, I think the IBCF has pretty much stalled out, and there hasn't been interest enough to keep it lively and going. :( BoArthur 06:31, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
I have hopes that will change. Do we have enough input to declare the Austro-Prussian War to be essentially complete? Zahir 09:48, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
It was mostly the effort of Jan II and Kristian, and Jan was waiting on Kristian's efforts. I think that we could safely move away from the APWar and let Kristian and Jan hash that out while we delve into something else for a time. BoArthur 10:40, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
Me agree ;) Jan II. 23:15, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

The problem with IBCF is that it doesn't really match with How We Work. In fact, things are much easier than that: someone writes a message to Conculture, saying "Howdy there, folks, I have a neat idea about _____!", and what should follow is a discussion in which all interested parties participate. That's how it always has been. These things don't really need to be planned, or organised. It's just a matter of somebody starting a subject. In other words, announcing subject X as the official item of discussion for week 49 is slightly against the nature of IB.

The idea was nice, but let's face it: it's a typical Wikipedia thing that (sometimes) works when you have hundreds of people interested in the subject. In our little project I'm afraid it will never really work. And it has one additional flaw, too: the ultimate purpose of such a collaboration is an article by definition, and frankly, articles as the main target of our activity is precisely what I hope to get rid of. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 08:16, 7 July 2006 (PDT)

Website: Direction Centrale des Renseignements Généraux

The following was received through the ethers:

I'm pleased to announce the first page of the RG for international travellers on the web. This will aide tourists visiting France to be aware of potential risks to them. Safe Travel Wishes, Jean-Pierre Raffarin

The page is found here. BoArthur 11:12, 5 July 2006 (PDT)

Now I would have expected Cravethism to be on the list of dangerous cults! I like the Solas Teoranta logos, too. Deiniol 15:29, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
Wow, all of those sects are considered dangerous? France seems lawless, from that list :). Doobieous 17:07, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
The list is from *here*; it needs to be adjusted. How many adeptes are there to Cravethism? For that matter, how old is it? If it's old and "established" it would not be on the list. BoArthur 20:11, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
Ah. Well. It's been around since 420 CE, so it's fairly established now! Deiniol 06:52, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
Aren't the ST logos also present on Marc Pasquin's website? --Quentin 03:43, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
Yes. I got it from him and added the black background. BoArthur 06:12, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
Centre de Therapie Dalmatie? What the fnord is that??? :D (Prolly some braniac scheme of Tommy Pavelic's trying to discredit Dalmatia...) ;) Dalmatinac
Not something I came up with...this whole list is directly imported from *Here*. BoArthur 20:10, 18 July 2006 (PDT)

New RTC page

At last I've decided to move my stuff from my Geocities page to my own webspace, and incidentally to jazz it up a little. In the past, the ads weren't so bad, but the current construction is plain awful. So, come and have a look at my new RTC homepage: http://steen.free.fr/rtc/ . Most links aren't working yet, but at least you'll get an idea. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 13:30, 5 July 2006 (PDT)

