Lla Dafern/Archive 7

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

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The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December



I've done a (partial) proposal about Tenisi. I don't want to try anything more until I can get a few opinions. Could someone check it please? --Sikulu 07:11, 19 January 2006 (PST)

Seems fine to me, but the whole France, New Francy thing still bugs me. I guess I've got a project at hand... BoArthur
What bit is bugging you ? --Marc Pasquin 02:34, 13 February 2006 (PST)

Out of town

I will be out of town for the next week. I'm taking a zeppelin to the NAL province of West Florida, with a layover in Tejas Nik 23:15, 20 January 2006 (PST)

Bye! It'll be good to see if things have improved for the west floridians since Niko Tailleur was down there last. :) BoArthur


I've done a (much better) proposal on the history of communism in IB, if anyone would like to check it, and inform me of any details I might have missed (esspecially about Alayska, Bavaria and Nea Illenicia, as well as any info on the CoDS) --Sikulu 03:30, 25 January 2006 (PST)


Is it Libya or Lybia? If the latter, I need to change some things.Theophilus88

I say go with the former rather than the latter. BoArthur 18:58, 1 February 2006 (PST)
Me 2. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 05:55, 2 February 2006 (PST)

Article Request: Ecotopia

Can we get whomever came up with the idea of Ecotopia to write an article of government type about it? BoArthur

I'll do something about it, if nobody minds. I'd expect some sociallist attributes to creep in somewhere. --Sikulu 03:23, 2 February 2006 (PST)
Sounds good. I would expect whomever came up with the Ecotopias of Cork and Oregon to comment and edit whatever you do come up with, but it sounds like a good project. BoArthur
I've done a proposal. Will people please check it? --Sikulu 08:37, 2 February 2006 (PST)

off topic: man from nantucket

Dan mentioned it on a talk page and I've seen many show from the US make a passing reference to "There was a young man from Nantucket... ". From the context I assume its some sort of dirty limerick. How does the rest goes ? (I can only think of it ending in "getting impaled on a racket"). --Marc Pasquin 07:47, 3 February 2006 (PST)

It's actually, apparently any of a series of dirty limericks, which I don't actually know, but I'm sure anyone with a dirty enough mind could infer... ;) BoArthur
See Wikipedia:There once was a man from Nantucket. The most famous obscene version is at the bottom of the page Nik 20:33, 3 February 2006 (PST)
Limericks are so much fun! One of the Nantucket limericks is
   There once was a man from Nantucket,
   Who kept all his cash in a bucket,
     But his daughter, named Nan,
     Ran away with a man,
   And as for the bucket, Nantookit.
It's pretty clean; but not all limericks are. From Are You Being Served, a slightly naughty one:
   There once was a barmaid from Sayles
   was tattooed with the prices of ales
     and for sake of the blind,
     upon her behind,
   the very same, only in brailles.
As I recall, Capt. Peacock got a very withering glare from Mrs. Slocombe. As for being impaled on a rackett:
   There was a musician named Packett,
   who'd had it, he just couldn't hack it;
     he stood with great care
     on a cane backed chair
   and impaled himself on a rackett.
That one's mine, but there are other versions of it around. Elemtilas 11:10, 3 February 2006 (PST)
   There was a man from Peru
   who dreamt he ate his shoe
     and he woke in the night
     full of fright
   and found it was perfectly true.
BPJ 12:42, 3 February 2006 (PST)
All right, to bring this back on-topic for IB:
   alch geont seorouent ciay di la cina
   alch geont rohouent faues di la lima;
     p' ne m' molests me cran
     que feaiz om 'stran
   doazque om feaiz-ce in rima.
Any other IB limericks? Elemtilas 20:44, 3 February 2006 (PST)

Its an IB but a filthy:

   There once was a man from castreleon
   who thought all isle's men were peons
      he tried to offer a fiver
      to an arvorec to bend over
   so he'd have a place to pee on 

--Marc Pasquin 17:43, 7 February 2006 (PST)

Date and Time

What timezone is frath.net's clock in? Because the front page is saying that it's Tuesday, 7 February 2006, 00:24, while it's actually Wednesday, 8 February 2006, 00:25 here in GMT-land. I've tried emptying my cache and reloading the page just in case the browser was bringing up a previous viewing of the page, but to no avail. Or maybe IB's just one day behind us? Deiniol 16:27, 7 February 2006 (PST)

I believe it's on Pacific time (I think the server's in Los Angeles).BoArthur
Most strange. It says Tuesday, 7 February 2006, 02:03 for me, which is 18½ hours behind my time ... GMT -24.5, yet the times on recent changes are correct for my time zone Nik 18:36, 7 February 2006 (PST)
It's a side-effect from us playing with the IB universe. ;-) Theophilus88 20:54, 7 February 2006 (PST)

News Links


Heehee....I e-mailed this one to Nik... ;) BoArthur 22:12, 7 February 2006 (PST)

Cool! :) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 04:32, 8 February 2006 (PST)


Theophilus88 20:56, 7 February 2006 (PST)


I'm editing pages on africa based on this map: [1] --Quentin 00:25, 8 February 2006 (PST)

Define "editing"? Changing the out-dated articles we have to match those on this map? And, for the record, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself, how you found us, etc.? Inquiring minds want to know. :) BoArthur 01:22, 8 February 2006 (PST)

I'm a Wikipedia editor, who came across this website from Wikipedia. You can find out more about me on Wikipedia here: Wikipedia:User:4836.03/Userpage.

Welcome. As for your introduction... I've tried the link, but frankly, it doesn't give much info at all. What's your name? Where do you live? What do you do? What are your interests? Don't hesitate to treat us on a nice piece of proza!
Anyway, I saw you've started working on Katanga. That's fine, because nobody has ever worked on it. Only keep in mind that the decimal system is rather unpopular in IB (except for some strange country in North America ;) ), though.
However, the phrase "I'm editing pages on africa" makes me a little suspicious. Keep in mind that this is not Wikipedia, that it is not even meant to look like it, but that it is merely a repository of info on IB. If you want to be a member of the project, that's not a matter of just starting to edit pages; it's a matter of introducing yourself, telling us what your area of interest is, what your plans are, and then we decide if we can make that fit in. What is certainly not wanted, is that people start creating stubby articles about numerous different places.
I'm also don't really understand what you are doing to the Nations of Ill Bethisad page. Please don't do that. It looks the way it does because it was so decided, and we had our reasons for that.
In the meantime, let's hear more about you, and Katanga! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 04:49, 8 February 2006 (PST)
I'm also doing Gadangmeland at the minute. I'm sorry for messing up Nations of Ill Bethisad too. My area of interest are the areas which people have "forgotten" to a degree - Australasia, Sub-saharan Africa, Western America, etc.
But that was exactly my point! Those places were not forgotten at all, just unclaimed. Like I said, this is not Wikipedia. If a link is red, that does not necessarily mean that an article is sollicited. Our policy is, more or less, the following: once we've evaluated your proposal and decided to let you in (which in not so hard as it sounds), you are free to elaborate it as much as you like (history, language, culture, news items etc.), picking up several things you meet on your way. If you are the caretaker of, say, Katanga, it can be safely assumed that sooner or later you will be confronted with its neighbours, with French colonial history, colonialism in general, etc. In that case you go along and fill in some details, which in the case of France would mean collaboration with several others.
In general, don't start articles about unclaimed countries unless you seriously want to work on them. Again, this is not wikipedia, nor is it an emulation of it. If there's no article about a country, that shouldn't be treated as a "gap", but merely as an indication that it probably hasn't been worked on yet. Before editing pages, I suggest you first read a bit about how we work, like How It All Works and IBWiki:Guidelines. Among the things you'll find are "Ytterbion's Rules of Creation" and the notion of QAA: basically, it means that if something hasn't been described, we assume it to be roughly the same as *here*. As such, there are no real gaps, and people are encouraged to fill them only if they really intend to develop them into something. If that's your intention, then by all means go ahead. But if it's not, then better leave it at that until someone else turns up with a real interest in the place.
As for Gadangmeland, keep in mind that it's owned, and that a rough description of the place can be found elsewhere in this wiki.
And, I'd still like to hear your name. ;) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:30, 8 February 2006 (PST)
As for Gadangmeland: I'm just taking info from other places and putting it in here. I do intend to do a lot of work on Katanga. My Name is Quentin Smith.
Okay. Please let us know when your proposal is finished! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 03:54, 9 February 2006 (PST)
My proposal for Gadangmeland is already finished. I nabbed a lot of info for it from Scandinavian Realm, Gold Coast and Climate of the Scandinavian Realm, so it didn't take me long. Is that OK? --Quentin 07:33, 9 February 2006 (PST)

