Lla Dafern/Archive 19

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

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2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
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2008: January – June | July – December


panslavic fascists discovered SNOR


watch at 1:16

ridiculous... Jan II. 11:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow... and I just wasted half an hour reading the comments... buncha morons. Dalmatinac 17:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
this is the second time this has happened (though with a different picture). I'm thinking of getting a trademark on the SNOR's logo just so I can sue them.--Marc Pasquin 22:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I would not mind if you did, though I'm not sure how you'd go about it. I would assume that a "friendly" letter from a lawyer to the legal department at Youtube could yield some results with respect to "Slavic Power". I guess at the least, they'd have to remove the video or else edit your image out of it.
Even though SNOR and its associated images, etc., are part of a communal project, this work of art was made by you and you are the owner of the copyright and any associated trademarks, unless you've released it to the public domain. There is a copyright notice on the Main Page which makes it clear.
Did any of the commentators notice the SNOR / CHOP image as being out of place? Youtube comments are notorious for being especially harsh on mistakes of this sort. Elemtilas 03:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
Probably it's in poor taste to poke fun of a non-native speaker's English, but I am amused by the comment "Sometimes we will unite"... it sounds so half-hearted. Do you have a YouTube account, Marc? It might be better to start by contacting the uploader directly and asking him/her to take it down. That's what I did when part of Henua's history was plagiarized, and the offending page was soon taken down(though that was done by a corporation rather than a YouTube nut, so they were more likely to behave reasonably). Benkarnell 03:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
i have an u-tube account, i may (and i'll do) start it. and the history how i get there: there was a quite dumb article in some SF fanzine on so-called "neopaganism" and in it was a link to some "slavic neopagans", so, as i create the Eerä thing, i checked. in related videos there was some "neopaganic" metal band from serbia (!!) and also this link. pure curiosity brought me the discovery of SNOR materials misuse. but also the fact that such freaks are among us. fortunately, i do not read comments on u-tube, they are mostly insane. Jan II. 06:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
greetings, your video Slavic Power breaches copyright of community project Ill Bethisad by using its material. in 1:16 min of your video, you are using the poster of SNOR/CHOP, made by the member of the community project, without permission and in project depreciating context. retract the part or face the consequences from you-tube administration. on behalf of Ill Bethisad community project, Jan Havliš

I told the IB people about this before. I was shocked when I saw the SNOR poster of the SNOR army soldier with the 'stache. Sometimes real-life politics still creep in fiction, and of the wrong kind. --Chinofilipino 13:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

SNORist Filipinas

Would I be allowed to contribute to Filipinas? I want to experiment about a SNORist regime in Filipinas from 1972 to 1988.

--Chinofilipino 08:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Breathanach site down

http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/lang/breath.html - Another one down :-(. Benkarnell 04:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. There is what appears to be a text here: http://www.pichismo.narod.ru/Breathanach.htm - - - No, better still is the Breton language Wikipedia article, which has all the accented characters in: http://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathanach
I dare say none of us write Breton with any competency, so I have no idea where the article came from. Who ever Luzmael and Kadwalan are, trugarez! Elemtilas 01:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

From Hugo

Hugo, caretaker of Istria, sent me, via a couple of e-mails:

"I am currently trying to reduce my Internet presence for various reasons and have also had to remove my Istria web page. In that vein I was wondering if I might be able to ask you to remove my name from your site... I don't actually have wiki editing privileges but I've attached what I think is most of the text I had for IB along with many of the pictures. I'm afraid it's looking like quite a big file now."

So far, I've archived all of his non-Istrian material into these new pages:

The material is a couple of years old, so I didn't mark the new pages as Proposals; but it's also quite possible that many people will be seeing them for the first time here, so maybe there are some surprises in store. They do seem to be meticulously written to fit with earlier QSS content.