Vèry nice! It all looks curiously "old" as well, which is actually quite pleasing. I likes it! However, if you want a larger version of the IB logo, try this one here: [1]. PNG's are a bugger to resize and tend to go pixelly. Deiniol 15:20, 5 July 2006 (PDT)
Thank you for the logo, it looks much better indeed! And yes, I was actually exact intention to make something that looks "curiously old". :) In fact, I picked this font only as a temporary solution, because I wanted to experiment a bit with all kinds of ancient blackletter fonts. I was also looking for a nice art-nouveau font, but couldn't find what I was looking for. But now, I quite like my temporary solution! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:03, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
Very good indeed. I especially like the ticker-tape. Keep up the good work, and look forward updates. --Sikulu 06:28, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
Ticker-tape? BoArthur 10:35, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
I suppose you're referring to the marquee text? Not bad, eh? In fact, I'd like to ask all of you to translate the name "Republic of the Two Crowns" into as many languages as you can... I'll add them all to the marquee text! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:03, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
nice lay-out ;) wish you to have emough time and will to go on. also, i have noticed, that wenedyk is in progress. never ending story, hey? ;) i am currently over new nassian iteration and currently working on vocabulary; you wouldn't recognise it ;) nasëku vesemirü > nasiku iisemeerü, is it slavic at all? :D Jan II. 23:25, 6 July 2006 (PDT)
Hehe. Well, in fact I haven't touched Wenedyk at all since February or so! Anyway, transferring pages from the old to the new format is not much work at all. It's just a matter of having a good template. I've also (finally) decided to switch to CSS: I've got so many pages that are supposed to look more or less the same, that it doesn't pay off to code everything by hand anymore.
I'm curious about the new Nassian. What is its current name? ;)) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:03, 7 July 2006 (PDT)
haha, current name ;) ook, the english is same, nassian, the nasian one is nasiku ensükü. the last iteration of nassian went to disapearance of consonant "v" and some more finnisatiation (am still digesting the discussions with Jussi from last summer and this spring, when he was in Brno). finally, I have collected all relevant books on reconstruction of early common slavic + late indo-european, although still some questions are unanswered (declension of original demonstrative and 3rd person pronomina in ECSL); but I must go over it, I cannot spent my life pushing professional slavist to share their knowledge to what they are quite resistant (I know already too much to bluff that I am just interested in slavic history and when they recognise that I am conlanger, I am swiftly moved to category "junk" and not answered anymore; many such contacts happened). I am also still quite interested to elaborate potential vozgian-nassian history, but real life is quite demanding; becomeing recently associated professor, my carrier is turned into paper-work exclusively, no lab science anymore, thus all this poisons my brain and evenings I am not able to open the notebook and start to conlang, cos my brain is blocked ;) I am using private summer vacations (my wife is in Italy now) alone at home to progress ;) anyway, nassian is phonetically slightly more finnic, but still more slavic in vocabulary than any other slavic language. Jan II. 02:14, 10 July 2006 (PDT)


One of the things I like about Marc Pasquin's website is it makes IB seem "real". Wouldn't it be fun if we spread out that on all of the websites, with those Solaris Teoranta logos? --Quentin 03:43, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

I don't know, it depends on each person I guess. One of the reasons why I prefer wiki over the websites is because it is easy to understand that this wiki is about IB, not the real world. I remember once searching information online about something and I thought I found some history webiste and I was reading it and found out about some things I never heard of but these things were quite plausible, so I thought "it's interesting information, strange that I never knew it" and so I continued to read on until I stumbled over a sentence something like "When the World War 3 started in 1980(...)" lol. It seems that was some alt-history thing. So I don't know if it is very good when it seems that it is real, but, I don't think it is bad either - after all, there were people who attempte dto correct this wiki as well as they thought it is meant to be real. So I guess it depends on each webpage owner. Abdul-aziz 03:57, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

going for vacations

although I do not think that there will be any IB-newbie editorial invasion into Bohemia or Nassland, I hereby declare myself to leave the band for 5 weeks (14th July - 20th August) without possibility to check web or mail and I whole-heartidly insert our fellow colleague Jan van S. as a temporary vice-governor to these territories. have a nice summer/winter, guys, whereever you live. Jan II. 02:20, 10 July 2006 (PDT)

Have a nice holiday Jan. --Sikulu 06:18, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
BBC News Desk--This just in. A fanatical pro-SNORist Coup has taken Nassland. They have changed the name to Johnny Nash Land. It is expected that Mr. Nash, a campy singer from the NAL will be crowned king by the SNORists. The actual leaders of the country are on holiday in Barbados, but will be returning to quite the mess in about 5 weeks. ;) Happy vacations Jan! BoArthur 07:07, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
Hee hee. --Sikulu 07:15, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
We could be real mean and temporarily replace his Nassland articles with Johnny Nash Land articles, such as the above. ;)))))
Elemtilas 20:35, 10 July 2006 (PDT)
(ITARF) - MOSCOW, 11 July. President Arensky has pledged his full support to the new regime in Johnny Nash Land, both morally, economically and militarily. To effectuate this, 500,000 Russian troups have crossed the Russian-Nassian border about one hour ago.
Happy holidays, Jan! :))) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 03:56, 11 July 2006 (PDT)
WTF! It is summer, how we can employ the general's Manërëm winter tactics now? We must delay those pesky Russians till winter and then we can defeat them! Nassians, forwards! Nasinaki, üpperämö! Eh, no no no, backwards, to the forrests. Ne, ne, ussamo, üleesöm! Oh, gosh, such a war in the beginning of holidays... at least the newspapers wouldn't starve from halcyon days. Cheers, guys! Jan II. 01:32, 12 July 2006 (PDT)

Reality Czechs

OK, OK! There are some pages here that are simply unrealistic!

