Florida
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Florida was a state of the now-defunct nation of Florida-Caribbea. At the end of the FC's existence, Florida was a single state, divided into 15 distritos.
Florida was first made known to Europeans in 1513, when the Castillian conquistador Juan Ponce de León discovered it on Easter Sunday, Pascua Florida in Spanish. This Florida was the source of the name. In 1559, Pensacola, in West Florida, was founded, but was destroyed by a hurricane a few years later and abandoned for a period. In 1565, the city of San Augustín, on the eastern coast, was founded, and remained continuously inhabited. San Augustín is generally considered the oldest permanent European settlement in North America, but West-Floridians, especially Pensacolians, often insist that Pensacola is oldest. The Castillians came into conflict with both the French and the English over the borders of Florida, which originally extended all the way west to the Mississippi, and as far north as modern-day Carolina.
In 1705, England acquired Florida down to the 29th parallel from Castile, as a result of England having captured Pensacola and San Augustín. England divided Florida into two halves, West Florida and East Florida. Castile founded a settlement in the Tampa Bay area in 1708, and named the southern penninsula la Florida del Sur (South Florida). When the NAL was founded in 1803, East and West Florida were founding members. This did not last long. Taking advantage of the new nation's weakness, and the also recently-formed Federated Kingdoms's concerns with France, the Castillians invaded, re-annexing East and West Florida. The NAL was unable to preserve East Florida, but part of West Florida held out, with the help of Cherokee Nation. The eastern part of what was left of West Florida was ceded to Cherokee Nation in gratitude for their assistance. In 1819, Castile sold the land west of the Perdido River to the NAL, giving them access to the Gulf of Mejico. The NAL province of West Florida renamed itself Mobile Province after the new capital of Mobile. Periodic border skirmishes occured with the NAL provinces of Jacobia and Cherokee Nation, but things remained largely calm.
After the 1898 War, the Floridas each separately declared independance from Castile. In 1900, the three joined to form La República Nacionalista y Revolucionista de las Floridas. Florida, as it was known, began "liberating" the Caribbean. In 1955, the three Floridas were merged into a single state, and the Floridian empire came to be called La Presidencia de la Tierra Florida y las Antiles (Or, more simply, Florida-Caribbea). North Florida had not forgotten its English past, and many of the English descendants resented the Hispanic governors of Miami. Particularly former West Florida remained quite close with their American neighbor, Cherokee Nation. Relations between FC and the NAL soured in the 70's, as FC "liberated" the Bahamas and Jamaica, and crossed the Perdido River, taking back the land sold in 1819. Finally, this antagonism boiled over into the 2004 Florida War, and northern Florida, consisting of the former West Florida and East Florida, plus the northern part of former South Florida, were occupied by the NAL, while eastern South Florida was occupied by the Republic of the Two Crowns, and the west by Ireland. Provisional governments were quickly set up in the NAL zone for the re-established West and East Florida (which now included all of NAL-occupied Florida east of the Appalachicola, including that area that was formerly South Florida). The northern Floridas, West Florida & East Florida were recently readmitted to the NAL. The European Zone is still in question, and progress has been dramatically delayed due to the Furocanos of this summer.
Administrative Divisions
At the end of its existence, the Estado de la Florida was divided into 15 distritos
- El Transperdido
- Pensacola
- Bahía de San Andrés
- Apalachicola
- Aucilla
- Suani
- Avilés
- San Agustín
- Alachua
- Bahía de Tampa
- Orlando
- Ais
- Bahía de Carlota
- Ocachobi
- Miami y los Cayos
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The following as of the eve of the great Caribbean War...
La Presidencia de la Tierra Florida y las Antiles (originally La República Nacionalista y Revolucionista de las Floridas), or simply Florida-Caribbea as it is commonly known, is composed of mainland Florida and all of the Caribbean islands. Two years and two revolutions after its constitution in the aftermath of the 1898 War, Florida's "Gran Armada Libertadora" began wars of conquest against its neighbours, and in short order had conquerred the majority of the region: Turks and Caicos (1900); Santo Domingo, Lesser Antilles (1903-5), Trinidad and Tobago (1911), Caymans (1912), Cruzans? (1946), Cuba (1953), Bahamas (1974), Jamaica (1979), Batavian Antilles, Okefenokee (2000), Mosquito Cays (2002, returned to England and the Mosquito Coast in 2003).
Not all of Flordia's actions in the region have been violent. Santo Domingo joined Florida willingly in 1904; conflicting documents allude to payolas between the President of Florida and the colonial governors of Martinique and Guadaloupe in 1915, resulting in the peaceful annexation of those territories. Florida took advantage of Cuba's 1953 Revolution, by supporting certain key events and members of the Cuban revolutionary movement, in order to take the Crown Jewel of the Caribbean. As of 2002, Florida-Caribbea was at war again with Hayti, in an attempt to reconquer and subdue the Creole-French speaking nation. It has long been Florida's position that Hayti is a renegade territory in a state of rebellion against the Federal Government.
The current president is Jaime Bush (1990), brother and frequent rival of the former Tejan dictator Jorge Walker Bush. Due to Florida's less than ideal treatment of some of its smaller territories, there are rumblings of new War between a League of Nations sanctioned Grand Coalition (NAL-SLC, the FK?, the SR, France, Castille-Leon and Dalmatia) and Florida-Caribbea. As of June 2003, Florida definitively supressed the "Haytian Rebellion"; and proffered its "Caribbean Plan" to the NAL, FK and SR, most likely in an attempt to prevent a war with those powers. The Plan calls for international recognition of Florida's aggrandised territory; and offers condominium status between several of its provinces and their former colonial governments as a conciliatory move designed to remove the principal reason the NAL and the SR desired to go to war in the first place. Tejas's position is unknown, though it is an important supplier of Helium to the NAL-SLC and its dirigible fleet is one to be reckoned with in any Caribbean action. Cuba and Hispañola (Santo Domingo) will also have to be reckoned with, as they are staunch and committed members of the Presidency, not to mention that Hispañola has a particular interest in reuniting the island under a single government. The "Constitución de la Nación" was reformed in 1955 to reflect the addition of Cuba and Hispañola as member states coequal with Florida. Rumors of a Constitutional Convention slated for 2004 or 2005 abound, with the end of cementing the Plan and its effects into national Law.
Not every aspect of Floridian life is centered around war and conquest. For a long time, Florida has been a major producer and exporter of citrus products. It is also a major resort destination, for North Americans as well as Europeans and Iberian Americans. The city of Orlando was declared by presidential fiat a "Resort Capital" of Florida. Noting the popularity of America's roadside wonders, the Warner Brothers (American producers of cartoons and second rate movies) expressed interest in creating a roadside wonder / theme park in the Sunbelt. Florida was already a hot spot for American tourists, so president Villanueva in 1965 ordered the clearance of land around Orlando in order to build the worlds grandest amusement park. It consists of a number of rides, concessions, music halls and seasonal entertainments. Children love to meet Bugs and all his pals at the gate.
Some comments and responses on Florida:
Question: Is Florida a "two bit banana republic dictatorship"? I was under the impression that it's pretty well-off.
Response: It was indeed well off, but that was spoilt by years of mismanagement and corruption the effects of which are still felt to the present day.
Even now, no one takes Florida seriously. I know the world (and the SR in particular) have no great love or respect for Bush, though he is vèry much the reformer. [The Bush character *there* would have made a good 19th century US president *here*.] He is hampered by a terribly complex and byzantine burocracy and a sort of monied aristocracy that make up the Cortes and of course a terribly corrupt Justice System.
Well, he probably won't last too long at it. There are not a few in the Cortes (quite a few with money connexions in the Cruzans) that were not in favour of the Plan, are not in favour of his democratic reforms and blame him for the loss of Tejas. Jaime may have been a bumbling penny-ha-penny dictator, but he WAS an extra ace in Florida's pocket.
They have a couple other aces up various sleeves, mind.
Comment: I think things would be very different if the SR did use the bomb on Florida, and we have established too much already. So we need to explain why the SR didn't use it.
Response: _At the time_, I simply doubt Florida was worth the effort. Keep in mind that the FK and the NAL neglected to persue Florida's advances in the Caribbean as well. Personally, I think their plan was simply to wait for a particularly corrupt dictator to come along and buy their territories out of hock. Clearly that strategy didn't work too well. Even if they had the bomb, the NAL would never use the thing; and I doubt any FK nation would nuke Florida over lost colonies.
Let's face it: Florida is NO Imperial Japan! Between thee and me, if the SR decided to simply trounce Florida, I bet they could take over everything but Florida and Cuba within a year. Of course, the FK and NAL will not want to be left out of liberating their own territories; such a war could probably be done within three months.
Some comments on the Cruzan situation, according to Scandinavian expert Kristian Jensen: Bush is also hampered by the extreme cultural differences between the Latin-based culture of Hispanic Floridia-Carribeans and the Scandinavian-based culture of the Cruzans. If there is one negative cultural trait that the Virgin Islanders (both *here* and *there*) have inherited from Scandinavia, then its envy. The reason behing the intense envy towards Hispanics prevalent in the Cruzan Islands can be found in the Jante's Law mentality, which was described by the Dano-Norwegian author, Aksel Sandemose, of consisting of the following ten commandments:
1 Thou shalt not presume that thou art anyone important.
2 Thou shalt not presume that thou art as good as us.
3 Thou shalt not presume that thou art any wiser than us.
4 Thou shalt never indulge in the conceit of imagining that thou art better than us.
5 Thou shalt not presume that thou art more knowledgeable than us.
6 Thou shalt not presume that thou art more than us in any way.
7 Thou shalt not presume that that thou art going to amount to anything.
8 Thou art not entitled to laugh at us.
9 Thou shalt never imagine that anyone cares about thee.
10 Thou shalt not suppose that thou can teach us anything.
These ten laws stand as a fairly accurate depiction of moral code in Scandinavia as well as the Cruzan Islands today. It can be said that many Cruzados live by these laws, consciously or not, and embrace them deeply. Envy, despite being a Christian sin, is a principle part of Jante's Law. Breaking this social code means that your neighbors will despise you for your individuality, uniqueness, or an excess show of wealth. In fact, one could venture to say that in Cruzan society, breaking Jante's Law is in and of itself much worse than committing the sin of envy.
Despite the fact that the Scandinavian Realm is a monarchy where a couple of states even have a ruling nobility, Jante's Law ensures that all states are largely egalitarian. The royals and the nobility do not flaunt their wealth and status as much as in other monarchies, and the monarch has been reduced today to a symbolic head of state with virtually no powers.
What purpose does Jante's Law serve in Cruzan society today? Sandemose wrote, "By means of Jante's Law, people stamp out each other's chances in life." This cruel statement taken by itself paints a harsh and unforgiving picture of Cruzado society. Yet, the laws serve a purpose deeply rooted in historical background. In early provincial Scandinavia and its former colonies, strong community solidarity was necessary to tie people together and to survive as a collective. The survival of the community as an entire entity was more important than any individual member, and thus the moral code behind Jante's Law was formed. Very provincial.
When emancipation was granted to the Cruzan Islands in 1849, Jante's Law became more prevalent in the Cruzado society, and the disparity between incomes gradually grew lesser. The Cruzan Islands was well on its way to becoming an egalitarian state after it recieved its independence in 1937. The Cruzan Islands were in the process of dismantling the old plantation system and introducing the homesteading system. However, this development was suddenly interrupted ten years later when Florida invaded the islands and reintroduced the plantation system where rich Floridian hacienda owners took over the remaining plantations and bought out the homesteaders.
It should come as no surprise that Florida's violent way of annexing the islands has left a deep seated grudge with most Cruzans: "Florida shall not presume that it is anything important to us, as good as us, wiser than us, etc.". Alonso Rivera's laissez fare style of governing the islands worked well for Florida in so far as it allowed the Cruzans to govern themselves with no interference from Florida. But the grudge against the Floridians was always there, particularly against the rich Hispanic plantation owners.
After the Floridian Plan went into effect, the Cruzans became more confident to decide over their own affairs and to express more openly what they think of the Hispanic population. When the homesteading system was reintroduced, the Hispanic population really began to feel pursecuted by the Cruzan population.
2004 has been a devastating year for Florida-Caribbea. After the referrendum on the Caribbean Plan, Florida fully expected that life could return to normal and peace could at last settle over the country. However, that peace was shattered when one of the provinces, the Cruzan Islands, decided to vote independence for itself. This illegal action on the part of the Cruzans government and the stubborn refusal of the Cruzan leadership to step down forced Florida to take military action. Shortly thereafter, a long planned but ill conceived coup d'etat toppled Mr Bush from the presidency and flung Florida into an unwinnable war that has utterly destroyed the country.