Benkarnell 08:45, 21 May 2012 (PDT)

marcomania, quadia and samartia

greetings from behind :) still alive and interested. recently i started to get deeper in the history of bohemia and moravia. i have discovered many interesting new information. the first one, roman empire since antonius pius tried to establish friendly foederates on territory of B&M by officially acknowledging local rulers (coins - rex quadis datus). also, when marcus aurelius invaded lands of marcomans and quadi, there were numerous celtic tribes cotini, who were supposed to help, but *here* they did not and were either just moved eastwards or exterminated by roman army. so, imagine they helped *there*, creating thus optimal population for romanisation, including less advanced germanic tribes, and later romanisation of slavs, who came there 400 years later. so we may postulate, that marcomania, quadia/panonia superior were maybe fully abandoned by aurelianus in 270, rather they became not so tightly bound foederati, which will create much stronger base for further slavic romanisation there. also, so called great moravia would be rather slavo-romanic empire, the fully slavic ethnics survived more western only, bohemian tribes, whereas in moravia the three tribes (golensizians, olmutzians, moravians) get romanised in a different extent. Jan II. 00:22, 11 October 2012 (PDT)

What in the...

Wow, just wow. Does anyone post here anymore? Like, just, I don't even know... Seth 4:40, 17 November 2012 PTS

Sure! Here I am. Just so everyone knows, I will spend a little time over the next few days going through Special:UncategorizedPages to see what lost mathoms await me there, and file them away in their correct drawers. Right now the page has 141 items. A few pages there might just need to be deleted. Benkarnell 09:14, 19 December 2012 (PST)

Yahoo groups and mobile numbers

I checked in to Conculture for the first time in a while, and it seems I can't even look at the discussion board without giving Yahoo my mobile number. Is that the only way to see Conculture now, or has somebody found a work-around? Benkarnell 19:14, 3 September 2014 (PDT)


I'll take this opporitunity to greet lla Societad, members old and new, and introduce myself and my goals for this amazing website. My user name is Cadmus, and I've taken an interest in alt-histories for quite some time. I think my introduction to the genre was the Leviathan trilogy by Scott Westerfield (which is aimed at a young-adult audience, but a jolly good read nonetheless), and I ended up stumbling onto this page when I was researching conlangs and ended up stumbling upon, but what else, Brithenig. I find it inspiring that there's at least one community of conculturists who aren't so uptight about their work, and who have fleshed out not only a history, but societies, languages, biographies, and what have you. What made me a little disappointed, however, was the fact that the website seemed to be abandoned for at least two years, when there was still so much work to be done! I want to revive this wiki, so to speak, and, with proper permission, perhaps make a film (in the vein of CSA) that takes place *there*, detailing some war or another, or the history of a given nation. I'd like to thank Elemtilas and BoArthur for welcoming me to lla Societad and warning me about the Helvetian food. If there are any openings for a caretaker occupation, tell me, or inform me that I am to create my given concept or territory myself, if that is the case. Oof, I hope I'm following etiquette here.

You're doing just fine, just fine. Remember ~~~~ following any of your comments to sign and date them. Otherwise, I think many large areas of the world have some established QSS, but I think there's still much room to play around. I think we've made most of the broad strokes that define the world, as it were, but I don't see why you can't come in and build out one of the niches. I think you've got some ideas percolating on Lago Grande, and I'm not adverse to your building out the area. I've only put in the framework, at this point. I envisaged a California of yore, as it were. There would be missions established, and there would be fundamentalist Mormon sects (think here's FLDS and other splinter groups). I think there would be much you could do in the area. Feel free to build up your proposals, using the proposal tag {{proposal}} , and I think we'll get off to a great start.
For example...I'm currently taking an interest in Nik's Corea. She and I had quite a long history of working together, and before I make any broad changes, beyond fleshing out what's been established, I'll run it by her to see how she feels on the subject. We all play in each other's corner, and add things, here and there. BoArthur 16:14, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

Hello! Seeing as how I just joined and all, I suppose I'll use this section to introduce myself alongside Cadmus. My name is Juan Martin Velez, and I first heard of IB about a year or two ago. I was (and indeed still am) quite interested in linguistics and language learning at the time, and IB's alt-Romance conlangs and continued prominence of such languages as Aragonese and Low Saxon intrigued me heavily. I also found the idea of the NAL as a sort of multilingual United States of Canada with a heavy Aboriginal/Native American element incredibly fun to work with for stories. Over time, I came up with my own headcanons, if you will, of day-to-day life in IB, and began to wonder about perhaps pitching my ideas to Lla Societad. Eventually, I joined Conlang and did indeed pitch some suggestions about things such as IB's music scene and New Amsterdam's almost certainly distinctive Dutch dialect, but until now I haven't been an official member. I'd like to expand a great deal on IB's cultural life and mentalities, as well as flesh out the Native languages and European dialects of the NAL (it must be hard to run a country with so many languages!). Also, I think I might like to explore the logistics of various countries, including the train systems, airship manufacturers, and the like. I'd like to use this information to eventually write stories and screenplays set in, as the Welsh say, "The World". Perhaps, as Cadmus suggested, they could be political satires in the vein of the film C.S.A., or they could just be semi-realistic speculative fiction about the typical life of an American (or Louisianan, or Montreiano, or Oregonian...) schoolchild or white-collar desk zombie. One question: How should I add on to the ideas of others without throwing QSS to the wind? As much as I'd like to integrate as many of my proposals as possible, I'm worried about perhaps contradicting what's already been written. Should I discuss my additions on the Talk page before writing them up? I plan to work mostly on niches, of course, but even that can have far-reaching implications. One last thing: I would like to thank Elemtilas for officially inducting me into Lla Societad, as well as both him and Boroparkpyro for discussing some of my ideas and helping me to better develop them on Conculture. May Helvetian food never touch your lips. Juan Martin Velez, 00:23, 28 July 2015

