Talk:Aragon

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I added the template but left the Proposal (adding a comment).

Basically, history of Aragon is basically the same as *here* before Ferdinands (*here* the Catholic, posibly *there* too) marragie with Isabella of Castile.

As Isabela does not inherit the Castilian crown, this possibility to unify Spain, by either Ferdinand or his desendants (here it was Charles I aka Emperor Charles V) does not exist.

However the Spanish kings *here* are the same as the Aragonese kings *there* up to 1700.

I don't remember which were my proposal on the Aragones Sucession War (cf Spanish Sucession War *here*).

--Chlewey 11:51, 11 Feb 2005 (PST)

Contents

Bourbon aragon

would this be the line of kings that are descendant from Philippe V of france ? (at least *here*). If yes, it would give a different slant to the french legitimist movement *there* since the one they consider the true king of france would already be a reigning king somewhere else.

It would also give an extra ensentive to the Intendant of New Francy not to fully acknowledge him as this would, technicaly, make the intendance an aragonese colony.--Marc Pasquin 07:07, 23 Feb 2005 (PST)

I had proposed that the kings from Spain *here* would be the kings of Aragon *there*, including the succession from Charles II to Philippe V (IV *there*), with just a little interlude in which Sancho V of Castile and Leon, ruled in Aragon in the middle of the War of Aragonese Succession.
Philippe IV (V *here*) was also king of Naples and Sicily who became the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
--Chlewey 10:11, 23 Feb 2005 (PST)

Naval Flag

Just for your interest, the editor of the spanish pages on FOTW recently put up an historical naval ensign of aragon:

http://www.fotw.net/flags/es-ar~hi.html

The peculiar shape would make for a distinctive trait for Aragon naval and colonial flags *there* in the same way as the scandinavian bifurcated ensigns.--Marc Pasquin 06:47, 23 Feb 2005 (PST)

Nice. --Chlewey 06:50, 23 Feb 2005 (PST)

Proposal?????

Why is this still listed as a proposal? Zahir 13:53, 22 May 2007 (PDT)

No idea. I'm depropping it. The proposal in itself is old and all the interested parties seem already to have gone over it. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 04:19, 28 August 2007 (PDT)

The Inquisition

Did it happen in Aragon? On the one hand, it seems to be a certain Isabella who was convinced to pull it by an anti-Semitic monk *here* (according to Wikipedia), but on the other hand I have a feeling they didn't exactly call her hubby Ferdinand the Catholic for no reason. I'm asking this because one of my ideas is a Protestant (well, large-ish Protestant minority) Catalonia but it kind of hinges on the Inquisition Not Happening In Aragon, and unless there's a réally good explanation for it I don't think I want to implement it in IB. Juan Martin Velez Linares 19:09, 14 October 2015 (CDT)

Unless you've got a real good reason for it not to go that way, i think it needs to go that way. Catholicism drove the Reconquista *Here*, and QAA suggests it did, *there*. BoArthur 19:09, 14 October 2015 (PDT)
Oh, okay. So much for that idea. Guess I'll just make the Catalans Latin Rite instead of Isidoran Rite Catholics instead so they at least have something in common with the Gaulhoscs... Juan Martin Velez Linares 23:04, 14 October 2015 (CDT)
Isidoran Rite/Latin Rite, that sort of flavor change I could see. You could research and see if there was a distinct Aragonese flavor of Catholic, and develop it into its own modern division. I just think having them Protestant in face of the Inquisition and the Reconquista would be hard to pull off. It's not impossible, mind. I managed to extract the Mormons from Deseret, but I had to present a compelling case to the group to do so. BoArthur 08:30, 15 October 2015 (PDT)

Iisdorian/Mozarabic Rite Aragonese and Latin Rite Catalans sounds like a great idea.