Scandinavian historian Kristian Jensen wrote a short article on the matter:
The Florida War took place in March, 2004. The immediate cause was the declaration of independence by the [Cruzan Islands]?, but it is really much more complicated.
The islands had long been an unhappy conquest of Florida-Caribbea, and a source of friction between FC and the Scandinavian Realm. On the 30th of July, 2003, as part of Jaime Bush's Caribbean Plan, an FC-SR condominium status for the Cruzans was approved in a referendum.
However, a constitutional crisis then arose shortly afterwards. In the Cruzan Constitution, any changes of sovereignty must be approved in a referendum with a 75% yes vote and with more than 50% voter-turnout. While the voter turn-out was indeed way above 50%, the approval of the Caribbean Plan was just barely 53%. The question was whether the referendum about a change in sovereignty. The Cruzan High Court resolved this when they ruled on the 12th of June, 2003, that the referendum was not about sovereignty issues. But rumours of corrupt High Court judges and payola stifled the credibility of this ruling for months to come.
In September, 2003, the Cruzan Parliament passed a law, the Homesteading Plan, which allowed the Cruzan government the right of first purchase whenever an estate was for sale. Estates purchased by the Cruzan government were then to be divided into smaller portions, which were then to be sold as homesteads, where native Cruzado citizens have the right of first purchase, other Scandinavians second, and other Antilleanos third.
In the following months, Cruzans started to discriminate against Hispanic residing in the islands in what seemed to be a deliberate attempt to force them to sell their properties. Hispanic owned shops were boycotted, and violence towards Hispanics increased as well. Hispanic residents began to pack up and leave.
On the 5th of February, 2004, Cruzan Television broadcasted a documentary, which claimed that two of the three Cruzan High Court judges were paid by Floridian Vice President Simon Eugenio Higgins-Calvo to rule in favor of the Floridian plan. The Cruzans were outraged. But so was Miami. Alleging that the Cruzan Islanders were ethnically the islands against the Hispanic residents, Bush sent in a contingent of the Guardia Nacional. The Cruzan Islanders objected to the troops, objecting to the claims of ethnic cleansing, insisting that the emmigration of Hispanics was entirely voluntary.
On February 20, the Cruzan Islanders called for a new referendum on full sovreignty to be held on the 29th. FC sent in more troops to "restore order". A formal declaration of independance was made on March 12. Florida could not accept this declaration. They arrested several Cruzan personalities and executed them, including Alonso Rivera, former Floridian governor of the Cruzans and Nobel Peace Price candidate. Fighting broke out between Floridian and Cruzan troops.
On the 13th, in response to Floridian aggression against the Cruzan Islanders, the SR declared war on FC. The NAL soon joined the SR's coallition. On March 18, Jaime Bush was overthrown as President by General Silva-Gonzalez. The next day, an atomic bomb was exploded in Charlotte Amalie, the capital of the Cruzan Islands. On the 23rd, the NAL invaded northern Florida, while the SR and her allies invaded in the South. The SR forces went completely berserk, after hearing that their West Indian capital had been completely destroyed by an atomic bomb, and fought with frenzied rage. The entirety of the Floridian penninsula was secured by the 24th. In a last-ditch effort by FC diehards against the coallition, a second atomic bomb was exploded aboard a small boat in the Gulf of Mexico causing radioactive contamination of the entire lower Mississippi Basin.
Many SR troops could not control their rage, and let out on Florida's cultural treasures, destroying several monuments, burning museums, desacrating graves, and confiscating much of Banco de Florida's gold and silver reserves. The SR promptly received international condemnation for their excessively harsh treatment of Florida, but were allowed to keep the gold and silver reserves to pay for the destruction of Charlotte Amalie.
After the war was over, the SR handed their occupation zone to the Republic of the Two Crowns. Ireland also has a small share of Florida. Cuba and Porto Rico have been restored as independent nations, while the rest of the Caribbean has been returned to its original, pre-conquest, status. The American occupation zone of Florida appears to be Americanizing now, and may soon become NAL provinces.[KJ]
The only portion of the old regime left unconquered is the eastern half of the island of Hispannola. The Louisianans have made some overtures towards invading that part of the island, but as of mid 2004, the island's destiny is an unknown. As 2004 has progressed, it seems that Haytian emperor Dieudonné III shall end up ruling a unified Hispannola island.
A correspondence concerning Florida from June 2004:
--- Nik Taylor wrote: > Padraic Brown wrote: > > I think that's just a matter of tradition, the > > Council Fire business. A sort of first step, and > > certainly a good photo op! The Convention is > > indeed the one that will decide yea or nay. > > Makes sense. What will the Floridas need to be > considered? _UNOFFICIALLY_ the NAL very much wants Florida, if for no other reason than to keep it out of trouble. Various and sundry Plans, Schemes, Discussions and white papers have been floating around Philly regarding the Floridian Question. The answers have been somewhat veiled and opaque, but largely point towards Florida in some way becomming an American territory. Some prefer a kind of Colony that can be directly administered from Philly; others prefer full provincehood, because that would avoid uprisings and the other provinces could nudge the Flordians back onto the right track should anything go amiss. Plus, provincehood would create a tighter and closer bond than independence or colonyhood would do. _OFFICIALLY_ the sooner Florida can adopt and adapt to some civilised form of government, i.e., something along the lines of the NAL itself!, the better. The civilian administration has been working on instituting some democratic reforms in elections processes and eliminating the curiously Floridian art known as Graft and Kickback from the day to day running of goverment offices. Ideally, we'd like government appointees, employees and elected officials to do their jobs because of a sense of duty to King and Country, not because they want to stuff their pockets with five quid notes. Naturally, "King" with respect to Florida would be no more than a figure of speech. Unlike the British and Scandinavian provinces, being a "subject of the monarch" would be rather irrelevant, since they don't have one. > I would imagine some kind of provincial > constitution (charter?). Yes. Some form of Charter, and the means to put it into effect, will be required. > Will the question of money come before or after > acceptance? That's not really a question. If they are accepted, the Castillian words that translate pound, shilling and penny* will be used. Libra or escudo are likely candidates for pound. Peso is most likely out, because that reminds one too much of the previous regime. Perhaps soldo or peseta or escudo could be adopted for "shilling" and perhaps denario or rubio or maravedi could be adopted for "penny". The sol coins have already been declared valid at 3 to the penny; so a new denomination could come into being in Florida in place of the half penny. Or they could skip pennies altogether and use soles: you'd have coins of one sol (1/3d) 3 soles (1d) and 9 soles (3d). Therefore, a 1-20-720 prgression. In any event, the two systems mesh by using the grano (or 1/3f coin) which is a twelfth of a penny and both the sol and farthing are even multiples. Apart from that, the Promise needs to be translated into Castillian. Based on models from *here* (Mexico and Argentina): "Prometo pagar la cantidad de £X al portador". Naturally, the banking system would have to be integrated into that of the NAL. Can't have an individual province sinking its economy by printing itself into inflationary oblivion! > Any other requirements? They'll have to learn probably English at least as a second language and might want to become familiar with Brithenig and Tsalagey... You know, it's Summer and the beaches will beckon! Of course, that's reciprocal - admission of the Floridas will mean a new language in the Convention Hall!
It should be noted that West Florida and East Florida are to be readmitted to the NAL (after some two centuries under Castilian and Floridian rule) in January or February of 2005.
Following is a(n anymore not so) recent thread on the evolution of modern Floridian history.
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go? --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote: > > NEWS IN BRIEF, Georgetown, Maryland: May 12, 2003. > > > > TWO WARS DOWN, ONE TO GO? That's what everyone in Philadelphia is asking > > today, now that two of the world's three hotspots have cooled down > > somewhat. As of last week, the war in Hunan is over, leaving Canton, their > > Commonwealth allies and other foreign friends victorious. > I'm still behind by about 500 posts, so forgive me if what I'm about to write > is not up to date. Not entirely! I've been waiting for your return, so I can find out what those Scandinavian warmongers are going to do next!! ;) > But after reading the above news brief, I suspect that a League of Nations > will assemble a meeting very soon (if it has not already), to discuss what to > do with Florida's refusal to recognize Haytian, Cruzan, and other Westindian > sovereignty. Naturally, the LoN will meddle - but they're notoriously slow to consider acting; and even slower to act. And when they do, it'll most likely be a slap on the wrist. The trouble will naturally come in the form of the "Grand Coalition" - and what the individual Governments of its members decide to do! Anyway, it is to these Governments (less Spain and France) that the Treaty and Plan are addressed. Spain's support for war is dwindling, as the F-C is a major trading partner; France is considered a meddling irrelevancy to the matter at hand. RE: the Caribbean Plan. > A group of FK, SR, and NAL officials have been sent by the League of Nations > to Florida for one final parley with the Floridian government. Their terms, > as always: They will be made welcome, as always, but should realise that they are not in a position to dictate terms. Rather, the Plan and the Treaty are offered _to_ the SR, NAL & the FK. > Florida-Caribbea must accept that they don't have any claims to and must > recognize the independence of; Hayti, Jamaica, the Virgin Islands, the > Bahamas, and the Lesser Antilles. Naturally, this is not possible. European powers have no business dictating to Florida its own ideas concerning internal Floridian policies. Florida is well within its rights to despatch rebellious regions as it sees fit. > In return, the FK, SR, and NAL governments will recognize Floridian > sovereignty over Florida, Cuba, Eastern Hispaniola (Dominica), and San Juan > Island (Puerto Rico). We would be laughed at (by you) if we demanded that the SR restrict itself to no more than its Oldenburg lands. > Refusal on the part of Florida-Caribbea to accept the above terms will compel the League of Nations to sanction the use of force against Florida-Caribbea. The LoN should concentrate on the Plan, rather than issue demands and dictate unreasonable terms. Naturally, Florida is comprehensive in its desire to rebuild war-torn regions (Hayti and the Cruzans are of especial interest here), enhance regions neglected by former colonial powers and improve the lot of all Antilleanos; it is also quite liberal in its plan to foster regional autonomy and in its offer of condominium status to selected annexed regions. It explicitly lays out an expanded array of civil rights and governmental limitations that will come to be in the new Florida. It also lays out the groundwork for a Constitutional Convention within the next year that will enshrine these rights, currently enjoyed by non-colonial Floridians, for all. For example, current (colonial era) restrictions on the press, religious rights, sufferage and migration will be lifted. As of now, most colonies have decent educational systems (but are not accessible to all) and poor healthcare. Those too will change. Economic issues are to be dealt with, on a national and regional basis, and the range of inflated colonial currencies are to be abolished in favour of the peso. Padraic.
