Lla Dafern/Archive 14

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Bengwenid! Bieńwięty! Moyn moyn! Bemmeinde! Pemmenut! Benvenuto! Welcome!

This is Lla Dafern, or, as the Saxon invaders call it, The Pub. It is one of many places where the members of Ill Bethisad enjoy meeting each other informally. It is the place where opinions can be exchanged and questions can be asked concerning Ill Bethisad in general or about topics that do not fit in the Talk compartment of individual wiki pages. It is also the place where technical questions can be asked to the moderators of this wiki.

THE MENU: Our chef, whose nationality for reasons of security will remain undisclosed, offers you a broad assortiment of Helvetian and other specialties, such as Montreiano Sea Elephant steaks with rended blubber, or if you prefer a side of Pacific white sided dolphin babyback ribs. He will be more than happy to give you a demonstration of his culinary talents. Just keep your health insurance card ready! And if you aren't particularly hungry today, he will also happily treat you on a rosy-scented Jervan Muscatel, a cool Dumnonian cider, a warm Irish or a cold Batavian beer, or, if you are amongst the more daring, a true Venedic jekwiała. For those who appreciate fine wines we carry the rich red wines of Bordeaux and les Ozarques, Brandy or Montignac, and bin ruper from Hostreht in Xliponia. For the discerning, a good 1984 vintage Arvorec anaf aval is recommended as an apéritif. Especially for minors and teetotallers we also serve Coke, orange juice, goat milk, Italian Limonata, and Neofrancian Spruce beer. If you prefer a more active pursuit to accompany your imbibition, there's a rousing game of puir-man whummlin going on out back. There's even an occasional pickup match of hibercrosse. Cheerio!

WARNING: Please don't pay attention to the smoke, the noise and the mess. Watch your steps and don't break your neck over cables, books, broken chairs, empty beer cans, leftovers of cigarettes and snacks...our bus boys get to it when they can...

DISCLAIMERS: The management is not responsible for physical or mental damage inflicted upon our guests, especially when it is caused by the food, by the BioCola, by the regular rioting here, or by any other kind of misbehaviour on anyone's part.
Any similarity to what the Wikipedians call The Village Pump is not entirely coincidental.

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The current Ill Bethisad Collaboration of the Fortnight is: Franco-Prussian War.   Every fortnight a different topic, stub or non-existent article is picked by nomination.
Please read the nomination text and improve the article any way you can. 


2005: February – July | August – September | October | November | December
2006: January | February | March | April | May | June | July – September | October – December
2007: January – June | July – December
2008: January – June | July – December


BGManofID, new member

I would like to introduce myself. I am interested in languages and conlanging, and I have several ideas that I have been tossing around in my head. Perhaps the most well-developed are a Latin language based on Latin and Italian that sounds like Quenya and a German dialect (or language) that sounds like Sindarin.

Lastly, I have come up with an idea for a Slavic language that has an Italian flavor, much as how Wenedyk is a Romance language with a Polish flavor. I don't know where it could be set... I was thinking at first Slovenia but then I noticed that in the history of Croatia it mentions a few Slovenes who have names which are simply Slovenian and would not fit this language. Another idea would be Friuli, since that would be in the border of Italy and nothing has been written about it.

"Enzico suovianesco (or whatever) è uno del gruppo ogli enzici vuosciosuovianesci..." ...so I have some basic ideas, such as ь > e, ъ > o

Unfortunately I'm quite new to this but I do think it would be a good collaborative effort.

Please make sure you come and itnroduce yourself at our Yahoo Group!BoArthur 11:53, 25 January 2007 (PST)

I'm back! I have thought up a new easier project. Rather than making an Italian-looking Slavic language, I have decided to pick on English. Now all I need is a website...

