Talk:Lago Grande

Who's Who

I was wondering who the Deseret militias are? Zahir 12:08, 1 Oct 2005 (PDT)

There are a number of them. Noteable are the the 3 or 4 prominent Mormon militias, but there are also Californio militias and some that claim they are from Oregon and Tejas. To put it simply, the only real government of the Deseret region is anarchy. BoArthur

Interesting. So I'm assuming the Californios et al are trying to bring Deseret into their own states (or are using that excuse) while the Mormons are carving out their own nation-state? Is that right? Sounds like a combo of Bosnia/Serbia, Iraq and Warlord-era China *here*. Zahir 13:22, 1 Oct 2005 (PDT)

It's more the Californios are competeing against secessionist "Mormons". Internationally, Deseret is viewed as part of AC. It's only the misguided New and Living Ministry of Jesus Christ of Modern Saints that are the biggest proponents for a free Deseret State. BoArthur

It is these radical NLMJCMS's (wow, that's long! :)) which have resulted in Mormons in AC getting a bad name (we all know how media reports get misunderstood). Also, the article needs some adjusting. These rebels only control part of the great basin, since the great basin geologically takes uo the area of northwestern Utah, most of Nevada and part of California. As Bo said, Deseret is already a part of AC but the rebels claim that it is theirs. AC has largely been unable to focus on the area since for most of its history its been fighting with Tejas. Now that Tejas has stepped down, AC can now focus on taking care of the problem. I wonder why Mejico would be provoking these rebels, since it sort of contradicts Mejico helping AC (since, if they were provoking them to make AC lose territory, then why would they stop Tejas fully instead of just containing them to Tejas (Tejanos crossed into a small part of Mejico to try a sea invasionin the Sea of Cortez)

AC will probably begin taking a more hardline approach to deseret, claiming it is in the interest of national security. However, this may be a powder keg since nations surrounding the area may worry the fighting could spread to their nations, or these rebels could flee into their territories.

Right now, containment seems to be working and and for most Californios, that part of the nation is worthless desert, and the rebels can stay there as long as they keep away from main areas of population. -- Doobieous

Deseret insurgents

Now, I may be wrong, but to me it sounds like the mormons are acting like the Iraqi insurgents *here*. Another thing: If most of the Californios don't care for it, why does the AC government care about it? Seth

Actually, they aren't like the Iraqi insurgents here, since these Mormons were the fanatical mormons who moved in from Louisiana. They for the most part don't even speak Castilian. That part of AC was considered more of a frontier than a province of AC, and that's exactly how they were able to get into the area and settle. These fanatics are considered invaders.

It's also partly a matter of not losing land. AC already had lost a large portion of its territory to Tejas, who had slowly conquered the original provincial lands of AC. Most Californios (except hardline nationalists) may not care for it, but for it to become it's own nation would mean a possible invastion of AC lands further west, and despite disatisfaction with the AC government, they would definitely not like to see that happen.

AC has begun moving troops into the area in more recent times. AC treats the fanatics as they did the invading Tejas forces, and act accordingly. AC learned many lessons from the rather unorganized war with Tejas, and have begun doing sweeps of settlements closest to the border zones. My guess is that there may be a rather tenuous alliance with Tejas now that the Queen has been restored, and Deseret is a possible threat to Tejas as well.

I also think that Louisianne, Oregon and Tejas would not like to see these insurgents being sucessful. I'm sure those three countries had fairly strong border patrols to make sure the insurgents didn't move out to take other lands.

Something I noticed on the maps page over on Geocities is that the Deseret area takes up half of AC's territory. This can't really be possible since I can't imagine there would be THAT many fanatics holding that much land. Doobieous 16:20, 24 December 2005 (PST)

Mormon fanatics get all the press (mostly, and Dan can correct me if I'm wrong, I think on the part of normal peaceful Mormons who wish no more than to point out that these are fanatics and really have little to do the mainstream of Mormon religion and behaviour), but they may not be the only rabble rousers in the area. You say that Oregon, Tejas and Louisianne all probably have strongish border patrols surrounding the region to keep "invaders" out. A penny to a pound says that Oregon, Tejas and Louisianne have all sent their share of rabble to the region! It's unfair to lay the blame solely on LA when the region has been in dispute by all the countries around. I wouldn't be surprised if Deseret weren't some kind of unofficial penal colony -- what better way for the region's second rate third rate "powers" to deal with the most trucculent of citizens then to escort them to the borders? Elemtilas 06:28, 25 December 2005 (PST)