Pop Culture

I know this is discussed all over the wiki, but I wanted to know, and to boil things down a bit, what would be common pop culture terms that most of the world would probably borrow from the various languages represented here? Even languages *there* which are extant here can be included, because of course, things aren't the same. Doobieous 16:21, 8 February 2006 (PST)

what kind of terms are you looking for ? expressions ("ok") or concept/style/object names ("goth")? I get the feeling these would not be universaly known but rather spread within a given "cultural sphere" --Marc Pasquin 16:29, 8 February 2006 (PST)
There are certain to be areas where one nation, or region is particularly known for something. IB isn't exactly full of cutural islands in seas of isolation. While there would be things spread within a cultural sphere, I'd think that wouldn't preclude things spreading globally. I'm looking for music terms (which a few are of course already stated, like Jass), movies, arts, cultural phenomena which have caught on, technological terms, expressions, things within those veins. Doobieous 18:55, 8 February 2006 (PST)
This probably isn't what you were thinking of, but it occurred to me that older passenger airships might well be converted into the equivalent of very high-end night clubs. Hence, the rise of a the term "Mile High Set" as opposed to the "Jet Set." Zahir 09:24, 14 February 2006 (PST)
Zahir, always the innovator! I like that idea! New meaning for the Mile High Club! BoArthur 09:26, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Announcing the Return of the Boreanesian

Just a short note to let everybody know that I'm still alive and that I have returned safely to Denmark. I've been quite busy lately, so my apologies for not being very active since my return.

I have looked over the contributions of Quentin regarding the Africa-related pages of the SR. BRAVO!!!

If there is anything else I have missed, please notify me via my talk page or by email.

Boreanesia 04:54, 9 February 2006 (PST)

Good to have you back. I was wondering about those map requests I made before you left (SE Asia and the SR). Hope you're not too busy. (Apologies if I seem rude.) --Sikulu 05:51, 9 February 2006 (PST)
Thanks. I'll get to those maps -- time willing. Boreanesia 05:53, 9 February 2006 (PST)
Hi! Welcome back! I know you're busy and all but you *might* want to take a look at Victoria I of England and Scotland simply because I made her husband related to the SR's royal family. Zahir 06:40, 9 February 2006 (PST)
Good to see you back, Kristian. I have just two things for you to look at: Austro-Prussian War and related Mecklenburgian wars, plus some comments of mine on Rygen. Jan II. 06:55, 9 February 2006 (PST)
Welcome back, Kristian. Glad the Boreanesians allowed you to get home alive! ;) Anyway, time hasn't been standing still here. I have an assignment for you, too (admittedly, a minor one), when you have some time to spare. Please have a look at Talk:Germany; Sikulu has expressed some interesting ideas regarding the HRE, especially Braunschweig and Saxony! Cheers, —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:06, 9 February 2006 (PST)

Thanks guys! I'll have a look at all these things in time. Please be patient. Boreanesia 09:32, 10 February 2006 (PST)

Xliponian Pause (Hopefully Short)

As I am moving home - and all my stuff, including thousands of books, is packed and therefore inaccessible - I will be "off the air" for quite some time. It is true that our computers will be re-installed asap, bút our new home will have new electricity and plumbing put in while we live there, so chaos is sure to ensue! But I still belong to the Alia Valentina nostalgic fan club, so all is OK. Kyrmse 05:59, 12 February 2006 (PST)

Good luck! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:29, 14 February 2006 (PST)

World Games

I have written a proposal for the World Games, working out more details. Nik 20:21, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Antagonist Idols?

That is a very pretentious phrase, but it kinda gets to the heart of a question I have about IB. Here for much of the past century and a half there has generally been a boogeyman on the international political stage. At one point it was imperialist Russia, or the Germans, as well as Nihilists then the Socialists then the Communists and right now the idea of Terrorists/Muslim Fundamentalits. Now there is a more diverse, dynamic place in some ways (the huge number of ethnicities, for example) with a counter-veiling conservatism in some ways (the continued existence of many more monarchies, etc.). The result is that IB remains quite similar to *here* in lots of ways. Well, having some kind of international boogeyman is so intrinsic to this world, methinks maybe something similar should exist in that one.

Of course, one can point to Prussia and the SNOR as well as Florida-Carribea as examples of exactly that kind of boogeyman. Indeed, that works very nicely overall, but the fact is the SNOR and F-C have fallen while Prussia was emasculated. What is filling that gap (which, I grant you, is a smaller gap in IB because of no-cold-war)?

One possibility that comes to mind, based on what is already QSS--militant pan-nationalism. Just as *here* there was a movement in the early 20th century to unite all Germans under one flag, so *there* towards the end of the 20th century there seem to be several movements to unite other ethnicities under one flag. The United Arab Repubic was clearly an attempt at precisely that. So too is Pan-Baltism. The Felipes are a small version of this, while Kemr has seen ardent nationalist groups resort to violence.

I'm not suggesting this is something which should be inserted into the framework of IB, but that this seems to be a problem that is emerging spontaneously and bears further examination. Zahir 07:26, 8 February 2006 (PST)

I'd expect some form of fundamentalist or Pan-*insert appropriate*ist groups would occur somewhere, at least to stir up some kind of trouble. --Sikulu 07:42, 8 February 2006 (PST)

A very good question, David! The truth is, I don't really know. The difficulty of IB generally being a slightly nicer place is that we simply don't have boogeymen of the same calibre. I suppose that, as far as they exist *there* at all, they are mostly a local phenomenon. Emperor Bokassa or Idi Amin Dada may very well have lived *there* do, and played the role of Central Africa's boogeymen for a few decades. But they clearly wouldn't be feared in, say, Western Europe or North America. I'm not even sure if the Russian SNOR regime had the same impact. The way I see it, before and during GW2, China was the boogeyman of Asia, Russia's SNOR regime was the boogeyman of Eastern Europe, Hessler's Germany was the boogeymen of all Europe. Likewise, and later, F-C might have been the boogeyman of North and Central America.

I'm quite sure all kinds of fundamentalism exist *there*, but given the completely different character of both colonialism and decolonisation, I doubt if even Muslem fundamentalism is as militant as it is *here*. And regarding Pan-X-ism: well, that kind of ideas certainly exist *there*, but if you ask me, I'd say that they are not as popular as they were, say, between 50 and 100 years ago.

Here's my take at it: the biggest boogeyman would be internationally organised crime. If all kinds of mafia would close work together, against a far less internationalised background than in OTL, they could grow into a very powerful network. Perhaps IB could have something à la James Bond's S.P.E.C.T.R.E.? An interesting thing to ponder! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:41, 14 February 2006 (PST)

Remember that the mafia *here* took off largely because of prohibition (as far as America goes). If nothing like that existed *there* then there would have to be other causatory events to give rise to them. BoArthur 08:53, 14 February 2006 (PST)
That reminds me--did Prohibition happen in IB? Zahir 08:58, 14 February 2006 (PST)
I'll tell you that Louisiannan viticulture wouldn't allow for it domestically, so Louisianne never had it happen, despite the best efforts of the Mormons in Nouvelle Cournouaille.BoArthur 09:18, 14 February 2006 (PST)
Hmm ... I like the idea of international organized crime, perhaps dominated by several major (feuding) organizations, such as the Mafia and the Yacuza? It'd be something ilke terrorism *here* -- Nik 19:45, 21 February 2006 (PST)

Some question regarding SNORist Aeronatic Corps.