The best way to avoid treading on QSS is to read it thoroughly and try to integrate your ideas with what's written. On the wiki, the {{proposal}} tag is the official way to signify that your work is not yet official. Talk Page messages explaining new changes are also helpful, as are Conculture discussions (especially since not everyone watches the Wiki closely these days). Welcome, çene fotuna, and bon ffad! Benkarnell 10:55, 23 August 2015 (PDT)

BTW, any other states in Southeast Asia?

What probably happened to Portuguese Timor? Does it even exist?--General tiu 16:55, 3 September 2015 (PDT)

Adding on to that, what is the status of Macau *here*? Is it Portuguese or not? Juan Martin Velez Linares 19:07, 03 September 2015
Well, *here*, Macau is, like Hong Kong, a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China. They have some level of internal autonomy and their own legal system and their own currency -- though I would suppose that also as with Hong Kong, Macau must be subject to considerable central government interference in its internal affairs. Maybe they have their own version of the Umbrella Movement...Elemtilas 18:30, 3 September 2015 (PDT)
...dearie me, I meant *there*... Juan Martin Velez Linares 21:37, 3 September 2015 (CDT)
LOL, that's Padraic for you. ☺ ... *there* it's likely a part of Canton. I wonder if it saw much action in the Cantonese War. BoArthur 09:13, 4 September 2015 (PDT)
But I think Macau was Portuguese until the Chinese took it over possibly during the Great Oriental War. General tiu 12:38, 4 September 2015 (PDT)
Timor has always been grouped with Molucos. There's a QSS map showing specifically that it was part of the Castilian colony of the Filipinas around 1650 (http://cinduworld.tripod.com/seasia_in_ib.htm). But there is nothing on the entire wiki about Timor specifically, and Roger's page does mention the Portuguese being involved. Could Timor have been part of Filipinas merely as part of an Iberian Union type situation? The union seems to have happened, but our pages on Portugal and Monarchs of Castile and Leon disagree over the details. I'd say the status and history of Timor is more QAA than QSS.
(EDIT) - This came up before, five years ago! Kim, you asked the same question, and I said essentially the same thing. Everything seems to be repeating itself. It's fitting to quote Roger's response:
Always a jolt to see one's old work referenced :-)))) (Sorry about the link to a Geocities page, now extenct.) Yes, *here* there certainly were Portuguese in Indonesia early on. And at some point in the 16th or 17th C, Spain and Portugal were officially "united" under the Spanish crown-- didn't last long, maybe 50 years. But I think that was probably when Port. established itself in the archipelago. When the political union ended, they were pretty much left out in the cold I suspect. My impression is that the Port. seemed to be more interested in the trade, while it was the Spanish (Jesuits) who were more active in spreading Catholicism.
I don't know whether Port./Spain ever had control of the entire island of Timor, or why they ended up with just their little enclave on the eastern end of the island. Likely Dutch pressure in the 18th/19th C, when Port. was a lot less active in the Pacific (perhaps having given up to the Spanish and Dutch?) Perhaps the Spanish lost interest in the Spice islands (for reasons I cited on the webpage) and allowed Portugal to continue on in Timor as a sop after the political union dissolved.
As to IB developments (I'm vague on this, as I'm not a real follower of things)-- my thought was that the _Spanish_ retained control of the Moluccas and Lesser Sundas, along with the PI etc., until whenever the Moluccan independence movement got going (probably early 20th C.) I don't really know why I drew the boundary that cut off eastern Timor from the western part, except perhaps Majapahit was simply powerful enough to reclaim it at some time when the Spanish were distracted, or decided that Timor was sort of a backwater and not worth defending?? So in my scenario, the Portuguese might not have lingered on in eastern Timor-- it would have been the Spanish. That has consequences for the local languages, which are *here* full of Port. loans, and almost no clear Spanish loans. As you can tell, I haven't really thought this through very clearly. If someone wants to revise this scenario, you're welcome to do so, as I'm not really in a position anymore to continue as "Lord of the Region" (except that the basic outline should survive-- two Hindu/Buddhist states + an independent Moluccas.
Amusing side-note: in 1971/2 when I was in Java, I saw a litle picture book on Port.Timor published by the Port. embassy in Jakarta. They were trying to promote it as a tourist destination. But asided from some really stunning natural beauties, the place was a dump....a real backwater. Very little development had taken place. Buildings in Dili, the capital, were decrepit; there were hardly any paved roads etc etc. Why the Port. hung on to the place for so long, or why the Indonesians didn't try to take it over much earlier, was a mystery to me. Of course when they did take over, in 1975, it opened a can of worms, mainly because of the religious differences plus several centuries of Port. influence, weak as it may have been. Maybe the Indonesians suspected there was oil in the surrounding sea, but they never got a chance to develop it, if they knew. (RM, https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/conculture/conversations/messages/36589 36589)
The thread ended there. Interesting thoughts, interesting history. Benkarnell 23:07, 7 September 2015 (PDT)
So, Roger gave permission to allow the existence of East Timor *there*? --General tiu 08:46, 8 September 2015 (PDT)
It seems to me that he said, "If someone wants to revise this scenario, you're welcome to do so." And it seems that you're willing to revise it. So, with deference to QSS and our departed comrade's blessing, go, and build your proposal, Herr General! BoArthur 12:47, 8 September 2015 (PDT)
I will honor his wish! BTW, I did add about Macau and I typed it was conquered by China during the Great Oriental War. I am still thinking if Portugal got it back or remained Cantonese. If Canton could give Hong Kong to the England to gain aid for reconstruction, why not give Portugal back Macao? General tiu 18:22, 8 September 2015 (PDT)
An interesting idea. Or was it awarded not to Canton, but to Fujian or some other entity? And they followed Canton's lead? BoArthur 09:51, 9 September 2015 (PDT)
But since Portugal did fought on the side of the Allies in the Great Oriental War, it is certain they want Macau back. General tiu 10:14, 9 September 2015 (PDT)
I think that's how it went down, then, given Hong Kong's reversion to the British in hopes of economic assistance/development, that Macau was similarly offered to the Portuguese. BoArthur 08:20, 15 September 2015 (PDT)


