Talk:Greece

How can I?

How can I make a think like this

for Greece?

Misterxeight 17:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I can make one for you, but I'll need to know the constituent parts of the Hellene State. Zahir 03:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Right let's see I haven't done this in awhile

• Attiki
• Thessaloniki
• Central Greece
• West Makedonia
• Crete

Ooh I'm a little rusty at this. Let me check the rest of Greece's peripheries. Misterxeight 17:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

And feel free to subdivide it differently from the real Greece. And what should the template call them? Provinces? Regions? Benkarnell 18:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Peripheries. And all the territories in there are not permanent, just in case 2 other colonies are excepted, they can take their place. Misterxeight 18:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia...

What is Greece's view on Macedonia (currently "occupied" by Bulgaria)? I have it established that the Kingdom of Macedonia was recognized by Greece, and is even housing the Macedonian royal family at Thessaloniki, but, seeing the now radical shift in government, I am curios as to what the new Greek government's stance on the their cousins to the north being under "Bulgar occupation." Seth 04:04, 13 july 2008

The best I can give you is Macedonia becomes part of Greece and they get equal rights. OR a protectorate. Misterxeight 20:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• sags a bit* Are we even certain there's any sort of "Macedonian question" *there*? I mean, there are no people in the Vardar region who call themselves Macedonian; they're all Bulgarians, apart from the Serbs and other minorities. If it's just a territorial thing, then it's fine, but I don't see it being much like *here*'s situation at all. Dalmatinac 21:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Uniforms

I was thinking a blend of

this

Emperor

*Numbering of kings in Greece are according to Byzantine chronology. Thus, the first modern Greek Constantine is known as Constantine XII because the last Byzantine Emperor was Constantine XI.

So does this mean the current/new Emperor should be Constantine XIV? Zahir 15:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually I'm thinking of making C.'s dad who is Constantine XII should have done the 10 year reforms, so he could have done this as late at the 70s, so this gives us plenty of time for all the reforms. However, a lot of stuff will have to be redone. Misterxeight 22:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Oldenburgs

Okay, I'm trying to figure out the ages of the Oldenburg Kings of Greece. Here is what the article says:

   * George I (1863-1913) (son of Archking Christian IX of the Scandinavian Realm)
   * Constantine XII* (first reign) (1913-1917)
   * Alexander IV (1917-1920)
   * Constantine XII (second reign) (1920-1922)
   * George II (1922-1947)
   * Paul I (1947-1964)
   * Constantine XIII (1964-2000) 

Now, are these dates referring to the respective reigns or to their lives? In the case of George I, he seems to have been born in the same year as Christian IX was in *our* history, which seems odd because that man is supposed to be George's father. So I don't know how to read this. I'm asking because I am in search of an appropriate mother for Muntenia's Queen Elena I. Zahir 18:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well all the stuff my C8 did, his dad C7 will do, making Alexandra his stepmom. He could marry Elena.

Misterxeight 19:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No offense but I'm looking for Elena's mother not her husband. Elena is queen of Muntenia right now. And to whom are you referring? Who are C8 and C7? Zahir 20:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

C8 is the current Emperor, C7 is his dad who was crowned "Emperor Constantine XII". It's just a title, he still has no power in the government. I'm sure we can find someone for her mother. Now you said her mother would be born between 1920-1960. The only king that encompasses those years would be Paul II. Misterxeight 20:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Couldn't Constantine XII, Alexander IV, George II or Paul I have had daughters/sisters who would fit the bill? Zahir 20:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Paul had a sister or so? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 20:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hang on, emperor Constantine XII??? I thought the current guy was the one who had himself crowned emperor! Before that, Greece had kings, no emperors. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 20:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I kept saying XIII when I mean VIII. The current emperor is the Eighth. Misterxeight 20:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In that case, who was Constantine VII? And when did he rule? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 20:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure. However, I doubt Constantine XIII would, he and his family are zealously pro-Greek. The only reason he would tolerate his wife now, would be because, well he had to. Misterxeight 21:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(1) I'm sorry but was the above in response to my message? If so, could you please place it under the message to which it was responding? Because that avoids confusion.

(2) Please note that I am asking about the Oldenburg Kings of Greece. If you're taking over Greece, that means they become your responsibility, and I don't want to tread on your toes. Do you have a preference or an idea about the identity of Elena I's mother, who would be married to Constantin I of Muntenia? Please keep in mind that he was a figurehead for his reign, kept under the SNOR-ist thumb until he was forced to abdicate then fled the country. When the SNOR fell, his daughter returned and became Queen of Muntenia.

