User talk:Kyrmse

There could be room...what's your proposal? Post it to the groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture so we all know what it is, and we'll see about including you. :)

Xliponia in Ill Bethisad

Well, Xliponia has been added today (2005-05-03), though the official page at www.geocities.com/xliponia/ does not yet reflect a "real" geographical location. Maps, areas etc. will have to be changed.

Excellent. Here's one minor trick for you: if you want to sign something you wrote, you can very conveniently type three or four tildes in a row: ~~~ for just your user name, ~~~~ for your user name + timestamp. Cheers, IJzeren Jan 16:28, 3 May 2005 (PDT)

But where in Ill Bethisad?

Where, exactly, in Europe has Xliponia ended up? And what's the reason for them ending up with a decimal currency- that's highly bizarre for IB. Deiniol 10:35, 4 May 2005 (PDT)

But *where* in Ill Bethisad?

Where, exactly, has Xliponia ended up? And what's the reason for them having a decimal currency? Deiniol 10:36, 4 May 2005 (PDT)

Here we are! Xliponia is on the Ionian coast (see Xliponia and related articles) and the xlipo is duodecimal, being divided into 120 sulti. Kyrmse 10:17, 13 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Polyglot!

Jan, thanks for the Batavian text! I just don't want to give the impression that I speak Hollands - Po, En, De & Eo I dó speak, and are the languages on my personal site (on sóme of the pages anyway). Kyrmse 12:48, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Oh, that shouldn't be a problem! If you ever get in touch with someone whose language is Dutch, s/he in all likeliness will also be able to communicate in English. And you can always redirect them to me!

Funny you don't mention Xl among the languages you speak. I had the impression that you can get away with it quite well! Of course, I can't claim to speak Wenedyk at all; never even tried, in fact. But I can write in it pretty quickly.

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 13:59, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Re: LusoAmerican Union

I believe that all matters South America have been de facto Chlewey. I don't think he'd object to some help, as he's a very happily and busily occupied new father. BoArthur

Obrigado

Bien, su español no me parece para nada malo... mucho mejor que mi portugués el cual lo leo con alguna facilidad pero no sería capaz de escribir una o. ;-)

Me parece bien la idea de recibir ayuda en la parte de la América portuguesa. Sin embargo hay divergencias entre lo establecido en correos anteriores y las nuevas contribuciones.

En un correo a la lista conculture titulado IB: Ibero America through 19th century. había propuesto una historia diferente para Brasil. Esto no ha sido subido todavía a la wiki.

En la historia, básicamente Napoleon invade a Portugal antes de que la familia real pueda escapar a Brasil. Esto hace que el proceso independentista de Brasil *allá* sea similar al proceso independentista de la América hispana *acá*.

El correo editado decía:

In the beginning of the 19th century, the political unrest in Europe expanded to their American colonies. When the Corsican Giant, in union with Aragon, invaded Castilla and Portugal in 1809, king Alonso XII of Castilla fleed to New Granada and organized the courts there. King Pedro from Portugal was imprisoned by Napoleon who put his brother Joseph in the crown.

Aragon had been in Union with the French Republic since 1802 after the peace of Barcelona; and then declared war against the Triple Alliance (Federated Kingdoms, Austria, Russia). This led to the Saxon attempt to take Buenos Aires. While the Saxons failed to set foot on Rio de La Plata, they managed an effective blockade that practically cut of Buenos Aires from Barcelona.

The Portuguese colonies declared their allegiance to king Pedro, but most of those juntas were actually seeking for autonomy or even independence. São Paulo was the first in declare total independence in July 1811, followed by Bahia and Fortaleza. Rio de Janeiro reminded as a royalist stronghold.

(...)

By the defeat of Napoleon, Pedro came back to Portugal and attempted to call the rebel colonies to the sheepfold. (...)

By 1818, Pedro has brought back the Norteastern colonies, but São Paulo reminded rebel. Many rebels in Northeastern Brazil escaped also to the Jungles of Maranhão and even to Castillan territory.