How common are tramways in IB? Besides systems that *here* were ended for reasons that didn't happen *there* (e.g. GM streetcar conspiracy, Great Depression and so on), what about systems which were ended simply because they were outcompeted by the automobile (like the Paris and Zaragoza tram systems)? Did they survive *there*? Also, are existing networks *here* closer to their maximum sizes, if not at their maximum sizes outright *there*?Juan Martin Velez Linares 19:43, 08 September 2015 (CDT)

Given that there was not the automobile competition *there*, attitudes following closer ties to Europe, as I understand it, I would expect there to be a much more robust intra-city and inter-city rail system, the world over. BoArthur 09:50, 9 September 2015 (PDT)
Hmm. Why wasn't there as much automobile competition? (Less air competition is obvious, since airships don't exactly seem to be very fast transportation). I'm not challenging your decision (I kind of would like IB to have more rail transport myself), I simply want to be absolutely sure that large rail networks (especially intra-city, inter-city is practically a given IMO) were the norm *there* before I go to the Railways page and, to quote Beck, "get crazy with the Cheez Whiz". Juan Martin Velez Linares 13:51, 09 September 2015 (CDT)
Culturally IB is very much more laid-back. Without Manifest Destiny, the NAL-SLC never became the industrial juggernaut/world policeforce that the USA has become. I tend to think IB's very culturally stodgy in some ways, holding much more closely to yesteryear, without the RUSH that seems endemic, *here*. (Have you ever looked at East Asia's suicide rate?) BoArthur 15:39, 14 September 2015 (PDT)
Hmm. I suppose with a lack of broad American cultural influence, there wouldn't be such a push to automobilise everywhere. 'Course, there are other countries with a more or less prominent car culture (Japan, France, England, Germany etc.), but they kept very good intercity rail networks and really weren't dominant cultural forces in the globe at large in the same way the US was (and Germany didn't really go around ripping up tram networks, they preferred upgrading theirs). Can't speak for sure for urban rail in Japan, France, the UK and so on, but intercity rail is almost certainly in a fairly good state in most countries in IB. The FK seems far more inclined toward trams than the UK was, though, so FK probably has good urban rail as well. Juan Martin Velez Linares 22:16, 14 September 2015 (CDT)
Also, I take it this is an authorisation to "get crazy with the Cheez Whiz"? If so, consider the Cheez Whiz ready for insanity. Juan Martin Velez Linares 23:20, 14 September 2015 (CDT)
I would also argue that the car culture, while strong in those countries, was probably dampened compared to here, because there was no GM or Ford that pushed for everyone to have a car. And while you may get crazy with the Cheez Whiz, be forewarned that I may have to use crackers now and again to reign it (slightly) in. ;) BoArthur 08:22, 15 September 2015 (PDT)

The infamous *here"s* Balkan Wars songs

Disclaimer: This topic is sensitive. I do not have any political motive for these low-budget songs.

I wonder with these *here's* Balkan War songs that were memetic on the Internet, if they exist in Ill Bethisad, would they exist as well *there?* Looks that they would not be as popular due to the lower levels on Internetwork (if it exists) *there*. Maybe popular due to TV spoofs though.

General tiu 10:53, 10 September 2015 (PDT)