I am thinking to re-do the SNORist Military Insignias, I personally like Marc’s art and ideas, but historically sort of incorrect. The problem lies that Marc assumed for some reason should be Soviet style insignias and ranks, but modified in special SNOR patterns. I am proposing ranks that based on the Russian Empire, which SNOR technically is a protagonist, since the Bolsheviks failed and USSR never happened. Following this logic, I already finished with full dress ground army shoulder marks, nevertheless, I encountered some problem with Aeronautic Corps rank titles. The problem consisted in the Tsar’s desire (“here”but GW interrupted this process) to build air force akin Imperial Navy. Now I have a question to Federated Kingdom curators. What is the status of the air forces “there”, even if RAF never created, do the Kingdoms use the same ranks as “here,” and if not what is leading power consider to be? If my suspicion correct my proposal rank titles would look like naval ranks with Russian specifics, if not, then traditional army like ranks.

Thank for reading, Zibster.

User:Lordziba 10:02, 11 February 2006 (PST)

Just to be clear, my ranks are not meant to be based on the bolsheviks' one. The idea basicaly is that, just like what happened *here* Snor decided at one point to update the uniforms and regalia of its army and dropping the blanks as highest rank of a level make perfect sense.
Regarding the air forces, I would assume it would be Dalmatia in the present but I would have no idea during GW2.
--Marc Pasquin 02:34, 13 February 2006 (PST)
Then if so, my ranks still valid, let say, they were before update, how about this, Marc. What about, if there was some kind of reform in 1970, and SNOR leadership assumed to simplify, just like "here" Stalin did in 1943. Could this work, "to keep both parties happy?"
--Lordziba 10:29 pm., 13 February 2006 (PST)
I like the sound of that, actually.

Well, things like uniforms and regalia aren't really my thing, so my general policy regarding this kind of things is to give my blessing to anybody who likes to work on them. That said, Marc's work has been around for quite a while already, and as far as I'm concerned, they are QSS. Keep also in mind, that the SNOR is of course not the same as the bolsheviks, just like the White Council is not the same thing as the Politburo, but that we've intentionally made them into close parallels. Thus, Vissarionov ≈ a non-communist Stalin, Gorbachenko ≈ a non-communist Gorbachev, The White Council ≈ a non-communist Politburo, etc.

Which of course would not necessary mean that other insignia couldn't have existed as well during a certain period. Like you said, a reform of some kind could have taken place. But make sure that such a reform wouldn't make the existing images Marc created obsolete! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:29, 14 February 2006 (PST)

I have an idea, how about of period from 1924 to 1948? Why these years, the first, 1924, a year after founding SNOR, and despite Aleksey was a puppet, the White Council need to provide link between old Empire and New Order, so intiated a military recovery reform. Second, why 1948, just like "here" in 1943, "there" SNORist Russia became a dominent power during the GWII, and need new ranks to have a new look. So, I am thinking 1924-1948. Open to any suggestions.

User:Lordziba 14 February 2006 (PST)

That actualy sound like a good idea considering you tried to make them closer to the tsarist style. It also doesn't go against what I had assumed, namely, that the insignias in my proposals would have been adopted sometime during the 1940s. Maybe the 1924-1948 ones could use a more heraldic version of SNOR's logo (meant to be an early version of it), something like this:

On a related subject, maybe you could try to compress your images a bit more, just make them big enough to be seen and when its on a multicoloured background, a jpeg might be better. --Marc Pasquin 16:26, 14 February 2006 (PST)

I see what I can do regarding images, and oh, I did not know about early version of SNOR logo.

User:Lordziba 14 February 2006

I have to object against the idea of a more heraldic version of the SNOR logo before 1948. Namely for this reason: it would invalidate the pictures of Kolchak and Vissarionov, and frankly, I like them fár too much for that! Nor can I see a good reason for changing it. After all, the SNOR was not the same thing as the state. It was a totalitarian party, founded in the same years as Hitler's NSDAP, and the current SNOR logo fits perfectly with that picture. What I propose is that we leave the SNOR logo intact, but alterations in the COA of the state can have taken place. The same goes with uniforms: what if the military was originally dressed in normal czarist uniforms, and Vissarionov in his later years changed their symbols into something more SNOR-like? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:55, 17 February 2006 (PST)
My idea for using a more heraldic form of the logo was to show that during the early year, they were still pretending that everything was still the same as before the civil war and that SNOR was just a temporary thing until the tsar came back.
If you'd rather we just keep the logo, maybe instead Ziba can switch the round pips for the stars used by the tsarist army ? --Marc Pasquin 07:08, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Now I am confused, I tried to do better, sort of improvement, but in spite, got a heated discussion. Anyway, I agree with Marc, it would be better with stars. What about same patterns, with stars, and same SNORist eagles. Sort of provisional period, as I wrote, the idea was to link the old Tsars with new Order. But let say in 1948, to strength the movement and give full legitimacy, Vissarionov decided to give the party a full swing, sort of “People, Party, and Army are One “ motto, furthermore, the SNORist army was winning and occupying territory, thus a need for reform occurred and changed into Marc’s pattern. Another note, why I would stand by black field, rather gold or silver, due to the White Army General Kornilov, Antonov, and others, so-called Striker formations, and so-called “Color Regiments,” there were ironically a scalp and bones too, akin to German/Pirate styles, but it can be given to Oprichnicks “there.”

User:Lordziba February 17, 2006.

If by "heated" you meant feedback that suggested correction, this is a normal part of contribution and shouldn't be taken pejoratively. Incidently, what part is confusing you ? --Marc Pasquin 07:40, 18 February 2006 (PST)
Hm, let see, oh: 1. What kind of color should be shoulder bars: gold, silver, black? 2. What should be there, the SNORists circles or old Tsar’s stars? 3. What seal should I use?
Now, on what I assumed is agreed so far: insignias should be no late 1948, and there were at least two military reforms.

Off topic question regarding SNORist Russia. I was getting strange ideas, was watching some movie on Soviet contingent of Afghanistan. Question, did anything similar occur with SNORist Russia in “there” time line?

User:Lordziba February 18, 2006.

1- maybe combination depending on the arms: silver & blue for airforce, gold & red for infantry. would offer a nice transition from the coloured civil war era. If you go with Tsarist era instead, silver for the first 3 and gold afterward.
2- stars
3- snorist logo (the one you originaly used)
About assumptions: yup.
off topic: no idea, Jan ?
--Marc Pasquin 15:21, 19 February 2006 (PST)


Katanga and Gadangmeland are proposals now. --Quentin 05:24, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Both look excellent to me! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 12:16, 17 February 2006 (PST)


QAA says that if nothing is written about something, it is like *here*, yes? Then why do people write lengthy articles about things that are the same *here* as *there*, especially when theyve been more or less copy-and-pasted from wikipedia and slightly altered? Examples include Mormonism and List of Mormon temples (no offence to Daniel Hicken), Lord of the Rings, List of popes (until recent history). I would like to replace text about things that are the same here as there with text saying the such-like of "Foo is essentially the same *here* as *there* until 17??, when..." or "Foo is essentially the same *here* as *there* until in 17??, ..." Is that OK? --Quentin 08:46, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Well, Mormonism isn't a very good example because the histories of the movement--and indeed the current form of the Church itself--are significantly different. Lord of the Rings on the other hand is a starting point of difference--Tolkien *there* was knighted and it has been proposed he won the Nobel Prize for Literature, while an IB motion picture (sans CGI) is in the works right now (and is being filmed nowhere near New Zealand). I wasn't aware there was a list of IB Popes. Wow. Learn something new every day. I suppose the argument can be made that some of them should perhaps be different. Maybe the previous Benedict was more successful in his efforts to end the First Great War? Zahir 08:52, 17 February 2006 (PST)
In Dan's defence, I had a little go-round with him over various Mormon related articles and links a while back. We agreed that articles on Mormon theology et sim, where they are the same as *here* should not appear on the Wiki (any more than articles on Catholic theology should appear). There could be external links to outside sources -- that's OK. I think móst of his articles are pretty much related to Mormon history, persons etc that appear in IB. (I haven't looked recently.) Note that he ìs a Mormon, and should be forgiven at least a lìttle of his enthusiasm! Elemtilas 21:53, 17 February 2006 (PST)
I've merged List of popes and papacy and put them at Pope. --Quentin 09:03, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Until something is written about a given subject, we *assume* that it is the same. but when we actualy write about it, we *know* if it is the same or not. In that sense, there is no need to "copy-and-paste" until you want it to be accepte as canonic *there*. --Marc Pasquin 09:15, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Agreed. Althoug there wouldn't be much point in copying entire articles from Wikipedia, it's certainly not forbidden to describe things that were (more or less) the same as *here*. Like Marc said, before doing so we assume it is the same, after that we know it. Basically, I think it looks good now. Only one thing I'm wondering: why not move it entirely to Papal States? (I know, it's the mergist in me speaking, but...) —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:50, 17 February 2006 (PST)
I vote we remove everything. It's not notable, or of value, and it shouldn't be in our wiki! DELETE DELETE DELETE DELETE! Especially that foul article about Wenedyk. Especially that one. Jan'll get my joke. BoArthur 20:44, 17 February 2006 (PST)
:)))IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu?
Good idea. We'll start with all that stuff about Mormons and Louisianne. Who cares about those blue aliens?  ;-) Nik 21:48, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Quite honestly: we dón't need a separate article about the Papacy here on the Wiki. It's already covered either at the main web page dealing with Catholicism in IB or else the main web page dealing with the Papal States. I dó suggest this article be deleted on account of it being redundant. I have been lazy of late in sorting out the links to various items on the Ill Bethisad website, but it should not be hard for me to insert appropriate links in Catholicism. At the very least, this information (less the whóle list of Popes) ought to be moved to Catholicism or Papal States, if it mùst be on the IB Wiki. Elemtilas 21:53, 17 February 2006 (PST)
This is why I haven't put out the whole list of presidents of the LDS church; they've not done much different, or I haven't explored that much. When they've done differently, I've noted it. I think we can do similarly with the popes. Those that differ from *here* might be listed as "Popes of Note" on the Papal States page, and in that way, we know the ones that aren't the same as *here*.
Yes, I agree with Padraic that a full list of popes is redundant. The way it looks now is basically fine with me, but still the article should be deleted. In general, I don't think we need Wikipedia-like lists of about everything. Question remains, where do we move the contents? To Papal States or to Catholicism? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:51, 18 February 2006 (PST)
Well, I wouldn't mind seeing the article simply deleted. Placing the material in Catholicism or Papal States (my second choice) is stìll redundant -- all that material already exists in the main articles. Elemtilas 21:07, 18 February 2006 (PST)