(...)

From the Beginning the Rioplatences supported the rebellion in São Paulo. This led to a Portuguese invasion of Uruguay in 1819, short after Castilla demilitarized Buenos Aires.

São Paulo finally defeated the royalists at Rio de Janeiro in 1822, freeing Uruguay. However the devolution was not automatic, as Aragon had not recognized the new Republic of Brazil. Rio de La Plata was not allowed to recognize or sent ambassadors to foreign powers, but by 1827, Brazil handed Uruguay back to Rio de La Plata.

Portugal reminded in control of the Northeastern colonies, and nominally in control of the Amazon region, but the rebels where never really controlled there, and by 1824, the Republic of Equador was proclaimed, with capital in Belem. Portugal attempted several campaigns against the rebels from Equador, but failed each time, getting weaker. These campaigns were never popular to the colonists in the Northeast, and when the Portuguese parliament banned slavery in 1846, the Northeast insurrected. Portugal could not manage to ride a succesfull counteroffensive and by 1860 just recognized the de facto independence of the republics of Equador and Recife.

(...)

In 1876, Aragon granted full independence to Rio de La Plata, but Rioplatences kept the Aragonese king as their monarch.

By 1900, the situation in South America follows:

• New Granada: Nine provinces: Quito, Popayan, Antioquia, Cundinamarca, Boyaca, Magdalena, Panama, Guatemala and Maracaibo. Each one is an integral part of the Kingdom of Castilla & Leon. They do not form a political unit, but commonly they are called New Granada and recognize Santa Fe in Cundinamarca as their common capital.
• The Republic of Venezuela: former Castilian colony, is a presidentialist republic, ruled by a dictator in 1900.
• Cambrian Guyana: Colony of Kemr.
• Saxon Guyana: Colony of England.
• Dutch Guyana: Colony of the Netherlands.
• French Guyana: Colony of France.
• Republic of Equador: former Portuguese colony, is a presidentialist republic and joins the Brazilian confederation.
• Kingdom of Peru: former Castilian colony, is an elective monarchy.
• Kingdom of Suyo: former Castilian colony, is a constitutional monarchy ruled by and Inca.
• Republic of Recife: former Portuguese colony, is a parliamentary republic and joins the Brazilian confederation.
• Kingdom of Charcas: former Castilian colony is a parliamentary monarchy with and Aymara majority.
• Republic of Chile: former Castilian colony, is a presidentialist republic ruled by a dictator in 1900.
• Guarani Republic of Paraguay: former Aragonese colony, is a parliamentary republic with a Guarani majority.
• Republic of Sao Paulo: former Portuguese colony, is a presidentialist republic and joins the Brazilian confederation.
• Republic of Rio de Janeiro: former Portuguese colony, is a parliamentary republic and joins the Brazilian confederation.
• Western State of Uruguay: former Aragonese colony, is an autonomous state of Rio de La Plata joined to the Brazilian confederation.
• Republic of Rio de La Plata: former Aragonese colony, is a parliamentary monarchy in a personal union with the Kingdom of Aragon & Navarra.
• Kingdom of Araucaria: never a colony, is a constitutional monarchy.

Sobre este correo han habido cambios, pero no cambios radicales sobre Lusoamérica... sólo cambios de nombre:

• Recife --> Bahia
• Rio de La Plata --> Brasil
• Sao Paulo --> Paraná
• Brazilian conferation --> Lusoamerican Union.

— Carlos Th 20:48, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Oh, dear!!! I'll have to digest all this first, before I make any changes to the Lusoamerican Union... Muchísimas gracias anyway, and you'll hear from me! Kyrmse 06:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Speaking in tongues, eh? Bah! ;))

Anyway, nice to hear from you, Carlos! How's the baby doing?

