Lla Dafern/Archive3

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

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The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
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2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December


Next: Atlanta, Jacobia

Just a little head's up. I'm approaching the finish of the basics of the SLN for the proposal. A few more additions and it will be done in terms of what I am submitting, but of course I'll be perfectly willing to make changes as is decided.

My next big project will be a proposal for Atlanta, largest city in the province of Jacobia. Please let me know if anyone has any specific plans or desires that way--or if I'm stepping on anyone's toes!

Thanks in advance... Zahir 14:26, 2 Oct 2005 (PDT)

I was thinking about slavery and people of color within the NAL, because this directly deals with ideas I had for Atlanta.

First, it seems to me slavery could not have taken hold in IB as it did *here* and there had to be reasons for same. One that occurs to me is that fewer English farmers were in the South, creating less pressure to develop as much land as possible and fostering less "weight of numbers" which legalized slavery in the first place. I strongly suspect also that the laws involving Indentured Service were much more lax. As a result, slaves were fewer in number and often existed side-by-side with indentured servants. A much less pervasive institution.

Which brings up my second point--what are Americans of African descent called in IB? "Negro" is a rather cold, technical word while "Black" and "African American" are responses to specific social pressures that probably don't exist in IB. Along those lines I'd like to make a proposal, which particularly fits with my model of the form slavery took. I suggest that the descendants of slaves within the NAL be known as "Quadroons" largely in recognition of their mixed heritage. Zahir 13:22, 4 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Okay, Atlanta is now a formal proposal. I've included a serial killer in the late 1970s, but he is not Wayne Williams. Rather, he is an amalgam of Andrei Chikatillo and his namesake, Jeffrey Dahmer (with a detail from the Yorkshire Ripper tossed in). In the process I've given Atlanta a large Venedan population and put the CBI's training academy there instead of Quantico (as the FBI has *here*), while calling "criminal profiling" by a different name--"offender analysis." Zahir 09:11, 10 October 2005 (PDT)

Batavaian Kingdom wrong name

the batavian republic is wrongly named for the following reasons

1. the Batavi were celts, and a rather minor sub group too 2. they got wiped out 3. even in Ill Bethisad the people of the region are germanic 4. therefore they wouldnt have a name taken from a long defunct group 5. Napoleon only called Holland that, because he renamed countries with names relating tofrance ie the Cisalpine republic in northern france taken from the roman name Cisalpine Gaul

Actualy, most of those places were renamed based on roman empire provincial names. Since Napoleon existed *there*, the name would have been also adopted but not droped sue to their particular history.
Incidently, you might want to sign your contribution, just to make it easier to find out who said what.--Marc Pasquin 09:07, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Yes, please tell us who you are! --IJzeren Jan 02:11, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Anyway, I'm aware why Napoleon called the Batavian Republic the way he did. And that's the whole point: Napoleon was not defeated in IB, and the Batavian Kingdom is essentially a continuation of the Batavian Republic. Sure, there are probably still people who'd prefer to name it back to "Kingdom of the Nine Provinces", "the Netherlands", "Kingdom of the Low Lands" or something similar, but most people have gotten used to being called "Batavians" by now. Sure, in ancient times the Batavi were Celts, but since when should that stop later peoples from using their name? The Franks were a Germanic people, the Bulgars a Turkic people, and the Belgae a Celtic people, too. Besides, the Germanic population of the region where knowns as "Frisians", a name that is already taken by the Frisians themselves. --IJzeren Jan 02:11, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Calling blacks Quadroons

right, feel bad about calling blacks negroes, quadroons is worse. it's really not a nice word