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:44:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go? ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Costentin Cornomorus" <elemtilas@yahoo.com> Til: <conculture@yahoogroups.com> Sendt: 29. juni 2003 00:06 Emne: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go? > --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote: > -----<snip>----- > The LoN should concentrate on the Plan, rather than issue demands and dictate > unreasonable terms. I wrote all this before I read about the plan. I was still catching up, y'know ;) Anyways, the plan looks fairly reasonable. But there are a couple of adjustments and clarifiactions that'll have to be made before it is fully acceptable to both the SR and the Cruzan gov't-in-exile. > Naturally, Florida is comprehensive in its desire to rebuild war-torn regions > (Hayti and the Cruzans are of especial interest here), Ah yes... all those colorful neo-classical dano-norwegian buildings in Charlotte Amalie, Frederiksted, and Christiansted. They'll have to be renovated. Especially for the tourism industry. Fresh water has also always been a problem - the Cruzan Islands, as small as they are, have no aquifers to speak of. So there must be made some arrangement to import fresh water from Florida-Caribbea. The sugar-pipelines would also have to be rebuilt to get the agriculture economy going. > enhance regions neglected by former colonial powers and improve the lot of > all Antilleanos; I can't speak for other former colonial powers, but the SR constitution explicitly states that all citizens (whether in Scandinavia proper or in the associated states) are guaranteed exactly the same rights and standard of living. > it is also quite liberal in its plan to foster regional autonomy and in its > offer of condominium status to selected annexed regions. Autonomy is important. Question is, what new status would the Cruzan Islands have? If the Cruzan Islands are to become a condominium, how much autonomy will they have from the Floridian gov't? Would the Cruzan gov't still be in free association with the SR gov't, or would it have to be reclassified as an affiliate to the SR gov't (like New Sweden and New Iceland)? > It explicitly lays out an expanded array of civil rights and governmental > limitations that will come to be in the new Florida. It also lays out the > groundwork for a Constitutional Convention within the next year that will > enshrine these rights, currently enjoyed by non-colonial Floridians, for all. Sounds alright. > For example, current (colonial era) restrictions on the press, religious > rights, sufferage and migration will be lifted. There are no current colonial era restrictions in the Cruzan Constitution. > As of now, most colonies have decent educational systems (but are not > accessible to all) and poor healthcare. That's not a fair assessment. It's difficult to provide decent educational and healthcare systems when the land is under dispute. > Those too will change. Economic issues are to be dealt with, on a national > and regional basis, and the range of inflated colonial currencies are to be > abolished in favour of the peso. If that's so, that would mean that that the Cruzan islands would be an affiliated SR state rather a freely associated one. *** The Cruzan Constitution must be respected. As dictated by the Cruzan Constitution, any changes to the sovereignty of the Cruzan Islands must be put to a referendum, where only Cruzan citizens can vote. There are two sovereignty issues in the Floridian plan that needs to be put to a referendum: 1) The change of the Cruzan Island's sovereignty status from an SR state to a condominium state between the SR and Florida. 2) The change in the currency. Obviously, it'd be most practical to put (1) to the vote first. If the result is a "yes" to the change in sovereignty, then (2) can be put to the vote. If the vote to (1) is a "no", then the plan must be revised and then put through another referendum. *** The probationary period of the condominium status must be discussed in more detail. How long is the period? What are the conditions of the probation? *** The SR's share of the condominium only involves the territory within Cruzan sovereignty. Therefore, the SR and the Cruzan gov'ts will not accept getting involved in any conflict that Florida may be drawn into. This includes fighting privateers and covert operatives outside the territorial waters and airspace of the Cruzan Islands, whether they are our citizens or foreign citizens. On a related note: The SR privateering fleet has at the moment been instructed to pause on their activities. But a few private military companies are anticipating the end of their services. Some that have surrendered their privateering licenses intend to go on without legal backing from the SR. *** The map provided by the plan is incorrect. The Cruzan Islands also includes the Crab (Vieques) and Culebra Islands. If it indeed was the intention of the plan that Crab and Culebra islands be taken from Cruzan sovereignty, then this must also be put to a referendum. -kristian-
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go? --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote: > > The LoN should concentrate on the Plan, rather than issue demands and > > dictate unreasonable terms. > > I wrote all this before I read about the plan. I was still catching up, > y'know ;) Well, naturally, the Scandinavians should actually _read_ the Plan before they spout off! ;) > Anyways, the plan looks fairly reasonable. But there are a couple of > adjustments and clarifiactions that'll have to be made before it is fully > acceptable to both the SR and the Cruzan gov't-in-exile. Just to make a clarification: for the most part, the Plan is not a negotiable offer. Certainly, there are points where some leeway will be granted (and know this: the Cruzans are being given more leeway than any other territory!); but the Cruzados must be more accepting of reality as well. > > Naturally, Florida is comprehensive in its desire to rebuild war-torn > > regions (Hayti and the Cruzans are of especial interest here), > > Ah yes... all those colorful neo-classical dano-norwegian buildings in > Charlotte Amalie, Frederiksted, and Christiansted. They'll have to be > renovated. Especially for the tourism industry. Naturally. Tourism is the big draw in most of the territories! Also, what do those cities correspond to *here*? I might as well change those on the map. > Fresh water has also always been a problem [Actually, I didn't know that!] > - the Cruzan Islands, as small as they are, have no aquifers to speak of. So > there must be made some arrangement to import fresh water from Florida- > Caribbea. The sugar-pipelines would also have to be rebuilt to get the > agriculture economy going. Such infrastructure would be emplaced whether or not the SR accepts the Treaty. > > enhance regions neglected by former colonial powers and improve the lot of > > all Antilleanos; > > I can't speak for other former colonial powers, but the SR constitution > explicitly states that all citizens (whether in Scandinavia proper or in the > associated states) are guaranteed exactly the same rights and standard of > living. Naturally, the language of the Treaty and the Plan are as inclusive as possible. It just won't do to make a statement and then require a paragraph explaining which colonies it did or didn't apply to. The Cruzans are considered to be one of the more enlightened territories. > > it is also quite liberal in its plan to foster regional autonomy and in its > > offer of condominium status to selected annexed regions. > > Autonomy is important. Question is, what new status would the Cruzan Islands > have? If the Cruzan Islands are to become a condominium, how much autonomy > will they have from the Floridian gov't? Naturally, local governance will have to come from the Cruzados themselves; just like any other province. Matters of defense, international diplomacy and the like will come from the appropriate capital (either Miami or La Habana); just like any other province. > Would the Cruzan gov't still be in free association with the SR gov't, or > would it have to be reclassified as an affiliate to the SR gov't (like New > Sweden and New Iceland)? More the latter. Florida isn't _quite_ as loose-reined as the NAL in this matter. It would be a little more like a US state *here*: this is not a revocable union, and external matters of defense and diplomacy are to be handled from Miami without consultation with the SR. > > It explicitly lays out an expanded array of civil rights and governmental > > limitations that will come to be in the new Florida. It also lays out the > > groundwork for a Constitutional Convention within the next year that will > > enshrine these rights, currently enjoyed by non-colonial Floridians, for > > all. > > Sounds alright. This period is as much about internal development of Florida than about petty conquests. > > For example, current (colonial era) restrictions on the press, religious > > rights, sufferage and migration will be lifted. > > There are no current colonial era restrictions in the Cruzan Constitution. There are an appaling number of Governors, however, who have operated quite independently of their colonial home offices. They make Florida's mistreatment of their territories look good! > > As of now, most colonies have decent educational systems (but are not > > accessible to all) and poor healthcare. > > That's not a fair assessment. It's difficult to provide decent educational > and healthcare systems when the land is under dispute. Shamefully (?), annexed territories have not always been treated as equal to the Provinces. Anyway, even prior to 1946, medical facilities in the Cruzans were somewhat lacking. Medical facilities in all territories will be brought up to AMF (Floridian Assiciation of Physicians) standards; for international comparison, these standards are equivalent to Kemrese and American standards. [I.e., the Best! :) ] Educational standards will also have to be brought up to spec. Local Boards of Education will largely remain in control of local schools; but the standards and curricula must meet national goals. Some localities will have an established BoE imposed upon them for one reason or another; usually because the locality is too small or poor. > > Those too will change. Economic issues are to be dealt with, on a national > > and regional basis, and the range of inflated colonial currencies are to > > be abolished in favour of the peso. > > If that's so, that would mean that that the Cruzan islands would be an > affiliated SR state rather a freely associated one. Sounds about right. > *** > > The Cruzan Constitution must be respected. Such parts of it that do not contradict National Law or the Constitution will be left intact. The Constitution of the Presidency is the supreme Law of the country; as such, it must not be superceded by any Provincial constitution or territorial legal code. > As dictated by the Cruzan Constitution, any changes to the sovereignty of > the Cruzan Islands must be put to a referendum, where only Cruzan citizens > can vote. A mere formality, however. > There are two sovereignty issues in the Floridian plan that needs to be put > to a referendum: 1) The change of the Cruzan Island's sovereignty status from > an SR state to a condominium state between the SR and Florida. While the de facto annexation of the Cruzans in 1946 is immutable; such a vote would not be disallowed, and could be considered cathartic. We shall simply have to hope that the Cruzados will see sense and won't be unduly swayed by spin and propaganda!! ;) > 2) The change in the currency. > > Obviously, it'd be most practical to put (1) to the vote first. If the result > is a "yes" to the change in sovereignty, then (2) can be put to the vote. > > If the vote to (1) is a "no", then the plan must be revised and then put > through another referendum. It must be stressed once again that, while the Plan is for the benefit of the territories, the consent of the territories is not a prerequisite. The only consent that is required for the fullness of the Plan to take effect is that of the former colonial governments. This consent is required for issues such as state of war or peace and for condominiumhood to take effect. That the Cruzados are allowed varying levels of "choice" in the matter is singular (and, rumour has it that the Cruzan Provision only barely passed through Congress). Most territories will simply have the Plan and a new government imposed, and that shall be that. > *** > > The probationary period of the condominium status must be discussed in more > detail. How long is the period? What are the conditions of the probation? Ah. The probationary period is only to take effect in Mobile (Florida del Occidente). After that period and an evaluation process, the annexed territory will be returned to the NAL province of Mobile. The reason for this is simple: Mobile was temporarily siezed as a means of a) keeping Lousiana in check and b) preventing the NAL easy access to the Gulf from the west. Assuming that the GM and the FP give their Governments' nod of approval to the Treaty, Mobile will be returned unmolested. As it stands, the internal governance of Mobile is unaltered and life has continued unchanged apart from a strict border control policy. > *** > > The SR's share of the condominium only involves the territory within Cruzan > sovereignty. Therefore, the SR and the Cruzan gov'ts will not accept getting > involved in any conflict that Florida may be drawn into. The Nation would not expect help from the SR. The Armed Forces have long been a voluntary organistion (since 1983): Cruzados will be free to choose whether or not to engage in military services to the Nation. Naturally, such will be encouraged but none will be compelled or drafted. Also, under the new migration policies, any that wish to render military service to the SR or one of its states shall be free to do so. In fact, a portion of their time served would count towards retirement benefits from the Floridian Military should they decide to pursue such a career. The only stipulation is: should the SR and Florida engage in war during their time of service in the SR military, such persons serving with the SR will not be allowed to return to Florida. It should also be stressed that the Islas Cruzadas will become a coequal province within the Presidency. As such, Provincial cooperation will be required! > This includes fighting privateers and covert operatives outside the > territorial waters and airspace of the Cruzan Islands, whether they are our > citizens or foreign citizens. Any Cruzan officer that refuses to render aid to any Floridian military vessel, or to any commercial vessel regardless of registration, will be subject to military Law. It might also be of interest to note that, under the Floridian military code, our vessels would be required to render assistance to Scandinavian military vessels that come under attack; whether or not the Government is officially involved in the matter. Same would apply to American and Scottish vessels under attack. > On a related note: The SR privateering fleet has at the moment been > instructed to pause on their activities. The SR is to be commended for this action! Naval forces will be alerted of the change in status of these irregulars. > But a few private military companies are anticipating the end of their > services. Some that have surrendered their privateering licenses intend > to go on without legal backing from the SR. They will naturally remain fair game for persuit, seizure and punishment as previously. > *** > > The map provided by the plan is incorrect. The > Cruzan Islands also > includes the Crab (Vieques) and Culebra > Islands. If it indeed was the > intention of the plan that Crab and Culebra > islands be taken from > Cruzan sovereignty, then this must also be put > to a referendum. Ah yes. The original plan was to draw the line at 65degW, thus creating Eastern and Western Antilles regions. Margarita and Tortuga would thus have become a Province. Final provincial boundaries have not been decided on as of yet; but it is seen as a Good Thing for "colonial units" to continue as Provinces. Thus, I am sure that those two islands will remain with the Cruzans. The updated map is corrected to reflect proper Cruzan territorial extent. It also shows the (most likely) finalised boundaries for the English and French and Batavian islands. ***** As a side note, regarding the use of terms like "territory" and "province". The Presidency is divided up in various fashions to allow for smooth local governance that interfaces will with higher levels of Government. At the top, naturally, is the Constitution, which is the supreme Law in effect within the territorial extent of the Presidency. Neither foreign laws nor lower level charters must be allowed to supercede it. Under the C comes the National Congress, the President, the Court systems and all local constitutions and charters. Under Congress come all the civil Provinces (Florida, Cuba, Hispaniola, etc.) and Territories (Cruzans, Bahamas, Batavian Antilles, etc.), each Province having a Governor and an assembly. Each Province may be further divided into Prefectures (roughly counties in the US) and Municipalities which are the local units of government. The Territories are generally overseen by a Territorial Governor, often in conjunction with the precolonial government that may still be in place. Traditionally, these have been the personal fiefs of senior Congressmen or business leaders (undoubtedly, this has been one of the principal complaints of the Cruzados!); as they were not responsible to the people of their fief and only marginally responsible to Congress. This state of affairs was altered in 1996; but little has been done to relieve the situation since. Hence the Plan. Usually, a Territroy is not subdivided; but that will undoubtedly change once Provincial status is conferred. Under the President come the Military Provinces, which are those areas that are under direct military governance. Curently, Hayti, Turks & Caycos and Caymans are the only M-Ps. A military governor is assigned by the War Department and that person is in charge of keeping order and offering basic infrastructure support. Any local subdivisions and government structures are suspended pending return to postwar civil control. Also suspended or restricted are civil rights, the press, etc. Under the Department of the Navy come the special Naval Provinces. These are, especially, the San Andres group and Swan Is. Any cay or small rock not privately owned, any lighthouse installation and any deep-anchored naval station in the Atlantic fall under this category. For the most part, there are no civilians on these places and the military code is in effect. In general, each Province and Territory has its own tradition of government and its own constitutions or colonial charters. For the most part, those will be swept away in order to eliminate any colonial influence; local populations will be required to formulate new constitutions. If they don't do it now while the Plan is taking effect, they will probably have to do so once the National Constitution is considered in next year's convention. Padraic.