I knew someone would say just that :). I was speaking about the Mormon fanatics, not the other outlaws which have made the area home. There's a fair share of criminals from AC itself who have "bases" there. There are also Oregonian extremists. There are even Tejano nationalists bent on creating their idea of what Tejas *should* have been. In short, AC has its hands full trying to take care of the problems, and has grown increasingly bitter towards its neighbors to the nort, south, and east. I mentioned all three other countries may have strong border patrols to keep their trash from returning. Even within Deseret there is no organized government (just as has been mentioned). It's as lawless as the article states, a place no sane person would want to go, and something like what all of the post-apocalyptic movies depict happening after a great war (minus the "futuristic feel" of course). The different bands of outlaws fight amongst themselves, which is why it's incredible that AC has been able to keep it rather contained.

I actually think that with all of the different bands of criminals vying for supremacy, there's no way that the extremist Mormons would ever establish their "Kingdom of God" since anyone who has actually made it into and out of alive from there report that the "cities" are not much more than camps or at best, shanty towns. I think that the countries who claim the region are sorely mistaken if they think dropping off the dregs of their society is going to secure them the territory. It's likely that these people they drop off are likely to turn against them, even if by some miracle, troops from any of the three bordering nations were to sweep in and attempt to claim the land. I see the situation as a catch 22. I think it would actually be a poor move to even attempt it.

Interestingly, as you approach the "border" there are signs which warn of the danger of outlaws and probable kidnapping. There are many stories of people who have stayed into the territory who end up dissapeared. An occasional body will wash up on the banks of the Rio Colorado from time to time. It's really an unpleasant place. Now that I think about it, AC seems to be the red headed step child of North America. It simply can't win it seems. Doobieous 06:44, 25 December 2005 (PST)

RE: "I think that the countries who claim the region are sorely mistaken if they think dropping off the dregs of their society is going to secure them the territory." I have a certain suspicion that the true state of affairs is about as far away from this as you could please. In other words, none of those countries really want to occupy and secure the territory in question. Let's look round this little card table in western North America at all the players:

Tejas has always been a banana republic and nothing more. If it didn't have helium and oil it would probably be better off. I don't think the Tejan government really had the wherewithal to properly secure the worst criminals (those it couldn't draft into the Army anyway). And as you say, it's always been unstable enough that revolutionary groups have seen fit to use Deseret as a safe haven and base of operations. Their trying to clean up their act, but are in no position to really do anything about Deseret.

Louisianne has always been a banana republic and nothing more. If its major trading partner wasn't the NAL, it wouldn't even get a second look from Japan et al. For that matter, it owes its whole existence to the grace and honour of the young NAL in the aftermath of their little war with the French! Its history in the region has largely been one of playing Tejas and A-C off one another, undermining their respective governments and supplying arms to whichever side would pay for them (or would pay more to have "damaged goods" sent to the other side) and was also happy to stir up trouble in Deseret as well. The new President is trying to steer LA away, but Louisianan busineses and local officials have not always wanted to go along with his reforms. Time will tell if he survives his term as President or ends up swimming in some dark bayou somewhere.

Oregon I think is really the horrified bystander. Its actions seem mostly to be defensive in nature. While I'm sure that some Oregonian anarchists who simply can't stand such government as exists in Oregon have headed for the hills of Deseret, I think Oregon itself is mostly interested in containing Deseret's problems in Deseret. Under their goody-two-shoon public face, I bet that some of the stories of deportations to Deseret are more than mere fancy.