Why do you think so? Ok, some of them are a bit too close to *here's* version to be fully realistic, but we are also here to enjoy ourselves, not just to perform some intellectual execrise. I, personally, am more interested in cut-and-dried facts, and my althists reflect this, but the cultural aspects of IB make it more "human" rather than just a textbook. --Sikulu 06:18, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

Deseret has a long history, and the facts that have been brought forward about its existence are good support for it. I would tell you to read the articles in the conculture Archive. Deseret isn't something we just whipped up one day. It's been an issue that's been discussed for a long time, with many ins and outs. I've been working with Barry on it since I joined the group.
As for South Florida happening too fast, you do realize that they've been under Irish and RTC Occupation for nearly two years, and in that same time *here* the US has begun backing out of certain areas of Iraq, leaving them autonomous. How is that too fast? You'll note that there is only one autonomous region. While there are others moving toward autonomy, you must remember that "hand-off" dates are very often let to slip. I don't think we'll have another autonomous territory before late fall.
Unincorporated Territory; why anything? Why the United States of America? Why France? Why all of that. Why the Northwest Territory of Canada that was never cobbled into something more regimented and governmenty? It just didn't happen. Why is Puerto Rico not a state? Because they enjoy being a territory and the benefits that come with it. There's a lot less demanded of a territory than a state. That's my take on it.
As for the religions, I'll let Padraic speak to that. BoArthur 06:33, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
Well, the Unincorporated Territory in many ways parallels a similar state that exists in Canada. South Florida seems to make sense to me, given the time frame of the Florida War (2004) and when you look at our history regarding such places, when the occupying powers want to leave and help set up a new political system before they go. My impression is that South Florida is far less violent than, say, Iraq so the job would be at least that much easier. Oahspism is rather obscure, and seems to be reproduced because it is more prominent in IB than here. The Wicca article notes that religion in comparison with an IB faith. Zahir 07:35, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
Indeed. When we first heard about the NAL, the westernmost provinces were in the Appalachians and Ohio Valley. Beyond that was the Northwest Territories, which were assumed to be lightly populated; and beyond that was the terra incognita of the UT. Elemtilas
Coming to your qualms again, why, exactly, do you think they're too fast/unrealistic. I'd like to see your take on things because you've got "fresh" eyes to look at things. What, specifically are your qualms with these, because they may well have value. BoArthur 07:49, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
Quentin, the article on Wica is almost exactly what happened *here*- the only differences being that *here* Gardner didn't convert on his deathbed and Doreen Dominy changed her name to Valiente. What then, pray tell, is so unrealistic about it? Deiniol 10:38, 13 July 2006 (PDT)
If Cravethism exists, Wica seems very implausible. After all, people would immediately take offence at it. Also, the reconstructionists are not as prevalent with Cravethism and Romuva as standard religions. On the UT, much of S. Alberta and Sasketchewan is highly populated here (relatively). Shouldn't it, at least, be a state? Or is it part of Louisianne? I suppose I better leave South Florida and Deseret alone a little, but what's the FLDS? As here? We seem to have quarms of quasi-Mormon groups. --Quentin 04:51, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
I tend to agree that Wicca is quite unlikely. But perhaps we'll find out that Gardiner was trying to "recreate" the British Paganism that is presently extinct (basing his sect on the Cravetheck model) -- rather than trying to piece together bits of long dead religions without any modern models to go on. Re the UT: those places may not be so heavily populated *there*. Much of the place is made up of Native statelets that are overseen by the Company (the HBCo). Why would they want provincehood and all the difficulties that entails when they get to be practically independent and are well looked after to boot? Louisianne's borders are very well defined. LA does not stretch that far north. We have quarms of quasi-Mormon groups because one of our more prominent and prolific members is himself a Mormon. (Likewise, we have Crevetheck and similar because one of our prominent and prolific members is a Pagan.) Elemtilas