In the 19th Century, the Scots did some proselytizing on the island of Madeira and their descendants moved to the US, so there are some very small communities of Iberian Protestants in our world. Perhaps in the 19th Century, the Catalan population feels marginalized and the Crown fights industrialists for the fate of the country. Protestantism at its roots is about the bourgeoisie controlling the means of production, so perhaps out of spite, the wealthiest of Catalans convert to Protestantism and send for Scottish missionaries, who are all too glad to stick it to Rome. Maybe that way you could have like 1/8th of Catalunya be Protestant. I just pulled that number completely out of the air: maybe it's more or less. Misterxeight 10:55, 19 October 2015 (PDT)

Whelp, I got my Catalan Protestants! (Só convenient to take advantage of English control of Minorca in the 1700s...) So I guess that's figured out. While we're still on the topic of religion, what do youse think is the status of la infame Sagrada Familia? I have a feeling that *there*, what with No Bloody Civil War and all, it's significantly more complete if not perhaps outright done. Juan Martin Velez Linares 21:23, 04 Nov 2015 (CDT)

Broad Changes?

I'm a bit flustered over some of the changes you've made, Senor Martin. Can you delineate for me the reasoning behind:

  1. Marriage to Isabella being removed
  1. Catalan's change from being the official language
  1. The religious changes?

I'm concerned that we're violating QSS with some of what you've done. BoArthur 11:55, 22 July 2016 (PDT)

I'm the one who originally wrote up Aragon's religious demographics (before, it just said "Roman Catholicism" without any additional specification). The "Minorca is Protestant" thing is an idea I was toying with and I had added to the page previously, but deleted later. There was a discussion on this above with both you and M. Leganopoulos. I re-read it, thought "hey, Protestant Minorca isn't such a bad idea" and put it back in. I'll remove it if you want, it's no big deal to me anyway.
Catalan still IS the official language; I didn't change any of that. If you're talking about the "co-official (but mildly less prestigious)" part, I wrote it since you mentioned how you thought Catalan would have been somewhat sidelined by Aragonese on the Talk:Catalan page. It was considered an official language of Aragon long before I came around, though--I think Carlos wrote that.
I removed the marriage to Isabella in order to better line up the page with that of Castile, which I don't believe mentions the marriage to Isabella anywere (plus, Ferdinand didn't become king of Castile so...) I was really trying to coordinate the page with the QSS fact that Castile and Aragon never united to create Spain. If I missed something about how that happened, then please, point it out to me! Juan Martin Velez Linares 15:46 22/07/2016 CDT
I'll look at it some more. You may be right. I just know that Chlewey was fairly consistent across his countries. Thank you for giving me the run-down. :) BoArthur 09:31, 25 July 2016 (PDT)

If I may way in (not that I should, but Aragon is my favorite W. European country), we do need to tread lightly and evaluate the divergence of history. If Aragon is ever united with Castile to make Spain, I fear that the path of events would flow identically to our world and before you know it, the crowns get merged to form Spain and everything that makes Aragon unique is wiped out. We need to keep these crowns as separate as possible or barring that, go for a violent independence movement when the united crowns falter like what happened in Portugal in our world.

Also, I just like Aragonese more than Catalan. Does it have to be the most spoken language? It seems like Murcia went Aragonese speaking and now half of Barcelona doesn't speak it, so it has made inroads against Catalan.

Religion

In terms of religion, Aragon strikes me as a bit diverse. It seems like the hub for Byzantine refugees post 29th of May, 1453, enough for them to go colonize a chunk of the New World in the name of Aragon. I imagine plenty stayed, although under the parameters of living in Europe, I'd bet big money that they'd have no choice but to become Uniates like the Greeks of Cargese, Corsica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carg%C3%A8se). Anyone who wanted to preserve their language and their faith seems like the type to travel 10.500km/6,500 miles to preserve it, while those that remained behind would be content to preserve their rites and rituals subordinate to the Latin bishops and adopt Aragonese after a couple of generations. Likewise, one thing that the page on Castile doesn't mention is that the Crowns of Aragon and Portugal did not expel their Jews and Muslims. That impetus came from the Castilians, which each crown was united with by a shared monarch. No union, no expulsions. The Aragonese and Portuguese were smart enough to realize that the Muslim farmers and Jewish merchants were integrated into their economy and expelling them would do nothing. On top of those three minorities, I figure a fourth (or even a fifth!) would be present in the far north of the country on the French border. The Cathars survived in this world and did take refuge in Aragon, and in our world, Navarre was the first monarchy to be officially Calvinist. Because Calvinism survives to make up half of Gaulhe, I imagine that some Cathar Narbonosc speakers and Protestant Navarrese would make up at least part of the population in the far northwest in Uesca/Huesca.

