Lla Dafern/Archive 10

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

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The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December



All you Wikipædians out there, may want a look at… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_Illbeth Quentin

This should probably be used with a {{subst:User_Illbeth}} tag, since I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up deleted. Nik 22:23, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Berrennekka Six

  • Here * the trial of the Benghazi Six is pending. Any thoughts on how it would play * there *? Theophilus88 13:21, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Java Script Popups

Do Any of Y'all know Java Script? Wikipedia has Java Script popups and I like them, very much. I've pulled the pages I know to my own user page, if anyone knows how to help. :) BoArthur 13:21, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I'm learning java as part of my University course. I'm not that good at it though. --Sikulu 03:50, 4 May 2006 (PDT)


I've been reading through the latest version of the CoN on the website (see here), and there are discrepancies between the information there and what's writen in the wiki. Also, the map on the bottom of the CoN webpage needs to be changed (Batavian Guiana is listed as part of the Commonwealth, there's something that looks like Northern Ireland *here* is coloured red, Miskito looks a bit big and the other little nations next to South Africa need to be defined). Finally, the map lists Tejas and Xrivizaja as associate members. --Sikulu 03:58, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Tejas? Surely. --Quentin 06:32, 6 May 2006 (PDT)
I don't know for sure which one is right but as far as I can tell, they have no history with any of the 3 FK kingdoms. They might be somehow linked to the *castillan* commonwealth although they seem pretty independent for that. --Marc Pasquin 09:41, 6 May 2006 (PDT)
I think the red bit off Ireland is Man, part of Kemr. Or should be, as I'm not aware of any part of insular Ireland being part of Kemr. What's a "Miskito"? If you mean Mosquito Coast, it's about right. The southern African countries are all in place. Tejas is an Associate Member since the 2003 restoration -- the NAL have provided considerable support and investment, and have bequeathed to the Tejans a rather pro-American government. Srivijaya has been listed as an Associate Member for years now. It awaits to be seen the history behind that. Elemtilas 10:46, 6 May 2006 (PDT)
Thats a bit of a stretch going from "you help us" to "we joined an international orginasition you belong and take mutual commitement to it". --Marc Pasquin 17:08, 6 May 2006 (PDT)
Xrirampur? --01:05, 7 May 2006 (PDT)
It was a little more than just a little help. Keep in mind that the present queen and royal family and a sizeable portion of the government and other assorted well-to-do folks that have since returned to Tejas were Tejan expats living in the NAL until 2003. (Think of it akin to the Cuban exile situation here in the US.) Also keep in mind that associate members do not make the same commitments that regular members do. It's a different ballgame for the "green countries". Elemtilas 15:57, 7 May 2006 (PDT)
That still stretching it. It would explain why they might have sign a treaty of some sort with the NAL but since when is the commonwealth recruiting outside of ex-colonies anyway ?
Fair enough. I won't say it's not a "stretch", but that's the way it's been. Kingdom of Madagascar was once a Chinese colony. Elemtilas 17:39, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
"that's the way it's been" ? I did not realise it was QSS, when did that happen ? --Marc Pasquin 20:02, 9 May 2006 (PDT)
2003. Elemtilas 20:11, 9 May 2006 (PDT)
The only message I could find about that year (#15764) was you saying:
"Along those lines, I wouldn't be surprised if the Kingdom of Tejas opted for Associate Membership. After all, HM was practically fetched up in the NAL and they and the FK were instrumental in the restoration."
Thats not exactly making it QSS. Sounds more like a proposal that no one commented on. --Marc Pasquin 20:53, 9 May 2006 (PDT)
I'll have to agree with Marc on this one; but I have no issue with them being "Associate Members" if it just means they're more or less trade partners. More than that, and I'd want to see a cohesive proposal. BoArthur 07:06, 10 May 2006 (PDT)
to the previous poster, what about Xrirampur ?--Marc Pasquin 04:36, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
The Mosquito Coast here is rather smaller that what it is here. Also, the Southern part of Africa includes Monomotapa and Lesotho (are they actually independent countries?). --Sikulu 06:05, 8 May 2006 (PDT)
What is Xrirampur for Srivijaya? --Quentin 09:08, 10 May 2006 (PDT)
I thought that _was_ Xrirampur...BoArthur 09:27, 10 May 2006 (PDT)
Xrirampur is an SR enclave in India. --Sikulu 03:31, 11 May 2006 (PDT)
Yes, but it's also a Romanization scheme name. ;) BoArthur 07:24, 11 May 2006 (PDT)
Oh, sorry. Xrivizaja is the Xrirampur romanisation of Srivijaya. I assume that Scandinavian scholars invented it. --Sikulu 07:34, 11 May 2006 (PDT)