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:27:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go?
----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: "Costentin Cornomorus" <elemtilas@yahoo.com>
Til: <conculture@yahoogroups.com>
Sendt: 30. juni 2003 19:05
Emne: Re: [conculture] Two wars down, one to go?
> --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
-----<snip>-----
> > Anyways, the plan looks fairly reasonable. But
> > there are a couple of
> > adjustments and clarifiactions that'll have to
> > be made before it is
> > fully acceptable to both the SR and the Cruzan
> > gov't-in-exile.
>
> Just to make a clarification: for the most part,
> the Plan is not a negotiable offer. Certainly,
> there are points where some leeway will be
> granted (and know this: the Cruzans are being
> given more leeway than any other territory!); but
> the Cruzados must be more accepting of reality as
> well.
I'm sure most are all tire of the conflict
anyways. But there are also
ultra-right wing conservatives, particularly the
majority of white
Cruzans and a few mulattos, who want to keep the
close relationship
with the SR.
All Cruzans, however, agree that the islands must
remain a sovereign
state with its own constitution. So the current
debate in the islands
evolves around the question of how free the
Cruzans will be under
Floridan dominance. Apparently (from what I read
below), the Cruzan
Islands have under Floridan occupation been ruled
as personal fiefdoms
of senior
Congressmen with utter disregard for the Cruzan
Constitution.
First impressions last, I'm afraid. Most Cruzans
are sceptical of the
plan. Protest demonstrations against the peace
plan are right now
being held in Frihetpark (Emancipation Park)
outside Die Groenhus
("The Green House", which is the Cruzan
parliamentary building) in
Charlotte Amalie. The people haven't forgotten
that Florida robbed the
Cruzans of their sovereignty in '46 without
asking first, and there
are serious doubts that Florida will take any
referendum over Cruzan
sovereignty seriously. Many are convinced that
all that Florida wants
is the SR off its back.
-----<snip>-----
> > Ah yes... all those colorful neo-classical
> > dano-norwegian buildings in
> > Charlotte Amalie, Frederiksted, and
> > Christiansted. They'll have to be
> > renovated. Especially for the tourism industry.
>
> Naturally. Tourism is the big draw in most of the
> territories!
>
> Also, what do those cities correspond to *here*?
> I might as well change those on the map.
They're exactly the same as *here*. Charlotte
Amalie, the capital, is
on the island of Saint Thomas. The other two
towns are found on Saint
Croix. Saint John is a National Park.
But here a couple of things you could change on
the map. Since all of
the Virgin Islands of *here* plus the islands of
Culebra and Vieques
are called the Cruzan Islands *there*, then some
of them would have to
be renamed. Here's what I propose:
The three islands of the former Danish West
Indies *here* (Saint
Thomas, Saint John, and Saint Croix) have the
same names *there*,
though I'd prefer Saint John to be called by it's
Scandinavian name,
"Saint Jan". This will also avoid confusion with
"San Juan", which is
the original name of Puerto Rico anyway. You
might even want to go all
the way and replace "Saint" by the more
Scandinavian "Sankt".
Afterall, nobody calls "San Juan" as "Saint
John".
The islands of the British Virgin Islands *here*
would also have
Scandinavian names. The same goes for the islands
of Culebra and
Vieques. I'll name them after Scandinavian saints
or other saints that
are important to Scandinavian history. The name
changes I suggest are:
-Tortola *here* = Sankt Olav *there*
-Virgin Gorda *here* = Sankt Knud *there*
-Anegada *here* = Sankt Birgitta *there*
-Culebra *here* = Sankt Hans *there*
-Vieques *here* = Sankt Alban *there*
The capital of the British Virgin Islands *here*
is Roadtown, which
can be translated into IB's Rigsmål as "Vegby".
On the Vieques there is a town called Isabela
Segunda. This should be
changed to Hoppesby, name after viceadmiral
Hoppe, who raised the
Dannebrog on the island a second time in 1688 to
assert Dano-Norwegian
claims to the island.
> > Fresh water has also always been a problem
>
> [Actually, I didn't know that!]
The only local source of fresh water comes from
rainwater cisterns
underneath each and every building on the
islands. I have even read
that *here* tourists are adviced only to flush
the toilet after doing
number two. It's a typical problem for tiny
(sub)tropical islands like
Bermuda and the Lesser Antilles.
-----<snip>-----
> > Autonomy is important. Question is, what new
> > status would the Cruzan
> > Islands have? If the Cruzan Islands are to
> > become a condominium, how
> > much autonomy will they have from the Floridian
> > gov't?
>
> Naturally, local governance will have to come
> from the Cruzados themselves; just like any other
> province. Matters of defense, international
> diplomacy and the like will come from the
> appropriate capital (either Miami or La Habana);
Or Gjøteborg or DVC ("Det Vestindisk-Guinea
Compagnie" - which is the
Guinea-Westindian naval fleet of the SR).
> just like any other province.
Just like any other associated or affiliated
state of the SR.
> > Would the
> > Cruzan gov't still be in free association with
> > the SR gov't, or would
> > it have to be reclassified as an affiliate to
> > the SR gov't (like New Sweden and New Iceland)?
>
> More the latter. Florida isn't _quite_ as
> loose-reined as the NAL in this matter. It would
> be a little more like a US state *here*: this is
> not a revocable union, and external matters of
> defense and diplomacy are to be handled from
> Miami without consultation with the SR.
This will have to be put through a referendum.
Only if the Cruzans
themselves say "yes" to a change in sovereignty
will the SR government
surrender its obligations of defence and
diplomacy.
-----<snip>-----
> > > For example, current (colonial era)
> > > restrictions
> > > on the press, religious rights, sufferage and
> > > migration will be lifted.
> >
> > There are no current colonial era restrictions
> > in the Cruzan Constitution.
>
> There are an appaling number of Governors,
> however, who have operated quite independently of
> their colonial home offices. They make Florida's
> mistreatment of their territories look good!
Naturally, the Cruzan Prime Minister and his
government operates quite
independently of the SR government in issues
other than defense and
foreign diplomacy. The Cruzan Islands got their
independence in 1936
afterall. They have had their own parliament with
their own PM ever
since. So no Governers to speak of. This
independence, however, is
something that the Cruzans will not want to give
up.
-----<snip>-----
> > ***
> >
> > The Cruzan Constitution must be respected.
>
> Such parts of it that do not contradict National
> Law or the Constitution will be left intact. The
> Constitution of the Presidency is the supreme Law
> of the country; as such, it must not be
> superceded by any Provincial constitution or
> territorial legal code.
In other words, a loss of Cruzan sovereignty.
That's a hard sell to
the Cruzans. They were, afterall, a sovereign
state in personal union
and free association with the SR. But the
Floridan plan wants to
reduce the Cruzan state to nothing more than a
province.
> > As dictated by the Cruzan
> > Constitution, any changes to the sovereignty of
> > the Cruzan Islands
> > must be put to a referendum, where only Cruzan
> > citizens can vote.
>
> A mere formality, however.
No... This is a serious. It has to be respected.
> > There are two sovereignty issues in the
> > Floridian plan that needs to
> > be put to a referendum:
> > 1) The change of the Cruzan Island's
> > sovereignty status from an SR state to a
> > condominium state between the SR and Florida.
>
> While the de facto annexation of the Cruzans in
> 1946 is immutable; such a vote would not be
> disallowed, and could be considered cathartic.
The SR and Cruzan governments disagree entirely.
It'll have to be
mutable should the Cruzans decide it to be so in
a referendum. The
referendum should not be considered a purgative
act at all. The result
should be binding and respected by Florida.
> We shall simply have to hope that the Cruzados
> will see sense and won't be unduly swayed by spin
> and propaganda!! ;)
Let's hope so!! ;)
> > 2) The change in the currency.
> >
> > Obviously, it'd be most practical to put (1) to
> > the vote first. If the
> > result is a "yes" to the change in sovereignty,
> > then (2) can be put to the vote.
> >
> > If the vote to (1) is a "no", then the plan
> > must be revised and then
> > put through another referendum.
>
> It must be stressed once again that, while the
> Plan is for the benefit of the territories, the
> consent of the territories is not a prerequisite.
It's important to have the consent of the Cruzan
Government, unless
you want to insult them. Remember, it's a
sovereign state.
> The only consent that is required for the
> fullness of the Plan to take effect is that of
> the former colonial governments. This consent is
> required for issues such as state of war or peace
> and for condominiumhood to take effect.
Once again, that's for the Cruzados to decide.
> That the Cruzados are allowed varying levels of
> "choice" in the matter is singular (and, rumour
> has it that the Cruzan Provision only barely
> passed through Congress). Most territories will
> simply have the Plan and a new government
> imposed, and that shall be that.
The difference between most other territories and
the Cruzan Islands,
as far as I can gather, is that the Cruzan
Islands were a sovereign
state, like Hayti, and the others were not.
Granted, unlike Hayti, the
Cruzan Islands were freely associated with the
SR. Anyways, that's why
"choice" is important.
This makes me wonder... what about Hayti?
> > ***
> >
> > The probationary period of the condominium
> > status must be discussed in
> > more detail. How long is the period? What are
> > the conditions of the probation?
>
> Ah. The probationary period is only to take
> effect in Mobile (Florida del Occidente).
-----<snip>-----
That's unfair, as far as the Cruzans are
concerned.
-----<snip>-----
> > The map provided by the plan is incorrect. The
> > Cruzan Islands also
> > includes the Crab (Vieques) and Culebra
> > Islands. If it indeed was the
> > intention of the plan that Crab and Culebra
> > islands be taken from
> > Cruzan sovereignty, then this must also be put
> > to a referendum.
>
> Ah yes. The original plan was to draw the line at
> 65degW, thus creating Eastern and Western
> Antilles regions. Margarita and Tortuga would
> thus have become a Province. Final provincial
> boundaries have not been decided on as of yet;
> but it is seen as a Good Thing for "colonial
> units" to continue as Provinces. Thus, I am sure
> that those two islands will remain with the
> Cruzans.
That's better.
-----<snip>-----
> As a side note, regarding the use of terms like
> "territory" and "province". The Presidency is
> divided up in various fashions to allow for
> smooth local governance that interfaces will with
> higher levels of Government.
-----<snip detailed description>-----
OK... it's much clearer now what Florida wants to
do with the Cruzan
Islands. I originally thought, when you mentioned
"condominium"
status, that Florida proposed the Cruzan Islands
to become
affiliated/associated with _both_ Florida and the
SR while still
keeping its sovereignty. But looks like there is
some truth to the
concerns express by the protest demonstrations in
Charlotte Amalie.
It's clear now that what Florida really wants is
to reduce a sovereign
state into a province/territory. Of course,
that's acceptable only if
the Cruzans themselves accept. Therefore, it's
imperative that the
Cruzan Constitution be respected, and a
referendum held over whether
the Cruzan Islands are to remain a sovereign
state or become a
Floridian province/territory. It's imperative
that the referendum be
respected by Florida, and not be reduced to a
cathartic gesture. If
not, then I'm afraid this peace negotiation will
fail and hostilities
will resume.
-kristian-
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 20:24:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
--- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
> > Just to make a clarification: for the most
> > part, the Plan is not a negotiable offer.
> > Certainly,
> > there are points where some leeway will be
> > granted (and know this: the Cruzans are being
> > given more leeway than any other territory!);
> > but
> > the Cruzados must be more accepting of
> > reality as well.
>
> I'm sure most are all tire of the conflict
> anyways. But there are also
> ultra-right wing conservatives, particularly
> the majority of white
> Cruzans and a few mulattos, who want to keep
> the close relationship with the SR.
Imperialist collaborators!
> All Cruzans, however, agree that the islands
> must remain a sovereign
> state with its own constitution.
Ah - well, that kind of attitude is going to eb
the cause of trouble!
> So the current debate in the islands
> evolves around the question of how free the
> Cruzans will be under Floridan dominance.
This will largely depend on how sensible the
Cruzados show themselves to be over the next
weeks. The Floridian Government has espressed no
official opinion on the matter, but the Press has
said in no uncertain terms that the "referendum"
will in reality be a vote on whether the Cruzan
Iss. should become a newly honoured Province of
the Presidency, or be reduced to a military
territory.