(3) Soooo...who is Constantine XIII? Is that the dashing guy we've been talking about? I am VERY CONFUSED now. Zahir 21:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Then may I suggest we delete everything under this section and start over? You ask your question again, I assess it better, Jan adds his comments, and we have a better section. Misterxeight 21:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I am looking to discover the mother of Elena I of Muntenia. Elena's father was Constantin I (born 1929, died 1981, reigned 1951-73). Elena was crowned in 1990. Assuming she was at least 21 when this happened, this means she must have been born roughly between 1949 and 1969. This means her mother must have been born no earlier than 1929 and no later than 1949. Roughly. I would like to make Constantin's wife (Elena's mother) a member of the Oldenburg dynasty of Greece, who reigned from 1863 to 2000. This means a sister or daughter of either Constantine XII, Alexander IV, George II or Paul I. Do you have a preference or an idea about the identity of Elena I's mother, who would be married to Constantin I of Muntenia? Please keep in mind that he was a figurehead for his reign, kept under the SNOR-ist thumb until he was forced to abdicate then fled the country in 1973. When the SNOR fell, his daughter returned and became Queen of Muntenia. Keep in mind also that because Elena is already Queen in her own right, she has no interest in making any claims to the Greek throne. Zahir 22:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no preference. If you want, you can make up possibly a son or brother to some of the people. Misterxeight 01:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oregonians Step In

Um. I'm not sure how to put this delicately: can you please learn that things like this don't happen instantaneously? You asked this question in passing on Conculture; it has not been discussed; have you talked with Wayne about this? You can't just snap your fingers and pouf this kind of stuff into instantaneous existence. For example, in the real world, it might take a decade to put just the olive growing piece of this into action. Governments don't work quickly; real people don't unanimously say "oh, sign me up right away!" I really think you need to reign yourself in and concentrate on a couple basic things first. You are trying to do everything at once, and you're making a mess out of things. SLOW DOWN! Concentrate on recent Greek history -- the last couple decades up to the present; and on the man who has surrounded himself with Greece.

Original material: With foreign newspapers making things look glum for Greece the [[Oregon |People's Ecotopic Republic of Oregon]] stepped in and began to construct windmills to supply Greece with windpower, began to create historic sites dedicated to the ruins and artifacts of Greece, economically grown olives, grains, grapes, and the other staples of Greece to be exported, the reconstruction of the Acropolis, and many other things to make "Green Greece".

Elemtilas 01:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well you keep reminding me Greece will fall and Oregon sees itself to help people in the world, why not fix a potentially almost-broken nation? Misterxeight 01:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Misterxeight, it isn't about whether Oregon would in fact do such a thing (I don't see any problems with that, but I'm not caretaker for Oregon) but rather that you simply assumed they would without asking and also that you keep insisting things are happening right now. It just doesn't work like that. Things take time. They just do. IB is just like our world in that way. Your ideas and enthusiasm are more than welcome. Add some discipline and we'll all be thrilled with what you create. But you really, really, really need to start with the basics first. Start with a specific proposal, from which all others will follow. For one thing, we cannot keep up, especially since you don't give us enough details to follow. Please, please, please work up a specific proposal. One. Just to start with. We can give feedback on that one proposal, make sure it fits, and then we all proceed. But this is gonna take time. I wanted to create a whole new political party for the NAL that would have a major impact. I spent close to a year setting it up before that political party came into existence. My advice--focus now on Constantine and how he establishes his regime. That will give a solid foundation from which to build. Zahir 05:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

2009 Olympics (World Games, w/e)

In 2009 the World Games' page lists Athena as the hosting city. What better a way for the Emperor to show off his new ntion? If you watched the Olympics opening Season then you'll see how spectacular that was. I want it better. Less children and people doing kung fu, more... I haven't though that far yet. Misterxeight 03:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the word you're looking for here is "crapulence".

;)))

A good idea you've got here, by the way! Yet another way for king Constantine to bankrupt his poor country! ;)) Elemtilas 20:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Why can't you just accept Greece will turn out successful? Misterxeight 21:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea, and neither do you. What we know is that Greece has a history of self-generated catastrophe and has now installed a new king who is several cards short of a great onion. Greece could be successful if it went about its own business a little more sensibly. But like I said, who knows? They may grow tired of all the glitz and empty promise and get someone in the post of ruler who can do the job without giving the world community the heebygeebies. Or they may not. Only time will tell! Elemtilas 01:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait, what about Tibet? I thought we had discovered QSS that Tibet would be hosting the Games in '09. Or did we decide that Tibet would get the Winter Games? Benkarnell 21:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the World Games' page lists Athens as the '09 host.