Alberta has a large population in large part because of the Mormons who fled the United States during the time that the LDS church was practicing polygamy and the US government was prosecuting them. That is why Southern Alberta and Ciudad Juarez in Mexico are populated *here*. Because the Mormons and the Hutterites found safe haven in Louisianne, there wouldn't have been so much settling on their parts.
Given that these colonizers didn't colonize, it would be much more sparsely populated. Alberta and Saskatchewan would be populated, but not as strongly, given the better treatment of Indians, overall, through IB. That's my take on it. Others may disagree with me.
If you've never looked at Wikipedia's article on the Latter Day Saint movement, you should. The FLDS are *here* a splinter group in a great deal of trouble with the Federal Government, based along the border of Utah and Colorado. Their "prophet" is wanted by the FBI on the top 10 most wanted list. That's why there are just as many or more "quarms of quasi-Mormon groups."
And don't leave Deseret and South Florida alone; if you have a real qualm, bring it up, unless our thoughts and explanations seem reasonable. BoArthur 07:07, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
Ever heard of "Jews for Jesus" or "Black Muslim" ? Just people could take offence would in no way prevent a group from creating its own religion that derive from another. Wicca is quite probably something that appeal more to non-armorican and/or amrorican youth that see cravethism as "too stuffy" or too much linked ethnicaly with the isles.
regarding the UT. population is not always a factor. There is 6 time more people in the Montreal Urban Community then on Prince Edward Island, the first is a city, the seond a province. Also, while there might be a lot of people in it, its quite possible that they are less densely grouped then *here* and in any case, could be split among thousand of ethnicities (amerindians and immigrants) which do not wishes to be lopped in together. As Dan point out, some group could find it more advantageous to stay that way.
Finaly, about the mormons, Dan is the expert but from what I recal, there are only 2 mormon groups you hear about regularly: the mainstream one (mostly in Louisianna) and the militant fundamentalist in deseret. --Marc Pasquin 07:10, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
Marc's quite right about Wica. Just because the "real thing" exists, it doesn't make the existence of an "imitation" any less likely. For example, *here* there are plenty of Hindus but that doesn't stop the Hare Krishna movement moving on in leaps and bounds. And yes, there are probably not a few offended Cravethists at the existence of Wica, but then again, there are a lot of Hindus offended by the existence of the Hare Krishnas. So your objection has very little to stand on. Deiniol 07:41, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
Re Oahspism, note that it is a religion *there* -- not just an esoteric and long forgotten book. North America in the XIX century was every bit as religiously prolific as *here*. What's different is that you can look up "Oahspe Churches" in the local telephone directory, at least of any sizeable city in the NAL, and find a church. Just like you can find Mormon churches *here* (another product of the XIX century's Great Revival, and I'd say the greatest by numbers and overall effect); or Christian Science churches or Jehova's Witness kingdom halls or any number of (quasi-)Christian groups. IB just happens to have rather a few more such movements. I've only documented the Christine Church and Oahspism, though the latter in not much detail yet. Dan has done a bang-up job with the LDS Church.
Re South Florida. We've been going on about South Florida for about three years now, maybe four. "Real years" -- not just fictional years! Things can happen quickly because the world is a modern world: communications are not instantaneous, but are rapid; travel is fast; carrying capacity is large. When you can dump a whole frickin army on the field within a couple days (via high capacity airships) and dominate air and sea a smallish powerhouse like Florida-Caribbea stood no chance whatsoever. Atomic bomb notwithstanding. What has happened since has come to pass over the course of a couple years. It didn't all happen last week you know! Elemtilas 15:20, 19 July 2006 (PDT)

I noticed that some use a blown up version of the wiki logo. If you want a sharper version, I had uploaded one a while back:


--Marc Pasquin 10:36, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

That would be me, I think. Thanks, I'll use this one instead! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:23, 14 July 2006 (PDT)
I never name names. --Marc Pasquin 11:46, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

Technical question

I've done some experimenting. It is indeed impossible to create a now account. But what I'd like to know is this: how can a sysop/bureaucrat/whatever create new user accounts? I haven't been able to figure that out yet. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 05:16, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Webring problems