Mmm. IIRC it's an early meme, and I headcanon the Internetwork as being around a 2002/2003 level as of right now, so IDK if it would have dissipated without Youtube. Sincerely doubt it happened at all TBH, the Internet was too primitive in 2003 *there* for it to even become a meme in the first place. Perhaps on the bycopel? Juan Martin Velez Linares 14:06, 10 September 2015 (CDT)

Exchange rates of IB and *here*.

Does someone know what are the exchange rates of IB currency to *here*? --General tiu 11:42, 12 September 2015 (PDT)

(MSG 33072Re: [conculture] IB: Currency value) -- Someone else once asked: "Is there any way to find out the value of "there" currency in the different nations compared to "here" currency today?" I responded: "We have specifically refrained from making such a conversion between *here* and *there* because the bases for the two systems of currency are so different. But for a *very rough* idea, figure somewhere between 10 and 20 UK pounds (during reasonably good economic times) equal one FK pound. Simply convert FK pounds to the currency of your choice *there* and UK pounds to the currency of your choice *here*." Currently, sterling is sitting where it's been much of the last age, at about $US1.50, just to help with the maths. Elemtilas 18:14, 12 September 2015 (PDT)
Why, that's about 15 to 30 US dollars! IB is rich! Juan Martin Velez Linares 10:59, 14 September 2015 (CDT)
Check your maths, lad. :) BoArthur 15:40, 14 September 2015 (PDT)
No, that seems about right for 1 FK pound, if you multiply 10 and 20 by 1.5. On a related note, I assume IB never had the Great Recession that seems to be happening lately?Juan Martin Velez Linares 20:39, 14 September 2015 (CDT)

Video games

Have video games (even something as simple as Pong) been developed yet in IB? If so, how far along are they? Juan Martin Velez Linares 11:02, 14 September 2015 (CDT)

I have to wonder what call they have for those sort of things. Without the massive consumer computer industry, There wouldn't be a need for such things. I think that *there* computers are largely university/businesses, and not many folks have one at their desk at home. Mind, I could be only speaking for the backwards folk of Louisianne... BoArthur 15:42, 14 September 2015 (PDT)
Hm. I seem to think that computers have surpassed the level of university/business stuff, if only recently? Of course, assuming Louisianne's at about an Italy level like what you said, perhaps that is the status of computers in that area. I imagine there's probably a big PC market in Europe, what with Ireland being right there and all, and what with Western/Northern Europe's liberal gallivanting they're probably quite receptive to the latest in computer technologies! Something like Japan *here*. I'd imagine Central Europe and possibly Italy as well are probably more conservative and therefore less enthusiastic to all these newfangled "personally computingers", although the HRE seems quite technologically advanced, what with all that Teutonic efficiency and such. Can't speak for sure for Montrei and the NAL, though. Juan Martin Velez Linares 21:10, 14 September 2015 (CDT)
The France I knew in the late 1990s just didn't seem to go for computer games so much as soccer, and other interactive real-life pursuits. While there may be some market for it, it's not going to be as ubiquitous as *here*, not at this point in time. BoArthur 08:24, 15 September 2015 (PDT)
Ah, yes, true. Those silly frogs and their "Tellymins", always holding on to antiquated technologies! So maybe more the FK and Scandinavia, then? Perhaps even the HRE (although its semi-medieval setup makes me wonder how receptive they are to modern things).Juan Martin Velez Linares 10:55, 15 September 2015 (CDT)