Really? I've never seen it used in a negative sense, but then I grew up in the Deep South where the word was associated with the "Quadroon Balls" of New Orleans, hence it had an exotic, erotic, faintly decadent air about it. Zahir 07:05, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Quadroon refered to someone who was a quarter african so in any case, it would'nt make sense for all. As to why it might be considered negative, it was part of racial classification (you had different term depending on the relative number of african and european ancestors) and being divided that way is rarely considered complimentary (execpt for those who introduce the system of course)--Marc Pasquin 09:07, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Granted, but in this case we're talking about slang. "Black" doesn't make that much literal sense because the folks in question were and are really "Brown" for example. Although called "White" I am hardly an albino (for that matter, I'm part Nez Perce but hardly look "Red"). Just something to consider. Zahir 09:22, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Since "race" isn't the big issue *there* it is *here*, I'm not really sure that terms like quadroon and similar would be so prominent. The NAL has bigger fish to fry than mere skin colour! -- what with mány overlapping and interlacing legal systems, who's the Head of State of where and why. The prominence of the Natives in daily life probably shifts the whole paradigm to one of Native v. Newcommer. [PB]
The more I think on it, the more I suspect a term that might stir far more passions in IB would be one that related to indentured servitude of one kind or another. Gotta think about it, but it'll go under Slavery in the NAL when that becomes a full-blown proposal. Zahir 10:07, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
I don't know. I'm just not convinced that an institution that died a natural and peaceful death nearly TWO CENTURIES ago could possibly stir up the same kind of feelings that our own institution does -- an institution that required the bloodiest war in American history and nearly a century of "racial" tension, civil rights, etc. to set right. I wonder if our own (American) acture awareness of slavery -- it is stìll a shackle on the ankle of our culture when it should have been cast off lang syne -- is informing this preoccupation with indentured servitude *there*. Frankly, I don't get it. *Here*, it is still just possible to pick with reasonable certainty who míght be the descendant of a slave. In the NAL -- it is simply impossible to tell now, whose g-g-g-g-grandfather was a slave or an indentured servant just by looking or by any other common means of indentification. It's also irrelevant anymore. [PB]
Ha, a touchy issue! Well... English is not my L1, so I have to say that "blacks" sounds pretty neutral to me; I've never heard the word "quadroons" before, so I can't comment on that. And even the word "nigga" could probably exist *there* in a neutral sense. Indeed, race is not much of an issue *there*, probably. But the story has also a backside: the absence of a Holocaust in IB will probably mean that the taboo on racism is less deeply rooted too.
But I think we need to distinguish between what would be alt-historically acceptable or probably, and what caution we need to take regarding our audience. For example, no Hitler and no national-socialism in IB, but it would still be wiser not to use the term "national-socialists" for a friendly bunch of nice guys. Likewise, even if words like "negroes", "blacks", "quadroons", etc. would probably have a neutral connotation *there*, it would still be better to use something different. "Browns", maybe? --IJzeren Jan 02:00, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
"Browns" is normally used *here* to denote the Malayan race; i.e., Malaysians, Indonesians, and Filipinos. What about using Iberian racial terminologies (like Mulatto, Zambo, Mestizo, etc.) for the various mixed races, and Anglify them (e.g., Mulattoes, Samboes, Mystizoes, etc.)? AFAIK, they don't carry any negative connotations — at least they don't in the Philippines. Boreanesia 06:12, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Samboes would probably not be better for a reason I assume you were not aware of: [[1]]. The problem with the other 2 (mulatoes and mestizo) is that it is base on the concept of being "half of something". while some ethnic group here have adopted it (the metis in manitoba for example), it would probably not be the first choice for another group trying to define themselves. In that sense, they might adopt a name like "Afros" in the same way as some new england french speakers refer to themselves as "francos" (short for francophones).--Marc Pasquin 08:36, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
I rather like "Afros." But I was also thinking that the descendants of those in indentured service--including slaves--probably have a term for themselves which in my proposal would be more germaine. I was told many Australians are called Pommies for Prisoner Of his Majesty (reference to convicts sent there). Something similar might be in order here. Zahir 08:48, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Actualy, its the british that are called pommies *by* the australians. No one know for sure the origin of the term, some other explanation are:
  • short for pommegranate (skin getting bright red under the sun)
  • acronym of "Prisonner of Mother England"
  • acronym of "Property of His/Her Majesty" (stiched on cloths given to convicts, not refering to them both the cloths themselves)
  • Maybe you cold keep "Afros" for those of african descent (and one assume, slaves) whereas for the endentured servant you could have some sort of acronym based on the last explanation above.--Marc Pasquin 09:07, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    How about Difers for "Debtors For Life"? Zahir 09:22, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    "Afroes" and "Difers"? I like that! --IJzeren Jan 11:39, 8 October 2005 (PDT)
    Obviously, the term difers would only be used in english speaking parts of the world (or even just NAL). "Afros" would propably have an easier dispersal considering the stem exist in most european languages.--Marc Pasquin 12:14, 8 October 2005 (PDT)
    Actually, I was aware about the problem with sambo *here* — which is why I tried to modify the spelling. <sigh> In an email to conculture, I suggested that it might be a Scandinavian acronym for "Sammenboere" ("those who live together"). David wanted a term that would apply to a group whose ancestry comes from a mixture of Guinean slaves and European indentured servants. The way I understand it, the slaves and the indentured servants lived together -- hence my Scandinavian proposal "Sambo". No racial slur is intended. All I'm suggesting is possible non-English term that might be used in the NAL. Boreanesia 12:52, 8 October 2005 (PDT)

    I would want to note that what are bad words here aren't necessarilly so in Ill Bethisad, therefore even for example "nigger" would be possible (but I see it reasonless in this particular case as I don't see a reason why word "nigger" would have developed as a normal, not insulting, way to call blacks). Ill Bethisad is based on what-ifs, and languages are different here; there are some conlangs and real languages might differ too somewhat as languages after all were influenced by history and such, especially on such things as which word is considered bad and which is not. Abdul-aziz 13:40, 8 October 2005 (PDT)

    Right now I'd be in favor of "Afroe" for those of obviously African descent, with "Difer" for anyone derived from those in indentured servitude, and "Samboe" as a non-English term for both, pretty much. Zahir 15:11, 8 October 2005 (PDT)

    i agree with the last statement, having started this topic then completely ignored it, the terms Difer and Afroe are possibly the most useful names possible, Afro probably could be used "here". Samboe however probably should be seen as aword going out of favour that only hicks from the bck hills still use to a persons face

    I would think that "Difer" would be derogatory, particularly given its proposed origin! That, it seems to me, would be like calling American Blacks *here* "slaves", because their ancestors were slaves! Nik 01:16, 12 October 2005 (PDT)
    I rather see "Difer" as a term initially coined the by the Indentured themselves, akin to how comedians *here* on the so-called Borscht Belt came to call each other "Brother Rat." To be sure, it has probably been used in a derogatory way, especially by overseers, but that in the hundred-plus years since emancipations, it has come to be used with pride. Much as gays *here* took the pink triangle and turned it into their own personal banner, despite its horrific origins. Zahir 09:35, 12 October 2005 (PDT)
    I see no good reason to divide people based on the divisions of their ancestors five-ten generations ago. What is the point? This is becoming a vèry unattractive aspect of IB. Not what I'd expect at all! [PB]
    My intention was not that "Difer" is a particularly nasty word in the present. In the generation or so following Emancipation it was used as a term of both derision and pride (depending on who was speaking) but that by the late 20th century it had become no more inherently good or bad than "Yank" or "Jew." If anything, I'd say the only ones who really care any more are the descendants of the original Difers, viewing it as a badge of pride akin to having a family member on the Mayflower. In the aristocracy of the working class, in this view, they are the descendants of the greatest heroes--they are the Knights of the Proletarian Round Table. Mind you, this is also a subtle POV and not one much considered one way or another by folks these days if at all. The whole reason I even brought up the subject was mostly for historical purposes, about how things were viewed while there was still a living memory of slavery within the NAL. Zahir 18:28, 12 October 2005 (PDT)