Why are some popes given numbers ending with J? --Quentin 10:52, 17 February 2006 (PST)

I and J are interchangeable in number final position in Roman Numerals. Padraic would have to explain it more deeply; that's what I understand. BoArthur 15:00, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Considering that the letter "J" was only invented in the 16th century, It must be a rather recent innovation and not something going back to the romans.--Marc Pasquin 18:16, 17 February 2006 (PST)
As I understand it, if the numeral is made up of more than one I at the end, the final I becomes J- thus VI but VIJ. *Here* at least I've only ever seen it in lowercase forms, as in viij. It's a late mediaeval convention, IIRC. And J wasn't "invented" in the 16th century- the letterform has been in near constant use since the 3rd century or so as a positional/graphical variant of I. It only became commonly distinguished as a letter in its own right in the 16th Century, but even then in southern European texts it was used sporadically to distinguish the semivowel from the full vowel from the lat 800's. Deiniol 18:56, 17 February 2006 (PST)
So this is not meant to be the letter "J" per say but rather a variant form of "I" as the printer "s" (the one that look like a "f" missing the middle arm) ? In that case, wouldn't the habit of doing so be abolished like the before mentioned one ? --Marc Pasquin 07:40, 18 February 2006 (PST)
The habit has lasted well into the XX century. I got it from a pharmeceutical Latin text book, for example. Elemtilas 21:05, 18 February 2006 (PST)
Maybe its maintenant has to do with pharmaceutic then ? --Marc Pasquin 14:51, 19 February 2006 (PST)
I've seen the practice elsewhere, and not every pham. Latin text has it. You can see many examples of this convention simply by searching for "lxviij" or similar. Bang out of the gate I see British, Spanish, Dutch, French sources and a medieval English text "the iiij{th} unto the Fest of Saint Mighell tharchaungelle than next and immediatly suying that is to say by a quarter of a yere and lxviij dayes". Of course, all I really meant by mentioning the pharm. Latin text was to explain where I got the idea from for IB.
Aside: As for its use in modern medicine, Roman numerals are almost entirely passé anymore. Roman numerals are really only used when noting apothecaries quantities -- and that is a very rare practice, and only truly ancient doctors would prescribe anything in drams, and if they tried, they'd get called at home or the golf course and be told to make a new order in mg or cc. They're also trying to get rid of the last vestiges of Latin (p.o., TID, OD, etc) but somehow I don't think "STAT" will be going away anytime soon. Elemtilas 15:53, 22 February 2006 (PST)

Ytterbion: Alta California and Tejas

I was talking with Dirk Elzinga today (for those of you who know him on Conlang), and he brought up a point that I think we should explore to placate Ytterbion. Why, exactly, were AC and Tejas squabbling over the wasteland that is Nevada and Western Utah *here*? Was it national pride? Stupid Nationalism on the part of Jorge Bush and the other Juntas? Can Barry or Carlos (or anyone else who knows) give me some info to make this piece fit with regard to Ytterbion? BoArthur 15:04, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Well, Alta California sees it as expressly theirs, granted during the colonization of North America by Castile, and rightfully theirs. I can't speak for Tejas. but Tejas did take much of the south eastern territory, IIRC. AC sees the squabbling as protecting their sovereign territory. I'm sure Tjeas sees it a part of their right to practice imperialism. I think Padraic may know more about Tejas' reasons. Doobieous 17:39, 17 February 2006 (PST)
In your opinion of AltaCalifornio sentiment, commitment and drive, would it be worth the years of war and cold war to them to defend a wasteland of desert that's pretty much only good for storing nuclear waste? BoArthur 18:08, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Its the principal, Gosh darnit ! Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time countries have fought over silly little piece of wasteland. --Marc Pasquin 18:16, 17 February 2006 (PST)
Methinks this would depend upon how the whole thing started. If, for example, local Tribes from that area were giving trouble to both Alta California and Tejas, and each country thought the Tribes were in league with the other (or--more likely--different tribes were allied with each sooner or later) that could set things off. Consider also that different Settlers from the two countries might have not gotten along at all well, with events deteriorating from there (note how Southerners and Yankees had an atrocity-filled civil war in the Kansas Territory *here*). That it is a desert makes the folks who are already there that much more desperate simply because there aren't the resources to share. Plus, a flood of too many settlers might easily have poured into the area due to a rumor of, say, gold. Once enough blood has been shed, then each side has to win to justify all that has gone before. It becomes, among other things, a matter of finding excuses. Is this area a place from which either country might, for example, threaten the other? Are terrorists operating out of the region, with some kind of support at one time or another from Alta California and/or Tejas? Zahir 18:29, 17 February 2006 (PST)
The Terrorists, of course, are the Fundamentalist Mormons. I like what you said. Is this reflected in the articles of Tejas and AC? BoArthur 18:35, 17 February 2006 (PST)
I'd have to take a gander at the AC article, but the discussion certainly explains the terrorist issue behind it all. It's not just fanatical Mormons, it's them, and opportunists and outlaws which keep it going. Of course, the numbers of "rebels" is a lot smaller than I think AC or even Tejas is willing to tell their people. Doobieous 18:38, 17 February 2006 (PST)

Brithenification needed

Can someone brithenify this name: Richard Walter Jenkins? Thanks! BoArthur

Richard and Walter are already in the Onomasticon, so Rhigardd and Gwallter. Jenkins means "son of Jenkin", with Jenkin being a diminutive of "John"- so perhaps Efenin for the diminutle of John and the Ll- as a reduced form of feil "son of": Rhigardd Gwallter Llefenin? Deiniol
I hadn't heard of the Onomasticon before; Thanks for that, it looks good to me, and I'll incorporate it into the article unless someone wants me to change it? BoArthur

Japanese Correction


Can you correct this if it needs it? Ryòli no teçudjin from Ryōri no tetsujin (料理の鉄人). Did I get it right? I'm going to create an article on it as soon as you give me the okay on my spelling. :) BoArthur 22:28, 18 February 2006 (PST)

Close. Should be Lòli no teçudjin, assuming conventions on word spacing are the same in *there*'s romanization, which I'm not entirely convinced is so Nik 22:52, 19 February 2006 (PST)

Flag (Samoo Kaj Plonezio)

Moved to Talk:Samoo kaj Polinezio

Thanks, Marc, for making a new logo. It looks excellent! However, I'm having a little problem: I can't get it working. I've been trying to upload it as Image:Wiki.png twice, and when that didn't work, made it a little bigger. But I still can't get it working. Muke, do you have an idea what the correct size should be? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:18, 20 February 2006 (PST)

Okay, the problem is solved. Marc made another version in a slightly different form, which I uploaded and which still didn't work. But then I tried deleting my entire cache, and now it works. Thanks again, Marc! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 03:50, 20 February 2006 (PST)

Help with names

I need some help with the names for some of my comic-book characters. Could anyone help me? Please visit Talk:Alter-Gen for discussion.