The question then would seem to be: do the
Cruzados desire to accept terms and the liberties
enjoyed by Floridian citizens; or do they wish to
subjugate themselves to military dictatorship?
> Apparently (from what I read below), the Cruzan
> Islands have under Floridan occupation been
> ruled as personal fiefdoms of senior
> Congressmen with utter disregard for the Cruzan
> Constitution.
Depends on the Congressman that has controlled
the islands. The first was a terror (and as you
say later about first impressions...); recent
decades have seen laisez faire rulers who have
been content to take a cut of territorial funds
and let the Parliament do as it will. The current
incumbent, one Alonso Rivera, has been the
strongest support _for_ Cruzado rights since the
indpendence movement of the 1930s.
As one of the architechts of the Plan, you can
thank him for the fact that Charlotte Amalie is
not in ruins as is Port au Prince, and that
military presence has been minimal.
> First impressions last, I'm afraid. Most
> Cruzans are sceptical of the
> plan.
I suppose that's to be expected - but they really
don't have a choice in the matter.
> Protest demonstrations against the peace
> plan are right now
> being held in Frihetpark (Emancipation Park)
> outside Die Groenhus
> ("The Green House", which is the Cruzan
> parliamentary building) in
> Charlotte Amalie. The people haven't forgotten
> that Florida robbed the
> Cruzans of their sovereignty in '46 without
> asking first,
That's a matter of debate! Rather: The War of
Liberation (1898) set in motion great events in
the Caribbean basin. The first leaders of the new
Republic saw as their vision a great and free
nation of all Caribbian peoples; and set forth to
make that vision reality. Those that they could
find willing to join up were welcommed; others
they cajolled or bought. Some were resistant -
those need to be swept aside.
> and there
> are serious doubts that Florida will take any
> referendum over Cruzan sovereignty seriously.
To the contrary: the Congress is awaiting
developments in Charlotte Amalie with great
interest! It is true that Florida does not wish
to wage a war with a power such as the SR (and it
has long understood the SR to have little
interest in the Cruzan Iss); but their own
notions of nationhood and Destino Castellano will
not likely be deterred.
> Many are convinced that
> all that Florida wants is the SR off its back.
That is part of it, to be sure.
> -----<snip>-----
> > > Autonomy is important. Question is, what
> > > new status would the Cruzan
> > > Islands have? If the Cruzan Islands are to
> > > become a condominium, how
> > > much autonomy will they have from the
> > > Floridian gov't?
> >
> > Naturally, local governance will have to come
> > from the Cruzados themselves; just like any other
> > province. Matters of defense, international
> > diplomacy and the like will come from the
> > appropriate capital (either Miami or La
> > Habana);
>
> Or Gjøteborg or DVC ("Det Vestindisk-Guinea
> Compagnie" - which is the
> Guinea-Westindian naval fleet of the SR).
Mm. That will not be acceptable! Gjoteborg is not
a capital of the Presidency of Florida; its
government was not duly constituted according to
national Law.
While there are things that the condominium
status would allow to come from Gjoteburg,
defence and foreign policy are not two of them.
> -----<snip>-----
> > > > For example, current (colonial era)
> > > > restrictions
> > > > on the press, religious rights, sufferage and
> > > > migration will be lifted.
> > >
> > > There are no current colonial era restrictions
> > > in the Cruzan Constitution.
> >
> > There are an appaling number of Governors,
> > however, who have operated quite independently of
> > their colonial home offices. They make Florida's
> > mistreatment of their territories look good!
>
> Naturally, the Cruzan Prime Minister and his
> government operates quite
> independently of the SR government in issues
> other than defense and foreign diplomacy.
That, certainly, would not change under the new
constitution.
> The Cruzan Islands got their independence in
> 1936 afterall. They have had their own
> parliament with their own PM ever
> since. So no Governers to speak of. This
> independence, however, is
> something that the Cruzans will not want to
> give up.
It shall be an Interesting Time down the Islands!
> -----<snip>-----
> > > ***
> > >
> > > The Cruzan Constitution must be respected.
> >
> > Such parts of it that do not contradict National
> > Law or the Constitution will be left intact. The
> > Constitution of the Presidency is the supreme Law
> > of the country; as such, it must not be
> > superceded by any Provincial constitution or
> > territorial legal code.
>
> In other words, a loss of Cruzan sovereignty.
As an "independent" country, yes. Of course,
that's something that has not been reality since
1946...
> That's a hard sell to
> the Cruzans. They were, afterall, a sovereign
> state in personal union
> and free association with the SR. But the
> Floridan plan wants to
> reduce the Cruzan state to nothing more than a
> province.
There is one Republic! And one Government
encompassed it!
> > > As dictated by the Cruzan
> > > Constitution, any changes to the sovereignty of
> > > the Cruzan Islands
> > > must be put to a referendum, where only Cruzan
> > > citizens can vote.
> >
> > A mere formality, however.
>
> No... This is a serious. It has to be
> respected.
Oo. While I personally agree, Florida does not
see it this way. The Cruzans are teetering on the
border of a state of rebellion. Florida's
nationalsit ideals do not (and have never) gotten
along well with powerful regions - to say nothing
of (semi)independent ones. I fear that the Plan
will not reach its fullness, and that hostilities
between the SR and Florida may be unavoidable.
> > > There are two sovereignty issues in the
> > > Floridian plan that needs to
> > > be put to a referendum:
> > > 1) The change of the Cruzan Island's
> > > sovereignty status from an SR state to a
> > > condominium state between the SR and Florida.
> >
> > While the de facto annexation of the Cruzans
> > in
> > 1946 is immutable; such a vote would not be
> > disallowed, and could be considered cathartic.
>
> The SR and Cruzan governments disagree
> entirely. It'll have to be
> mutable should the Cruzans decide it to be so
> in a referendum.
As the Governor of San Juan said this week: "If
they should vote _no_ in their referendum, they
should prepare to drag their islands back to
Scandinavia."
> The
> referendum should not be considered a purgative
> act at all. The result
> should be binding and respected by Florida.
You ask a sovereign nation to allow the excision
of an integral part of its whole!
> > > 2) The change in the currency.
> > >
> > > Obviously, it'd be most practical to put (1) to
> > > the vote first. If the
> > > result is a "yes" to the change in sovereignty,
> > > then (2) can be put to the vote.
> > >
> > > If the vote to (1) is a "no", then the plan
> > > must be revised and then
> > > put through another referendum.
> >
> > It must be stressed once again that, while
> > the
> > Plan is for the benefit of the territories,
> > the
> > consent of the territories is not a
> > prerequisite.
>
> It's important to have the consent of the
> Cruzan Government, unless
> you want to insult them. Remember, it's a
> sovereign state.
Was. In 1946. It has long led a coddled, half
vanquished existence for half a century. Also
from San Juan this week: "They ought to have been
dealt with sternly in the 1940s. We wouldn't be
having all these protests now had the Government
clamped down on them from the first." I suppose
it is the fault of the Government for allowing
the Cruzados to maintain the idea they were not,
in fact, Antilleanos! ;)
> > That the Cruzados are allowed varying levels of
> > "choice" in the matter is singular (and, rumour
> > has it that the Cruzan Provision only barely
> > passed through Congress). Most territories will
> > simply have the Plan and a new government
> > imposed, and that shall be that.
>
> The difference between most other territories
> and the Cruzan Islands,
> as far as I can gather, is that the Cruzan
> Islands were a sovereign
> state, like Hayti, and the others were not.
Once again, a matter of interpretation. _All_
Caribbean islands are considered sovereign
territory of the Republic. The difference lies
only in whether they are in rebellion or not.
> Granted, unlike Hayti, the
> Cruzan Islands were freely associated with the
> SR. Anyways, that's why "choice" is important.
>
> This makes me wonder... what about Hayti?
It will, in time, most likely be returned to
Hispañola. It is clear that Hayti is in no
position to become a Province on its own. It is
ruined, and it is still seething. It will be a
while before things calm down and reality sinks
in. It will be even longer before civilian
governance can take over.
> > > The probationary period of the condominium
> > > status must be discussed in
> > > more detail. How long is the period? What
> > > are the conditions of the probation?
> >
> > Ah. The probationary period is only to take
> > effect in Mobile (Florida del Occidente).
> -----<snip>-----
>
> That's unfair, as far as the Cruzans are
> concerned.
The Cruzan Iss. were not temporarily siezed as an
exigency of national defence! They are integral
territory of the Republic - Mobile is not.
I guess I didn't answer the question anyway:
The terms of the Mobile portion of the Plan are
to secure the cooperation of the NAL. Blunt,
perhaps, but that's the way of it. As a
concilatory offering, Bahamas and Jamaica are to
become condominium provinces with the NAL. Mobile
at the same time will become a temporary
condominium. If the NAL agrees to the Treaty
_and_ forgoes future hostilities in cooperation
with European powers, the condominium status will
end and Mobile will be returned to full NAL
sovereignty, and a rent will be paid. It will be
as if Florida never occupied that territroy. The
term is set for a period of six months from
acceptance of the Treaty. Both provinces may opt
out of the condominium after five years, thus
becomming normal Floridian provinces.
The actual condominium has provisions for
favoured trading status (reduced or no taxes for
businesses and importers), relaxed migration
rules (both in and out, and contrary to hype,
Florida-Caribbea is not a bad place to live in at
all!), conjoined military exercises, military and
civilian observer programmes (representatives
from Philadelphia can observe progress of the
Plan in Bahamas and Jamaica and make enforceable
recommendations to Miami), Bahamians and
Jamaicans will either gain or regain dual
citizenship, and can choose for themselves which
elections process to take part in (either the
American or the Floridian, but not both in an
elections cycle, except for local elections),
education and governance will continue in the
local languages (though, naturally, Castillian
will be taught as a second language in those
areas that are not already Spanish speaking) and
if that local language is not already so, it
shall become a fully legal language within the
Republic, and the list goes on. Largely the same
deal being offered to the Cruzan Iss. The main
exception is that the Cruzados are being allowed
a choice in the matter; while this solution is to
be implemented in the other territories as early
as 04.07.03.
[Aside: Obviously, it doesn't seem like a choice
to the Cruzados! But from the Floridian
perspective, the Cruzados are being allowed the
chance to go on living largely as they have for
the last 50 years if only they call themselves
"Floridians" in stead of "Scandinavians" (by
nation, not heritage); or, make a go of full
independence and face the might of the Floridian
armed forces, should the SR decide to butt in. I
might add that Jaime is most emphatically _NOT_
Jorge in this matter! Tejas was a push over;
Florida is a nother kettle of fish, as will be
seen shortly...]
As far as the two erstwhile NAL provinces go,
Bahamas are keen on the idea (though would prefer
to return to full NAL sovereignty); Jamaica is
much less keen, and as of now is thought to be
most likely to opt out of the condominium. Though
the economic advantages might sway them to stay
on for a while.
> -----<snip>-----
> > Ah yes. The original plan was to draw the
> > line at 65degW,
> That's better.
I'm sure it won't solve everything, but it is to
be hoped that concessions like these will put
some of the Cruzados' fears to rest.
> OK... it's much clearer now what Florida wants
> to do with the Cruzan
> Islands. I originally thought, when you
> mentioned "condominium"
> status, that Florida proposed the Cruzan
> Islands to become
> affiliated/associated with _both_ Florida and
> the SR while still keeping its sovereignty.
Ah, no. The Cruzans will become a province one
way or the other! The architects of the Plan hope
that they will in fact become a province that is
also in condominium with the SR.
But mind you, if they accept the Plan, the Cruzan
Iss. will be the _most_ independent Province
there is. Even the original Provinces don't enjoy
what the Cruzans are being offered!
> But looks like there is some truth to the
> concerns express by the protest demonstrations
> in Charlotte Amalie.
Yes. It is an unfortunate state of affairs.
> It's clear now that what Florida really wants
> is to reduce a sovereign
> state into a province/territory. Of course,
> that's acceptable only if
> the Cruzans themselves accept.
Personally, I hope they do. While there are many
in Florida who are agitating for war, just to
spite the Cruzados - you know, teach em a lesson;
many more would prefer that they come to the
decision on their own. They realise that the
Government has made a decision to encompass the
whole Caribbean, but would prefer a peaceful
solution at last after so many wars.
> Therefore, it's imperative that the
> Cruzan Constitution be respected,
And it probably will be. This Bush is not an
underhanded schemer at all. He has been convinced
to allow the Cruzados their say. What comes
_after_ that say...well, que será será! ;)
Any idea on when R-Day will take place?