Actually, I've one question to you. The Factbook is still down, but most data listed there are also in the wiki by now. But there's one exception: the map of South America. I have a copy of it on my computer, but I'm not sure if that's really the latest version (Nea Illenicia ain't there for example). I can upload it myself if you like, but I'd rather not do that without your permission. Besides, there is the disadvantage that there are no names on the map. So, if it's not too much asked, would it be possible for you to upload the latest version of the map yourself?

Or am I blundering now, and the map ís still around somewhere?

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 23:54, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Overseer of Portuguese America

I have step down from my role as regent of the Portuguese America to let Ronald Kyrmse take full overseer status over Bahia, Brasil, Equador, and Paraná, as well as on the Lusoamerican Union.

Thank you all.

— Carlos Th (comments) 13:34, 19 Jul 2005 (PDT), Regent of Castilian and Aragonese South America and Aragon, and Overseer of Castile-Leon and dependencies.

Thank yóu! And a difficult task it is going to be... Kyrmse 13:36, 19 Jul 2005 (PDT)

News Article Idea

I have an idea for a news article wherein an infamously rich Xliponian or Lusoamerican adventurer is in focus. I was going to ask you via email for your approval and for some details. Normally, I would email IB members personally via the Conculture list, but I haven't seen your participation there in a while. So could you email me instead? Boreanesia 02:54, 23 Aug 2005 (PDT)

IF you like, you can send me queries over kyrmse@gmail.com! Kyrmse 09:20, 23 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Pollinc...

Hmmm, you really caught my attention with that! But unfortunately, Jassify-3 doesn't work for me! --IJzeren Jan 12:06, 6 Sep 2005 (PDT)

BTW, re:LOTR - Funny how completely different two Romance language can be! :)

I had uploaded a file called Jassify-3.MID that worked fine for me, but maybe now I changed it (and the link) to Jassify-3.mid it will work... If not, let me know! 8^) Kyrmse 12:42, 6 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Still the same problem, unfortunately... :(( --IJzeren Jan 14:32, 6 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Try to access http://www.geocities.com/xliponia/Jassify-3.mid Kyrmse 19:20, 6 Sep 2005 (PDT)

It's funny: here at work I could listen to it, but at home it still doesn't work. Perhaps I should update my Windows Media Player. Anyway, very funny piece! Did you make it yourself? If so, I didn't know you were such a multi-talent! --IJzeren Jan 05:49, 8 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Oh, thanks for the multi-talent part! One does the best one can... ;-) But seriously: I díd make it myself, but so far it's the only one presentable in midi format. I used MusiNum, an (as you say) "funny" programme you can find at http://reglos.de/musinum/. Have fun yourself! Of course, Pollinc (do you recognise the name?!) will go on and on composing, so you may hear more from him out of his studio in Atmar... Kyrmse 08:04, 8 Sep 2005 (PDT)

That would be great! But frankly, no, I don't recognise the name. It reminds me of a combination of Claude Debussy and Francis Poulenc, but that's probably not what you're after... :) --IJzeren Jan 12:16, 8 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Well, no - not that the style is similar, but the name of Claudius Pollinc was meant as a homage to Claude Bolling... Kyrmse 12:34, 8 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Never heard of the bloke! But I guess I should do something about that... Cheers, IJzeren Jan 12:40, 8 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Thank you for my Xliponian name

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 06:04, 30 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Xliponian Folklore?

I was going to fiddle with some things about Brom Stoker and some other classic "vompire" tales. *Here* the undead are mostly associated with Styria (in Austria) and Transylvania (in Romania), the latter due to Stoker's novel (although he too began with the idea of a vampire from Styria).