As an aside, we could use a random name generator for these languages, for the benefit of some people (like me, for instance) who don't know enough of these languages to be able to form names. A mixing of name-components from Wikipedia would do for the languages that exist *here*, but, obvously, that wouldn't work for the IB conlangs.

Thanks. --Sikulu 04:47, 20 February 2006 (PST)

Well, you can always ask any of us for a name... —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 05:21, 20 February 2006 (PST)
The Brithenig onomasticon can be found at http://hobbit.griffler.co.nz/Names.html. Names can be put together similarly to Welsh names. The patrinomic is ffeil, which can be shortened to Ll- before a vowel. The list is nót exclusive as both myself and others have adopted or introduced names not found on this list. - AndrewSmith
I don't have a list of name for New Francy but would recommend not simply taking french name. Even *here*, some name and surname tend to be more prevalent (or absent) on one side of the ocean then the other. --Marc Pasquin 16:29, 21 February 2006 (PST)


Can someone tell me what map Image:The_List.jpg is based on?

It's from the map of the world from Wikipedia that I modified to show at least some of the IB borders. BoArthur

Happy (belated) Birthday Muke!

I was browsing my live journal stuff and saw that your birthday had come and gone, Muke, and wanted to wish you many happy returns! BoArthur

Oh! Yes! Happy birthday! And may many more follow! Zahir 21:45, 21 February 2006 (PST)

Ferdinand or Francesca?

The Sicilian kinglist says that the immediate king before the present one was named Ferdinando; the text of the history of the Two Sicilies says the ruler in the same spot was named Marie Franc,oise. Which is QSS?Theophilus88


How does one join the list? Quentin

I was asked if I wanted to join by Jan I. I think its just a mater of the members' say so. --Sikulu 05:05, 22 February 2006 (PST)
I think that, at the very least, Follow by white rabbit should be placed on the list. As an aside, what is the diference between an active member and an honorary one? --Sikulu 06:10, 22 February 2006 (PST)
There is a very complicated and arcane algorithm that determines how one gets on the List. Productive participation over a span of time is very important anymore. Membership used to be by invitation of Andrew S., then general discussion of the group, then (for a short time) self proclamation, and now confered more or less for merit. The Rules have all changed in recent times, but largely boil down to Jan I sending me an email saying "Hey! You haven't updated the List recently: Eks, Wye and Zed have been active and productive for so many months -- I think they should be on the List! What do you think?" We talk about it and decide who we think might hang around for a while and who really seems interested. You're right that Jakób should probably be listed, and in time probably will be. Thank you for your vote of confidence! There are one or two others in the queue as well.
There's another whole set of algorithms that determine honorary vs. regular membership, and active vs. inactive vs. retired. Honorary members are usually those who have "performed some service" to the project without actually taking part in the project directly. Someone who suggests an idea (but doesn't flesh it out) or who helps out in some way (like for example, hosting our little Wiki) will get a mention.
All this reminds me that I have some tweaking to do on the file itself... Elemtilas 15:37, 22 February 2006 (PST)
Padraic put it very nicely in a nutshell. Yes, that's basically how it works. Padraic is the one who maintains The List, and I sometimes send him suggestions for expansion. Usually we agree without much discussion. And it is also true that nowadays merit plays a far more important part than it used to.
With IB growing and becoming widelier known, it is only natural that more and more people will be interested in participation. While that is basically A Good Thing, it also means that we have to watch our gates more closely. It's that simple: if we allow anybody to make edits in any article, we will soon lose track of who is in control of what. We can't let that happen. This Wiki is a very nice thing, but it contains various traps: it could easily give the impression that anything that hasn't been described yet is basically up for grabs, and that once a country has been described with a Wikipedia-like article it is "complete". In all honesty, I have to confess that this development - IB slowly becoming a Wikipedia clone - is worrying me.
I don't want to discourage potential members in any way. But at the same time, I believe we should stick to the procedure described on the Main Page: if someone wants to participate, he should first make sure he knows reasonably well what IB is all about, then introduce himself in Lla Dafern or on the Conculture list, and lay out his ideas. If we decide to accept them, then this person can go on and work them out. When that is done, and a new corner of IB has effectively come into existence, membership will be granted automatically. To achieve that, it's better that people discuss their ideas here than making edits in article space. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 16:32, 22 February 2006 (PST)

Disputed Area

I noticed a disputed area in the North of India on various maps and have found various references to it but can't find anything about it. --Quentin 02:30, 24 February 2006 (PST)


I have found several references to a country of the above name, but it isn't on Daniel Hicken's map. Which comes first by QSS? And also, is it the same as the Sikh Confederacy? --Quentin 04:17, 24 February 2006 (PST)

Well, *here*, Khalistan is the name for the proposed Sikh Nation. --Sikulu 05:20, 24 February 2006 (PST)
But at India there are two very seperate entries, one called Khalistan and one called Sikh Rázj Sam̃ðh, which list other names for the country as Pam̃záb, the Sikh Confederacy, or Panjab. --Quentin 05:40, 24 February 2006 (PST)
That is rather odd. I'd have thought that they should be one and the same. --Sikulu 05:48, 24 February 2006 (PST)
I'll go ahead and get Khalistan to point to Punjab then. --Quentin 05:49, 24 February 2006 (PST)
On second thoughts, seeing as redirects seem to be a bit of a no-no, I'll simply remove Khalistan from Nations of Ill Bethisad and India and replace all references to it with references to Sikh Rázj Sam̃ðh.


I hope this won't be too contreversial, but...

I'm removing actual nations from Category:Nations, if every nation was there, which they aren't, the category would be to big.

I think the ultimate source of this problem is people subst'ing Template:Nations onto things. I'm putting the Noinclude tag around Category:Nations thing. --07:37, 24 February 2006 (PST)

Conlanging Help Needed

I've been working on my "laurentian" and have managed to accumulate a small lexicon (based on a few 19th century books meant to point the "mistakes" made by french-canadians).

Putting aside the borrowings from other languages, I've noticed that some words can only be explained by going back to latin. For exemple, the word for "here" is written in standard french "ici" [ee-see] but in quebec french, it is pronounced [ee-sit]. Since it is not a case of pronouncing a final sillent letter (like "lit" [bed]) in standard french, I checked the ethymology, and found that it come from the vulgar latin "ecce hic" ["this here"].

Now here is the question, how can I devise a rule that explain the evolution from "echay-ik" and how can I apply it to other words ? Any help appreciated (even just toward a good online source).