Naturally, Congress has allotted monies for ad
campaigns and educational sessions. [And
undoubtedly, those warmongering Scandinavians
will be pouring their treasure into mudslinging
spindoctored propaganda blitzes!!! ;) ] Any
Cruzado who is willing will be brought to Miami
or any of the capitals to see how Floridian
government is _supposed_ to work. The President
himself would very much like to meet with the PM
and and MPs that would be willing.
****
And lastly: on the the Dalmatian Debacle!
Talk about a blow below the belt! Our good
friends in Dalmatia have shown their true
colours! Ybl talks a good line about nation
building and the fight for freedom; but can't see
that anyone else has that same right!
As a consequence, as of midnight, 02.07.03, all
Dalmatian assets in Florida will be seized
(cultural property, however, shall be returned as
soon as possible, i.e., the Dalmatian State
Orchestra); all goods in Floridian ports will be
seized; ships and airships will be impounded
(including the Raguza, currently on R&R in La
Habana - release of the crew pending); persons of
Dalmatian citizenship shall be deported to a
friendly, third party nation (Brasil); any entry
of Dalmatian registered vessels of war shall be
seen as an act of war; and because the Dalmatian
government sees fit to call our ministers liars,
the Dalmatian diplomatic corps shall be expelled,
pending satisfactory resolution of this incident.
Our allies in the region will decide their course
of action in the following days, though are not
expected to take _such_ a hardline stance.
As far as elections observers are concerned: what
do you take us for, some Mango Republic? Florida
will not allow foreigners into the sanctity of
the voting booth! The only observers allowed for
in the Plan are the usual local observers (i.e.,
Cruzan elections board officials), national
Floridian observers and Scandinavian obersvers.
The rest of you are welcome to butt out!
As far as the wonders of the Tesla Co. are
concerned - we can get parts from Germany (hell,
Canton, even!) on the cheap! :)
Padraic.
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 23:18:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Costentin Cornomorus wrote:
> And lastly: on the the Dalmatian Debacle!
>
> Talk about a blow below the belt! Our good
> friends in Dalmatia have shown their true
> colours! Ybl talks a good line about nation
> building and the fight for freedom; but can't
see
> that anyone else has that same right!
Not at the expense of the rights of other
nations! Since the establishment
of the Republic, Dalmatia has never fought a war
of aggression [note from
Ferko: some Serbs from the shortlived Republic of
Serb Kozara might
disagree...], but solely wars of self-defence
first against Ustasha
aggression, then against the aggression of the
Islamic Republic of Sanjak.
Our Prime Minister is en ethnic German, he fought
during the 44-47 civil
war on the side of the Dalmatian Freedom Front (a
union of Dalmatian
nationalistic groups, both anti-Danubian,
anti-Ustasha and
anti-Communist). Dalmatia has always been on the
side of the oppressed
peoples of the world [note: Biafrans might
disagree]. The Slovenian
Government has taken refuge in Dalmatia until the
day of the liberation of
Slovenia from Ustasha oppression arrives.
On Radio Bosna there was a talkshow tonight.
(Bosna being the region along
the Bosna river between Zenica and Czieta da
Saray, home of 90% of the
Bosniaks [Dalmatian Muslims]; in the Saray Canton
the MP is a
member of the governing Social Credit party, in
the Zenica Canton the MP
is a member of the Dalmatian Radical Party, which
formed the first
post-independence government). A call-in show was
held as is held every
night, this evening the subject was the Cruzan
Islands. Some interesting
quotes from callers:
Semsa Spahicz from Esczelza: "Why do we all of a
sudden give a damn about
events in the Americas? We have more pressing
matters to attend to here at
home to waste time bothering with those backward
colonial types. Like why
it costs me 2 xenari for a pack of smokes when I
make 3 xenari an hour!"
Fatma Muharemeska from Zavidovicz: "I agree with
the decision to
renationalise properties owned by Floridians. In
fact I think everything
owned by foreigners should be taken back, and all
the foreigners expelled
from the country."
Nikolu Yonesku from Pontul da Ali Pasza (Czieta
da Saray Ward 17): "I
don't know. On the one hand I agree with the
previous caller who said we
have more pressing matters to attend to here at
home. But, I don't think
we can restrict ourselves to domestic affairs. As
a former colonial power
we have a status in the world which we have to
maintain. Part of this
includes helping out nations that need help
defending themselves from
aggression."
Izudin Huseynesku from Ilixha: "If one of the
Dalmatophone countries is
Africa is attacked, our troops are almost
immediately there to defend them
- this is true now, this was true in the KeSeSeDe
[note: KeSeSeDe is the
common name of the CSDS in Dalmatian - KSSD], it
was true even before that
in the days of the first Danubia, and certainly
it was true in the days
under the eszdragei [=the Austrians, in
colloquial speech]. These
Islands, Cruzan, right? Well, they're
Scandinavian. Let the Scandinavians
go and blast the miarda out of the Floridans like
we smashed the Mongols
[note: common term for Chinese] when they
attacked Kongo."
Serxhan Dalmicz from Zenica: "I agree with the
previous caller. That Bush
is just a Paya Patka [*here*, the Yugoslav name
of Donald Duck. *There*, a
Dalmatian cartoon character, whose name is used
like Mickey Mouse is
*here*] Pavelic - eh, not even Pavelic, Tudjman.
He's just an uppity Paya
Patka colonial type who needs a swift kick in the
arse. All those islands
they've occupied all deserve independence. If we
don't help them but let
them be dominated by Bush, then why did we leave
the KeSeSeDe? Why didn't
we stay and be oppressed by the Ustashe? We've
spent all this money on our
new jets and long range rockets, well, let's use
them. Send the Red Berets
into Florida like we sent them into Kozara and
Sanjak, then we'll see if
they want to annoy us!"
The radio show's host's comments at the
conclusion of the show, after
Serxhan Dalmicz finished speaking. "Well, that
guy must be a member of the
Rads *chuckle*. But overall it would seem that
the large majority of our
listeners and callers are in favour of the
actions which have been taken
against Florida. Some are even calling for more
drastic measures. My
personal opinion - not that of Radio Bosna - is
that the intent behind the
actions was noble, but I think it could have been
dealt with better,
perhaps with discussions with Florida first, at
the head-of-state level.
As it stands, Ybl's action reminds me of someone
from our past, our
Batyushka [=Lenin. Batyushka means something
like, uncle, in Russian. In
children's books and songs Lenin was referred to
as Batyushka Lenin -
Uncle Lenin.] Never was one to mull things over,
just acted straight away.
Such things can be and usually are dangerous.
With that, I bid you good
evening, enjoy our coverage of the second leg of
the Dalmatian Cup final
which follows immediately, Dinamo Agram against
Czelik Zenica at Kampa da
Bila in Zenica and a clean sheet - the first leg
ended with a 0:0 score."
>
> As a consequence, as of midnight, 02.07.03, all
> Dalmatian assets in Florida will be seized
> (cultural property, however, shall be returned
as
> soon as possible, i.e., the Dalmatian State
> Orchestra); all goods in Floridian ports will
be
> seized; ships and airships will be impounded
> (including the Raguza, currently on R&R in La
> Habana - release of the crew pending); persons
of
> Dalmatian citizenship shall be deported to a
> friendly, third party nation (Brasil); any
entry
> of Dalmatian registered vessels of war shall be
> seen as an act of war; and because the
Dalmatian
> government sees fit to call our ministers
liars,
> the Dalmatian diplomatic corps shall be
expelled,
> pending satisfactory resolution of this
incident.
In response, all measures which exceed those
which have been taken by
Dalmatia will now be taken by Dalmatia, including
the expulsion of the
Floridian diplomatic corps. All Floridian
citizens will be taken to the
nearest border. {note: and left there and not
permitted reentry to
Dalmatia. God be with those taken to the Sanjaki
and Croatian borders.
Albania will let them in without difficulty, so
will Bulgaria. The Serbs
will likely let them in too, but charging
exorbitant fees for visas -
which by law are free, but due to the low wages
paid border guards in
Serbia, everyone overlooks this law to their
personal gain.}
>
> Our allies in the region will decide their
course
> of action in the following days, though are not
> expected to take _such_ a hardline stance.
Dalmatia has been around for over a thousand
years. Certainly our
existence does not depend on a few Mango
Republics. History is on our
side.
>
> As far as elections observers are concerned:
what
> do you take us for, some Mango Republic?
Florida
Unofficially: yes.
> will not allow foreigners into the sanctity of
> the voting booth! The only observers allowed
for
> in the Plan are the usual local observers
(i.e.,
> Cruzan elections board officials), national
> Floridian observers and Scandinavian obersvers.
> The rest of you are welcome to butt out!
In such case, the results of the elections, if
not in favour of Cruzan
independence, will be viewed as rigged by the
rest of the world...
>
> As far as the wonders of the Tesla Co. are
> concerned - we can get parts from Germany
(hell,
> Canton, even!) on the cheap! :)
The embargo extends also to goods made under
license from Dalmatian
patents - thus it is within the authority of the
MFAIT to seize German and
Cantonese licensed reproductions of Tesla Co.
technology bound for
Florida. (perhaps the carrier Aurial Vlaiku and
her battle group will head
for the Atlantic...?)
>
> [AsideAnd where the bloody hell were you when
> poor Cornouaille was about to rise up against
the
> mighty French oppressor!!?? They could have
used
> some Dalmatian support? But what do they get?
> Nada!! ;) ]
When was this? Besides, Dalmatia still owes a big
debt to France for
supplying arms during the last Balkan War...
----ferko
Ferenc Gy. Valoczy
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:40:24 +0200
Subject: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: "Costentin Cornomorus" <elemtilas@yahoo.com>
Til: <conculture@yahoogroups.com>
Sendt: 3. juli 2003 05:24
Emne: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars
down, one to go? + How
close are we, really?
> --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
-----<snip>-----
> > So the current debate in the islands
> > evolves around the question of how free the
> > Cruzans will be under Floridan dominance.
>
> This will largely depend on how sensible the
> Cruzados show themselves to be over the next
> weeks. The Floridian Government has espressed
no
> official opinion on the matter, but the Press
has
> said in no uncertain terms that the
"referendum"
> will in reality be a vote on whether the Cruzan
> Iss. should become a newly honoured Province of
> the Presidency, or be reduced to a military
> territory.
>
> The question then would seem to be: do the
> Cruzados desire to accept terms and the
liberties
> enjoyed by Floridian citizens; or do they wish
to
> subjugate themselves to military dictatorship?
If the choice were down to only those two, then
the former option
would be an obvious choice. But a referendum
offers a third, more
desirable, option: Cruzan sovereignty.
> > Apparently (from what I read below), the
Cruzan
> > Islands have under Floridan occupation been
> > ruled as personal fiefdoms of senior
> > Congressmen with utter disregard for the
Cruzan
> > Constitution.
>
> Depends on the Congressman that has controlled
> the islands. The first was a terror (and as you
> say later about first impressions...); recent
> decades have seen laisez faire rulers who have
> been content to take a cut of territorial funds
> and let the Parliament do as it will. The
current
> incumbent, one Alonso Rivera, has been the
> strongest support _for_ Cruzado rights since
the
> indpendence movement of the 1930s.
>
> As one of the architechts of the Plan, you can
> thank him for the fact that Charlotte Amalie is
> not in ruins as is Port au Prince, and that
> military presence has been minimal.
I'm sure many Cruzans appreciate this, and they
urge Alonso Rivera to
support a referendum. Others, however, have
expressed that he'll never
support such a referendum.
> > First impressions last, I'm afraid. Most
> > Cruzans are sceptical of the
> > plan.
>
> I suppose that's to be expected - but they
really
> don't have a choice in the matter.
Yes... through a referendum.
> > Protest demonstrations against the peace
> > plan are right now
> > being held in Frihetpark (Emancipation Park)
> > outside Die Groenhus
> > ("The Green House", which is the Cruzan
> > parliamentary building) in
> > Charlotte Amalie. The people haven't
forgotten
> > that Florida robbed the
> > Cruzans of their sovereignty in '46 without
> > asking first,
>
> That's a matter of debate! Rather: The War of
> Liberation (1898) set in motion great events in
> the Caribbean basin. The first leaders of the
new
> Republic saw as their vision a great and free
> nation of all Caribbian peoples; and set forth
to
> make that vision reality. Those that they could
> find willing to join up were welcommed; others
> they cajolled or bought. Some were resistant -
> those need to be swept aside.
...and robbed of their sovereignty.
> > and there
> > are serious doubts that Florida will take any
> > referendum over Cruzan sovereignty seriously.
>
> To the contrary: the Congress is awaiting
> developments in Charlotte Amalie with great
> interest!
What I meant was that Florida will not respect
the result of the
referendum if it turns out to be not to their
liking.