What I'd like to do is make Xliponia the place people think of when they hear the word vompire. This would involve simply setting some stories there. Would you mind? And if you do not, I'd like a few questions answered if I may? For example, I'd like to see some Xliponian names (or variations thereof):

• Carmilla
• Hannah
• Louis
• Radu
• Vlad/Vladimir
• Dragon (or son of)
• Devil/Demon (or son of)
• Basilisk/Griffin/Wolf/etc. (or son of)

Regarding the latter, I'd love it if you could just offer what is the most phonetically pleasing variation. Let me know what you think? Zahir 21:29, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

<In haste:> Perfectly OK to me! Use: Harmila, Ganna, Luis, Raut, Blat <seen as XL name, not variation on some Slavic theme>, Traho (son = Vil-Traho), Tiapoul (son = Vil-Tiapoul), Pasiliq/Crivo<the XL royal heraldic beast - see Xliponia>/Lup (or Vil-...). For pronunciation, see Xliponian. Kyrmse 05:07, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Okay, mucho thanks. You might want to take a gander at Vompire. Heh heh. Zahir 08:43, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Just for fun, you might want to take a look at the recent small change I made vis-a-vis NoMoreEagleZ. Zahir 10:41, 25 November 2005 (PST)

I really appreciated the LotR reference. Kyrmse 11:04, 25 November 2005 (PST)

Thought you might. I suddenly remembered that the Beatles were big fans and even wanted to star in a movie based on the book. Just as well that never happened. They wanted Twiggy as Galadriel!!!!! Zahir 11:07, 25 November 2005 (PST)

Hi Ronald. I was wondering if in the Brom Stoker article there was something or someone in Xliponian history who might have inspired Lord Vorlock in some way? Just a question. Zahir 19:10, 19 November 2006 (PST)

Bovair

Ronald, it seems that Bovair is involved in some negotiations in the Waddeneilanden Project. I've explained a bit of what's going on on this page, as well as the Talk:Bovair page. Please let me know what you think. BoArthur 22:44, 13 January 2006 (PST)

Bovair has accepted taking part in the project! You may proceed... I think this will strengthen our role as thé country to visit if you want something different, and thé country which - despite its size - is continually involved in projects that are at the forefront of technology, ecology or (let's face it) just plain originality. Qau! Kyrmse 04:56, 14 January 2006 (PST)

Maps of Ill Bethisad

Dear sir, right honorable Ardurylak de Mersdon,

I do apologize for the error that you feel has been made. Due to the nature of our map-making, the temporal wave that was generated at the arrival of Xliponia into the Ill Bethisad timeline had not yet propagated to our humble office here in Nieuw Amsterdam. It arrived in the last hour, and as you will see, our maps reflect the world as it currently is. We apologize for any and all umbrage this delay may have caused.

Deiniol Carthoreffig
Director, Int'l Community of Cartographers,
Nieuw Amsterdam, Castreleon New, NAL-SLC
Ill Bethisad, Polycosm.

Petru I

You might want to take a look at this. Quite simply, Richard and I assumed that--like so many Balkan countries *here*--Moldova would have had a foreign prince hoisted upon them. Looking around, we thought to give Manuel II of Portugal a younger brother named Pedro. Zahir 19:15, 25 March 2006 (PST)

I like the idea very much! Kyrmse 06:28, 26 March 2006 (PST)

Xliponian Rank Insignia

Ronald, the question came up in the Conculture list about Xliponian ranks. Have you given any thoughts to same? Are there any specific criteria you'd like to see? For that matter, what would the translation be of different ranks in Xliponian itself? Zahir 08:36, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

I'm thinking seriously about rank insignia and denominations. It so happens I have next to no time at the moment, but will draw something as soon as I can! Kyrmse 11:01, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Considering it had military backing from the FK, its ranks might be based (with appropriate national symbols) on one of its Kingdoms (as the old greek ones *here* were based on the UK):

http://ib.frath.net/w/Image:FK-rank-insignias.PNG (Cambria, England)

http://ib.frath.net/w/Image:Sc-ranks-officers.png (Scotland 1)

http://ib.frath.net/w/Image:Sc-ranks-non-officers.png (Scotland 2)

Alternatively, it could have drawn inspiration from one of it larger (physicaly and militarily) neighbours of old like the ottoman or austro-dalmatian empire. --Marc Pasquin 12:11, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

My impression is the Xliponia is most definitely a Balkan state, and as such would most likely draw upon the latter. Actually--with Ronald's permission--I'd like to try my hand at designing something. If I may? Zahir 12:26, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Do you need any specific image references ? --Marc Pasquin 12:56, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Wouldn't mind some. I've been looking up Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and such from pre WWI. Zahir 13:12, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Greece: british-style insignias (not realy aplicable *there*).