Kanawiki 62

For IB's version of Lost… --Quentin 11:42, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the UN equivalency

Is there anything like United Nations? And if so, what structure, and how SNORist Russia would view it? --Lordziba, May 8th, 2006.

The is the League of Nations, probably just like the one that existed *here* between WWI and WWII; the only difference is there's no USA, so it's a much more stable entity. Do we have an article about it here on the wiki? BoArthur 13:13, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

National Anthems

Do we have any other than Wafts still the Old Blue Sheet and Haç Xliponia? I don't see God save the Queen for England, as it is a Georgian song and was originally blatantly anti-Stuart, but if someone wrote a history for it, it would make sense. I could see "And Did those Feet" or even more so, "Land of Hope and Glory" as English, the former because it refers constantly to England (that didn't stop the BNP nicking it) and the latter because, at least for *our* Commonwealth Games, it's English. I also don't see the Marsellaise as being French National Anthem, because of the greater respect for Napoleonic Dominion in France. *Our* Napoleon apparently banned it! --Quentin 07:23, 13 May 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the british anthems, further suggestion could come of this:
Regarding the Marseillaise, I would imagine it was re-adopted by the republic after Napoleon III abdicated. There is nothing in it that would attack the napoleonic era anyway.
The various provinces of australasia would use the anthem of the motherland (except for aothearoa of course) with probably some sort of official/unofficial provincial sporting song
NF will have a song which is based on Vexila regis (pre-revolution monarchist song), on the O Canada (which was originaly a french-canadian song) or on the Gens du Pays (the unofficial Quebec national anthem)--Marc Pasquin 09:57, 13 May 2006 (PDT)
The Arvorec national anthem, which was online at one point, is The Gods Love Armorica, which would be A garan an dhwyw Arvorec in the current revision of the language.
On which note, it may be of Interest to Certain Persons to know that the revision of Arvorec and the Embassy's webpages will most likely be online and available for your viewing pleasure by the end of the month. Deiniol 12:37, 13 May 2006 (PDT)
National anthems --Quentin 04:56, 16 May 2006 (PDT)

First Lords.

I wonder of what First Lords/Tosiags there have been? I think Churchill, Lloyd George, Margaret Thatcher were probably people in IB, but we know there was not Tory/Whig split in IB, so perhaps Benjamin D'Israeli and William Gladstone were different people. --Quentin 04:55, 16 May 2006 (PDT)

The equivalent of Churchill was Tosiag, but I think only three First Lords have been worked out: Lord Halifax, Sherrinford Bell and the First Lord at the start of Queen Victoria's reign. Was there no Tory/Whig split? Zahir 06:21, 16 May 2006 (PDT)
Probably not in the same way as *here*. --Sikulu 06:25, 16 May 2006 (PDT)

NAL province codes

I've seen these used in News pages etc, but didn't know if there is a definive list. Please can people see if this is OK? --Quentin 04:42, 17 May 2006 (PDT)