If you want to do something different with Minorca, I'd recommend more of an approach of just having part of the population being Protestant as more of a novelty than the entire island converting en masse in the 1800's. In our world, British missionaries did work in Iberia (a Scottish missionary got some converts in Madeira and him and his flock got kicked out and they settled near Chicago, https://www.jstor.org/stable/40204718), so it's not unrealistic. Maybe they work with the Muslim populace, or the Morisco population with only the slightest veneer of Catholicism over it. They might see some kinship in the aniconic and dour Calvinism like the Waldensians saw kinship in the anti-dualist Mormons. That's just something to consider. Misterxeight 12:49, 25 July 2016 (PDT)

The way you've presented it, I don't think it's a problem to have them keep the muslim and jewish minorities around, although there might have been cultural pressures to convert. I'd write that as a proposal to share on Conculture. I also like your suggestions of change for Minorca. BoArthur 08:45, 28 July 2016 (PDT)

Thank you kindly. There's no way that conversions wouldn't be desirable to those who want upward mobility. That's just how it worked in medieval Europe. I imagine that only inland Aragon (the agricultural community) & Murcia (the closest place to Granada) would be the two big areas, as well as migrants to urban Zaragoza. Jews might be a bit more spread out. The Isidorian Rite I read somewhere around here is 'supposed to be "Muslim & Jewish influenced," and I wanted to propose what that really looks like by building off of the Mozarabic Rite of our world (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabic_Rite), make the music sound like this (this hymn has a Sufi singer in the background, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qAxJbqTCr3M), and include a menorah on the altar like we Orthodox Christians do (https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-church-building/altar-table) for the Jewish influences. Maybe I'll look into bringing in Jewish mysticism into the seminaries, as well as old Jewish prayers that previously never made their way into Christianity. It could be fun. Misterxeight 12:33, 28 July 2016 (PDT)

With regards to religious demographics, I should note that it was actually a Hapsburg king (Philip III) who expulsed the Moriscos from the Iberian peninsula; however, the impetus for the expulsion of explicit Muslims wás Castilian in origin. IMO the most likely scenario would be that Castile expels explicit Muslims as per *here* while Aragon keeps its Muslims for another century or so. In 1609, Philip III Hapsburg (perhaps enraged by Batavian Protestant taunts about the Iberian Peninsula's "corrupted" nature, as *here*) issues a decree that expels all Muslims and those of Muslim descent in Aragon. Some of the expelled settle in Mueva Sefarad, some settle in the Ottoman Empire, some settle elsewhere. Meanwhile, Castile, which doesn't experience Hapsburg rule, ultimately allows its Morisco population to stay, and they become a tolerated, if discriminated against, minority in the country. I imagine that they'd probably be Isidoran Rite Catholics like their neighbours, but preserve their own distinct cultural identity and perhaps even retain Andalusi Arabic or Mozarabic (I should note Andalusi Arabic actually lasted longer, until the date of the Morisco expulsion). Castile may even welcome Christians of Muslim descent expelled from Aragon into their territories. As for the Jews, I don't think the Hapsburgs housed any particular animosity towards them like Isabella I did (otherwise there wouldn't have been any Jews in Austria), so perhaps they managed to stay in Aragon until the present day. If that is the case, then both Aragon and Castile may well be significantly more prosperous than they are *here*! I can't really say for Portugal, since I don't know if the marriage to Princess Isabella happened *there*, nor if the Philippine dynasty *there* are the Hapsburgs. Depending on which one is true, Portugal may have Christians, Moriscos, Jews, and Muslims, Christians and Moriscos but no Jews or Muslims, Christians and Jews but no Moriscos or Muslims, or only Christians. As for your other two proposals on religious minorities in Aragon, I very much agree with both of them; I should note that I myself was thinking of a Cathar minority in northern Aragon! (I just never breached the topic) On the topic of the Protestant Navarrese, I could definitely see a mass conversion of the primarily Basque Navarrese to Reformed Protestantism under the Kingdom of Navarre and later Gaulhe. The Basques *here* are known for their dour, frugal character--something which would likely suit Calvinist teachings very well. I should note, though, that there aren't really many Basques in *here*'s region of Aragon.
With regards to your proposal about the Isidoran/Mozarabic rite: I should note that the "bit Muslim- and Jewish-influenced" section of the rite is actually a peculiarity of Montrei, presumably due to Moriscos and Conversos settling there. You can institute those characteristics for the Montreiano version of the rite and quite possibly the Morisco version as well, but I don't really think it would be a rite-wide thing or anything. Juan Martin Velez Linares 13:09, 02/08/2016 (EDT)