Bulgaria: russian style.

Serbia was part of Austro-hungarian empire and used its insignias. after its union into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, russian style shoulder boards.

Austro-Hungarian rank (which I assume would be the same as austro-dalmatian *there*) can be seen here:

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/badges/badges.htm (army)

http://www.medals.lava.pl/ins/at/atn18.htm (navy)

--Marc Pasquin 13:50, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Thanks, much. I've already noted the tendency to use six-pointed stars as something of a theme. And the more extensive use of embroidery. Zahir 14:11, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

No worries. By the way, considering its small population size, it probably wouldn't have more then one General-level rank. Looking at countries *here* with a similar population size, none have more then the equivalent of a major general and some have a colonel has top rank. --Marc Pasquin 14:22, 29 April 2006 (PDT)

Okay, this is a little crude but I thought it might be a good starting point. Ronald? Everyone? What do you think?

Version One - Xliponian Royal Army

A little over the top with the griffon heads, but otherwise very good! Seth 6:01, 30 April 2006

Very good indeed! But please wait for my own proposal - forthcoming as soon as I have the time - which will certainly be inspired by yours. (I think I have a bit of a right of way here, haven't I?)

Next week, I think. Will not be very far off from yours.

Kyrmse 15:53, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

Take your time, you're the caretaker of xliponia so the last word is yours.

Juts my opinion, the officiers' ones look good but the lower ranks are a bit too "radical" to my mind (which the military tend not to be) and do not gel well together. I think using similar stars to the officers's one (maybe just in a different colour/size) would be better. Also, the one-side border looks odd, sort of unfinished. Maybe just thin horizontal red line near the bottom (to go with the master sergeant one). --Marc Pasquin 17:11, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

Looking again: the griffins which are not mere "heads erased" should be griffins passant, not segreant (which for griffins is the equivalent of rampant as applied to e.g. lions, in heraldry). Also I would tone down the embroidery a bit. I have a (tentative) whole hierarchy drawn up, involving Royal Army, Navy and Air Force, and plan to have the insignia similar among forces, only with differences of colours (we Xliponians are a simple people - not modest, mind you! - differently from such pyrotechnicians as the Veneds and others). Watch this space. Proposals, of course, will be welcome. But I reserve the last word to myself, and imagine I will have everyone's agreement on that. Cheers!!! (This on my 54th birthday - 30 April) Kyrmse 17:05, 30 April 2006 (PDT)

---

I would like to put up this proposal of Xliponian military rank insignia. Note that the Army wears khaki, the Navy (of course) navy blue, and the Air Force grey. The insignia from Army colonel to lieutenant use quinquefoils; the Air Force equivalents use the "X" sign found on military planes (singly, as on the lieutenant's insignia).

Kyrmse's Version - Army, Navy, Air Force

Names of the ranks translate as follows:

ARMY
Marshal - General - Colonel - Lieutenant-Colonel - Major - Captain - Lieutenant
1st Sergeant - 2nd Sergeant - Corporal - Soldier

NAVY
Admiral - Vice-Admiral - Commodore - Lieutenant-Commodore - Commandant - Captain - Lieutenant
1st Sergeant - 2nd Sergeant - Corporal - Sailor

AIR FORCE
Marshal of the Air - Brigadier - Colonel - Lieutenant-Colonel - Major - Captain - Lieutenant
1st Sergeant - 2nd Sergeant - Corporal - Airman