Alta California you know better than me. But I think that A-C has been left holding the bag. I'd be willing to bet that if A-C gave up its "sovereignty" over the Deseret region, you'ld see absolutely no Louisianan or Tejan or Oregonian troops cross the border to claim the territory. My hypothesis is that Deseret is both a convenient dumping ground for Tejas, LA (and possibly to an extent Oregon), but it is also a handy way "keeping the greater peace" in the region. Everyone knows A-C is too proud to pull out of Deseret; and so long as the red herring of competing claims is laid against the territory, A-C wastes its precious resources in defending those claims to a land that no-one but A-C really want. That effort (a sort of "cold war" in a tea pot) in turn is what keeps A-C from retaking lands in Tejas and from possibly restaking Castile's old claim to Louisiana. At least in the opinions of the other countries.

What a 'orrible little situation! Makes for interesting conspiracy theorising anyway! Elemtilas 13:17, 25 December 2005 (PST)

No correction as to the fact that it's people of the "New and Living LDS Church." Of course, the Louisiannans would put a much better spin on what you've said yourself. I agree, however that indeed, things are not as rosy as the news would say. While I don't know of dissidents being sent across the border in the current administration, I do know that they could have been sent in the past, prior to my advent to The Project. ;). Should I draft up a proposal linking interests in the NAL, Tejas and AC to a pending assassination of Jean-François Young? That is what you've intimated, isn't it? ;) Should the NAL Secret Police run a raid of a medical student's home in Georgetown? ;) BoArthur 16:31, 25 December 2005 (PST)

Well, the NAL has no desire to snuff its neighbours' leadership! There's almost no American political commentator, regardless of their camber, who would seriously disagree that Young is the best man to lead LA. But while Louisianans might (rightfully if not justifiably, in all honesty) "put a better spin" on the issues, the American commentators are looking from the outside in and they basically see Young as a surrounded, outmanned and outgunned hero holed up on some hillfort (Alesia, for example). Sooner or later, outside forces will wear his reform down if for no other reason than that they have got inertia and momentum and mass on their side. That's not to say he won't give it his all and may well succeed in some measure (I of course can not predict that with any certainty!). I see Young and Jaime Bush as being of the same role. Both were reformers of banana republics -- the difference is that Young is favoured by the Americans (it's true of Americans *there* too that they favour the underdog) while Bush was not only villified but was on the receiving end of American military might. For what it's worth, I'd be looking into the flats of med students in Mobile (NAL) before Georgetown! ;) Elemtilas 00:38, 26 December 2005 (PST)

You're right Padraic, AC IS left holding the bag, and it's a pretty bad one to hold at that. I think the situation for AC is one of the saddest, and I'm not sure where else in IB is a comparable situation (I'd be interested to know). Thanks for the great analysis! Doobieous 17:23, 25 December 2005 (PST)

Sometimes I get things pretty close to right! I can't think of a parallel situation elsewhere in IB. It's sad on a number of levels. Probably, A-C wouldn't really have much reason to aggrandise its own territory if left alone by Tejas and LA (though they might have changed their minds about Montrei), so if this long-standing tiff over Deseret had never come about, it would probably be a fairly prosperous frontier province of A-C and the region would have enjoyed some long term stability. It might not be a bad exercise to consider some ways A-C can get out from under this weight in such a way that they will not lose national honour. If that's even possible.

Well, as for Montrei, I think that the possibility of souring possible trade deals with other nations, like Japan for harassing Montrei might not be a slick move. Besides, Montrei feeds a great deal of AC by supplying a large amount of produce, since AC had focused so much on the war with Tejas. Ultra-nationalists still want to see Montrei returned to AC, but I think the AC government knows better than to do anything against Montrei (though, governments are prone to stupid moves, of course!). I agree about the situation with Tejas. Had AC not had to fight on two fronts (Montrei and Tejas) and then on one front (Tejas), the Deseret region would've probably enjoyed a boom of sorts due to the natural resources in the area. It might have even turned into something like a resort area and tourist trap. With AC's attention focused on Tejas, they had no time to develop the land, and so rouges and criminals were able to set up base there. Doobieous 03:12, 26 December 2005 (PST)

What Can Be Done?

It might be interesting to consider what would happen if A-C disposed of Deseret in some fashion...