Excellent! Even though UT isn't a province, it still gets a code. I suspect these codes would be used by the Post Office and other delivery firms. I hate TM for Ter Mair, but there's not much choice there! Elemtilas 17:00, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
Yes, I wanted something for postcodes. Do the NAL have ZIP/Postcodes? --Quentin 23:41, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
Probably, yes. Some kind of zone system anyway. Big cities almost certainly are divided into postal zones. You might see an address like "401 High Street, Georgetown 2, TM". Suburban areas might have post codes along familiar lines: "No. 8 Frederick Pike, Forest Oak, M07 FA1, TM". I don't think they'd be terribly useful out in rural areas: "Box 43, Rural Route 6, Cumbria, TM". Other countries will certainly have their own systems. Elemtilas 07:42, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
Like the British system, where the letters actually stand for something, or more like the Canadian one? --Quentin 07:58, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
Could be that "M07" is "Postal District 7 of Centrev Montgomery" while "FA1" is "Zone 1 of FForest Oak". I guess problems might be encountered if there are several towns that all start with the same letter in one of several ridings that all start with the same letter within one province. On the other hand, it could be more random... Elemtilas 22:37, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

Italy, DeCameron and our "Laws"

Since the arrival of Sectori, I've been thinking, since DeCameron has come and gone so quickly, do we keep everything he contributed about Italy and its statelets as QSS or do we go with QAA? So much of it is very close to here, after all...BoArthur 15:33, 18 May 2006 (PDT)

I personally would be in favor of at least some revisions being allowed to make IB's Italy fit more nearly into the rest of that world. Zahir 19:02, 18 May 2006 (PDT)
I'd be strongly opposed to wiping out all Decameron's work- I rather like Italy *there*, it's interesting. However, revision and tweaking is definitely needed in a few areas (like Istria). Deiniol 19:15, 18 May 2006 (PDT)
Revisions only if they contravene older QSS (such as the territorial bits that wer mentioned a few months ago). I'm sure if we want to strongly enough we can always find some way to go around was as been written without actualy breaking QSS. --Marc Pasquin 19:24, 18 May 2006 (PDT)
If I am to take over Elba, I'm going to change the names of monarchs prior to Claudio V to fit Elbic of their time period, and already have changed the population in response to a note on the talk page (actually to slightly less than what it is *here*). I understand that is accepted. If it's not, feel free to tell me. I'm still new. Sectori 14:55, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
I second Deiniol's opinion. The question how QSS somebody's work is does not depend on the amount of time he's spent with us. Decemaron has been around for quite a while, albeit with long intervals, and don't quite some work. I'm sure we can work with it in such way that we add to it without invalidating it. Minor tweaking, like in the case of Istria, is of course a different matter. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:23, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
Doesn't seem like anyone is suggestion really major changes, but that some revisions and expansions be allowed. Must point out that even after my Ontario article passed beyond the proposals stage, Marc was insisting on some changes and personally I've been willing to listen. Zahir 07:08, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
What changes were that ? --Marc Pasquin 09:45, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
The article specifically gave an overview of Ontario's history in the 18th century which you disputed after it had ceased to be a proposal. I don't really mind much, because I see IB as more a collaborative project than anything else and there was nothing you objected to that I was in love with. Also, the changes were really about fine-tuning details rather than altering overall themes or ideas (like Ontario being rather "spooky" in the way Maine tends to be *here*). And that's an example of what I think we might want to consider doing vis-a-vis Italy. In fact, I'm going to make a little bit of proposal along those lines this weekend I think. Zahir 11:35, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
The difference though is that it appeared to me (rightly or wrongly) to be idirectly breaking QSS or at least QAA. My opposition higher up is to literaly changing elements just because someone got a better idea afterward. --Marc Pasquin 12:01, 20 May 2006 (PDT)
Thanks for the comments. I was just wondering in light of Sectori's work on Elba how much we might change. BoArthur 07:02, 22 May 2006 (PDT)

Japanese fads?