Agli begni umani er borni frigi an uguali in dignità an diritti. Dei er endovati vi ragione an coscienza en scioldano atta tovardo eciodri in eno spirito o brederodo. BGManofID 08:51, 3 April 2007 (PDT)

Languages / Nationalities

There has been some discussion about whether a native of Riu de l'Argent should be called Argentinian. This set me to thinking -

Of course we all know that Kemrese, Xliponian, English can be used for the language as well as the nationality. Wenedyk (or Venedic) vs. Venedan seems to be something altogether different. I am reminded of *here*'s Arab (people) vs. Arabic (language, script) vs. Arabian (pertaining to Arabia). Which countries / nations in IB have different names for their peoples and their languages? Should a list be drawn up? My 60 sulti's worth... Kyrmse 06:22, 23 January 2007 (PST)

Sounds interesting. I can say that Louisiannans speak Francien (per force), and that Neofranciens often speak Laurencian (n'est-ce pas, M. Pasquin?). The Namvietese speak Vietieng (anglicization of their language name). BoArthur 07:28, 23 January 2007 (PST)
I believe the term for a person from Nam Viet is "Viet" Nik 13:35, 21 February 2007 (PST)
Indeed; I was referring to the people as a whole (that crazy partitive noun stuff again.) BoArthur 16:35, 21 February 2007 (PST)
Are those languages called Francian and Laurentian in English? I know our Main Page has a link to its own Francien version, but I'd plop for Francian. This discussion has far-ranging potential, not so? Watch this space! Kyrmse 07:55, 23 January 2007 (PST)
I have been using the "-ian" ending for both francian and laurentian since "-ien" seem to be rare in english and since the use of one in a language often result in the other in the second one (*).
Regarding language vs nationality, I think you have to go at it on a case by case basis. Aspirant (non-sovereign) people would probably use the same term for both but a sovereign country might not if it might cause confusion. The reason why we start using the term "francian" for IB's french was that in addition to half the country *there* speaking an oil language (closer to say, catalan), many other languages have enough native speakers to render the term "french" meaningless from a linguistic point of view. In some cases of the country's name having a "territorial" (england = land of the angle), you could decide to make the distinction Englander (person) vs English (language).
(*) before someone jump in, yet again, to tell me english didn't copy the -ian ending on the french one, thats not what I mean. I'm simply pointing out the parallel use (italien/italian, canadien/canadian, etc...) as a reason why I chose to spell it that way as opposed to the french version. --Marc Pasquin 15:53, 23 January 2007 (PST)
You'll have no arguments from me, Marc. BoArthur 19:18, 23 January 2007 (PST)
For Ron: They're called "French" and "Laurentian" in English. "Francien" is a technical term for the dialect of metropolitan Paris, which is obviously the official language of northern France and Louisianna. And if certain French politicians are to be believed, the official language of the whole country of France! I've been the one to use "Francien" the most, and use it to distinguish that dialect from the other French dialects (Normand, Picard, Limousin, etc). It should not be taken as the usual English term, even for the Parisian dialect, which most English speakers would just call "French" anyway. With all due respect, "Francian" is not good English either *here* or *there*.
The idea of a list of languages and countries is interesting, but I don't really see how useful it would be. The English terms are really no different in either pantleg of history. Any countries that don't exist *here* would need names, but they'd follow the same sorts of conventions as real-world countries or languages do. So you'ld have pairs like French/Louisiannan; English (or Salish depending)/Oregonian; Castilian/Alta Californian; German/German; Xliponian/Xliponian; etc. Elemtilas 19:47, 23 January 2007 (PST)

Some suggestions for missing flags

There are several flags missing *there*, or at least that could exist. Below some few suggestions for missing flags. You are all free to use them, or not, or to make changes on them.

For the Somer Islands, Rhodesia and Cambrian Polynesia I used the usual patterns seen at the FOIB web page, i.e. colonial English or kemrese flag pattern with *here’s* coat of arms.

Related to Cambrian Polynesia and to Rhodesia these two flags could be not only pre-independence ones so as post independence, as both territories came to independence (in 2006 and 1957, respectively) by peaceful means and kept good relations with the old coloniser.