--Marc Pasquin 15:38, 24 February 2006 (PST)

Marc, the reason I didn't answer this before is that I - honestly - don't have a clue. I know the story of ECCE HIC > ici more or less, but you may hang me if I know where that -t comes from.
As far as I can tell, the development from ECCE HIC to ici, as an irregular one. There are more of those words in French (based on the merger of Latin words). A typical example is ce(t), derived from Latin ECCE ISTUM. The story of that one is: ECCE ISTUM > *eč-estŭ > *čest > OFr. cest > NFr. ce/cet (the disappearance of that s is regular).
In the case of ici, I don't know where this initial i comes from. Could it perhaps be that it comes from IBI ECCE HIC? But for the rest, development is predictable: ECCE HIC > *eče-i > -ci (as in ceci, voici).
Like I said, I don't have a clue regarding this final -t in Québecois. Probably some later development. Does this help somewhat? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:10, 3 March 2006 (PST)
(BTW, eager to learn more about Laurentien!)
Sorry, I can see I might have made my question more specific that I wanted, the "ici/icitte" was more an example then anything. What I wanted to know is, how do you (and other conlanger) develop your "grand master plan" that allow you to decide "X is the latin origin which might give me Y in my language" ? Is there some kind of guidelines available somewhere to set them up or even some general altlinguistic tips page ?
--Marc Pasquin 09:18, 3 March 2006 (PST)
Ah, now I understand. Well, that's a different story. Basically, to build my own GMP (which was done partly in concert with Benct, BTW) I had to achieve two things: first of all, find a way to map Vulgar Latin to Common Slavic phonology, and then apply the changes that caused the development of Polish from Common Slavic, with Modern Wenedyk as its ultimate result.
An important thing to know about sound changes is that it is not merely a matter of Sound A in the source language becoming Sound B in the target language. What happens to a sound depends on many factors: whether it is stressed or not, its general position in the word, neighbouring sounds, the vowel in the next syllable, etc. Sounds merge, sounds split, then merge with others, and so on, and so on. As you can see in my own GMP, I had to use no less than five different stages in the development of the language:
  1. Latin
  2. Early Northeast Romance
  3. Late Northeast Romance
  4. Old Wenedyk
  5. Modern Wenedyk
The first 2½ are almost identical to the Benct GMP for Slvanjek, after that, our languages go their own way. Of course, you shouldn't treat these stages as fully developed languages, merely as a mechanism for word building. But for each and every word, I could provide you with the form in any of those five stages.
Does that answer your question? If you want examples, don't hesitate to ask for them! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:46, 3 March 2006 (PST)
Looking over your GMP, I guess what I would need to do then is compare phoneme in a large number of words and at various stages. Unfortunatly for me, the only 3 stages I can find anything about are latin, old french and then 19th-20th century Quebec french.
One question, the fact 2 languages might take one specific word and end up with 2, would the change in question be limited to the phoneme present in the word or would it imply something about other words. For example: Old french Freid [cold] (from pop.lat. frigidum) became Froid [frwa] in standard french and frette [fret] in Quebec, can I make a rule based on that which says words ending in "reid" always become "rette" and would it give me a hint about how other phoneme might change ? If this sound like a silly question, I'm sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out phonetic and even general linguistic. --Marc Pasquin 10:57, 3 March 2006 (PST)
You might look at similar words: how are other Latin words whose stems contain -d treated? Did "ludus" become "lutte", "longitudo" become "longitute" or something like that? You might then devise a rule: -d becomes -t. In other words, be móre general rather than specific. If you stick to your -reid to -rette rule, you are basically restricting yourself to words that derive from Latin -rigid(us). Frigidus and rigidus are the only two I can think of. Not much of a rule, eh? Elemtilas 15:15, 3 March 2006 (PST)
Don't worry about that, I'm not a linguist either. I think you can't say that every rule will always work out the same way. Besides, apart from regular soundchanges we also deal with things like analogy, assimilation, dissimilation, popular etymology, etc. To give you one stupid example, it could be that words ending in "reid" basically become "rette", except that "treid" becomes "tré" because the Québecois don't like too many t sounds in a row. But apart from that, yes, I think there's nothing wrong with generalising certain tendencies a little.
So, if I may ask, what is it precisely you're working on? Do I understand you well if I get the impression that you're trying to set up a scheme between Old French and Laurentien?
As for Latin, unfortunately Classical Latin is not of much help, and resources about Vulgar Latin are somewhat limited. I've gathered quite some info over the years. A good start would be http://www.orbilat.com . —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:29, 3 March 2006 (PST)
My source is basicaly french spoken in Quebec in the 19th century. I have built a lexicon over the last few years and have started dividing the "non-standard-french" words in these categories:
1- Recent Anglicism (taken out as they wouldn't exist *there*)
Any reason why? Is New France isolationist, or do they have a Royal Academy of Languages and Letters?
Neither but because unlike its counterpart *here*, New francy was never conquered by the british with the resultant lack of anglo-saxon assimiliation attempts. --Marc Pasquin 08:18, 4 March 2006 (PST)
2- Local Neologism (put on hold for the time being if they rely more on french then latin roots)
3- Attested Patois (which are usualy from Norman or Picard)
4- Unattested Patois (of obvious latin origin but different from francian and unable to be linked to a specific patois)
5- Non-Standard French (identical to french word but with slightly different meaning, gender or pronounciation. Might have been a non-francian word originaly which over the years became copied on a similar sounding one.)
6- Non-English foreign borrowing (like "shnaye" [go away] which seem to come from "schnell" though I would have no idea why we use it.)
I don't know how realistic it might be but from the words in category 3-4-5, I wanted devise rules of how they evolved from vulgar latin and then applied these rules to create words that would replaced those which are strictly francian. The logic behind this would be that the various patois spoken by the early immigrants would have mixed together (as it did *here*) but without being simply added to a domininant strain of francian. In other words, I want it to sound similar to northern france (and Quebec) version of french but no *be* french or a derivative of it. --Marc Pasquin 12:02, 3 March 2006 (PST)
As for 3, 4 and 5, there are sources on the dialects (non-Francien). It's not much but Einhorn's "Old French: a Concise Handbook" has a few lines about the dialects. I think most of the works in English would be on Old French proper -- i.e., Old Francien.
Maybe I should ask this the other way around: When you were developing Venedic, how did you go about deciding how latin root "X" would turn out in venedic ? was it an abitrary choice or was it based on some trends in other languages ? --Marc Pasquin 09:43, 3 March 2006 (PST)
No, there's almost nothing arbitrary in Wenedyk; even my choice for the precise meaning of a word is based either on Romance or on Polish. The same goes for the creation of words: Wenedyk is entirely based on mimicking the development of Polish from Common Slavic, and almost all changes that occur in Wenedyk did also occur in Polish. In rare cases, I made exceptions. But in general, Wenedyk is quite restrictive, and I think the same goes for Brithenig.
If you are looking for inspiration of languages with a freer approach to sound changes, you should ask Padraic, because Kerno is not tied to existing language to the same extent. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:52, 3 March 2006 (PST)

IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:52, 3 March 2006 (PST)

Indeed. The overall sound mimicks Cornish, but the application of soundchanges is not so planned. Laurentien seems to be an interesting project. Have you considered where the majority of the "old" Quebeckers come from in France? I.e., in the XVII and XVIIJ centuries, where did most of the settlers come from? If almost everyone *here* came from two or three areas, that at least should help narrow your search as to what dialects you need to be concentrating on. Elemtilas 15:15, 3 March 2006 (PST)
Like I mentioned above, the settlers were mostly Norman and Picard speaker.

With Montreiano, I based many of the changes upon those I've heard from modern Spanish speakers. For instance, the rule that intervocalic and final d drops is based upon a trend I've heard for /D/ to become so weak as to be inaudible. There are certain dialects of Spanish today where d does drop intervocalically in some instances, particularly in the ending -ado: hablado > /ablao/. I never actually codified the master plan, much of it is from what's in my head. Montreiano and Castilian basically share a similar set of sound changes up until probably just before the old Castilian (Spanish) period (I never specified when, mind you). So, we have:

  • Where old Castilian changes the sounds /ts/ and /dz/ to /T/ in modern Castilian, Montreiano preserved /ts/, and /dz/ collapsed into /ts/. Thus, the word nación in Castilian is naçón in Montreiano.
  • The sound /ts/ (ç) had the effect of neutralizing the glide /j/ when it follows /ts/, which is why you get naçón /natson/, and not /natsjon/.
  • Final e followed the same tendency in Castilian to drop finally in polysyllabic words, except where the word was analyzed as a compound word, like irse (ir se)). ALthough in Montreiano, this became regularlized.
  • After final e dropped, it had the effect of changing the sound /L/ (as in calle) to /l/: calle > cal "street", or valle > val "valley".
  • Where Castilian has /je/ and /we/, such as the words nieve and cueva, Montreiano settled on /ja/ and /wa/, niav /njav/, cuava /kwava/.
  • Montreiano preserves the sound /S/, which is represented by x. In Castilian, this sound evolved into /x/ (or /h/), which castilian represents usually as j as in the word "Méjico". The sound /S/ evolved in Montreiano from other sounds, s before consonants, and sc (so, scença "science" is pronounced /SEntsa/)
  • After the effects of the fourth rule, /L/ intervocalically broke apart into /wj/, as /l/ weakened before consonants (including glides). However, for this rule to work, it ocurred later than /l/ before non-glides.
  • Before the above rule, and rule 4 ocurred, final l weakened to the glide /w/, so "sol", for instance became /sow/ "sou".
  • /B/ intervocalically or before /r/ evolved into /v/. Before other consonants, it weakened into /w/. So, you get words like cavra /kavra/ "goat", and faular /fawlar/
  • Ñ moved back further in the mouth to become /N/. In order to preserve the glide which was still there, Montreiano uses "ñi", where Castilian would have just "ñ": cañia /kaNja/.
  • Intervocalic and word final d /D/ dropped late. However, a glide was inserted where the result would've created homophones, such as via "way" and vida "life", which became "viya" to preserve the distinction. Where a glide is inserted, a y is used (this is the only real use for y in Montreiano, as the default to represent /j/ is usually i).