• They could gear up for an all-out battle royale. Just declare a general War on Insurgency and send in the army and air corps to mop the place as best they can. Pros: thought the news is dreadful, there really can't be that many people living in Deseret; cons: they're entrenched and have a lot of room to hide. The desired end would be an end to the disruption of life in the region.

• A-C could simply announce that on 1 January, 2006, all A-C forces will begin permanent withdraw from the Deseret region...in other words, test my hypothesis that the other lands about really don't want Deseret in the first place. The desired end here might be that the rabble in Deseret will have to sort out their own affairs.

• A-C could try to dump authority/responsibility onto some other country. Basically transfer the Deed over to LA or Oregon or Tejas. See how they like them apples!

• A-C could try to fob Deseret off on the LoN. Let the League try to sort this one out. It would be humourous in that the very countries drafted to create and implement the Solution are the very same countries who, up til now, have been nothing but part of the problem!

• A-C could try to auction the land off to the highest bidder. You never know what might come of that. Some daft rich knobs might come over looking for a bush-whacking good time in the American outback...complete with gunfights and good old-fashioned lawlessness you only get in alt-historical/fantasy novels!

• A-C could alternatively turn the place into a "nature reserve". Seal the border between Deseret and A-C proper, and leave it at that. Forever wild -- no one enters or leaves without high government clearance. Build an electric fence and a dyke and let whoever is stuck in Deseret be stuck in Deseret. Let LA, Ore and Tej sort out their respective issues!

Elemtilas 00:38, 26 December 2005 (PST)

That's a lot of interesting things to think about, and I actually began to wonder how the hell AC could get out of this situation. The first bullet is interesting, and I think that it wouldn't gain such bad press since internationally the region IS considered part of AC and everyone pretty much knows what the situation is about. I suspsect AC's neighbors would complain about it for fear of it spreading beyond Deseret. For the second, if that happened, it would remain lawless, but I think a lot of internal cleaning up might occur. Without a focus( AC's troops) it would turn inward. Handing authority off would probably mean the other nations would get to deal with the situation but I'm sure it might frighten them into refusing it, or drawing them into a costly and bloody situation. The idea of a rich businessman's own "wild west shooting range" is amusing, and I am sure that there is a stupid enough person for that, but well.. what happens if these investors end up dead? I guess a contract transferring Deseret back to AC if the owner dies could be put in place in the contract!

Well, I'm sure any rich knobs that come over to Deseret LLC for a fortnight of wild west gun slinging and similar have probably taken out insurance policies and signed a number of waivers and contracts that don't hold as liable the owner of Deseret LLC. I'ld also bet that any knob daft enough to buy Deseret and turn it into a rich boys playground probably has his own private army sufficient to deal with the rabble thereabouts.

This might actually be the scariest situation of all. A sort of modern day Lundy...

I do enjoy the fifth option, as, again, it introduces a bit of Old-Western (Eastern?) flair into IB. I like the idea of a sort of semi-lawless (or even totally lawless) territory, presided over however heavily - or lightly - by an eccentric aristocrat, unless that kind of thing has already been done before. This has a lot of potential for political hijinks if, say, the "natives" were to rise up against the ruling faction, or what have you.

Do remember to sign your comments, Cadmus. And I think we could have some of that, but it's more integrated into AC nowadays than when this discussion took place. If you'd like to contribute to Lago Grande (beyond your perfectly acceptable contributions so far), let's chat. I'm always open to having others play in my corner of the sandbox. BoArthur 16:03, 27 July 2015 (PDT)

Of all of them, my favorites are the League of Nations, and the Nature Reserve idea. The LoN Idea is probably the most workable, and I think that AC has learned from its mistake in not going to the League out of pride. Since the LoN works on a "One for all and all for one" idea, that international help could work for the situation. As you say, it can't be THAT populous, less than one million people (if that) total for the number of insurgents. I think that this idea might be the best one as it would get the four involved nations together to work the situation out and to talk with each other, which is what I think is lacking in this region.

The irony of the LoN idea (the sort of "atomic option") is that A-C would be far from off the hook. The General Council would simply summon the ministers from Oregon, LA, Tejas and A-C (and possibly Montrei, the NAL and New France as well) to instruct them to clean up Deseret or else all of North America is sanctioned and blockaded from world commerce.