I just added some webring stuff to the Main Page. But there seems to be a problem: all links pointing to the webring give some kind of error. Anybody knows what's going on? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 10:37, 26 July 2006 (PDT)

Looks like alt-webring themselves may be down; it won't let me log in, either, so...there you go. BoArthur 11:56, 26 July 2006 (PDT)
The webring is working again. And the wiki is now part of it! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:48, 30 July 2006 (PDT)

GW2 question


I noticed on slight oddity on the map to the right, which I had overseen before, namely that the Papal States are coloured in green. Now, wouldn't it be a little odd for the Papal States to be part of the Allied camp? If you ask me, it's typically one of those countries that would always remain neutral! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:24, 27 July 2006 (PDT)

Also, why would the Two Sicilies be a part of the Allied Camp, but not Aragon, despite the fact that they're ruled by the same monarch? (I'm not sure if the two nations (as well as Riu de l'Argent) have seperate foreign poilices though.) --Sikulu 06:07, 27 July 2006 (PDT)
The papal states might have joined the allies for defence purposes. Since unlike the vatican *here* they have a bit of land (and being an actual country), they might have feared being eventualy invaded by the germans (who by and large not being catholic would probably not have had qualms about it). Its contribution might have been more in term of staging ground for other armies, supply or the like.
Aragon and the Two Sicilies are probably just in a personnal union so the status of one doesn't involve the other. Similar probably to *here* having Australia and the UK joining in the invasion of Irak but not Canada despite all 3 having the same queen.
One oddity for me, why aren't the FKs green ? --Marc Pasquin 09:57, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
This map represents the period when Lord Halifax was leading a government that, in the wake of the Dunkirk disaster, was negotiating a seperate peace with Prussia. A "war party" in the FKs sabotaged these efforts and brought the KF back into the Allied Powers following Halifax's resignation. Zahir 15:36, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
Maybe then the FKs could be coloured red or add a note stating what grey stand for.--Marc Pasquin 16:00, 28 July 2006 (PDT)
Well, in fact I think the current colour is well-chosen. The FK was not neutral, but more like a neutralised Allied Power. But it's true: an explanatory note would be helpful. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:07, 30 July 2006 (PDT)
I like it this way, as it shows it is in a transitory stage: Not quite an Ally, but close. Seth 3:03 31 July 2006

Problems with Jamaica

I've been thinking lately about Jamaica during my recent research into a new althist, and I've been having some doubts as to whether it would be ruled by England. It was captured by Sir William Penn (sr) (Venebles didn't manage much). Since Penn the Elder was born in *here's* Bristol, and due to the fact that the Penn family stock came from Wales, I've come up with the following possibilities:

  1. Jamaica was captured by someone else (i.e., someone English), and/or at a diferent time
  2. Jamaica was captured by a "Gwilim Penn", and thus is ruled by Kemr (since Kemr rules several other areas in the Greater Antilles, like the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands)
  3. Jamaica was captured by a joint Anglo-Kemrese force, and thus is ruled by both in a condominium-like agreement, not unlike Pennsylvaania

Any thoughts on this? --Sikulu 06:33, 22 June 2006 (PDT)

The closest thing would probably be making it Scottish. Or, that it was Scottish in the past and at some point handed over to England. But I'm not sure how much either option would infringe on QSS. That would be up to Padraic! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 08:03, 11 August 2006 (PDT)
Personally, I'm more in favour of of option 1 or 3. --Sikulu 08:18, 11 August 2006 (PDT)
I got the feeling that Padraic Fiatted/Ukazed this and said, end of story, it's english, find a way for it to work. BoArthur 08:50, 11 August 2006 (PDT)
So, option 1 then. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 08:56, 11 August 2006 (PDT)

I'm back!