So, that's the main changes I follow. I haven't really come across conflicts, but of course all languages have words which don't necessarily follow the expected results (even in Spanish there are some words where the sound change is considered unusual and unexpected). Montreiano actually started off as my own Romance language with modern sound changes and trends I liked from modern (Mexican) Spanish. But, I think it's taken on it's own life and really is different from its sister, Castilian.

So, were you looking to write up your own plan for Laurentian?

Doobieous 21:34, 3 March 2006 (PST)

I do not know if it is going to help, but since the creation of Rzecyposoplita -- fusion of Poland, Lithuania and the Ukraine(here), the officil language for documents was Latin.:::

User:Lordziba, 3 March 2006

Thanks for the feedback, it made me realise I probably need to teach myself a bit of phonetic (no idea was a "stressed" letter is) before I devise the GMP.

Right now, what I have in term of phonetic is strictly what I read in some books written about old quebec french pronounciation and the possible origins of some words:

- always affricate (except when pronouncing the name of a european francophone):
France        			Laurentien     
di 			=	dzi
du			=	dzu
dy			=	dzy
ti 			=	tsi
tu			=	tsu
ty			=	tsy

- Latin Endings

latin "-or"		= 	-eu
latin "-ator"		= 	-eur
latin tonic "a"+l	=	ô
Latin singular "-al", 	= 	plural "a'us"

- Others
frankish "W-"  		= 	"GW"
Norman "Gu-"		= 	"dj" or "y"

There was more but as I said, I know next to nothing about phonetic and so had no idea what it meant.

I'll post a link to the lexicon I compiled soonish. --Marc Pasquin 08:18, 4 March 2006 (PST)

Well, as far as I can tell, Montreiano would definitely be a better example for you than Wenedyk, because as far as I have understood, Laurentien is rather a dialect of French (or at most, a separate Langue d'Oil) than a completely separate language. You approach looks interesting, and I like the idea of "reinventing French" for part of its vocabulary. Although it seems odd that part of its vocabulary would derive straight from Vulgar Latin instead of Old or Middle French, I have to say that the idea is cool.
For that purpose, I recommend you to take a real good look at the soundchanges that distinguish French from Vulgar Latin. Try if you can find this book: Peter Boyd-Bowman, From Latin To Romance In Sound Charts. It's a really cool book, as Andrew undoubtedly can testify. I'm sure you can find it in your uni library. If not, I'll happily send it to you. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 12:26, 4 March 2006 (PST)
If it helps any, I'm not unfamiliar with Jerriais and Normand, due to my research for Arvorec dialects. So if you want some help on that front, drop me an email. Deiniol 16:43, 4 March 2006 (PST)


I wonder why the Australasians didn't separate out Manchuria when they carved up China? Could there be a Manchu separatist movement, or at least a Manchu Autonomous Region within Beihanguo? Nik 20:19, 24 February 2006 (PST)

One thing to remember is that although the ANJAC did most of the gound work, the political decisions were taken by the provinces' home countries.
No matter who made the decisions, one reason I can think of is that a sovereigh manchuria might decide to play a "prussia" and try to reunified the empire. By having it stuck with another ethnic group, it might have been thought that the squabbling would keep it distracted. --Marc Pasquin 07:57, 25 February 2006 (PST)

Nea Illencia

Where is this country, other than being somewhere in S. America? It's not on the S. America map! --Quentin 00:23, 25 February 2006 (PST)

Nea Illenicia is near Rio de la Plata. See the page for exact borders. It's currently being watched over by me while its original caretaker is on sabbatical. BoArthur

South Asian Nations

Who are they? --Quentin


We know that IB has used nuclear weapons more than *here*, though of much less strength. What about biological and chemical weapons? Japan *here* used biological weapons in China during WWII. Perhaps China did the same *there* in the Great Oriental War? Nik 00:48, 24 February 2006 (PST)

If the First Great War was so very much like WWI that would mean the use of gas warfare, followed by a defacto (later official) ban on that type of warfare. Interestingly, even Hitler refused to use gas weapons (but that might have had to do with his own wounding by mustard gas) while Churchill considered it. It seems possible that Adolf von Hessler might have ordered them used in the last days of the Second Great War. And depending, there might easily have been a few tyrants since then who have done so.
I totally buy the notion of China using biological weapons, which would also be banned. I've often wondered if maybe folks in IB remember the Influenza Epidemic of 1918 better than we do? I was in my forties before I'd ever heard of it! And I'm a history buff! It was never once mentioned in any history class in school, yet it killed more people that WWI in about three months!
Another detail--I wonder if the varioius supranational organizations have some kind of Accord about WMDs? Especially biological ones? Zahir 07:44, 25 February 2006 (PST)
There was a discussion at one point regarding rules of warfare. The concensus was that there was no rules in the sense of a geneva convention equivalent but more in the sense of some very strong "traditions". Basicaly, do what you want to soldiers but try to avoid civilians. Avoiding using certain weapons would probably be englighten self-interest (don't use them and I won't).--Marc Pasquin 07:57, 25 February 2006 (PST)


I've proposed Andrew Jan Volstead as an Acting General Moderator. Now *here* Volstead was a Congressman who introduced Prohibition. I was assuming that the NAL did indeed have a period of Prohibition (1916-1932) with approximately the same restrictions. Further, it would seem logical that the same thing would have happened--organized crime would swell. But here's a thought--the most obvious place (to me) from which to smuggle in alcholic spirits would be Louisianne and New Francy. This brings up an interesting possible curlicue. *Here* organized crime became associated with Italian Americans. In IB did it become associated with the French? At least in the NAL? Your comments please? Zahir 08:34, 26 February 2006 (PST)

New France I guess might participate, but probably not to the extent that utterly corrupt Louisianne would. I think the NAL might lean on New France quite heavily if they tried anything like that (during that period). I like the proposal, by the way. Elemtilas 10:44, 26 February 2006 (PST)
*Here* Quebec was, for a few years, the only place in north-america where you could legaly produce, sell, buy and consume alcool. I would assume then that New Francy went the same way and never had prohibition. It lead to a lot of "Day Tourism" from NAL provinces nearby I'm sure (*here* that period is know as a particularly dodgy one). While it created a boost for the local economy, it also was responsible for the creation of "barbotes", illegal betting places (unlike alcool, betting was considered illegal)
If organised crime indeed became mainly a Francian (rather then italian) phenomenon, that mean you would have to deal with the "Pègre" (a member of the pègre is a "pègreu").--Marc Pasquin 15:59, 26 February 2006 (PST)
Are you saying the rest of Canada *here* had some kind of Prohibition period as well? I'm sure New France would be vèry popular indeed, especially for the border regions of the NAL!
 ?? Well, I really wouldn't say at all that áll organised crime was rooted solely in Northern French speaking communities -- I think what's being proposed is that a certain amount of organised crime could be based in Louisianne and New France, and its main activity would be bootlegging. I doubt France would be much involved at all. Any more than Germany or Scandinavia.
I suspect that we'll find an active underworld in the NAL. We already know about Cos Nustr, and I think that we're just adding a new layer to the depths in answering this question. Perhaps it was the Louisiannaises that got to the alcohol market first and hit hardest. But I think that the American mob would most likely be made up of local immigrant groups (like *here*), rather than plain foreigners. It would be the home-grown mobsters that are working with LA and NF in order to supply the NAL with its beer. This is not to say that there no Italian/Sicilian mafia. This is not to say that there were no smugglers at all from Britain at the time. Though, naturally, nòne of them would be good law respecting, God loving Kernowmen! ;) Elemtilas 17:58, 26 February 2006 (PST)
In the proposal I'm working on, my presumption is that there were many organized crime groups in the NAL prior to Prohibition, but that the Francophobe ones had an advantage because of ties to Louisiannne and New Francy, which are not only two countries who share the longest borders with the NAL, but also have strong wine & spirit industries. Of course, even so these groups did not remain purely Francophobe, just as the Mafia is not purely Italian. Zahir 18:15, 26 February 2006 (PST)
Just a small thing, I think you mean Francophone (note the "n"): a french/francian speaker. A francophobe (with a "b") is someone *hostile* to francophone.--Marc Pasquin 18:26, 26 February 2006 (PST)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... Zahir 19:34, 26 February 2006 (PST)
You don't think this was something worthy of being pointed out ? --Marc Pasquin 14:29, 27 February 2006 (PST)
Yeah, it was and is, but I was in an odd mood when I wrote the above. Put it down to low blood sugar. <g> Zahir 15:22, 27 February 2006 (PST)