I agree with you that this is probably the best solution, ultimately. The NAL is certainly powerful enough on its own to deal with Deseret, but is currently distancing itself from that issue. Its of no direct concern, as they feel this is ultimately a local affair. And I think there is some justification for the opinion. The NAL feel that LA itself is a more unstable problem and one that is closer to home than Deseret. If the LoN involved the NAL in the solution of Deseret, you can bet there is not much they wouldn't do to mop it up on the quick. Sanctions against one of the most powerful and wealthy countries in the world would not be a Good Thing.

On the other hand, sanctions against all of North America (the NAL incl.) would send the world down an interesting historical path. It would be almost impossible for the NAL to maintain its status as a member of the CoN. Some more interesting speculations here...

• The North American countries form their own encapsulated League in opposition to the LoN -- could be a big war to break the powerful grip of the LoN...

• The NAL, New France and Montrei tire of the spiralling situation and protracted sanctions and declare a general war on A-C, Tejas and LA. The NAL ends up conquering and annexing LA, Tejas and A-C (and thus solving the Deseret Conundrum). Radical elements in the new American government end up pushing for the overthrow and annexation of New France, Montrei, Oregon and Alaska as well, thus solving all of the NAL's problems in the region.

• Sanctions and lack of trade cause the region's, mm, lower echelon countries (LA, Tejas and A-C) to plummet drastically and hit bottom with considerable force. Refugees and dissilusioned masses invade Montrei and the NAL (sort of squatters on the land of the wealthy). But the downward spiral in Montrei and NAL cause general unrest, division and a horrific series of Social Wars in general in the North American continent. A sort of post-apopyclyptic Mad Maxism without the atomic weapons...

The nature preserve is a rather neat idea. Since putting up walls isn't as stigmatized as it is here, a large Earthen Dyke which blocks access, and a high, electrified and concertina wired fence to keep people from moving back and forth could work. Montrei itself has a somewhat similar situation where it has a series of outposts along the AC border to watch people trying to enter illegally (although without such a dangerous barrier!) Doobieous 03:12, 26 December 2005 (PST)

While Oregon would be most appreciative of A-C's ecological approach, they would probably be one of the first to point out that it doesn't really solve anything. This is just another way for A-C to Pontius Pilate the whole affair. It would also rely on Tejas and LA to set up similar dykes and fences and watch towers, etc. It is also not a very humanitarian way of treating a 100.000 people, who would in effect be reduced to animal specimen status in the world's largest free-range zoo.

Elemtilas 07:57, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Couple of thoughts, though. Tactically, the defense always has the advantage of interior lines and simply needing to survive in order to "win." Theirs is the status quo. Countering that is the relative size and sophistication of the actual Militias involved versus genuine military forces with much larger budgets and professional training. Yet because the Militias aren't professional, that also makes them less predictable. And it is politically tricky for nations that have anything resembling representative government to engage in total war--it is very ugly, very expensive, and very prone to protest. I see Deseret as IB's combo of Northern Ireland and Isreal/Palestine *here* with all the problematical details. And while maybe some folks (Gore's NAL for instance) might think they have the resources to settle the problem once and for all, the facts make this look like a much harder nut to crack than it might seem to someone who hasn't really studied it. Huh--is Gore the type to try and distract from the Watergap Scandal by taking on Deseret? Tis a thought, anyway. Zahir 09:23, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Actually, I agree with you that, as things stand, Deseret is one very tough nut to crack. But that's only because the status quo is reasonably comfortable and far away. It would be a much different matter once the League of Nations get involved. Mr Gore I am sure is quite willing to Let Sleeping Dogs Lie; but if a general sanction were looming over the NAL like Damocles's Sword, you'ld bet that Mr Gore would be all action and once the American people knew what was at stake, they'd mobilise right behind whatever he saw fit to do. They might even overlook certain slightly underhanded knavery if it means solving the issue to the LoN's satisfaction. RE the Watergap Scandal, that's pretty much water under the bridge anymore. I have to find the relevant clippings, but Mr Gore seems to have come out smelling like something approximating a rose. Elemtilas 16:23, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Question: Would a LoN sanction even be possible against the NAL and the rest of North America? I mean, considering their significance in the world economy, would the rest of the League reject the council's call for sanctions? Seems to me that, at the very least, it would pose a major crisis for the League Nik 21:27, 26 December 2005 (PST)