I'm back! And just in time for some major events.  :-)

So, how come this is Talk:Lla Dafern now? Nik 20:37, 11 August 2006 (PDT)

Welcome back, Nik! You've no idea how much we've missed you during the recent discussions!
Haven't you checked in here at all during the last few months? In that case, I suggest you read The June Revolt; it will give you a pretty good idea of what's been happening. The short version is that dissatisfaction among the older IB members about the course IB has taken since we move to the wiki led to a lenghty discussion about what can be done about that. The final outcome of this was that virtually all discussion has moved back to Conculture, while the editing of articles is restricted to "editors" (basically all IB members) and talk pages can be edited by registered users. And it isn't so easy to become a registered user anymore!
Because Lla Dafern should be as open as possible (i.e. not only for editors), we decided to use its talk page instead.
Welcome back again! Any news from Japan and/or NAL-annexed Florida? ;) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 00:08, 12 August 2006 (PDT)
Dan told me a little about what was going on. Oh, and sorry about that accidental editing of Lla Dafern itself. The "leave a message" template still directs you to Lla Dafern itself, and I didn't realize what had happened. There will be some news from Japan soon! Nik 19:17, 12 August 2006 (PDT)
Ah, indeed, forgot to change that in the template. Fixed now!
Looking forward to the news! Cheers, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:22, 13 August 2006 (PDT)
me 2 ;) need to read the holiday traffic to be up-to-date Jan II. 00:12, 21 August 2006 (PDT)
Welcome back to you too, Jan! Latest news: a nuclear device, presumably a bomb, has been set off two days ago in the very heart of Johnny Nash Land. Probably by mistake, an experiment that went wrong or something. The whole country has been completely annihililated, and an estimated 99.93 % of the population died in the accident. The 1.3 million Russian troops that were stationed there died as well. Russia hoped to annex the country on short notice, but has now officially decided to abandon that idea, because it won't serve any purpose anymore. The huge atomic cloud that was the result of the explosion is currently settling over Bohemia. Cheers! ;) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:13, 21 August 2006 (PDT)

And I'm back too, for more detals, see my upgrade personal page. Follow by white rabbit 15:19, 22 August 2006 (PDT)

And welcome back to you 3! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 12:04, 23 August 2006 (PDT)

Antarctic Claims

Since I've been making some historical maps of the world for IB, I'm wandering exactly when each nation which lays claim to a part of antarctica actually did so. --Sikulu 08:56, 29 August 2006 (PDT)

That's all unknown, unfortunately. It simply hasn't been discovered yet. So if you want to make an assumption, you better follow the QAA principle (i.e. everything is more or less like it is *here* unless explicitly stated differently). Much as I appreciate your work, and much as I don't want to discourage you, I have to warn you though: maps like these are bound to become obsolete once new discoveries are made. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 07:55, 30 August 2006 (PDT)
Oi vay and the work! I'm telling you, Llewelyn, it's a bear. I've had to redraw _so_ many times. :) BoArthur 08:24, 30 August 2006 (PDT)

Concerning the Penns after the above discussion...

Who's the namesake of Pennsylvania, then? Here it's William Penn the younger, son of Jamaica's Penn. If the Penns would be Cambrian, perhaps a Gwilelm Penn too? And also,why the Cambria/England condominium thingy? --Quentin 01:22, 1 September 2006 (PDT)

One possibility is that it began as two separate colonies that were unified after "The Black Year" during some early effort to federate the Kingdoms' colonies. --Marc Pasquin 09:54, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
The colonies of Pennland and Sylvania, maybe?  :-) Nik 18:22, 1 September 2006 (PDT)
I assume the Kemrese/English condominium thingy is a reflection of *here's* Welsh Tract being more successful *there*. Deiniol 15:32, 2 September 2006 (PDT)
Makes more sense, I suppose. Can we have a Gwilelm Penn, then? And with its close proximity to Castreleon, would Bristol really be a viable port? --Quentin 04:53, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the World Maps (Australasia & Meuva Sefarad)

2 small points:

- Aotearoa only joined Australasia in 1951 (Based on the ANZUS treaty *here*).

- Previous mention I made of what is the mainland part of MS had been made assuming it became part of it around the begining of the 19th century (part of settling the borders of ex-New France's territories following the french revolution). If it happen later, it should be explain what happened in the intervening years. Its highly unlikely it would have stayed a disputed territory (between NAL and NF) for so long.

A possibility is that the mainland portion contained a separate colony of jewish settlers who might have moved there from the island sometime in the 18th century. They revealed themselves had the same time but unlike their islanders brethren, requested admission right away to the NAL. When the Island joined after the War of 1898, both part were finaly united.