Call for Discussion on Categories

Based on the following:

>>>Nations in asia is too big a category, so it's beeing split by me. Is that OK?
>>>-- Quentin 00:03, 26 February 2006 (PST)

>>No, it's not okay. Why would it be "too big a category"? And why would categories
>>by thát important anyway? It's the content that counts! For the last time, please,
>>concentrate on formulating a proposal instead of jumping around over remote corners
>>of the world. -- IJzeren Jan 00:08, 26 February 2006 (PST)

>Question: What is up with all of these recategorizing, and categorizing of pages that
>you are doing? I don't see how much of it makes sense, especially when some of your
>recategorizations don't make much more sense than the originals. -- Doobieous 00:18,
>26 February 2006 (PST)

It seems that Categories and their use/abuse has become an issue. Up front, I have to admit ignorance as to what they are or how they work. I'ld like to see some discussion as to the following:

  1. What are Categories?
  2. What are Categories for?
  3. How broad is too broad? How narrow is too narrow?
  4. How many Categories do we really need?
  5. What would be a sensible scheme of Categories for the IB Wiki, that could take into account any future progress of the project?

I think Quentin needs to be part of this discussion, as he seems to have an interest in recategorising articles.

Elemtilas 11:54, 26 February 2006 (PST)

I was mostly disturbed by the constant categorizing, and recategorizing the Quentin was doing. I also think that this is something that needs to be discussed, and as you say, Quentin needs to be a part of this (and if you're reading this Quentin, *please* be a part of this, and please give us a clue as to what you were doing and why (when your posting rights are reestablished, of course). Doobieous 18:26, 26 February 2006 (PST)

A véry good point. Well, the first two questions are answered easily. A category is a collection of related articles. The whole thing is explained on Help:Categories. To get an idea what life would be like without categories, just try to remember the old wiki, which didn't have them. It practically meant, that we had to maintain lists of articles, and those lists also had to be linked to somewhere. That's how the Famous Persons Page, Nations of Ill Bethisad, Corporations, etc., came about. If an article wasn't on one of those lists, it was terribly hard to find it. Categories are basically grouping of interrelated articles.

Then we have subcategories. King Pedr would fit in a least two categories: Category:Kemr and Category:People. If those two categories are getting too big, and if there are enough Kemrese people, one could create a category Category:Kemrese people, or, as in this particular case, Category:Kings of Kemr, which then becomes a subcategory of boty Category:Kemr and Category:World Leaders.

Now questions 3 and 4. Thát is mostly a matter of taste. My personal idea is that we shouldn't make categories more important than they are. Obviously, Category:People would be too big without any further subdivision, and the Category:Famous Persons doesn't really solve the issue. But on the other hand, is it really necessary to distinguish between Category:World Leaders, Category:Royalty and Category:Pretenders? And do we really need a Category:Celebrities? I don't think so. My personal opinion is that we should keep the number of categories as limited and the system as simple as possible. Another example of the kind of categories I'd like to get rid of is Category:Supervillains (League of Righteousness). Why? First of all, because it contains only one article, that also belongs to Category:League of Righteousness. Secondly, because that article could very well belong to Category:League of Righteousness and Category:Supervillains. Same goes for a category like Category:Alter-Gen.

How broad is too broad? Well, that question is not easy to answer. At some point, I decided that the Category:Nations was too big, so I split it up into Category:Nations in Europe, Category:Nations in Africa, etc. Personally, I don't see the need for any further subcategorisation. Categories, after all, are not supposed to answer all our questions, they are merely a way of easily finding articles. So how broad is too broad? Well, to put it very roughly: I think when a category numbers more than fifty articles or so, subcategorisation is warranted. On the other hand, we should avoid categories of only one or two articles.

What would be a sensible scheme for us? Well, opinion seem to differ here. I think the current system as shown here is not bad. Before that, we had a very Wikipedia-like system, with Category:History as a subcategory of Category:Social Sciences, something we clearly don't need. The basics are there, but there has been a wild-growth of subcategories, of which I wonder if it wouldn't be better to undo it.

Resuming: in our policy regarding categories we should:

  1. not try to mimic Wikipedia;
  2. understand that categories are a means to make articles easily accessible, not a way of organising them into the finest details;
  3. keep reminding ourselves that it's all about articles, not about technical stuff like categories;
  4. try to keep it simple.

IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:08, 27 February 2006 (PST)

If categories have too many articles in them, they are hard to navigate. If all of the nations were in Category:Nations, You couldn't find the one you wanted. Same for Category:Nations in Asia. --Quentin 04:44, 27 February 2006 (PST)

I have spent a lot of time recategorising all nations into Category:Nations in Asia etc. I personally don't think it is too big at all: even if you include the Middle East, it hardly exceeds 50 nations. Categories are not supposed to fulfill the role of lists (as far as we need those, anyway). But my point is, Quentin, that before changing all this by yourself, you should at least have discussed it first. That's what I did too before starting my operation. Please, don't be fooled by the open-source character of our software. Like I said before, this is not Wikipedia, and anything you do here should be done with respect for, and in accordance to, the work done by others. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 05:01, 27 February 2006 (PST)

I wanted to make a point here. The Category "Famous Persons" is actually quite large, and to me the subcategories of "Celebrities" and "World Leaders" and "Royalty" all make sense. This is especially true since those three can be pretty much counted on to grow. One other point, purely in the effort to make things easier to find, I suggest that a good rule of thumb is to try (and this will certainly not always be possible or desirable) to place each article in at least two categories. Zahir 08:45, 27 February 2006 (PST)


I am attempting to deal with some QSS issues with China. Please see the articles China and Great Oriental War

The main changes I've made are:

  • Revised timeline of Chinese expansion
    • Corrected Chinese invasion of Siberia to match Chukotka article
    • Pushed Chines invasion of Japan to 1933 instead of 1925. Twelve years between the imposition of sanctions and the attack on Sideni seemed a bit too long. This means that the begining of Emperor Xòwa's reign is pushed back 8 years.
  • Changed Australasia's base from Nagasaqui to Naha, since a base in Japan proper seemed implausible, with Japan as a Chinese puppet at the time.
  • Added some more info to the War itself, proposing a period of anarchy after the destruction of Beijing.

Nik 19:46, 28 February 2006 (PST)

Archive Changes

I moved some of the archive here, partly because I didn't feel that the topics had been properly and adequately discussed, mostly because they were lost in the plethora of changes to other pages by Quentin. BoArthur 20:20, 28 February 2006 (PST)

Rightly so. As a rule let's not archive discussions unless they have been really concluded. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:03, 1 March 2006 (PST)


This wiki is now 1 year old. It was started on February 6, 2005. Nik 21:15, 28 February 2006 (PST)

YAY! I look forward to another year! BoArthur
Happy anniversary everyone. --Sikulu 00:27, 1 March 2006 (PST)

I must say that I thought of it on February 6 or 7. Now it seems a little late for celebrating the anneversary! ;) But I think a one-day revert of the Main Page to the original version is a really cool idea! Congratulations, everyone! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:00, 1 March 2006 (PST)

Yeah us. --Marc Pasquin 06:48, 3 March 2006 (PST)
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