IB: The Second Generation

Hi all!

Ill Bethisad is quickly approaching its 20th anniversary. Quite amazing that a project that is almost as old as the Internet itself, is still active nowadays! Now that we face a rather unexpected outburst of activity, after IB had seemed to go practically dormant for a while, let me share two thoughts:

  1. The category Proposal contains a lot of proposals that were submitted years ago, some of them even go back to 2005 or 2006. The idea of the Cycle of Proposals was that to make sure that no one would unwillingly violate QSS and therefore any new idea that could in some way affect the work of others, should be presented as a proposal first. The {{proposal}} tag would place this proposal in a special category, so that others could revise it – of course within a reasonable timeframe, say a month or so. Obviously, if there are too many proposals at once, nobody will pay attention to them. I therefore move that we quickly revise the current proposals and deprop them, so that new proposals will receive the attention they deserve.
  2. Most of those who once constituted the backbone of the project are now inactive or have retired. Now that IB suddenly started to attract new members, we might have to reevaluate a few things with regard to caretakership. Let's face it: there aren't many new territories left to be claimed, and traditionally, once a person had fleshed out the details about a country, region, nation, person, organisation or whatever, he automatically became its owner ("caretaker"). We've always carefully protected people's property within IB. But in the meantime, we face a situation in which most of the world is still formally owned by people who have been inactive for about a decade now. While QSS should of course always be respected, I think we can no longer treat former members as the exclusive caretakers of their territories, or even as those who can take the ultimate decision about it. Of course, I very much hope for their return, but it is not a healthy situation if major players on the international scene (Russia, Scandinavian Realm, HRE, France, the Spains, China, etc.) are stuck because their caretakers have retired from the project. In other words, whoever wants to continue developing such countries, or to "play" them, should IMO be free to do so. Basically, this is pretty much what is already written here, by the way.

Opinions? Cheers, IJzeren Jan 11:07, 18 September 2015 (PDT)

I agree with your points - but I think that we should also say, as I was encouraged in my early membership in the group, that when you're starting out, it's best to pick ONE area of focus, and work on that, get the feel of things, before branching further. I fing it's generally best to do that, anyway. In the case of the HRE, I think AlFishes/Ben is de facto proprietor, just as I've inherited France and all things French, to some degree. But as long as those newcomers work with those that are around to flesh things out, I think we'll be Off to a Very Good Start.
I think of IB like a home that's been built. The foundations are poured, the walls are framed and sheetrock's covering the electrical and plumbing. The walls need to be painted, wallpapered, carpets laid, tile, wood flooring, what not, paintings hung, books shelved, and so on. Sure there are minor renovations, for ex. Greece, that needs to be flushed out, but Mr. Xeight has "contracted" to do that work in the otherwise established home. There's much room to grow and fill. There are so many things unexplored. Broad strokes have fleshed out the form, but it's nowhere near done, if you're willing to find the beauty in the details. That's my view. BoArthur 11:27, 18 September 2015 (PDT)
Couldn't agree more about your first remark. Yes, it is absolutly better to focus on one thing instead of instantly trying to cover half the World.
As for countries, sure, there are gradations. Everybody is of course the exclusive owner of whatever conlang he has created, and everybody has his "core" territory. To use myself as an example, my core territory in IB is the RTC. The language and the whole concept of the country are entirely my creation, and even though I haven't done any work on it during the last few years, it's not really something that anybody else could take over easily. But take Russia: I have set out the basics and done quite some work on it, yet it's not a country that couldn't be worked out further by some else. Besides, I've always had the feeling that owning two such major countries is actually a bit too much. And the same goes even more for countries that I more or less "own by default", like Ukraine. What I am trying to say is this: the fact that I have a website about IB Russia and IB Ukraine shouldn't stop anybody from expanding these countries further.
I think we all agree that one of the best moments in IB's history was the Florida War, because instead of everybody working out the details about his own country, it suddenly became something like an interactive game. The fact that the caretakers of important countries are inactive shouldn't stop this sort of things from happening. Cheers, IJzeren Jan 11:48, 18 September 2015 (PDT)
I agree with both of you. I personally have come to see myself as something of an interior decorator, merely giving pretty details to a quite sturdy and useful structure. It's gilding on a building, putting icing on a cake, if you will. Of course, I seem to have essentially been given permission to make IB's take on Catalan language, and I would like to give some substance to the countries in India which haven't been very fleshed out as well as work out Macau, but at this point in time most everything is taken and I don't really see where I could break much new ground. I suppose I joined the project mostly as just that, an interior decorator, and instead of any real regional core area I've seemingly gotten music as my IB core.
You know, I was thinking that IB is starting to near the completion of all the countries and to a lesser extent the cultures being fleshed out. I was wondering if perhaps there could be a Phase II of the project, where we essentially start writing stories in the shared universe? Perhaps even turn it into a franchise. So I've heard, occasionally the idea of a movie's been bandied about. While my own writing style is suited more to the idiot box er, television, I'd be more than happy to write scripts for short films/episodes set in the IB universe. Juan Martin Velez Linares 20:28, 18 September 2015 (CDT)