It isn't a question of whether Greece will be successful, but of how much money it has to spend. As of right this moment, you've spoken a lot about what the new Empire is going to be buying and frankly come up with some economically unsound ways of paying for it all. Methinks the idea that Greece is actually in better economic shape than many assume is a valid one, but at the same time to pay for really major changes it'll take time. Frankly, it also occurs to me that Greece has at least one gigantic asset not to be discounted--namely, control of the Dardanelles. By carefully assigning tariffs and fees based on economic policies vis-a-vis Greece it might end up with some very favorable trade agreements with Russia, Turkey, Muntenia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Crimea, the Ukraine and others. Keep in mind that the Ukraine is one of the most fertile agricultural regions on Earth and (here, at least) can export a lot of food. Meanwhile, rebuilding/improving the infrastructure of Greece while making the new Empire look especially attractive (maybe with some fairly loose gambling and/or banking laws) could end up swelling the nation's treasury quite nicely. Zahir 22:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Good ideas to note. Though I don't think Greece controls the Dardanells alone -- isn't Turkey just across the way? Agree with the last ideas about loose (but not shady) banking and gambling laws. These were things hit upon by various Caribbean states early on (and even F-C profited from the concept). Elemtilas 01:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

So about the Tharthanells, what does IB have to say about them? We can always have Turkey not in control of them. Maybe they came along w/ the Constantinople areas. I always did like the idea of Greece becoming famous for "don't ask don't tell, just pay us" types of banks and big casinos. Can we push the Olympics knockoff to 2012? Maybe 2015? Misterxeight 04:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The maps I've seen would indicate that Greece has complete control of the Dardanelles. But perhaps the map is wrong? Zahir 05:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This map is pretty clear. Greece on one side, Turkey on the other. Benkarnell

Since the schedule would have been set by Greece's former government, the current Imperialist incarnation sort of inherited the start date. Probably planning, construction, and funding were already underway before this spring's inconvenient revolution (_very_ inconvenient from the point of view of the event planners). It would look bad if Greece postponed or cancelled now. I think this can be an opportunity rather than a burden. Someone in Greece might even hit on the idea of comparing the World Games to their own ancient Olympic Games... what an unusual angle! And what an opportunity to show off Greek at its best, attract some tourists, and continue to beat the "we are every bit as good as our ancient forbears" chord into everyone's heads. They'll just have to host the games on a budget. No flying torchbearers, no myriads of phosphorescent dancers, no mass-transit system built from scratch, no missiles fired at the sky to control the weather. Benkarnell 05:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I can't really let that happen? What am I going to have for the opening ceremony? A guy announcing his message then pretty much "everybody out of the stadium, event's over" and we use the old Olympic stadium? I think Tibet can handle it.

Misterxeight 05:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I really don't believe you're thinking this through.

For one thing, nothing would tell the entire world that the new Greek regime are losers than canceling the world games, forcing some other venue to pick up the slack at the last minute. This would look terrible to the world at large and be thoroughly hated by the Greeks themselves, since you would not only be humiliating the country but also depriving it of the income which comes with thousands and thousands of tourists and athletes and their staffs show up and stay in Greece. Remember, all those people have to eat, get their laundry done, need hotels to stay, probably buy tons of souvenirs, etc.

Frankly, I don't think the challenge is nearly as bad as you think. The facilities for the games are almost certainly close to completion by now. But more importantly, having really expensive pyrotechnic and/or expensive shows is not the only--or best--way to impress the world. Take a lesson from Broadway--some of the most expensive, elaborate musicals have been total flops because they were all spectacle and no heart. Greece can wow the world with good opening ceremonies, showing off the fantastic cultural heritage of that ancient people without spending enough money to go to the moon. A good fireworks display costs money, but not that much really. In our world a really huge one costs as much as a couple of really excellent automobiles. Precision marching teams of the Greek military could put on a really great show, as might any mounted cavalry units, complete with the flags of Greece and its cities.

You can also use the event to forge closer ties with other nations, including prospective members of the League. This is supposed to be an international event. Allow other nations with some special relationship to Greece to help add to the spectacle. Opera singers from Italy and and the Federated Kingdoms, etc. might sing a "world anthem" composed for the event. Might small airships from several friendly countries agree to fly a gigantic Greek flag over the stadium?