Portugal in IB was a republic between 1910 and 1953. Surely its flag had changed during that period as the kingdom’s has a monarchist symbol (the crown) at the coat of arms.

I think India deserves to have its own branch of the Neutral Aid Society. Such could be called Green Swastika and could be the counterpart of the Green Crescent, surely more present at the muslim areas of India. --Pedromoderno 20:57, 3 February 2007 (PST)

example of design
Good looking proposals. I'd just have some comments regarthe last 2 flags: Neutral aid flags should have a red symbol like the basic flag you can see on the neutral aid page (green was a short lived idea until Jan pointed out it wouldn't stand out on a battlefield as much as red). The other comment is regarding the CMAEC flag, although de facto it is indeed russia lording it over the other one, I think they would still keep the pretence of a "union of equals". The flag (and realted symbols) shold probably be a bit more subtil, for example: a black field with a all yellow logo and white writing or maybe just stylised yellow and white initials on black like this (just an example). --Marc Pasquin 16:30, 4 February 2007 (PST)
Good points, Marc. I had chosen the green colour for the Green Swastika just because I found it on the Neutral Aid Society's page on FOIB. But it is true that red colour is much visible than green, so I will change it and definately the NAS in India should be then Red Swastika.--Pedromoderno 17:27, 4 February 2007 (PST)

And as result of playing with Paintbrush two more suggestions for flags:

The first is my suggestion for Cyprus under english dominion. The two lions could represent the Greek community (the blue one) and the Turkish community (the freen one).

The second suggestion could be the flag of Cyprus under greek occupation, during the 1970's.--Pedromoderno 16:45, 5 February 2007 (PST)

I like your designs very much! Zahir 10:26, 12 August 2007 (PDT)

Happy Second Aniversary everyone

And for many more to come. --Sikulu 00:24, 8 February 2007 (PST)

Ti-naçal veliq ad IBWiki! - this is how we say Happy Birthday [or Anniversary] to the IBWiki! in old Xliponia... Kyrmse 06:18, 8 February 2007 (PST)

Heh heh. Happy Anniversary indeed. Zahir 16:01, 8 February 2007 (PST)

One Language Is Never Enough

I would like to call the attention of all to this page: http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/onelanguage.htm, which - though it contains some errors in the Esperanto text - is very curious, speaks of a feeling we all have, and can be added to (maybe with conlangs?), for which Simon would be grateful. Kyrmse 05:32, 12 February 2007 (PST)

Other fonts

Is it possible to somehow upload and use other fonts on this wiki? I am now thinking about the Smetonian alphabet used to write Reformed Lithuanian and it seems some Unicode characters appear as white squares here; some of the needed characters are available in the Arial Unicode MS font though. Ability to upload my own font would be even better although it would require people to download it to display all the characters correctly (which wouldn't be a problem with Arial Unicode MS) - maybe I would find similar-looking characters for substitution of certain letters. Abdul-aziz 09:58, 20 February 2007 (PST)


I have been working on the Zouaves background a bit more and have been trying to figure its composition. The regiments (based on country/nationality) would include the following countries of origin: Francy, Walloonia, Brettony, Batavia, Jervaine, Bavaria, New Francy, Ireland, Austria, Castille, Veneda.

The first five are based on the number and provenance of troops that served *here*, the last four were included for the following reasons:

Ireland & Austria: *here* during the Garibaldian era, there were a "Legion of Saint-Patrick" and a corps of austrian Bersaglieri serving the papal state. They were not part of the zouaves but I have assumed that they might have eventualy been amalgamated for the sake of organisational needs (easier to maintain a single infrastructure for international volunteers). The name of the austrian regiment comes from a fraternal catholic association in Austria *here*.

Castille: The uniform worn by some carlists in the late 19th century *here* was inspired by the zouave (although the french ones) and their militant catholic philosophy would make them exceptionaly appropriate for inclusion.