I will second (or I guess by now fourth or fifth) what dear Jan said above. This project has been a little too wonderful to let lie fallow or wither away just because those of us (myself included, and perhaps the worst of all) are no longer active and interested. The recent rebirth is a wonder, of course, but isn't the first time we've witnessed just this cycle of activity followed by lying fallow for some time followed by new activity and new creativity. I am certain this last spell has been the longest of inactivity; but it does seem to be the case that new sprigs of growth are greening!

As usual, Jan hits the nails right on the head, and brings up what I think is already or soon will be a matter of concern, the passing on of an old & established territory. (A thing I've been pondering some years now, and hits home especially in light of Roger's passing over.) I would propose the following, and I most certainly include myself in this: going forward, we should continue to respect QSS, because those ideas that have already been written, some wonky, some sensible, are now the history of IB's past; but just as people enter history *here*, play their part and then move on, so it is with the caretakers of *there*. I honestly can't expect the areas I've had an interest in over the past 20 years or so to be my personal property forever. Especially when I have no longer any real interest in continuing much work on it. I don't think it's fair either to newer members who may be interested in continuing, nor is it fair to the project itself, to the world created by this project, to hold back or stymie work on some area simply out of (understandable!) respect for someone who worked on that part of the project ten, fifteen years ago and hasn't been heard from since.

Therefore, for my part, I will happily relinquish any of my 'holdings' or areas of interest to anyone willing to take them on. I suspect no one will want to take up the sable banner of the Kerno language, if only because it's too bloody hard to learn; but the country attached to it (Dunein) is quite pleasant and could probably stand some new and improved history! Even Kemr itself could use some fresh metaphorical paint and a new kitchen. Ter Mair; transportation systems; stamps and coins; etc. etc. In formally letting go those other areas of interest, I would of course remain available for discussion or consultation to anyone in future who might be interested in them.

Also, it might also be a good time to lay aside the notion of 'ownership of a whole country' -- they're pretty big entities, after all! It worked well for us early on, because basically everything was an empty slate. If newer members see themselves more as new inhabitants of an old house they're willing to slightly remodel and redo the wallpaper and unbung the plumbing, well, perhaps they might find it useful to also redefine IB membership itself! It seems already that we've got someone interested in music. Perhaps that member might also explore other arts or other aspects of life that touch on musical and cultural domains but in a more trans/international way. So rather than one person deciding what country XYZ will be like; half a dozen people might have input from ten or twelve domains of thought. We might also encourage one or more members to actively mine data from the Archives at Conculture and Conlang. Who knows what gems might lie hidden there! If something interesting comes to light, give it a Wiki article and if possible, link it with other related articles. Then, perhaps, link that old bit of information with an updated understanding of its place in IB history. I think that would be a fine way to both preserve QSS and also allow for a considerable breadth of creative activity within the project. And far from there being fewer places for new members to break new ground on, I'd say that the world of IB is really about as open as ever. If the late 1990s and early 2000s are well fleshed out, that almost certainly means 85 to 90 percent of all previous decades throughout human history are not so well fleshed out! Broad trends and great sweeps of history are known, but local history and the stories of those who took part in those broad sweeps are completely dark to us. Perhaps there is a lot of room for illumination? (Comment & discussion on this would be most welcome!)