This is an opportunity, not a reason to throw in the towel. Zahir 15:22, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Tibet, News/20010718 is the incredibly old QSS that mentions it. I found the article and mentioned it on Conculture... gosh, must have been just days before you first joined. It refers to the "2008 Olympics" and was supposed to be an obvious parallel to China's real-life Olympics and the reaction to it. When I look at the schedule at World Games there's a blank spot for the 2009 Winter Sports Festival. It's probably the best compromise if Tibet gets the Winter Games and Greece, the summer. Benkarnell 15:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Then I guess it's settled. Misterxeight 19:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Military Insignia

proposed greek army insignia

I made a quick design for the Royal Greek Army, officers' shoulder bars. What do you think? Presumably the new government would change them within the next year or so. Zahir 21:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering about the scimitars. They look more Arabian or Turkish than Greek. Other than that... how do you get those gorgeous metal and fabric textures? Beautiful! Geoff

That's exactly what I thought Geoff. It turns out, thousands of years ago, Xenophon invented a Mamaluke sword type sword for his calvary as he found out the dynamics work better for decapitation with curved blades (eeeewwwwww). Then as you fast forward to Byzantine times, they sort of combined the Arab scimitar w/ the ancient Greek calvary sword. This is the sword Ottoman jannisaries/mountaineer freedom fighters of 1453-1823 used, which is what the Greeke evzones use today. Though the fatter ones, were Arab. And by the way, great work. I really like the double headed eagle and color scheme of black & olive.

Yeah, well, that is the reason for cavalry swords being curved. <g> Many thanks for your kind words. AS for the textures, in Photoshop you can create identical layers and apply a variety of filters or pattern overlays to such, then increase or decrease opacity. With a little bit of experimentation, you can do all kinds of cool effects. Zahir 00:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone like this one?

Misterxeight 01:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Very nice! Let me know what you'd like for any other military insignia, especially for the Empire as opposed to the Kingdom. Two things come immediately to mind--using red maybe instead of blue, while using a different (more byzantine) double-headed eagle. Maybe? Zahir 01:49, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You used my shamshirs! Wow! :D Looks pretty good with the rest of it. Geoff

1945 & Constantinople

I think there might be a problem with Constantinople. It says it was recaptured in 1945, which was obviously during GWII. However the only punishment Greece was given for its bt on he wrong horse was to only give up its conquered territories. Doesn't that mean Constantinople would have been given back to Turkey? Now if it's because Constantinople is considered Greek & not Turkish due to religion & ethnicity, then the same logic would be used which would meant Greece would keep Cyprus. However if we change it to 1915 which Greece won & Turkey lost, that would be fine. This also mean the Hagia Sophia would have ben redone 30 years prior to what its page says.   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs13:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Relations with Libya

Given the colonial history, there's no way on God's green Ill Bethisad that the Cyrenaeans are going to agree to political interference from the "Empire of the Hellenes" without substantial guarantees. Qadhdhafi, the Patriarch of Cyrene, and whoever represents Greece will need to negotiate.

This is good. I can have an apology from both Church & State who are no longer considered 1 being, gifts, and those cursed books back, I don't mean colony, I mean personal union. This would mean Libya is not only part of Greece, Greece is part of Libya. Qahdhafi will still remain leader of course and there's going to be no restrictions on religion or anything, as there is a substantial Muslim population on both sides of the Med. Misterxeight 20:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the Patriarch is still unconvinced with Greece. Really, why does religion have anything to do with it? This should be the political leaders of course discussing matters. However if this Patriarch is quite a competent man and not just for religion, but the preserverance of Libya, then he's more then welcome to attend the talks. Misterxeight 20:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Cyrene is part of the Federation of Libya. Cyrene is a condominium between the (Apollinarian) Patriarch of Cyrene as head of the Cyrenaean government and Qadhdhafi, the head of the T.arabulus (effectively, Libyan) government. Previously, Cyrenaica was a condominium between the T.arabulus and Greece. The colonial and post-colonial history of Libya was on here long enough to qualify as QSS. So if you want a deal between Greece and Libya, the negotiations have to include the Patriarch of Cyrene as well as Qadhdhafi. Where shall we conduct these negotiations.Theophilus88 05:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Theophilus88

Libya's page seems a good choice. Of course if everyone wants to get in on this, conculture is the best place. Now is this Patriarch Eastern or Oriental Orthodox? Misterxeight 20:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What Next?