Do we have Poquemon and Man~ga (mind my romanisation, probably totally wrong) in IB? I was thinking of, after finishing and sorting out KW62, that perhaps Telefang and Poquemon swapped places in IB. I also thought, what do the Irish do about Handheld gaming? Has it taken off yet? What if... S.T. came to the AÉ? --Quentin 02:46, 19 May 2006 (PDT)

I think that Manga does exist *there*. One of the comics I invented (see Rabbit), was in manga format when it was realeased in Japan. Also, if you look up Anima, a (red) link to manga exists. --Sikulu 03:07, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
For all things Nipponnophile, you'll want to pass the idea by Nik, although I'm fairly sure he won't disagree with you. :) BoArthur 06:27, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
Just my opinion but certain japanese fads *here* that have an electronic nature could have come from Ireland. Instead of "tamagochi" and "pokemon" you could have "riom-fomori".--Marc Pasquin 09:23, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
Sorry, that's what I meant. My point was that "Telefang" sounds more Indo-European (although not Irish) than Poquemon. --Quentin 10:05, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
Fair enough, I thought "telefang" was the actual name of some sort of new fad *here*.--Marc Pasquin 11:26, 19 May 2006 (PDT)
No, it was a total ripoff of Pokémon. See Wikipedia:Telefang. --12:31, 19 May 2006 (PDT)

Anima and mañga definitely exist. As to poquemon specifically, I don't know. There are probably similar anima and manga, though. Nik 21:08, 25 May 2006 (PDT)

About making and uploading flags

Older members have heard me say it before but I will repeat it for newer members: Please do not take flags, in toto or elements thereof, from the "Flags of the World" websites. These are not open source. The recently uploaded flag of Tuscany is reusing the COA from one of Jaume Ollé (a FOTW member). The editorial staff (which incidently I am a member of) do allow resuing some images if they are non-modified and with proper credits however wiki, due to their nature, tend to invalidate copyrights and are considered off limits.

If you can't find a free-of-use image to illustrate a flag (or any other images for that matter) just ask me or any of the other list members that are interested in infography instead.

--Marc Pasquin 12:12, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

Thank you, Marc. Me, I would much rather see original (though properly and vexilogically busy) flags being created rather than simply pasting a preëxisting flag onto an IB location. Unless a good story can be concocted to explain the flag or else there is a really good historical reason to recycle the same flag. Elemtilas 22:32, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

Laurentian Spelling System

laurentian spelling system

Here is the first draft of the spelling system used for writting Laurentian. I would like to get some feed back, not so much on how it look in regard to laurentian itself but rather as to if it look plausible given the following elements:

  • It was devised in the 19th century
  • It was devised by journalists and writers (not linguists)
  • It was meant to be phonetic (relatively speaking)

So it would not look too "scientific" I have reused the same symbols (u, h & ny) for more then one sounds the idea being that although pronounced differently, there was no cases (that I could find anyway) where use one sound instead of the other would change the meaning. Those writers then would not have made the difference.

At the same time (although its not on the chart) I have decided that the assibilation would be written ("ts" or "dz") even though it is used consistently (i.e. there is no word that contain just "ti", only "tsi"). My reason was it is strong enough to have been detected and that it helped in some case to tell the difference between francian and laurentian proper names which they would have been familiar with: a person called "Mathieu" is a francian while "Matsieu" is a Laurentian. This aspect then would go with the politico-cultural aspect of the system's creation.

Finaly, it would have been meant as a phonetic system. However, to avoid situation where using french-style diacritics would have cause confusion (the different sounds represented by "ê" and "è" have colapsed in Francian but not Laurentian), they used clusters instead of inventing new ones thus allowing them to use already existing printer's types and typewriters.

comments ? suggestions ? --Marc Pasquin 17:46, 21 May 2006 (PDT)

Very good! I find the degree to which it diverts from Francien fascinating. Some things seem very Fracien, others the other way. --Quentin 00:44, 25 May 2006 (PDT)


There are lots of archived logs (protect, upload, delete) which I've nominated for deletion. The archives haven't been updated for a month and you don't need them anyway, because of Special:Specialpages. Because the pages are protected I've nominated them for deletion on the talk page. [QS] --Quentin 04:51, 23 May 2006 (PDT)


The Cambrians are due for a Senate election in 2006. Has it taken place? Will it take place? News stories? --Quentin 11:48, 26 May 2006 (PDT)

I wrote something on the Cambrian election for Conculture at the start of the year. Search for IB: Kemrese Election: first predictions for 2006. Unfortunately I haven't had the chance to follow up on it. The Election will be on the 17th June. The numbers still look good for Gion Boibont. I have been keeping an eye on the polls. A couple of seats have swapped and then back again. The Freedom Party have been taking a bruising for some reason. I plan to do a poll soon. Unfortunately I have an exam on electronic recordkeeping at the same time as the election so I'm permitting a free hand for ideas, issues of the day, and news stories. - AndrewSmith 21:39, 26 May 2006 (PDT).