> It is true that Florida does not wish
> to wage a war with a power such as the SR (and
it
> has long understood the SR to have little
> interest in the Cruzan Iss); but their own
> notions of nationhood and Destino Castellano
will
> not likely be deterred.
...and the SR is not interested either in waging
a war that is near
impossible to win in the long run if Florida
sticks to her notions of
nationhood and Destino Castellano.
-----<snip>-----
> > > Naturally, local governance will have to
come
> > > from the Cruzados themselves; just like any
> > other
> > > province. Matters of defense, international
> > > diplomacy and the like will come from the
> > > appropriate capital (either Miami or La
> > > Habana);
> >
> > Or Gjøteborg or DVC ("Det Vestindisk-Guinea
> > Compagnie" - which is the
> > Guinea-Westindian naval fleet of the SR).
>
> Mm. That will not be acceptable! Gjoteborg is
not
> a capital of the Presidency of Florida; its
> government was not duly constituted according
to
> national Law.
>
> While there are things that the condominium
> status would allow to come from Gjoteburg,
> defence and foreign policy are not two of them.
Oh OK. Fair enough. But the referendum has to be
respected.
-----<snip>-----
> > In other words, a loss of Cruzan sovereignty.
>
> As an "independent" country, yes. Of course,
> that's something that has not been reality
since
> 1946...
But both the SR government and the Cruzan
government-in-exile has
never recognize the annexation of the Cruzan
Islands to Florida. So it
has always considered the Cruzan Islands as
independent with an exiled
government.
> > That's a hard sell to
> > the Cruzans. They were, afterall, a sovereign
> > state in personal union
> > and free association with the SR. But the
> > Floridan plan wants to
> > reduce the Cruzan state to nothing more than
a
> > province.
>
> There is one Republic! And one Government
> encompassed it!
That's understood. But can't it be such that the
annexed territories
are in free association with the Republic should
they decide it to be
so in a referendum?
-----<snip>-----
> > > A mere formality, however.
> >
> > No... This is a serious. It has to be
> > respected.
>
> Oo. While I personally agree, Florida does not
> see it this way. The Cruzans are teetering on
the
> border of a state of rebellion. Florida's
> nationalsit ideals do not (and have never)
gotten
> along well with powerful regions - to say
nothing
> of (semi)independent ones. I fear that the Plan
> will not reach its fullness, and that
hostilities
> between the SR and Florida may be unavoidable.
I'm afraid so. <sigh> So close, yet so far.
-----<snip>-----
> > > While the de facto annexation of the
Cruzans
> > > in
> > > 1946 is immutable; such a vote would not be
> > > disallowed, and could be considered
> > cathartic.
> >
> > The SR and Cruzan governments disagree
> > entirely. It'll have to be
> > mutable should the Cruzans decide it to be so
> > in a referendum.
>
> As the Governor of San Juan said this week: "If
> they should vote _no_ in their referendum, they
> should prepare to drag their islands back to
> Scandinavia."
Not physically possible, of course.
> > The
> > referendum should not be considered a
purgative
> > act at all. The result
> > should be binding and respected by Florida.
>
> You ask a sovereign nation to allow the
excision
> of an integral part of its whole!
SR and Cruzan position is that the Cruzan Islands
were never an
integral part of Florida, but an occupied part.
-----<snip>-----
> > It's important to have the consent of the
> > Cruzan Government, unless
> > you want to insult them. Remember, it's a
> > sovereign state.
>
> Was. In 1946.
Still is. The exiled government, that is.
> It has long led a coddled, half
> vanquished existence for half a century. Also
> from San Juan this week: "They ought to have
been
> dealt with sternly in the 1940s. We wouldn't be
> having all these protests now had the
Government
> clamped down on them from the first." I suppose
> it is the fault of the Government for allowing
> the Cruzados to maintain the idea they were
not,
> in fact, Antilleanos! ;)
Oh they're Antilleaners, alright. Just no
Antilleanos. ;)
-----<snip>-----
> [Aside: Obviously, it doesn't seem like a
choice
> to the Cruzados! But from the Floridian
> perspective, the Cruzados are being allowed the
> chance to go on living largely as they have for
> the last 50 years if only they call themselves
> "Floridians" in stead of "Scandinavians" (by
> nation, not heritage); or, make a go of full
> independence and face the might of the
Floridian
> armed forces, should the SR decide to butt in.
I
> might add that Jaime is most emphatically _NOT_
> Jorge in this matter! Tejas was a push over;
> Florida is a nother kettle of fish, as will be
> seen shortly...]
Blackmail is what it sounds like. This is the
core of the problem. The
SR and the Cruzados want Florida to respect a
referendum over Cruzan
sovereignty. "Respect" means that should the
Cruzans decide in favor
of full independence, then Florida cannot use its
military forces upon
the islands.
-----<snip>-----
> > OK... it's much clearer now what Florida
wants
> > to do with the Cruzan
> > Islands. I originally thought, when you
> > mentioned "condominium"
> > status, that Florida proposed the Cruzan
> > Islands to become
> > affiliated/associated with _both_ Florida and
> > the SR while still keeping its sovereignty.
>
> Ah, no. The Cruzans will become a province one
> way or the other! The architects of the Plan
hope
> that they will in fact become a province that
is
> also in condominium with the SR.
Yes, I understand now.
> But mind you, if they accept the Plan, the
Cruzan
> Iss. will be the _most_ independent Province
> there is. Even the original Provinces don't
enjoy
> what the Cruzans are being offered!
How so?
-----<snip>-----
> > It's clear now that what Florida really wants
> > is to reduce a sovereign
> > state into a province/territory. Of course,
> > that's acceptable only if
> > the Cruzans themselves accept.
>
> Personally, I hope they do. While there are
many
> in Florida who are agitating for war, just to
> spite the Cruzados - you know, teach em a
lesson;
> many more would prefer that they come to the
> decision on their own. They realise that the
> Government has made a decision to encompass the
> whole Caribbean, but would prefer a peaceful
> solution at last after so many wars.
I'm also sure that many Cruzans and Scandinavians
want a peaceful
solution too. Many are hoping, despite Florida's
reputation to the
contrary, that Florida will respect the results
of the referendum and
leave the Cruzan Islands alone should it be
decided that the Cruzans
be independent.
But it does not help the Floridian case that they
are basically
blackmailing the Cruzans to surrender their
sovereignty. Many say that
the Cruzans and the SR ought to give in to the
blackmail for the sake
of peace. But after learning more about the
Floridian Plan, many more
now feel disgusted by the Floridian blackmail,
and I'm sure there are
quite a few Cruzans who, knowing they have the SR
as their guaranteur,
are agitating war just to spite the Floridians -
y'know teach them a
lesson.
> > Therefore, it's imperative that the
> > Cruzan Constitution be respected,
>
> And it probably will be. This Bush is not an
> underhanded schemer at all. He has been
convinced
> to allow the Cruzados their say. What comes
> _after_ that say...well, que será será! ;)
It's blackmail, I say, blackmail!
> Any idea on when R-Day will take place?
How's the end of the month sound? That should be
sufficient time for
campaigning.
> Naturally, Congress has allotted monies for ad
> campaigns and educational sessions. [And
> undoubtedly, those warmongering Scandinavians
> will be pouring their treasure into mudslinging
> spindoctored propaganda blitzes!!! ;) ] Any
> Cruzado who is willing will be brought to Miami
> or any of the capitals to see how Floridian
> government is _supposed_ to work. The President
> himself would very much like to meet with the
PM
> and and MPs that would be willing.
The Cruzan PM is already in Miami together with
the SR Foreign
Minister. They were part of the delegation sent
to Miami to disguss
the Floridian Plan.
-kristian-
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
--- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
> -----<snip>-----
> > The question then would seem to be: do the
> > Cruzados desire to accept terms and the
> > liberties
> > enjoyed by Floridian citizens; or do they
> > wish to subjugate themselves to military
> > dictatorship?
>
> If the choice were down to only those two, then
> the former option
> would be an obvious choice. But a referendum
> offers a third, more desirable, option: Cruzan
> sovereignty.
Which, in the current Floridian understanding is
one and the same thing. That is, they don't
recognise the possibility of the Cruzans choosing
_and_keeping_ independence.
[snip]
> I'm sure many Cruzans appreciate this, and they
> urge Alonso Rivera to
> support a referendum. Others, however, have
> expressed that he'll never
> support such a referendum.
Why wouldn't he? It was his idea! He seems to be
pretty sure that _most_ average Cruzados would
prefer the stability of the status quo rather
than the uncertainty of the alternative. It's a
gamble, to be sure.
> ...and the SR is not interested either in
> waging a war that is near
> impossible to win in the long run if Florida
> sticks to her notions of
> nationhood and Destino Castellano.
It's kind of built into the national psyche.
> -----<snip>-----
> > > That's a hard sell to
> > > the Cruzans. They were, afterall, a
> sovereign
> > > state in personal union
> > > and free association with the SR. But the
> > > Floridan plan wants to
> > > reduce the Cruzan state to nothing more
> than a
> > > province.
> >
> > There is one Republic! And one Government
> > encompassed it!
>
> That's understood. But can't it be such that
> the annexed territories
> are in free association with the Republic
> should they decide it to be so in a referendum?
I think there must be a cultural misunderstanding
on this point. To be quite blunt, there is
nothing in the Floridian / Spanish experience
that has prepared them for this impasse. They
don't understand what you (the Cruzados) really
mean by this. Nor do they really understand what
condominiums are all about, I think. It seems to
me that they went a little far in their offer - I
mean, for all pracitcal purposes, a post-Plan
Bahamian will be a NAL citizen in everything but
name. That's quite a bit more than most
condominium citizens experience. Likewise, a
post-Plan Cruzado could choose to be a Floridian
_only_ in name. Every other aspect of life could
remain the same.
_Hopefully_ the Cruzan PM will explain this to
Bush so that the best solution can be achieved. I
think that Florida truly fears losing its own
national sovereignty - but it may well be that
the Cruzan position is much more innocuous than
is commonly believed.
> -----<snip>-----
> > You ask a sovereign nation to allow the
> > excision of an integral part of its whole!
>
> SR and Cruzan position is that the Cruzan
> Islands were never an
> integral part of Florida, but an occupied part.
:)
> -----<snip>-----
> > > It's important to have the consent of the
> > > Cruzan Government, unless
> > > you want to insult them. Remember, it's a
> > > sovereign state.
> >
> > Was. In 1946.
>
> Still is. The exiled government, that is.
Little different than a mail order passport
issing organisation! ;)
> Oh they're Antilleaners, alright. Just no
> Antilleanos. ;)
:)
> -----<snip>-----
> > [Aside: Obviously, it doesn't seem like a
> choice
> > to the Cruzados! But from the Floridian
> > perspective, the Cruzados are being allowed
> the
> > chance to go on living largely as they have
> for
> > the last 50 years if only they call
> themselves
> > "Floridians" in stead of "Scandinavians" (by
> > nation, not heritage); or, make a go of full
> > independence and face the might of the
> Floridian
> > armed forces, should the SR decide to butt
> in. I
> > might add that Jaime is most emphatically
> _NOT_
> > Jorge in this matter! Tejas was a push over;
> > Florida is a nother kettle of fish, as will
> be
> > seen shortly...]
>
> Blackmail is what it sounds like.
Once again, this is probably a cultural
misunderstanding. Floridian jurisprudence would
understand "Blackmail" as a threat in order to
gain support for something; this is simply a
statement of fact.
> This is the core of the problem. The
> SR and the Cruzados want Florida to respect a
> referendum over Cruzan
> sovereignty. "Respect" means that should the
> Cruzans decide in favor
> of full independence, then Florida cannot use
> its military forces upon the islands.
I think issues of "Cruzan sovereignty" and SR
activities in the Cruzans would need to be worked
on.
There might be some wiggle room _if_ the Cruzans
opted for independence but accepted Floridian
defence. And if the SR were allowed to post
military units to the islands, Florida would at
least require a base and an observer programme. I
mean, they would have Floridian defence anyway:
they're surrounded by Floridian waters after all!
> -----<snip>-----
> > But mind you, if they accept the Plan, the
> Cruzan
> > Iss. will be the _most_ independent Province
> > there is. Even the original Provinces don't
> > enjoy what the Cruzans are being offered!
>
> How so?
Well, no other citizens are able to obtain dual
citizenship; migration is somewhat restricted
(the Cruzans, as a condo with the SR, would allow
unrestricted movement between the two lands);
businesses must conform to the usual strictures
placed on international trade; etc.