--Marc Pasquin 10:20, 1 September 2006 (PDT)

However, the point about Aotearoa is that is says in the article that it joined Australasia in 1901. --Sikulu 07:21, 4 September 2006 (PDT)
Not exactly (although I might have worded it badly).What it says is that the *colonies* (as in places that were settled and mainly occupied by the FK) joined together (all those on australia, van diemens, norfolk, etc...). Aoteroa is not a colony but a freely associated state. --Marc Pasquin 18:13, 4 September 2006 (PDT)
Addendum: after writting this I realised you were talking about the Aotearoa article and not the australasia one. I didn't wrote the former and whoever did probably took what I wrote on the Australasia page to mean that. So, just to be clear, Aotearoa joined in 1951. I'll correct that page right now. --Marc Pasquin 18:20, 4 September 2006 (PDT)
Thanks Marc. I'll do that correction allong with a few modifications regarding SE Asia prior to the Great Oriental War. --Sikulu 07:50, 5 September 2006 (PDT)
Interesting possibility about the mainland portion of MS. Why would it have been disputed before that? I always thought that the northern and eastern borders of NF were set by NF itself, because for whatever reason they had no interest in spreading beyond that. -- Steg, a.k.a. Boroparkpyro 04:18, 5 September 2006 (PDT)
The reason for the "disputed" tag was to preserve both QSS and QAA. *Here* that part would have part of New France and so logicaly would be inherited by New Francy. Since we know that in modern time its not (and that it would be doubtfull MF would have invaded it), having it being disputed explain why no one would have gone to war over its loss (no point in claiming a land already inhabited by a civilised nation). Because as I mentioned a long term (century-long) dispute would have probably resulted in a war at one point, having people occupying both land around the turn of the 18th century resolve the problem. --Marc Pasquin 08:00, 8 September 2006 (PDT)

Mailing list

As I am back home, I would like to join it now. As I have never joined any mailing lists in past, I am not sure what to do. Where should I apply? Abdul-aziz 09:52, 7 September 2006 (PDT)

To join, you would send a blank e-mail with the word subscribe as the subject to this address:

[email protected]

You'll want to make sure that you change your settings to Digest or No Email if you're going to access it from the web, because otherwise, you'll get a LOT of e-mail, and that doesn't make for much fun. BoArthur 10:40, 7 September 2006 (PDT)

How would I change those settings? (I'd be using gmail) Abdul-aziz 12:47, 7 September 2006 (PDT)
it's under edit membership once you've logged into the group. BoArthur
Ok, I have subscribed Abdul-aziz 09:58, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
So, to send something to all the subscribers of the mailing list I should send that to [email protected], right? Abdul-aziz 11:31, 9 September 2006 (PDT)
Precisely. You should be able to have it pop up immediately...I've gone in and removed the need to moderate you, so, be on your best behavior. ;) BoArthur 13:19, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

Confederacy or Empire

Hi everybody, I was looking at some maps of what is Germany now, and there was a period from 1818 to 1870 called German Confederacy. So, my question, what is a difference between German Confederacy and Holly Roman Empire? And how is it different *there* at IB?

Lordziba,September 9 2006.

In the real world Napoleon dissolved the Holy Roman Empie and set up Rhine Confederacy (in this confederacy many smaller members of the Holy Roman Empire were combined to form larger units, therefore there were less units overally). After the Napoleonic wars, the German Confederacy was set up there, which included many small German states and only parts of Prussia and Austria. Later Bismarck unified most of these lands (with the exception of Austria) and some additional lands into a single German state. In IB however as far as I understand the Holy Roman Empire was never dissolved and therefore continues to exist as it originally was (although as I understand the ammount of administrational units is still lower in IB than was in the real world Holy Roman Empire). Abdul-aziz
Someone who knows, please weigh in, but I was under the understanding that Napo did conquer the HRE *there*, but didn't do what he did here, and simply reduced the number of states, thus less nobles to deal with, I think. This is the fuzzy area of history for IB, methinks. BoArthur 13:18, 9 September 2006 (PDT)
Exactly how did the Hapsburgs end up with Austro-Dalmatia, exactly? *Here* they fled from Napoleon and kept the title of Emperors of Austria. *There*, I think, people say the Emperor is elected. Is that right? --Quentin 04:55, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

Regarding GW2 Armies

Interesting, I was looking at some military books about World War 2, and found some formations sort of like Armiya Ludowa – a Polish Army a puppet of Soviet Union, or even Russian Liberation Army in head of Vlasov. My questions “there” in I.B., during GW2, were any similar formations, sort of imagining SNORist German (Holly Roman) Legion, or anti-SNOR backed by H.R.E., I donno, Russian Liberation Army, or for that matter any governments in exile? Any opinions would be welcome.