Disputed Territory

Moved from Talk:Disputed territory

What is this disputed territory east of Afganopakistan(?) ? Should we just make it a country? Seth 20:52 (PST), 25 May 2006

Good question. I thought we decided Afghanopakistan was called the MNR, anyway, because Pakistan is an abbreviation for Pashto Afghan Kashmir Beluchistan and made no sense in IB where the British never ruled it. We could make it a country. --Quentin 00:35, 26 May 2006 (PDT)
I can't speak for India, so much, but I do know that it was disputed between the countries that surround it, like Kashmir *here*. BoArthur 06:09, 26 May 2006 (PDT)
Well, Seeing as how it isn't being resolved, like Kashmir *here*, and seeing as how we have enough disputed territories, why not make it a condominium? Seth 20:21, 26 May 2006 (PST)
Part of the problem is that we make too many different things condominiums. There can be too much of a good thing. --Quentin 00:23, 27 May 2006 (PDT)

Indeed, a few genuinely contested territories are good fodder for further development Nik 19:56, 27 May 2006 (PDT)


In GWII especially. I have a feeling that:

  • Middle Africa is stuck between the Chinese and Ethiopians
  • The Chinese got most of Middle Africa as part of CEA after GWII
  • In the Great Oriental War the Chinese government couldn't really handle Katanga and Kasai and they fell *back to the independance.

Is this OK? --Quentin 14:32, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

Oh, have a look over Katanga#History. That would help. --Quentin 14:32, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

Paradox Entertainment - Swedish open-sourced history games

Don't know how many of you play strategic PC games, but I would like to point you on Swedish company Paradox, which has devised a new type of strategic game: open-sourced history one. They are on a market for a quit few years (since MM IIRC). Their games cover today history of Europe/World since 1066 till 1953 in four games, where each focuses on specific aspects of each time: Crusader Kings (1066-1492), Europa Universalis (1419-1820), Victoria (1820-1920) and Hearts of Iron (1936-1953). Played all, lotta fun. The aspect, which closes it to perfect, it is its open-sourceness: you can use the engine and fill it with your own mods. Fans already made many mods, including Roman empire and some weird ones (according to Harry Turtledove's althist books etc.) As I was "discussing" with Zahir the Fall Rheingold, I thought, if I could write a mod to simulate it ;) and that let/lead me to write this message ;) Just to enlighten you Jan II. 01:11, 31 May 2006 (PDT)

Sounds interesting. --Sikulu 02:30, 31 May 2006 (PDT)
If you need graphics for your mod, don't hesitate to ask. I always thought it would be intersting to turn IB into a game. --Marc Pasquin 17:50, 31 May 2006 (PDT)
I'm not much here, so my word isn't taken to a severe degree, but I say go for it! Seth 5:43, 1 June 2006 (PST)
I thought of creating IB mod for Civilization 3 (that is, a map with IB world, changing the nations to the most powerful ones in IB (such as changing the Zulu to the Ethiopians and such) and altering some units (adding airships)) but as for map there was a limitation of max 31 nation and therefore it would have been hard to recreate current IB map, it would have been hard to realistically create dirigibles as well probably. But if some game offers larger modding capabilities then you could try it indeed. Abdul-aziz 01:49, 1 June 2006 (PDT)
I'm not sure how good Civilization 4 is on this matter (it won't work on my computer (found that out the hard war, grr)). Making IB during the colonial era might be better, or just focusing on certain areas, like the Civ 3 Conquest scenarios might be good. --Sikulu 06:34, 1 June 2006 (PDT)
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