    Race terminology in IB

    About calling blacks "browns": Race classification is rarely logical, terminology makes little sense. It's really only in this day and age that we try to be "correct" about skin color, origin, etc (the system below was a way to define each "caste" level accurately within an encomienda society, not a way to accurately describe people-- i.e. Salta Atrás means "jump back"). I see no harm in using "black" in an English speaking context, but we should be careful about using words that here are considered patently derogatory.

    I mean, we call people of a typical European look "white", and "black" or at least translations of it were used here even before the civil rights era, so why not? Neither is truly descriptive, but people still use them. I don't see much derogatory or wrong in using "black", unless you want to pick nits. Here's a few Spanish classifications. They had well over 30, IIRC:

    • The second generation, Spanish born in New Spain, were called Criollos or Creoles. This class also came to include other persons of all European ancestry born in the colonies, affluent Mexicans, royal blooded Aztecs, and individuals wealthy enough to purchase the position.
    • Next came people of mixed blood, children of Spanish and Indian parents were called Mestizos. Educated or "civilized" Indians were also of this class.
    • Then came the Indians, followed by the Mulattos who were of mixed blood, Spanish and Negro.
    • The Zambos were of mixed blood between Indian and Negro.
    • There were other groups smaller than these that included other combinations:
      • Castizo- Spanish+Mestizo
      • Morisco-Spanish+Mulatto
      • Chino- Spanish+Morisco
      • Salta Atrás-Chino+Indian
      • Lobo- Salta Atrás+Mulatto
      • Gibaro- Lobo+Chino
      • Albarazado- Gibaro+Mulatto
      • Cambujo- Alabarazado+Negro
      • Zambaigo- Cambujo+Indian

    Depending on how strong and how long this system lasted in the former Spanish colonies, it's possible that many would be maintained. Granted, as the encomienda system faded, most of the distinctions would've fallen out of favor. We'd have to decide just how stratified the cultures which were ruled by Castile are (Carlos would be able to help decide on that). -- Doobieous

    I agree with Barry. Filipinos *here* still use racial terms like mestizo and negrito for descriptive purposes and without any derogatory intent. Mind you, unlike in the USA, such terms are not used in official documents. They are used solely in the vernacular conversation. I suspect it's the same in many other Hispanic countries. Boreanesia 04:42, 14 October 2005 (PDT)
    In some areas of Latin America a term like "Negra" are considered almost like pet names. As Kristian says, words like "negrito" aren't used in a derogatory manner. I always wonder how realistic it is to say "well, we shouldn't use "black" or other translations in IB just because they're not accurate". IB isn't meant to be some sort of perjorative free zone or to re-work things to such an extent that it becomes totally idealistic in a positive only way (I'm not saying it should be rife with racial slurs either, but let's be realistic, even anti-Semitism was established as being more pronounced there, since there was no Nazi Holocaust). -- Doobieous
    It is true that IB isn't meant to be a utopia. But neither do we háve to explore every single dark nook and cranny either. Some sleeping dogs might best be left to lie -- we might then tacitly assume the existence of those things *there*. [PB]
    I didn't say that. I didn't say we needed to add words like "nigger" or "chink" or "gook" or anything of that sort (which is what it seems you might be implying). I'm saying I don't see what the huge argument about why "black/negro" is such a bone of contention here. I never said we needed to explore every dark corner, my comment about anti-semitism was to point out that IB isn't some sunny hippie paradise where everyone gets along. Since when did "black" become a taboo word? Last I heard it wasn't. My point is, why should we shy away from broad _non derogative_ words when there's no reasonable reason in my eyes that people wouldn't use broad generalized terms for each perceived race. - Doobieous
    My own problem with a term like "Black" on IB is mostly to do with one of the inherent difference between *here* and *there*, namely, that on IB difference is not only more pronounce but accepted as part of life. Its not realy that people are more accepting (the number of wars prove it) but rather that it wouldn't make as much sense to them to put classify a large group of people base on one thing. In other words, you would probably have as many ethnic epithet for "black" as there are ethnic groups which could fall (for us) into that category.--Marc Pasquin 13:46, 14 October 2005 (PDT)
    Just because IB is set up to have more ethnicities and ethnic groups doesn't mean that people who have no experience with "them" are going to automatically start classifying them more specifically. I don't see a reason why people would *not* have a broad, general term. -- Doobieous


    I would appreciate it if those who knew more than I about the twentieth century histories of the Two Sicilies and Greece would have a look at my Libya proposal. I need advice about how the Roman Republic fiasco and the pre-GWII 'Greater Greece' movement would affect Libyan history 1911-1970. And does Maria Francesca's gender play into the Libyan independence movement?Theophilus88 11:34, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)

    by "Roman Republic fiasco", are you talking about Mussolini's socialist republi *here* ?--Marc Pasquin 08:36, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    No, I mean the Roman Republic fiasco in IB. The one that involved the Two Sicilies and the Papacy for most of the early twentieth century.Theophilus88 07:53, 9 October 2005 (PDT)
    the the person who believes that it is the Australians who are called pommies, Mate your a wrong. pommies refers to the english. prisoners of mother "england". th english are called pommies because they are stuck in a country that is wet and rainy, poor, cant play cricket or rugby. Afroes is a good name for the black people of over "there"

    I am posting here because it is a pan-North African issue. The Berbers in Libya (and probably the Maghreb) are Kharijites, while the Bedouin are Senussi Sunnis. If the Maghreb Caliphate is Kharijite, it would provide additional religious unity for all these Berber organizations.