Veneda: during the "January Uprising" *here* in Poland (1863), a regiment of "Death Zouave" was founded by a french officer. While in no way was it connected to the Papal ones, *there* it might have be founded by some returning venedic Zouaves (founded 3 years earlier) to defend their countrymen against the depradation of "Godless Lituanian and russian Orthodox". Of course thats assuming the uprising happened *there*.

Regiments might also exist in other countries although it would take more then simply having a large catholic population. Idealy, it would have to be from places that have an history of militancy and de jure or de facto recognition of the catholic faith as state religion (even if only within a given subnational entities or due to the vast majority belonging to it).

--Marc Pasquin 16:49, 20 February 2007 (PST)


The upgrade to 1.9.2 should be complete and everything should be back to normal. If anything is found to be missing or unfixably broken, do let me know. I have also added the extension ParserFunctions, which may or may not be useful to you. —Muke Tever | 20:13, 25 February 2007 (PST)


Sorry I haven't been on recently guys... Oh well... But my goodness! Hardly ANY updates? We as a whole are slacking! Seth March 17, 2007

More like we as a whole have been absorbed into real-life issues. :) BoArthur 13:00, 17 March 2007 (PDT)

True... I had a lot on my plate for a while... I'll never take three AP classes at the same time ever again! Seth 4:21, 18 March 2007

Meh, you will...but the won't be called AP classes. They'll be called College. :) BoArthur 08:56, 18 March 2007 (PDT)

March is a pretty busy month for me anyway with all of the birthdays that come up. But I've also not been too inspired to create pages for my areas of domain. - Doobieous
Speaking for myself, life has been a fairly complex mess of late. But onward and upward...!Zahir 19:42, 19 March 2007 (PDT)

Junior Forresters

I was reading about scouting and thought it might be interesting to have an IB specific organisation as its counterpart. While researching the matter, I have found a few groups that predate scouting or existed around the same time but they were on the whole either too close to being "army cadets" type group or too similar to scouting to be worth it.

It occured to me that something interesting would be an organisation that, while similar, wouldn't be or military origin at all. And what better place for a nature-minded group to have arisen then Oregon.

The proposal can be seen here Junior Forresters comments, additions and corrections are more then welcome.

Note: even if adopted, the existence of the Junior Forresters as the proeminent organisation of its type should in no way prevent anyone from comming up with their own. I have for that reason include a "Similar Organisations" section in the proposal.

Toki Pona

Have any of you looked seriously into Toki Pona? Agreed, it is a minimalist language, and there are many matters - from airship engineering to chronoglottology - that can hardly, if at all, be discussed in it, but it is an excellent medium for smalltalk, in my humble opinion. I would like to hear the opinions of fellow conlangers and conculturists on Toki Pona. Could there be a niche for it in Ill Bethisad?

I've heard about it, but haven't looked at it in depth. I don't think TP would be a particularly good auxlang (too philosophical / spiritual and too, well, too pona! As a meditatory or spiritual language, or certainly as an experimental conlang, I guess anything could have a place. As a language used for most day-to-day interaction, I don't know. Tawa kon sona (wisdom of air transportation) is the obvious TP for airship engineering. ;))
I'm curious, though: what sort of place are you thinking of for TP in IB?
Just musing... nothing definite... Kyrmse 13:20, 21 March 2007 (PDT)

Today is Johann Sebastian Bach's birthday! o pona! Kyrmse 04:54, 21 March 2007 (PDT)

Cool. Probably very few people know this (though you're a Bachamaniac, so you might), but he based his Musette in D (the one in A.M.'s Notebook) on an old Kemrese pipe tune. I happen to have found, buried in the deeps of a drawer of old music in the U. of Castreleon, an old copy of just that pipe tune.
Elemtilas 13:02, 21 March 2007 (PDT)
Who'd have thunk it! Kyrmse 13:20, 21 March 2007 (PDT)

About Space Voyage

Now that Space Voyage has been developed quite a bit, its various contibutors might like to have a think about its social aspect in IB. For example, there could have been/will be a convention of the trekkies couterpart ("spacies" ?). There could also have been a projected space-based defence system nicknamed "Space Voyage 1990" and finaly, one of the satellite sent out could have been christen "Vanguard".