The answer is "I don't know" -- sanctions against a major power (even a fairly mid-sized one like the NAL) of the so-called first world haven't been enforced before. It would be a first. If the LoN chose that route (there are certainly lesser forms of punishment and other means to get done what the LoN mandates), we'd be interested in finding out just how serious the world is about the League. Would the FK and SR be willing to go along with the sanctions? Would the LoN be essentially dissolved? How would the developping world view the two-faced actions of the first world? Oh, sure, when it's my poor little country, it's all "sanctions for you until you get your act together!" -- but no!, when it's the NAL, all of a sudden, the FK and SR are talking about disolving the LoN or withdrawing from it!

Unlike the UN *here*, the LoN has teeth and thus far has had the commitment of the major players, even when the League has sided with right and justice against those same major players.

Knee Jerks And Feasibility

I wonder if anything CAN be done with Deseret. As it was said, they're much like Israel/Palestine here. At some level, I think that AC/The World need to go in and back a larger, more legitimate group to somewhat strengthen them and aid them in weeding out the dissidents.

This of course is a faulty view, and I really don't see a way that the situation can be immediately solved. It's going to be a very long and drawn-out process. It's taken more than 100 years for this horrific mess to develop. It's not going to be cleaned up overnight, short of firebombing and nuking the ENTIRE province, which would raise more than just eyebrows. I think it would rather garner the ire of every nation surrounding AC and the whole North American Continent.

I don't know what really could be done. LoN Sanctions would be, in my view, rather extreme for this situation. I think that Alta California needs to work up some sort of amnesty for those who live in the area, to invite them into productive partnership with the AC Government and shifting the military budget from El Rio de Sangre to the full assimilation of Deseret. I'm sure the militarios would be more than happy to keep their budget. BoArthur

Which is why the League have not been involved as of yet -- that's my guess anyway. Who wants to risk sanctions if Deseret truly proves to be unsolvable? Elemtilas 16:26, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Well, I wonder if some sort of autonomy granted might work? If not, like you say, a sort of amnesty -- Join AC as a fully participating member, gain rights and priveleges you aren't enjoying right now, and keep your land, or something to that effect. It's not really something that's easily solvable, as aleady has been said. I guess the question is, how can lawlessness be turned around? In what way can you please (somewhat) religious zealots, criminal elements, ultra nationalists, and ecoterrorists? Doobieous 20:33, 26 December 2005 (PST)

Well, I would say that there has already been established (QSS at some level) that there is an organized "integration movement", including some of the New and Living LDS folks. I think that we would be very likely looking at an Iraqi situation, where we have centres of order amidst a sea of chaos. I think that with a pronounced presence, supplying order to the region, the lawlessness would in due order subside. I would imagine that part of the issue is due to the fact that there has been no law-enforcement within the region for the better part of this century, as the whole of Alta Californio attention has been given only to the border war with Tejas.

I would want to say, let AC build up their law-enforcement in the region, let them enlist the pro-union forces. I think there's a rough road ahead, but I think the region is salvageable. I think that there would be support by LA, the NAL, Montrei and Oregon, as a way to strengthen the region.

Speaking in a Pro-Louisiannan voice, I know that Young and his reformers are more than happy to have a strong ally in Alta California, a renewed trading partner, and a more peaceful western border. I think that they would very happily support a move such as this, as this change in the internal politics of their neighbor could be seen as a further strike against the dualistic Louisiannan policies of the past. They would of course be hoping that with such a support on their part they could secure their good-will of AC.

What do y'all think? BoArthur 22:43, 26 December 2005 (PST)

I agree that Deseret is not a lost cause, but thus far, none of the interested parties have done any more than talk about it. I note that the US *here* tamed the lawless West, and that was a much larger region, plus they had Natives to deal with. Took about 80 years, too. I see no reason why A-C can't move stepwise at increasing law and order in the region. With or without the help of any other countries.