    Internet and IB

    On the Doc Sauvage talk page, zahir wrote:

    But I was under the impression that in IB the internet doesn't really exist yet, hence no Ebay. Or am I wrong? Zahir 17:51, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    No internet but I had once suggested that something along the line of the minitel [[2]] might exist in some countries (since it would require a simpler infrastructure).
    Has anyone else given anymore thought to it ?--Marc Pasquin 18:10, 7 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    Yes. Deiniol 09:43, 8 Oct 2005 (PDT)
    Well, this ended up as some of my responsibility, so I'd might as well outline what's going on there with it. Right now, it's in the same state *there* as it was here about 12 years ago. It exists, but it hasn't entered the popular consciousness yet. As with here, nobody's invented an analogue of the world wide web yet, so it's all FTP, mail, usenet, and so on. The origins were also slightly different: rather than a defence project, it originated as a loosely-coupled way to tie the disparate government and academic networks in Ireland together, and quickly spreak to the FK and out to the rest of the world. Right now, it's just used by academic institutions, governments, and some high-tech businesses. Now if only somebody was to invent some kind of www analogue... And yeah, fidonet and minitel analogues exist *there* too --Kgaughan 12:47, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    IMO, I think that minitel would be more advanced than *here*- maybe as a precursor to the www *here*? Deiniol 13:44, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    I was thinking exactly the same way. However, it's probable that *here*'s minitel is a videotext system too, so the question is how do you turn a videotext system into a hypertext system. --Kgaughan 15:39, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    Before the internet takes off *there*, someone needs to invent, develop, market and popularise some sort of computing device that could rest upon one's desk. Should someone develop a graphical format for the already existing networks in IB (an imperative, I think, considering that its academic and medical applications would benefit greatly by images), it still wouldn't enter the popular consciousness, since the people have no real way of accessing it.
    They're around. Remember, computers in IB are much like computers *here* were back in the early '90s. It's safe to assume that there are already computers out there with sophisticated GUIs and networking capabilities, but such machines outside of business use are seen as little more than toys (c.f. the Commodore Amiga and Acorn Archimedes *here*). --Kgaughan 15:39, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    Ah, I see.
    Someday, someone might come up with "Network Pubs", where people can go for a cup o tea and check their e-mail; but I think home use is still a way away. [PB]
    Indeed. Imagine being able to play Nine Men's Morris with somebody all the way on the other side of the world in real time! It'd be incredible! :-) --Kgaughan 15:42, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    Cor. Well, we're just a babystep away from the whole D&D/online thing, eh? [PB]

    upgrade & stats

    All right, the wiki has been upgraded to MediaWiki 1.5.0 ... report any broken behaviour to me and I'll see to it.

    In addition, access statistics are now available to you guys, just go to http://ib.frath.net/stats/ and log in with the username guest and the password guest. —Muke Tever | 10:50, 8 October 2005 (PDT)

    Where is My User Page?????

    It seems to be gone. Any ideas what happened to it? Or should I just do it again? Zahir 07:23, 16 October 2005 (PDT)

    No idea, it looks like the contents of your user talk page sort of moved to your user page. Could it be that the software is acting up? I've seen a few odd things happening today, too: for example, I constantly keep seeing a "You have new messages" line above every page, even though there obviously aren't any. Strange.
    Anyway, there's no need to do it all over again; you can simply look at the history of your page and revert to an older version. --IJzeren Jan 12:38, 16 October 2005 (PDT)

    Spam, spam, spam everywhere...

    So it looks like they have finally found us! Sad but true. And what makes it worse, is that they seem to have quite a number of IPs at their disposition...

    What are we gonna do about it? Well, first of all, Dan and I have blocked all IP addresses that have spammed us thus far. Of course, that's hardly a guarantee that it will solve the problem once and forever, but who knows, it might help. Let's see what happens.

    Secondly, I noticed that two pages were under constant attack: the Main Page (only the English version), and the page Help:Contents. I have temporarily protected these two pages, which means that they cannot be edited, not even by a group member. After a week or so I will unprotect them. In the meantime: if any of you want to make a change to either of them, please drop me a note.

    Padraic suggested that we change the settings of this wiki in such way that only members can make edits. Well, that would certainly solve the problem, and if the problems continue I think that's what we should do; we should be wasting our time writing funny stuff and instead of protecting it from spammers. But it would not be my preferred solution: if possible, I'd prefer to keep our open character. Besides, I have to admit that I don't know how to do it, or even if it's possible at all. Perhaps Muke can tell.

    In the meantime, I urge everyone to log in before making edits. That makes it easier for us to distinguish between spammers and real members, and it would prevent you from being blocked by one of the sysops by accident.