Hope you don't mind that I changed to Minorca's Protestantism to not mention influence by the English kingdom. Ben mentioned that the old idea for England was to make it something like 55% Catholic and 45% Prot (and we thought it'd be fun to make the vaguely mentioned Protestant Archbishop of Yorwich Lutheran and make Presbyterians/Calvinists a minority in English Protestantism), so it's totally realistic for English Protestants as individuals to go around the world as missionaries (I snuck them into Albania for some flavor), but I don't think the state would be cheering them on, especially if it means they'd rock the boat and piss off the locals during their occupation.

Unless you meant to say that Sasanaigh rule on the island gave the islanders more religious freedom than ever before which gave English citizens a window into the island to convert the locals, and missions and converts starting sprouting up all around the island. I guess I'd believe that, but I'd also believe the colonial authorities putting the kibosh on their countrymen's endeavors, too. I'd also like to add a blurb about Uniates of Greek descent in the coastal towns giving the country a small Eastern Catholic community, and maybe some of them in the 19th or 20th Century reverted to Orthodoxy as laborers from Ukraine and Romania started to come into the country just as they did to Portugal and Catalonia in our world.

Misterxeight 20:23, 30 May 2017 (PDT)

Catalan v Aragonese

Hmm. Interesting ideas! The "Catalan is the most spoken language" thing was QSS from when Carlos still ran the page; since he's MIA, I decided to keep that just to keep QSS all nice and lined up. If you want, you can flip the demographics, as long as everyone else agrees to it (I know that I'm fine with it). My personal vision for Aragon's lingustic makeup is something of a 50/50 linguistic divide, with Catalan dominating the coasts down to northern Murcia (which *here* had a Catalan dialect of its own until the late 19th century or so) the Balears, and Melilla and Oran, and Aragonese dominating inland and southern Murcia as well as the upper and parts of the middle classes in Barcelona. would have more speakers solely by virtue of having the Barcelona metro area, and I didn't envision the divide in number of speakers between the two as being any more than ~10%. Juan Martin Velez Linares 17:01, 27/07/2016 (EDT)
You may have news stories pointing out new changes in the linguistic makeup of the country, but since we have QSS that Catalan is the majority language, we're going to have to stick with that up to a certain point in (relatively) modern history, since it is QSS. BoArthur 08:41, 28 July 2016 (PDT)
I'm not saying a new census study won't come out later this year revealing a subtle shift in favor of Aragonese, mind... BoArthur 08:47, 28 July 2016 (PDT)

You know what I bet would be the one change that works in Aragonese's favor? Immigration. If you're an immigrant coming from Subsaharan Africa or E. Europe or Southeast Asia, you're probably going to want to learn the official language, especially if you're flocking to Barcelona and the half of the population that matters is the group speaking Aragonese. Misterxeight 12:19, 28 July 2016 (PDT)

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