Where do I go from here? I mean the country has a whole new name, ruler, form of government, view of the rest of the world ( & vice versa), and now even things are being patched up with Cyrenaica. Misterxeight 00:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Naval ensign

For now that's my sugestion for a greek naval ensign. Possibly this one would be more proper to Oldenburg rule than present-day.--Pedromoderno 23:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The Empire might have kept it. Looking over the flags at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Maritime_flags, it seems clear that naval flags *here* at least tend to be more conservative than national flags. They seem to stay the same when other flags change. Japan's ensign immediately brings WW2 and Tojo to mind. The ensigns and/or jacks of several Commonwealth countries recall the British Empire days much more strongly than their national flags. The jacks of Ireland, Italy, and Spain are banners of arms whose designs predate their national flags. And the USA's jack comes from revolutionary days. (I know it was reintroduced only in 2001 or so, but nevertheless.) Benkarnell 06:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just going to have the new empire recolor it red; nothing else would be messed with; unless that's too radical for naval ensigns. Misterxeight 17:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Recolouring the whole thing red would give it a real Scandinavian Realm look. Perhaps just adding an escutcheon of the new Imperial flag in the middle of the cross? Geoff 20:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Something like this, in fact:

Geoff 20:29, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

That something is perfect :) That's great for the Greek Nantikon. Misterxeight 21:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Flag

Just curious, what's with the ognjila in the flag? It looks *very* Serbian. Dalmatinac 20:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It's Byzantine/Palaiologos revival. Which is, I think, the origin of the Serb symbols. Benkarnell 21:04, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

One more thing

I'm not sure where to insert it into the text, so I'll leave it up to someone more qualified... but don't forget that after Bulgaria seceded from the CSDS, Greece thought it would be a good idea to try and grab some of the border lands, and the invasion forces got utterly destroyed by the Bulgarians. Dalmatinac 21:02, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

That's kind of the running plot line for 20th-c Greek history. Almost a running gag. In that context, the botched land purchase in Florida last year sounds almost like a punch line. Benkarnell 21:07, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Pro-SNORist government

Might I make the pro-SNOR government something like Metaxism *here*? It does seem to resemble the Metaxist government to an extent. Juan Martin Velez Linares 11:22, 14 September 2015 (CDT)

Hello, nice to meet you.

Here's the thing—Greece has never been fleshed out. It's been used a bit as a comedic stock-character always in the background and when I took over in 2007, I didn't really do a good job. For me to understand Greece's present & future, I need to understand its past. So far we know that Greek independence was only achieved in 1863 as opposed to 1821 in our world. Why was that? What could have retarded the Greek revolutionary struggle for 42 years? Greece was also strong enough to project power into Libya in 1911 and successfully administer Constantinople in 1919, so clearly in those 48-56 years, Greece was able to build itself up to a power that could hold its own on the international scene. Fastforward thirty-odd years and Greece takes a path similar to Italy leading up to GW2, but then follows its own trajectory again when civil war breaks out & a military dictatorship is declared. Fast forward another few decades and governments turn over fast and now you finally have a minor member of the Oldenburg family in power who tries to return to a less-democratic model for the state. That's a lot of gaps in a 152 year past. I'm finishing up the proposal for the GRE first, and once my rough draft is published, I can finally work on Byzantine history, then Ottoman history (neither historial entities have caretakers), then modern Greek history. For now though, my friend, I'll have to undo your edit. We can discuss these matters at a later time. Thank you, Kostas.

Misterxeight 08:43, 16 September 2015 (PDT)

Pas de probleme, monsieur. I only hope I can help you out with some details of modern Greek history, but I understand if you're not at that point yet. May you never have to deal with Helvetian pickled vegetables doused in Jervan reds. Juan Martin Velez Linares 12:09, 16 September 2015 (CDT)

Hear, hear! BoArthur 16:09, 16 September 2015 (PDT)

Feedback on Modern Additions

1. How did he fund all these projects? How did he get funding in the midst of a recession?
2. How much mileage is being laid, rail-wise? c.f. the California HSR. San Francisco to Anaheim is currently under construction. There was 4 years before shovels hit dirt, and they're predicting completion of the first phase to finish in 2029, building 840km / 520 miles (*here*'s measurements).
3. How are items so quickly hitting international markets? I would expect it to take 5-10 years before we reach pre-Palailogos levels of production and export.

Some thoughts I had while reading. Feel free to rebut. :) BoArthur 11:49, 22 July 2016 (PDT)

Hey I'm just glad that someone took the time to read it.