I will however reserve for myself the character and history of the next Pope of Rome. I've been thinking on and off about him for a good decade. Some time I shall have to make a definitive statement about him.

And yes, the Great Florida War -- which as I recall, rather sadly, only lasted about a fortnight! -- was great fun indeed. I would rather hope that some of our newer members will try and engage in that kind of role playing as well. We were able to develop a large body of history and insight during that short time. And, perhaps most importantly, it was just plain fun. I know I had a blast!

Lastly, on the idea of writing from within IB -- I've always been an advocate of using IB as a foundation upon which to write fiction. Whether it's futuristic SF that has its roots in ancient IB history; or fantasy written from the perspective of a person living in IB; or television or plays or stories -- all of those I think ought to be encouraged. Perhaps some newer members can visit Seat Twenty-Seven and finally figure what that story was all about?? I would certainly love to see some talented writer study our strange little world and write stories about it! I know some work has already been done along those lines, but I'd like to see more.

Elemtilas 19:54, 18 September 2015 (PDT)
Thank you, Padraic and Juan. Lots of interesting ideas to ponder. I agree, "ownership of a whole country" is a concept not fitting IB any longer. It might still work for countries that are small, isolated and strongly attached to an (in some cases pre-existing) conculture; I'm thinking here of countries like Xliponia, Henua and the Monastic Republic. And obviously, any old member would be more than welcome to make his grand return! But in the meantime, this should not stop others from working out details pertaining to any previously claimed and owned country. Same goes, perhaps even more so, for their recent history, because indeed, most data we have refer to the situation around 2005, and we can't reasonably expect every prime minister to be still in office. QSS is, and has always been, the very foundation of this project, and I think it should continue to be. But as far as I am concerned, we should let go of the concept that only one person is entitled to answer questions or make decisions about a country. In other words, all we own is the stuff we have actually written ourselves. For the rest, any member (new or old) should feel free to fill in blanks. And yes, I'm pretty sure lots of things must have happened in Florida in the meantime, too! IJzeren Jan 02:34, 19 September 2015 (PDT)
Speaking of the new pope, should we collectively decide if and how to kill off Pope John XXIIJ? Not denying that Padraic should have the pope, of course... It certainly will be interesting to see how IB deals with the first Afroe pope! Perhaps he does something like Pope Francis is doing *here*? Juan Martin Velez Linares 20:39, 19 September 2015

St. Hildegard

Icon of saint hildegard.jpg

I know it's a day late now, but I just wanted to wish everyone a happy feast day of St. Hildegard of Bingen!

Ќ-ɱ lĭw-i kyn ŋĭn-i θě'ku hǒ, ť θĭ-ř pe ť ĥwâ-o gjâ cĭln-bô krĭ-o hĭlděgard-ram-ķa pî'hâ-bô.

ƥ ryň-ř lâ syj-i, Ќ-ɱ ĥy-i θĭ-ť-zô mwe hǒŋ ť ĥwâ-o gjâ-krĭ žuln-fwa krĭ-o pe te syj-i gju-zô Ќ-ɱ tu-i.

ce rjâ-i lâ-zô Ќ-ɱ lĭw-i pâŋ šej jî'ŝu ĥrî'cu i, ť lĭw-i fru ŋĭn-i, mâ lǒ tu-i ť pe šî'fy-pî'hâ ĥun-i zuň-van pe tyrn-zô, θě'ku cĭ-bô jâ-i, mu hǒl il pe ir.

God our father, with your help and for your glory St. Hildegard created an unknown language. By her intercession, help us to create and speak well-made conlangs for your glory. We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God forever and ever.

Prayer by Jim Henry

A Good Name for A Qvelbe Band

I have ideas for about 3 modern qvelbe bands, but I have absolutely no bloody idea what to name them. Anyone have any ideas? Juan Martin Velez Linares 9:46, 19 September 2015 (CDT)

Military Ranks in Brithenig

Is there a table of military ranks in Brithenig? --General tiu 12:45, 24 September 2015 (PDT)

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