    I hope all this will pass over quietly! (Luckily they haven't found poor Ivan Kuskov yet)

    --IJzeren Jan 01:18, 19 October 2005 (PDT)

    I never have found out what a parain is. (Never fear, Ivan, we will protect you! Our line in the sand is drawn here | ) If it hasn't happened already Dr Zahir should be honoured by the Anti-Spammers' League, pending the drawing of a nominal extra fee from his account. - AndrewSmith 01:42, 19 October 2005 (PDT)
    Parain is french for Godfather in the catholic sense, someone who takes care of the child if and when the parents can't. BoArthur 14:22, 19 October 2005 (PDT)
    Protecting the wiki from anonymous edits is a function that can't be done from within the wiki. If you decide it is what you want, I can implement it. (I have been pondering the same for FrathWiki, not because of spam but because of ownership issues: if an anon deletes a large swath of text.. or even makes minor changes... is it the owner sweeping out outdated material, or is it vandalism?). —Muke Tever | 13:19, 19 October 2005 (PDT)
    Thank you! I don't think it will be necessary though, and frankly, I'm happy with that for the reasons I stated above. It looks like the spam attack has stopped anyway. I wonder if they are still attacking the same two protected pages of they have simply moved elsewhere...
    As for ownership: that shouldn't be much of a problem to us, since all our work is owned by the group as a whole. Besides, we usually know the identity of the average anonymous contributor (usually one of us who's simply not logged in). --IJzeren Jan 01:31, 20 October 2005 (PDT)
    Yeah, I think the ownership deal is an issue that'd be specific to FrathWiki (which I did, incidentally, yesterday limit edits to logged-in users on). —Muke Tever | 10:47, 20 October 2005 (PDT)

    Anti-Spam League

    Dr. Zahir, I invite thou to review the necessary to join the Anti-Spam League. If thou're interested, please send thine additional membership fee to any member of the League and we'll be sure to get thou thine rosette. I shall work up titles for thee if thou're interested. BoArthur

    blushes For me! I...I just can't believe it! YOU LIKE ME! YOU REALLY LIKE ME! (okayenoughofthat) Zahir 18:20, 19 October 2005 (PDT)

    1815 Europe, Napoleon and Cartography

    I'm working up the full Europe map for 1815, basing it off Jan's great 1815 E.Europe map. I have a few questions for the group, though:

    1. Did Xliponia manage to stay free of the Ottomans? (I doubt it) If they did, how?
    2. Were Napoleon's conquests *there* the same as *here*? Did he invade Italy, and if so, what areas did he take? Did he take Illyrica also?
    3. What were Helvetia's border's like? (Also prior to GW1 & 2)
    4. What were the borders of Jervaine like? (Also prior to GW1 & 2)
    5. Are there any other changes in Western Europe from 1815-1939 that I should be aware of?

    Please review the maps here: European Historical Maps

    Please make commentary on the discussion page under the headers I've provided.



    (This is going to be crossposted to the Yahoo! Group)

    Helvetia's borders have been pretty much as they are now since they declared independence from Austro-Dalmatia (with Napoleon's help) in 1798. Also, AFAIK, the Republic of the Two Crowns has always been a Republic of two crowns, never a Kingdom of two crowns. Deiniol 04:58, 21 October 2005 (PDT)
    Re question 1, I'll repeat here what I posted on the group:
    I might just answer ("Xliponian fierce autonomy", but will quote from the Brief Outline of Xliponian History on the IBWiki page about XL:
    "In the early 19th century Xliponia became a region under the special protection of the Federated Kingdoms, constituting – in loose and temporary alliance with the Ionian Islands – a base against Napoleonic power in the Mediterranean."
    Earlier, of course, XL had had other powerful allies and protectors:
    "All through the existence of the Byzantine Empire, and later the Ottoman, Xliponia – a small state surrounded by powerful neighbours – enjoyed protection and guarantee of independence by various European powers, especially the Venetians and England, later the Federated Kingdoms. Due to this fact Xliponia has maintained its political neutrality through a series of conflicts, most notably – in recent times – the two Great Wars."
    "Xliponia did not suffer from the Turkish blockade in 1450; Venetian protection guaranteed Levantine trade. From the 15th century on Xliponia constituted a coastal strip surrounded by Ottoman territories."
    So you see - quod scripsi scripsi - that through skilful diplomacy (and by being strategically situated on the Ionian exit from the Adriatic to the Mediterranean) Xliponia díd "stay free of the Ottomans". Not without much bloodshed, alas.
    By the way, I enjoyed the maps tremendously (except of course for there being no XL on the 1815 one). BoArthur: dó keep up the good work! Kyrmse 07:29, 21 October 2005 (PDT)