> -----<snip>-----
> I'm also sure that many Cruzans and
> Scandinavians want a peaceful
> solution too. Many are hoping, despite
> Florida's reputation to the
> contrary, that Florida will respect the results
> of the referendum and
> leave the Cruzan Islands alone should it be
> decided that the Cruzans be independent.
>
> But it does not help the Floridian case that
> they are basically
> blackmailing the Cruzans to surrender their
> sovereignty.
I hardly think it blackmail! As if half a century
of annexation and military presence hasn't been
hint enough!
> Many say that
> the Cruzans and the SR ought to give in to the
> blackmail for the sake
> of peace. But after learning more about the
> Floridian Plan, many more
> now feel disgusted by the Floridian blackmail,
Hm. That could be a problem. I guess the more
moderate wing of Government will simply have to
push harder to get Bush to plainly accept
whatever the Cruzados decide.
> and I'm sure there are
> quite a few Cruzans who, knowing they have the
> SR as their guaranteur,
> are agitating war just to spite the Floridians
> - y'know teach them a lesson.
Quite! But, a lesson at what price?
> > Any idea on when R-Day will take place?
>
> How's the end of the month sound? That should
> be sufficient time for campaigning.
Sounds good. It will give the Cruzados a month to
see how well the Bahamians like their new status.
Look out for the Convocación de la República
tomorrow at noon on Telenovial: the newly elected
Governors of Bahamas and Jamaica receive their
chains of office and the new Senators take their
seats in the Congress as well.
The NAL, at least, seems mollified by the Plan.
As for England and Kemr - they're clearly still
up for the Grand Coalition with the SR, should
things go awry. And even if they don't, they may
well decide to go in anyway and try to wrest
their colonies back.
> The Cruzan PM is already in Miami together with
> the SR Foreign
> Minister. They were part of the delegation sent
> to Miami to disguss the Floridian Plan.
Excellent! Hopefully, they can explain in simple
terms their understanding of things! [I wouldn't
mind being privy to _that_ meeting...]
Padraic.
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:41:22 +0200
Subject: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
----- Oprindelig meddelelse -----
Fra: "Costentin Cornomorus" <elemtilas@yahoo.com>
Til: <conculture@yahoogroups.com>
Sendt: 3. juli 2003 23:15
Emne: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two
wars down, one to go? +
How close are we, really?
> --- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
>
> > -----<snip>-----
> > > The question then would seem to be: do the
> > > Cruzados desire to accept terms and the
> > > liberties
> > > enjoyed by Floridian citizens; or do they
> > > wish to subjugate themselves to military
> > > dictatorship?
> >
> > If the choice were down to only those two,
then
> > the former option
> > would be an obvious choice. But a referendum
> > offers a third, more desirable, option:
Cruzan
> > sovereignty.
>
> Which, in the current Floridian understanding
is
> one and the same thing. That is, they don't
> recognise the possibility of the Cruzans
choosing
> _and_keeping_ independence.
Wierdness!
> [snip]
>
> > I'm sure many Cruzans appreciate this, and
they
> > urge Alonso Rivera to
> > support a referendum. Others, however, have
> > expressed that he'll never
> > support such a referendum.
>
> Why wouldn't he? It was his idea!
Ooops, I'm sorry. I phrased that wrongly. Rivera
does indeed support
it. That's clear. What I meant to say was that
many Cruzans urge him
to _respect_ the results of the referendum, while
some say that he
won't.
> He seems to be
> pretty sure that _most_ average Cruzados would
> prefer the stability of the status quo rather
> than the uncertainty of the alternative. It's a
> gamble, to be sure.
For sure!
> > ...and the SR is not interested either in
> > waging a war that is near
> > impossible to win in the long run if Florida
> > sticks to her notions of
> > nationhood and Destino Castellano.
>
> It's kind of built into the national psyche.
...making it all the more difficult to pursuade
them of anything
contrary to their doctrine.
-----<snip>-----
> > > There is one Republic! And one Government
> > > encompassed it!
> >
> > That's understood. But can't it be such that
> > the annexed territories
> > are in free association with the Republic
> > should they decide it to be so in a
referendum?
>
> I think there must be a cultural
misunderstanding
> on this point.
I'm thinking the same thing...
> To be quite blunt, there is
> nothing in the Floridian / Spanish experience
> that has prepared them for this impasse. They
> don't understand what you (the Cruzados) really
> mean by this.
Really? No "Estado Associado Libre" (like Puerto
Rico and Cuba
*here*)?
> Nor do they really understand what
> condominiums are all about, I think. It seems
to
> me that they went a little far in their offer -
I
> mean, for all pracitcal purposes, a post-Plan
> Bahamian will be a NAL citizen in everything
but
> name. That's quite a bit more than most
> condominium citizens experience. Likewise, a
> post-Plan Cruzado could choose to be a
Floridian
> _only_ in name. Every other aspect of life
could
> remain the same.
>
> _Hopefully_ the Cruzan PM will explain this to
> Bush so that the best solution can be achieved.
I
> think that Florida truly fears losing its own
> national sovereignty - but it may well be that
> the Cruzan position is much more innocuous than
> is commonly believed.
Well, it might depend on the eyes that see. But
it's completely
innocent as far as the Cruzans and the SR are
concerned. All that is
desired is Cruzan independence and for Florida to
recognize this. All
other territorial claims in the region are not
the concern of the
Cruzans nor the SR. Florida can do with the
region what it sees fit as
long as the Cruzans are left alone as an
independent sovereign state.
So if Florida were to recognize Cruzan
independence, then there would
still be a Florida as far as the Cruzans and the
SR are concerned.
Florida need not fear losing its national
sovereignty.
-----<snip>-----
> > Blackmail is what it sounds like.
>
> Once again, this is probably a cultural
> misunderstanding. Floridian jurisprudence would
> understand "Blackmail" as a threat in order to
> gain support for something; this is simply a
> statement of fact.
That's a corrupted definition. Blackmail is the
same as "to coerce
into a particular action". Florida is threatening
military action if
the Cruzans vote to be independent, but offering
peace if Cruzans vote
to become part of Florida. Hence, they're
threating military action in
order to coerce the Cruzans into voting against
independence.
> > This is the core of the problem. The
> > SR and the Cruzados want Florida to respect a
> > referendum over Cruzan
> > sovereignty. "Respect" means that should the
> > Cruzans decide in favor
> > of full independence, then Florida cannot use
> > its military forces upon the islands.
>
> I think issues of "Cruzan sovereignty" and SR
> activities in the Cruzans would need to be
worked
> on.
See below.
> There might be some wiggle room _if_ the
Cruzans
> opted for independence but accepted Floridian
> defence. And if the SR were allowed to post
> military units to the islands, Florida would at
> least require a base and an observer programme.
I
> mean, they would have Floridian defence anyway:
> they're surrounded by Floridian waters after
all!
More specifically, Cruzan waters is surrounded by
Floridian waters.
Anyways, that's certainly doable! In fact, that's
an excellent option!
This would allow for the recognition of Cruzan
independence by Florida
(should the results of the referendum be in that
favor), to the
satisfaction of both the Cruzans and the SR.
Given the geographical facts and if Cruzan
independence were
recognized, then Florida would be most welcome to
help defend the
Cruzans together with the SR. In fact, this is
what I originally
thought was meant by condominium status. Because,
since the SR
recognizes the Cruzan Islands as an independent
state in free
association with the SR, then for Florida to
offer condominium status
would mean joint defence and guarantorship with
the SR of Cruzan
independence. So basically, I thought
"condominium" status meant that
the Cruzan Islands would be in free association
with both the SR and
the Florida. Strictly speaking, this isn't really
a condominium in the
traditional sense. It's more of a joint
guarantorship of Cruzan
independence. This would be completely acceptable
to the SR, but the
Cruzans themselves would have to put it through a
referendum because
the Cruzan Constitution requires all issues
concerning a change in
sovereignty to be put through a referendum. But
at least this would be
much more acceptable to Cruzans than becoming a
Floridian territory or
province.
If accepted, then further details of this joint
association needs to
be worked out. For instance, the currency.
Florida already expressed
the intention to replace the local currency with
Floridian currency.
Chances are quite good that the Cruzans will vote
in favor in the
change in currency should it be put through a
referendum (as required
in the constitution). It's simply more practical.
Another issue that need to be addressed for joint
association is the
question of who would be the Cruzan head of
state. As it is now, the
Cruzan constitution recognizes the Queen in
Copenhagen as head of
state. Should Florida want this changed, then
this too should be put
through a referendum since it would also be a
change-in-sovereignty
issue. Chances are not good that this will
change.
> > -----<snip>-----
> > > But mind you, if they accept the Plan, the
> > Cruzan
> > > Iss. will be the _most_ independent
Province
> > > there is. Even the original Provinces don't
> > > enjoy what the Cruzans are being offered!
> >
> > How so?
>
> Well, no other citizens are able to obtain dual
> citizenship; migration is somewhat restricted
> (the Cruzans, as a condo with the SR, would
allow
> unrestricted movement between the two lands);
> businesses must conform to the usual strictures
> placed on international trade; etc.
Cruzan independence would mean that the Cruzans
would have their own
citizenship - their own passport. But, if it were
in free association
with both the SR and Florida, then Cruzan
citizenship should entitle
Cruzans to freely enter and exit Florida and all
SR countries.
-----<snip>-----
> > and I'm sure there are
> > quite a few Cruzans who, knowing they have
the
> > SR as their guaranteur,
> > are agitating war just to spite the
Floridians
> > - y'know teach them a lesson.
>
> Quite! But, a lesson at what price?
I know what you mean. It's an
emotional/heat-of-the-moment kind of
phase, I'm sure. After heads are cooled off, I'm
sure that Cruzans and
Scandinavians will be more moderate in their
expressions. Not everyone
are diplomats, and certainly not many of the
average borger in the
street.
> > > Any idea on when R-Day will take place?
> >
> > How's the end of the month sound? That should
> > be sufficient time for campaigning.
>
> Sounds good. It will give the Cruzados a month
to
> see how well the Bahamians like their new
status.
> Look out for the Convocación de la República
> tomorrow at noon on Telenovial: the newly
elected
> Governors of Bahamas and Jamaica receive their
> chains of office and the new Senators take
their
> seats in the Congress as well.
Mind you, the Cruzan Constitution requires a 75%
majority from an at
least 50% voter turnout for any changes in
sovereignty to take effect.
> The NAL, at least, seems mollified by the Plan.
Good for them, and good for Florida.
...and if Florida were to recognize Cruzan
independence, then the SR
would be mollified as well. Florida would only
have to worry about
England and Kemr, and a potential Grand Coalition
_without_ the SR
involved! In fact, the SR would be in place to
defend the area within
Cruzan territorial waters and airspace - no
matter how small it may be
;).
> As for England and Kemr - they're clearly still
> up for the Grand Coalition with the SR, should
> things go awry. And even if they don't, they
may
> well decide to go in anyway and try to wrest
> their colonies back.
The SR sees the idea of the Grand Coalition is a
bit short sighted,
I'm afraid. I mean, what's to be done afterwards?
The Floridians have,
afterall, a national psyche dictated by Destino
Castellano. So the
Grand Coalition would only be an absolutely last
resort, as far as the
SR is concerned.
> > The Cruzan PM is already in Miami together
with
> > the SR Foreign
> > Minister. They were part of the delegation
sent
> > to Miami to disguss the Floridian Plan.
>
> Excellent! Hopefully, they can explain in
simple
> terms their understanding of things! [I
wouldn't
> mind being privy to _that_ meeting...]
Well, I hope I have explained things a bit
clearer in this post. I'm
not a political scientist, I'm afraid.
-kristian
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 07:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [conculture] Dalmatian Debacle + Two wars down, one to go? + How close are we, really?
--- Kristian Jensen <kljensen@image.dk> wrote:
> > > ...and the SR is not interested either in
> > > waging a war that is near
> > > impossible to win in the long run if
> Florida
> > > sticks to her notions of
> > > nationhood and Destino Castellano.
> >
> > It's kind of built into the national psyche.
>
> ...making it all the more difficult to pursuade
> them of anything contrary to their doctrine.
Aye. You sort of have to push the right button.
If a way can be found to at least make Florida
think that it has a stake in the Cruzans, then
they'd undoubtedly change their tune.
> -----<snip>-----
> > > > There is one Republic! And one Government
> > > > encompassed it!
> > >
> > > That's understood. But can't it be such
> that
> > > the annexed territories
> > > are in free association with the Republic
> > > should they decide it to be so in a
> referendum?
> >
> > I think there must be a cultural
> misunderstanding
> > on this point.
>
> I'm thinking the same thing...
>
> > To be quite blunt, there is
> > nothing in the Floridian / Spanish experience
> > that has prepared them for this impasse. They
> > don't unders