1. I imagine once the country started to calm down and get rid of any irredentist rhetoric that would scare off investors, the country fronting some money and using its sucees to make a case for loans from international creditors. Economics was a blind spot in IB's Greece, so I hope it wasn't dirt poor before I started. It's certainly poorer than our world's Greece (which is the richest Balkan country still after eight years of a crisis), but its growth is sustainable and built on policies that work in our world than lying about what it has. I'm using Turkey's & Ethiopia's model as my guidelines (conveniently two of the countries I studied most in college) for development and putting a stress on diversification of the economy, although I imagine that in the end, capital-intensive agricultural goods will win out in the Greek economy.

I wouldn't call 2007-2009 a recession, but I would say that international creditors were certainly too afraid to invest in Greece and some of the less involved firms were beginning to pull out. Once the government comes out and says, "you know what, we were wrong. We can't expect to create an empire that's been dead for 550-odd years, but what we can do is commit ourselves to an internal buildup. We would like to assure international firms that we are committed to working with them to start projects across the counyry designed to increase development and economic sustainablility." So, it's kind of like a not-so vicious circle. The government learns its lesson and tries to assuage international concern, it simplifies how to do business in the Greece for domestic & int'l companies.bit puts its limited funds to good use giving the right companies subsidizing, gets a better credit rating slowly but surely, and uses that credit to build infrastructure projects across the country and continue the pattern of development and sell off most state-owned companies, like the bauxite mines and refineries which in our world are worth a decent amount because you need bauxite to make aluminum. I'm going to reason with the group; when I asked to take over Greece in 2007, I was 13. I didn't know how economic development in the developing world worked. My first work on Greece was absolutely dreadful. Like really, it makes me cringe. I have a span of nine years to make up, so I'm just going back and filling in the years that this country was dormant because I was too worried about getting a piece of the Florida or Ethiopia pie and not getting my hands dirty in the economic development section which the previous caretaker never once talked about. I don't imagine that Greece fell that far back in 2007 because Christ, there was nothing to fall back from. Greece to me seems like it was at rockbottom from the time it sided with Germany until the day the emperor swung his party around nigh seventy years later. Greece to me seems like Bulgaria in our world emerging from communism. The people were so sick of ineptitude that they actually put their nose to the grindstone and experiment with policies that work (like expert-oriented industrialization). This is where Greece's geopolitical location lends a hand; cheaper goods it makes could get to Europe easy and goods coming east-to-west & vice-versa now have an easier time traversing from sea-to-shining sea.

Calfornia I would say is a bad example because the government has been so bad at getting work started. China, for example, my advisor friend told me set HS track in four years, Europe too. If the country gave the contract to a firm & incentivized it to worl well but not too slow, 600 miles of track isn't impossible. At least the mountains would have already been dug through for projects of decades past (I've taken the train from Athens to Thessaloniki before; it's miserable but the scenery is great & the tunnels are solidly dug through). Greece is small enough (Athens to Constantinople/Istanbul is less far than SF to LA) for three-five years to be doable (I used this: https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-advanced-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm).

I imagine shipping was always there, the ports are just getting expanded, and the roads repaved and widened and extended to more cities, and the oldest track that outlived its uselessness just got dug up and replaced with new rail to hold HSR safely. All in all, for once having a government with a decent amount of oversight that is against corruption instead of enabling it came in handy.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes,

Kostas

Panagia e Atheniotissa

Just curious: why the "Panayia h Atheniotissa" spelling? Wouldn't "Panagia e Atheniotissa" be more correct to the original Greek? Juanmartinvelezlinares 05:06, 7 November 2017 (PST)

No reason, it was just the transliteration system I was using at the time of writing. There's no official one. Everyone kind of has their own. In IB where everyone in quirky and quaint, English guidebooks would probably call it "Notre Dame de Athens" or "Our Lady of Athens" which would annoy me. The seventh letter of the Greek alphabet hasn't been a short "e" sound since before the Bible was written; it's been a long "e" for over 1,700 years now. I don't mind the way you have it on the page now, that works just fine. I'm glad my predecessors didn't make my job even harder and didn't add in "oh yeah by the way, just like in real life it got blown up by the Venetians when the Muslims were using it as an arsenal" so in my headcanon it's still a full complex with its buildings in full. I bet that the archbishop of Athens lives in an apartment somewhere in the real city and not in the Erechtheion anymore like bishops of Athens did in Byzantine times. Misterxeight 16:21, 7 November 2017 (PST)