I realy think it would help cement Space Voyage's presence in IB if a few things like that could be found.

They'd be called Voyagers. :) And I like the ideas you suggest. BoArthur 14:16, 23 March 2007 (PDT)


If like I suggested before Ib's equivalent to the Internet had evolved out of a type of Minitel, it occured to me that videophone might be widespread *there* since the graphic aspect of telephony would have improved over the years. --Marc Pasquin 12:59, 9 April 2007 (PDT)

This would require some good data transmission rates that might not be possible *there*. I know that the Ojo videophone requires 150 kbps, and most other phones require more, but then, it's something to consider. BoArthur 18:26, 9 April 2007 (PDT)

Recent Changes: Odd Phenom

Why is it that, of late only, we're seeing several lines of the recently edited article appearing in the comment section? Example:

(diff) (hist) . . N Ormesby House‎; 19:58 . . (+790) . . Quentin (Talk | contribs | block) (New page: Ormesby House is one of England's most famous theme parks. It was formerly a stately home and so on, but it was turned into a theme park after the last of the family who owned it died. It...)

All of this: "Ormesby House is one of England's most famous theme parks. It was formerly a stately home and so on, but it was turned into a theme park after the last of the family who owned it died. It..." is simply lifted from the article itself. I'm sure the person editing the page didn't do it, as there's no need to -- all we have to do is open the article to see what he wrote in its entirety.

Can this feature be disabled? The comments line should be for any comments the editor wants to make, not the first lines of the article in question at computer whim. It wastes space on the Recent Changes page, as we now have to wade through lines of irrelevant text. Elemtilas 07:31, 21 April 2007 (PDT)

It's because people create articles without including edit summaries. If there's no edit summary, the wiki software just quotes the first few lines of the article. The solution is simply to use edit summaries when creating articles; even if it's just created. Deiniol 08:03, 22 April 2007 (PDT)
But it's not just happening for newly created articles, and it's not happening for everybody, and it's also a very recent phenomenon. There's not always a reason to write a comment. If I change a period to a comma, I don't see any great need to make a comment to that effect -- that's why we have the "minor change" tick box. If this is just a fact of life for the newly updated software, then I guess there's no choice but to write a " " in the comments box!! Elemtilas 11:26, 22 April 2007 (PDT)

Essential Travel Phrases - To Be Emulated

This is just to call your attention to this, which we might copy (if so disposed...) Kyrmse 13:17, 25 April 2007 (PDT)

They forgot the most important traveller's phrase of all: where's the loo? Their phrases are tongue in cheek to say the least. If we're looking at travel essentials, I'd pick "Please / Thank You"; "Where can I get food & drink"; "Where can I sleep"; and "Where is the loo". Elemtilas 19:08, 25 April 2007 (PDT)
Of course I wasn't all that serious! I do agree that other phrases are indeed more important - there must be a list of them somewhere around - and was proposing said link only on a Himalayan whim (???!!!) ;-) Kyrmse 06:00, 26 April 2007 (PDT)
There was a discussion about that sort of things regarding Arvorec If I remember right. One sentence was "I'm not interested in your sister but how much for your brother." Sailor stuf you ken...--Marc Pasquin 12:35, 26 April 2007 (PDT)


The first season of VoJo's hit series Paladins is nearing its eagerly-awaited conclusion. The suspense-laden weave of stories revolves around a handful of people from all walks of life, sharing only the fact that their genes bestow them with abilities above and beyond what others would consider humanly possible. Now it is up to them to keep the most terrifying premonition imaginable from happening: The nuclear annihilation of Reondradun, and thus civilization as we know it. Don't miss it!  ;)

More details coming soon. The Jervan 06:28, 15 May 2007 (PDT)

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