It would certainly help if LA would officially withdraw its claims on Deseret. I know Mr Young has been pushing for such legislation for quite a while now, but obviously there are forces at work in the Louisianan legislature that keep it from passing. Not a surprise, as there has traditionally been a lot of money in keeping Deseret just as it is.

It would also help if Tejas would do the same. The queen has issued a proclamation to that effect, but unhappily, the legislation that backs up the proclamation has language in it to the effect that Tejas continues to reserve the right to cross the borders of Deseret "when Californio outlaws threaten the integrity of the Realm". I'm sure that rankles an A-C that probably still doesn't trust Tejas's motives.

Certainly a stable Deseret would help to stablise LA, and the NAL would like that very much.

I might suggest that, in addition to working with pro-AC elements in Deseret that A-C slowly sweep the land from west to east and properly confine any outlaws discovered. They could also start repairing and rebuilding the damaged rail and roadways while also placing key industrial town in the region. Sure, that infrastucture would need to be defended, but the immediate presence of the Law in the region can't but have a spreading effect. Sooner or later, A-C's own spreading areas of law and order will meet up with their pro-AC allies in the region and then it would just be a matter of mopping up the most isolated areas. Elemtilas 10:36, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Louisianne Claims

Is LA's "claim" QSS? I never found anything of that nature, and have been working through my entire time here on The Project under the premise that it was only squabbling AC and Tejas that claimed the area. Can you direct me to any such claims? (Mind, I'm fine to take your word on it, and as soon as Barry delivers a news item on the subject of AC moving in to clean up the area, Young can rail-road some legislation through, with all sorts of messy repercussions. :) ) BoArthur

This article states that Tejas, AC, and Louisianne claim "all or some" of the territory, so maybe it's not so much that LA claims the whole area, as just that they claim a small part of the eastern territory. Maybe the purchase of Alpes-Argentés settled the issue (i.e., that territory had been claimed by LA)? Nik 11:09, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Actually, the Alpes-Argentés were a purchase of Tejan land from Tejas, which the Queen and Parliament signed for as a means to fund their bankrupted country. I don't know what land LA would claim aside the sites that are ski resorts *here*. I think they'd rather renounce a claim and make a friend than continue an emnity. BoArthur 11:22, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Well, the though I'd had was that the territory was formerly disputed, and the dispute was settled by the sale of that territory, allowing both sides to save face, Tejas could say that they simply sold the territory, while Louisianne could say that Tejas renounced their claims, and that the money was a gift to the new government. Nik 11:39, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Could be that, then. It would make sense that's how JFY sold the idea to his corrupt constituents. Because they all are. Every Louisiannan would gladly sell his mother to the gypsies for a handful of louisians. BoArthur 11:57, 27 December 2005 (PST)

Name change

Why the name change from Desert to LG? What recent developments? Have I missed something? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 04:03, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Good question; see Media:Altacalifornia.jpg. --Quentin 04:25, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

I know that the *province* is called Lago Grande, but why move the page? Has the Deseret militia gone all IRA and quietened down or something? --Sikulu 06:08, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

See the news post about Salt City in Flames! on Conculture... BoArthur 06:10, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Wow! --Sikulu 06:12, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Alta California is the only one with land claims to the area. I figure that, considering the discussion that was had about "What to do about Deseret," the adjustments I've made to the article are moving things more in line with the concensus above. BoArthur 06:09, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Well, I'm not surprised that AC calls it "Province of Lago Grande". I'm still not entirely sure whether that would really warrant a name change, though. Even though AC may be the only country with claims on it, that doesn't mean that the international community has *recognised* those claims. In an international context, I'm sure the name "Deseret" is still pretty much in use, and will remain so for a very long time! —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 06:43, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

The official position of Louisianne is that it is sovereign AC territory, and Tejas offers no claims to it. I think that if anything it's like Abkhazia, Ajaria, or South Ossetia, where they claim autonomy, and no-one recognizes it, and the nation they're trying to seceed from doesn't do much to push them either way, and so they are de facto autonomous.