    Great War 2

    Just letting you know I will no longer be making any contributions to this subject because I cannot--there is too much crucial information nowhere to be found and so it is impossible to build upon it. A pity really because I actually know quite a lot about WWII *here* but I absolutely refuse to devote the kind of energy I've already wasted into something that is a crap shoot as far as its usability. I carefully searched everywhere on the sites including this one and nowhere is mentioned the kind of crucial detail like the fact the FK lost. What else is missing? I can only guess. And I don't want to. Zahir 07:22, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    I'm sorry to hear that! But if you'll allow me to say so, I disagree if you say that you have wasted energy into anything unusable. Is the situation of the FK in GW2 the only thing you have in mind? Let me explain this: the entire Second Great War page is based on the description on my RTC history page, and as the name of the page suggest, it is focused on the situation in Eastern Europe, the RTC in particular. So many facts about the war in the west are not even mentioned.
    Regarding the fact that the FK lost the war: this is something Andrew and I have discussed some time ago in a private exchange of thoughts. Frankly, I don't recall the news ever made it to the group (for which I am to blame, as I failed to update my history page). So it can hardly be considered QSS from that point of view. Nevertheless, I'd like to keep it for numerous reasons I won't delve into.
    Keep also in mind that IB is still very incomplete, and that a lot of vital information is simply missing because nobody has written it up yet. Furthermore, IB is the work of a lot of people, written at different times with different background information and different amounts of time at their disposition; it's inevitable that there are inconsistencies around!
    As for your Battle for the Channel: no, I don't want to delete it, unless you réally, réally want it. It's a nice and well-written piece of text, and all that would need to be changed is a few dates to make it all work nicely. Even if we accept that FK had to conclude a humiliating peace with the HRE in 1940, that still leaves open the question when, and why, it reentered the war. As far as I recall, we never really made a concrete decision about that (correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew): I think we sort of said that it happened after Germany invaded Rygen.
    But here's a better plan: what if we change "1940" into "1944"? The timeframe of GW2 was very different from *here*'s, after all. So in the years 1940-1943 the situation was pretty stable. And in 1943 the war with Russia broke out. In the beginning, this war turned out a great success for Germany, and within a relatively short time it conquered the Baltic states, Ukraine, and parts of Russia. Now, Hessler was (almost) as mad as Hitler was. Can you imagine that by 1944, when Germany controlled almost all Europe, Hessler simply decided to give England another try? And that his despair over the failure prompted him to attack Rygen in 1945? That would also help in explaining his initial success and later failure!
    Anyway, this fact about FK losing the war in 1940 is actually the only example I can think of. I don't think there are similar cases, and PLEASE, don't let it discourage you!
    Are there other things about GW2 you'd like to know? --IJzeren Jan 15:31, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    I can think of hoards of question I'd like answered. But frankly I'm more than a bit disturbed that somethings as fundamental as the FK making as separte peace in GW2 could somehow just "not get written down."
    For the record, Hitler's insanity is often overblown. The fact is the man had a formidable grasp of military history and detail regarding current military equiptment. At his height the intuitive grasp he had of how other nations would respond bordered on genius. His bete-noir about racial superiority and mystical Ayran nonsense was at the core of his delusions, which to be sure got worse over time. Yet Hessler is portrayed as without this set of weird issues, hence we are left with a professional soldier (Hitler was an amateur and in the crunch it showed) whose insanity presumably is more akin to that of Stalin at the end--that of an all-powerful person who in increasinly isolated from reality because of that fact (a rather notorious problem with many US presidents, btw). So we can safely presume Hessler did not make some of Hitler's big mistakes--like pulling his punch against the English-speaking peoples or chasing away much-needed expertise because they were Jewish or allocating huge amounts of resources to mass murder instead of defense spending. If Hessler got the FK to sign a "humiliating" separate peace, it seems unbelievable one of the provisions of this would not be the Royal Navy is to be reduced to impotence. All but maybe one or two battleships would have to be reduced to scrap. Submarines--not allowed. Destroyers--a bare minimum. Aercraft carriers--absolutely not. Airships--again, no. Hessler would want the FK militarily castrated, and he'd be right to want that.
    The only way to save the Royal Navy is to assume there was a chunk of the Fleet who flatly refused to give in, sailing their vessels to other ports. Perhaps with the Royal Navy's support, France could hang on longer because a first-rate Navy is vastly useful, especially in convoy duties (which in this case would be a matter of supplying France and Italy rather than Britain).
    But how to fit in a failed invasion of Britain? Maybe, just maybe, after the defeat of Britain the Kriegsmarine could be expanded at a breakneck pace. That is the only way I can see justifying an attempted invasion of Britain later down the line in an attempt to quickly knock the FK out of the fighting before the French/Western Front became too much of a problem. Maybe.
    Other questions. (1) How did the Commonwealth respond? (2) Under what circumstances did the FK rejoin the war, and how? (3) Just how powerfull militarily was France to withstand the kind of onslaught the HRE could field (which would almost certainly be far superior to the one Nazi Germany used to conquer that country)? Zahir 16:14, 22 October 2005 (PDT)
    First off, maybe we could assume that instead of a humiliating peace it could be a slightly inconvenient ceasefire. If it was more luck then overwelming brute force that helped the german, both would have been happy with a temporary cessation of hostility.
    Regarding hessler, he wasn't a nutter like Hitler but he had other flaws. For one, like most of the prussian higher echelon he was competent but somewhat intransigeant officer who had trouble accepting new tactics and technologies.
    as to the precise questions:
    1- Very badly
    2- germany might have broken some parts of the ceasefire agreement
    3- As I said above, it could have been more a serie of fortuitous events that true strenght that helped germany so in this case, france simply wouldn't any more then *here*. It could simply be that *there* unlike *here*, the general staff decided to listen to the advice of De Gaulle and mechanised the infantry.
    Just a few possibilities --Marc Pasquin 16:54, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    (1) Soooo, did they continue fighting? Did they wash their hands of the whole thing? If they did continue fighting, why did they? (2) Might I suggest it more a matter of politics? Lord Halifax *here* pretty much wanted a separate peace. Had he been First Lord, then the controversy over meeting all the conditions of the cease-fire could have driven him from office, especially if there was an increasingly popular pro-War Pary which the King actively supported. Once Halifax's ally in Kemr fell from power, his days and that of the cease-fire would be numbered. Hessler might well have demanded increasingly harsh terms, completely misjudging the political situation in the FK. At last the HRE sends an invasion for bloody the FK's nose, which is turned back by--of all things--the Avorec Navy. This convinces the FK that they can win, and a good thing too because the Cease-Fire just re-commenced firing. How does that sound? (3) Actually, France had more tanks that did Germany *here* but were deployed poorly. They didn't mass their armor but spread it piecemeal as backup to infantry, whereas the Germans used infantry as support for armor. I would suggest that if the ground forces were equal, or even supported the Allies in terms of numbers, then the Luftwaffe might have made all the difference. Flotillas of airships carpet-bombing a region before Panzer divisions move in, kept perfectly informed of enemy positions by those same airships. This also sets up a conflict within the Imperial High Command between the Conservatives and the Radicals of the new Luftwaffe (presumably led by a far-less-dissolute Goerring). Just a suggestion. Zahir 17:39, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    I agree with Marc- changing "humiliating peace" into "temporary ceasefire" would be the best solution- it doesn't even have to be an "official" ceasefire, just that Germany stood looking menacing on the North French coast while shifting their attention eastwards and the FK licked their wounds. As Jan points out, the FK's making peace is *not* QSS as it was never discussed with the group- hells, I only found out about it yesterday! And I just can't see why the FK would have made such a peace- the UK didn't after Dunkirk *here*.
    Also, I'd just like to put in a quick "Oi!" for the Arvorec Navy. The Isles may be small, but their Navy was nothing to be sneezed at- during not a few periods in history French trade in the British Sea was only only by sufferance of the Isles! Also, the Arvorchedeth have always been staunch allies of the FK (well, more Dumnonia and Kemr than England). Deiniol 18:00, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    Oh, dear. I proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back and that was not my intention. Jan and I did discuss this once. It must have been privately. That fault is mine as I have not been actively present on Conculture for several years. No work has been done on the idea. (This would be more than sufficient grounds to rule the idea as Inscriptum.) I find the Evacuation of Dunkirk to be an interesting event and pivotal to following events. 230 000 British forces and 100 000 French and Wenedyk forces are surrounded at Dunkirk. If there is no opportunity for their escape across the Channel then they will be captured by the Grand Alliance. This would at least be demoralising for the Federated Kingdoms. I would have assumed that the Federates would then sue for peace a la Hallifax. The peace would have neutralised the FK for an extended period.