Lordziba,September 10 2006.

Lithuania's government in exile was in its fromer Antarctic area, New Lithuania (which is now known as Free Lithuania). During 1939-1942 it ruled that area as the sole remaining land of Lithuania, but after 1942 it remained only government in exile as it was deposed as an actual government in New Lithuania. Abdul-aziz 04:08, 11 September 2006 (PDT)


I thought Grand Fenwick was the smallest country in the world, am I wrong? --Quentin 00:19, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

You are right, I have corrected it now. Abdul-aziz 04:06, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
Thanks. --Quentin 04:52, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
By Smallest are you meaning population or land-area? Monaco might be smaller... Per Wikipedia, Grand Fenwick is 3x5 miles and Monaco is 0.75 square miles. I think in IB it's different. What does Padraic say? (Since Grand Fenwick's been his little corner) BoArthur 12:56, 11 September 2006 (PDT)


Should someone fix the link in the sidebar so it points to this page rather than the redirect? Or is it fine as it is? --Quentin 00:21, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

Chinese League

Do they manage Zhong Nanjizhou too? Or just the Chinese East Africa? --Quentin 00:23, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

I think they do. --Sikulu 07:26, 11 September 2006 (PDT)


We could do more about the Janus people. As its the 5th anniversary of the dreadful day, who are they, where are they now?

  1. L Don Hobarth sounds suspiciously like L Ron Hubbard. Is this intentional?
  2. Are these Janus still popular?
  3. How long around are they?
  4. Were these people well known before 9/11?
  5. Are the people in question still around?
  6. Does Dianetics exist? --Quentin 04:51, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
The whole Janus Foundation was an attempt by yours truly to somehow account for a version of 9/11 happening in IB, as had become part of QSS but which none of us were really happy with (IB simply doesn't have the conditions that would lead to such a thing). The Janus Foundation is a riff of the kind of semi-cult which has arisen so many times in the XXth century. As such it has a few echoes of Scientology (especially the founder's name) as well as others. I hadn't expounded upon them because I didn't see the need, although eventually I was going to deal with the arrest and trial of certain members. The Foundation is *not* as wide-spread as Scientology. Zahir 13:07, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

Libya in GWII

Just out of curiosity, was Libya a member of the Allies or the Allianz during GWII? --Sikulu 07:13, 11 September 2006 (PDT)

In my map of Africa in 1945 I have marked it as a neutral country and nobody objected it seems, so perhaps it was so. Abdul-aziz 11:45, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
Honestly, nearly everything prior to about 1996 is Terra Incognitum Grandum, so your guess is as good as any. Was Libya neutral *here*? If so, probably so *there*. I don't think we should make any hasty decisions about anything historical, and hold your maps, Llewelyn as "Correct until proven otherwise," just as I've done with my maps. (We're on version 6 of Europe, now...) BoArthur
lybia was an italian colony from 1911 to 1943 (and resisting it most of the time). "Unhappily allied" to Italy might defined it best. --Marc Pasquin 18:46, 11 September 2006 (PDT)
Don't forget, *there* Libya was a condominium between the Two Sicilies and Greece. --Sikulu 06:09, 12 September 2006 (PDT)

Redundant line

IMO the line "Please make sure that you are logged in before changing the content of this wiki. If you do not have a login name yet, this is where you can get one for free." is largely redundant as;

A) You can't change anything without an account B) You can't create an account without permission.

Do you agree? --Quentin 04:23, 17 September 2006 (PDT)

IBWiki namespace

I think that the pages which we all work on should go to the IBWiki namespace, such as Lla Dafern and IBCOTF. It looks a bit messy having Lla Dafern as a talk page because talk pages are usually for discussing the associated page. --Quentin 04:26, 17 September 2006 (PDT)

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