The movement of troops to stabilize the region might be seen by the warlords as a move to reclaim the region, but in reality, it's more a move on the part AC to dampen the fires to a low simmer, like it has been so they can focus on other things.

As for the name, yes. The region will forever be known as Deseret, just as the Democratic Republic of Congo will always be referred to as Congo-Zaire or Congo-Kinshasa. BoArthur 07:36, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Map of Control?

I think a map of who controls where in Deseret/LG is needed to clear things up. --Sikulu 07:07, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

On the face of it, that would be a good idea...it changes so much that any such map would be hopelessly out of date three hours before it saw light of day. I suppose I could endeavor to create it, after events of this summer...(*evil grin*) BoArthur

Perhaps you should do a series of maps, like the ones for Hayti, showing areas under the control of group X in a solid colour, and disputed/fluctuating areas in a series of stripes or something. --Sikulu 08:18, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

LG does seem to be like *there's* version of Afghanistan, doesn't it? --Sikulu 08:20, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Think Bosnia & Hercegovina, rather at the height of the war. BoArthur 08:41, 11 July 2006 (PDT)

Deseret Militia's flag

A flag was sent to the FOTW list that is used apparently by a mormon splinter group *here* (I think it was the Community of Christ/Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). It gave me the idea that the Deseret Fundamentalists might use a flag that echoes it (mainly as background prop when sending a video to the medias). --Marc Pasquin 12:03, 23 March 2007 (PDT)

Sure! it's mostly defunct now. BoArthur 14:14, 23 March 2007 (PDT)

I like that design, but as Daniel said, they're mostly defunct. It still could be used in "historical" footage, etc. Doobieous

Can we consider it official for the unrecognised country of deseret ?--Marc Pasquin 19:05, 8 June 2007 (PDT)

Perhaps we should do a variation? Zahir 23:03, 8 June 2007 (PDT)

I don't think we should do variations on all/most of the flags unless a variation is logical for some reason (for example, the country has religiuos symbols on the flag and it has different major religion in IB than in the real world). If there are no logical reasons for some updates then we could take it I believe. Abdul-aziz 09:51, 9 June 2007 (PDT)

A Variation, or just go with as is, I'm fine, either way.

Horses???

Are you telling me that Deseret/LG still relies on horses for transportation? Surely they're not THAT behind the times! Juan Martin Velez Linares 10:24, 11 September 2015 (CDT)

It was lawless up until Ouaren Gough and his crew of ruffians were arrested and put down. Between the Long-standing war across the Rio del Sangre with Tejas, AC devoted VERY little attention to Lago Grande. That's how Gough held it so long. But with that lack of infrastructure, it made it hard to get any sort of petroleum consistently into the area, thus horses were the much more reliable choice.

I think with the recent peace, and the increased sponsorship of settlement by AC, we'll see increased prospecting. They may even discover the coal around *here*'s Price and Carbon county, and the oil out in the Uintah Basin. But that's at least five years out. They're still building up the cities around the viable lakes, making plans for other diversion dams, and the like. BoArthur 13:20, 11 September 2015 (PDT)

Well, looking back, I do believe there's always the possibility of illicit oil (*cough*Louisianne*cough*) making its way to the rebels... I honestly think that pre-AC Deseret would be more "Mad Max" than "A Fistful of Dollars", if you know what I mean. Juan Martin Velez Linares 11:55, 15/2/2016 CST

I'm sure there was some trade, but it was a scarce enough commodity that it was used mainly for heating and electricity. Those rich enough to travel by car generally tried not to be in Deseret in the bad times. BoArthur 08:01, 17 February 2016 (PST)

Mormon Insurgency

Has it finally calmed down? Is the situation still like *here*'s wartime Bosnia? Or has it finally stabilised into something more orderly? Juan Martin Velez Linares 14:02, 23 September 2015 (CDT)

Think Kosovo, *here*, today. It's basically like that. Things are getting back to the normal most places enjoy. BoArthur 12:13, 23 September 2015 (PDT)

Who has de facto control of the region as of now?--Gwaell 10:07, 1 May 2020 (PDT)