    But David has allowed for a way out of this conundrum that I hadn't seen. Hessler rebuffs the Federates' peace initiative (Ho, I gave your man Chamberlain one worthless scrape of paper, what do you want with another one?!) Instead he prepares for an all out invasion of the Kingdoms, maybe even using the negotiations for extra time (extended Phony War.) What he doesn't expect is that while the FK has lost a major part of their land forces (and must rebuild them) the Royal Navies are intact and chafing at the leash. They still have the resources of the Empire to call upon, including the NAL; and the catch-cry of the War Party is "Never forget Dunkirk - Bring our Boys Home!"

    If this is unsuitable then I will declare the defeat at Dunkirk to be Unwritten and we can assume that either the Evacuation was successful or the Expeditionary forces retreated to Vichy. - AndrewSmith 19:43, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    Actually, a large number of POWs might well serve as a sticking point in interal FK politics. It would be easy for some politicos to simply say "Listen--its not like we approve of the Hun or wish him well, but the fact is we need to get our boys home, and he's not going to give'em back on our promise not to bother him." I would imagine that Hessler would actually demand the scrapping of the Royal Fleet(s), with negotiations stretching on and on and on. But the War Party (or in effect the War Wings of all parties) throw a serious spanner in the works. Odds are the War Party might include the First Lord of the Admiralty who inveigles (possibly with the King's help) and excuse to send the battleships on manuevers in the North Atlantic. This puts them out of harm's way so Lord Halifax cannot order then scrapped because they'll simply sail over to America. More, they're probably helping out protecting convoys bringing much-needed supplies to France! This is the final straw! Hessler says "Invade Britain and turn it into an Imperial conquest." And the fact Halifax failed to secure release of the POWs would probably play as well as Jimmy Carter's failure to rescue the hostages in Iran *here*. What do you think? Zahir 19:56, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    Of course I am aware that there's more to Hitler's madness than it would seem to the average non-historian. And it is also true that Hessler didn't have the same racial delusions (although I wouldn't be surprised if he had some of those as well). But hey, he could have had other delusions. He simply might have been corrupted by his own power. My guess is that he had the ambition to become emperor himself one day, and that he had visions about a huge empire stretching from Ireland to Greece. The comparison to Aelius Seianus comes to mind (yes, I've been watching "I, Claudius" lately!). He was indeed a competent officer, and the more his military and political actions became a success, the more he became obsessed with those ideas. And that might very well have gone hand by hand with symptoms similar to Stalin's.

    Marc, as usual, offers a creative solution to our problems: instead of a "humiliating peace", we go for a "slightly inconvenient ceasefire". I like that!

    As for your questions:

    1. How did the Commonwealth respond to what? Germany did not invade the FK at all! It invaded numerous countries on the European mainland, and therefore the Allies, the FK included, declared war on it. But there was no German invasion of the FK itself until the Battle for the Channel (I suggested 1944). So the Commonwealth will probably have done the same as the FK: stick to the ceasefire.
    2. Under what circumstances did the FK rejoin the war, and how? Well, see above. My guess is that when Hessler had consolidated his power in Europe he, blinded by his success against Russia, decided to add the British Isles to his collection.
    3. I can't tell you anything about France. Its caretaker, Christophe, hasn't been active for years, so you can take anything Marc and Dan say for authoritive.

    --IJzeren Jan 23:22, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    I have a few different suggestions, but I'll prepare them in terms of an actual proposal. This will begin as a WIP so perhaps the details can best be discussed there... Zahir 23:29, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    Normans in Ireland

    I've hit a bit of a brick wall when it comes to Irish history: the Normans. From what I know of Kemrese and Irish history *there*, the Normans had little or know involvement in Irish and Kemrese affairs. Unfortunately this leaves a rather big nasty that needs to be fill with something, and removes a large number of Irish historical personages of Norman descent.

    So I'm wondering how exactly the Kemrese went about their early sorties into Ireland, and how they managed to convince the Irish to let them in. In particular I need to know who IB's equivalent of Richard de Clare is, if there exists one. However they may have made their way in through some other weak spot besides Diarmait Mac Murchada...

    So many options, so little direction...

    --Kgaughan 15:10, 22 October 2005 (PDT)

    The history of the Kemrese in Ireland has always been said to be one of benign neglect, but that is because I know next to nothing of Irish history!

    I guess in at the time Kemrese military forces would have been cavalry based. Traditionally Knights of King Arthur stuff. After fighting the Normans in lla Ferch they would have been adapting to their enemies' heavily armoured style of fighting - especially their lords would. Kemrese bows would have also been used. Possibly they would have the advantage of military discipline and tactics. In what territory they could hold they would establish curths, fortified 'courts' where they would establish Kemrese law, similar to Irish law, but conducted in Brithenig. These would become castles.

    I think it would be safe to assume that the Kemrese would have behaved like the Normans in holding territory, just under different names. - AndrewSmith

    Slevania and Slevan in different languages

    Guys will you please add translations of Slevania and Slevan in different languages to the table on the Slevan name correction page? TIA! -- BPJ 14:12, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

    Invoking QSS?

    To my very great pleasure and pride, certain articles I have proposed have been "built upon" by far more senior members of IB than myself. Because of this, I would like to request that they be declared no longer proposals. Specifically, they are:

    I look forward to your response. That is, assuming I've properly understood the process. Zahir 18:02, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

    The process is indeed very simple, especially for proposals such as these that don't really impinge on anything. Such new facts about IB as you've discovered, once accepted as factual or not argued against, are simply considered Fact (QSS) -- no need to Invoke anything at all! Since it is clear that others are tinkering and building on them, then they have been accepted. If they have any "proposal" tags on them, feel free to remove them! [PB]

    Artwork sought for Saint Glorian

    Could one of you artists please create an illustration to Saint Glorian, preferably a medieval illumination showing his martyrdom? -- BPJ 01:45, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

    I'll give it a whirl. Zahir 08:42, 27 October 2005 (PDT)
    I will too, if you can tell me his iconography (your description is not yet sufficient to really compile an icon). You say he is a Dux, so that helps greatly.
    Tell me where he was martyred (in the city, in the country, by a cave, on a hill, etc) and in what manner (stoned, shot through with arrows, hanged, crucified, butchered, etc). What is Glorian renown for (apart from being one of the holy martyrs)? -- what theological or Christological point does he represent (if any -- was he known for feeding the hungry or giving to the poor or defeating the Darkness of Paganism)? What are his attributes? If he was a Dux, was he a warrior that was converted to Christianity (like St. Martin) or was he known for his defense of the faith of the True Cross? Or, was he a teacher and scholar, a theologian? Will also help to know if Slevania is Orthodox or Catholic. [PB]
    I don't know very much apart from his being a Dux and a defender of the faith. Glorian's own doctrinal position is a bit hazy, since he lived in the Dark Ages and Slevania had been cut off from direct contact with Rome as well as Byzantium for centuries due to the successive invasions of Pannonia by diverse barbarian peoples from the east, but those who venerate him now are certainly Catholics. He was not a convert, but rather the last of a line of Christian Duces of unknown length, but theoretically going back to Roman times. As for the manner of his death he was probably struck down by spears on the battlefield. It is not known what nationallity his slayers were, but they were probably pagan Avars, Slavs or Hungarians and not fellow Slevans/Romans (there probably were nopagan Slevans in his time.) -- BPJ 08:17, 28 October 2005 (PDT)

    A trick

    Redirect pages have no content of their own, and therefore there's rarely a need to categorise them. But in some cases it can be useful. Here's a trick that might come in handy in these cases:

    If you want to categorise a redirect page, you can make it work by writing the category on the same line (it doesn't work if you put it elsewhere, like we normally do). For example, I just created the following redirect: Courland. On that page, the text is:

    #REDIRECT [[Latvia]] [[Category:Defunct Nations]]

    If you click on Courland now, you'll be redirected to the Latvia page, where all there's to know about it can be found, but in the meantime "Courland" is nicely listed within Category:Defunct Nations!

    --IJzeren Jan 05:56, 31 October 2005 (PST)

    Oh, neat! Thanks! I'd thought it was simply impossible to categorize redirects. Nik 19:35, 5 November 2005 (PST)


    For those of us who are not native speakers of English, I have created a little template, Template:English. You can use if you want a native speaker to proofread an article you wrote. I thought a template would be a good solution for such cases. You can use it by putting the text {{English}} at the top of the page you want checked. All articles submitted that way will show up in the Category:English. I'd kindly like to ask all native speakers of English around here to check out that category from time to time. --IJzeren Jan 11:44, 31 October 2005 (PST)

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