Comments welcome! Kyrmse 13:21, 5 May 2006 (PDT)

Head's Up

Thought you might like to take a look at Tuscany. Zahir 13:20, 20 May 2006 (PDT)

Vis-a-vis Tuscany, we have a few questions only you can answer because they have to do with Xliponia. Zahir 20:22, 23 May 2006 (PDT)

Shoot, and I'll try to answer - as soon as time is available! ;-) Kyrmse 10:47, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Two questions:

* The Tuscane Ducal family had a big fight circa 1908 when the Grand Duke died and there was a question over who should succeed. At then end of GWI, the succession was settled. The Grand Duke's eldest child, Antonia, had married someone related to the Xliponian royal family. Their son, Antonio, was installed in 1919. But--who was his father? Any ideas?

* The Ducal arms are oval, but with a smaller oval shield atop that one. The smaller shield should have some kind of arms suggested by the Xliponian ones. But, how are such changed dileanated based on degree of relation, etc? For example, would it be traditional to simply change the colors, or the pose of the griffin or add some kind of a border, or what? Zahir 11:08, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Antonio's father would be King Otho V's youngest brother (among a total of 7 children), Iuli (1869-1932). Now, about the heraldry, I am not exactly an expert - other members may be - but I'd think you could use the griffin in different colours (say, or [gold = yellow] langued [with a tongue of] gules [red]). Kyrmse 14:00, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

I've put a few links near the bottom of this page for system used in france, scotland and england that might give you an idea. :

http://ib.frath.net/w/Image_talk:Flag_Tuscany.PNG

--Marc Pasquin 18:28, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Please Let me know if what I used was okay. Zahir 18:48, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

In any case, the House should not be Habsburg-Bovlai, but Habsburg-Bailbiret (The House of Bailbiret is the current reigning dynasty). Kyrmse 15:14, 5 June 2006 (PDT)

Done. Thankee! Zahir 19:41, 5 June 2006 (PDT)

Another Royal Match?

I'm seriously thinking that Elena I of Muntenia perhaps should have a Xliponian spouse. They probably wed while she was in exile prior to 1990. But this needn't be a member of Xliponia's royal family. Might, for example, he be the scion of a noble family in Xliponia? Let me know when you get a chance. Thanks in advance! Zahir 22:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Try the de Mersdon family. Supposedly derived from some companion of Edward of Mersdon (later King Etuert I), come over from England with him and settled in Xliponia instead of going on to the Holy Land. A noble family at any rate. Kyrmse 12:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Do they have a title? If so, what is it? Do they have a coat of arms? If not, there's one I designed you might like--a white hippogriff on a black and green field. http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1198/newarmskl4.jpg Zahir 14:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Zahir, I couldn't view your image - much as I would like to! Kyrmse 12:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Here they are. Zahir 15:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Very good! You may recall that the present arms of Xliponia were originally those of the Earl Edward of Mersdon (later King Etuert I) - or a griffin passant gules armed, eyed and langued azure (yes, such is the language of blazons, I'm afraid). So I'm quite certain that these arms - vert on seven pallets sable a griffin statant argent - were those of Baron Morcar de Mersdon, a cousin of Edward. Very fond of griffins, we always have been. Kyrmse 18:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Your kind words are much appreciated, although I must point out that the critter in question is a hippogriff rather than a griffin (said to be the offspring of a horse and a griffin). So might I presume that the de Mersdons are nobility in present-day Xliponia? What might their title be? Honestly, I don't know how Xliponians assign noble rank. <g> Zahir 03:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Aha! Of course, the hippogriff rears its glorious head. Yes, the de Mersdons are nobility. In fact, the current head of the house is Duke Haio de Mersdon, born 1961, a bachelor still (!!! There's glory for you - Humpty Dumpty would say). One family member, the notorious Ardurylak de Mersdon, rejoices in his pseudo-neo-Arthurian name and in travelling throughout the world - he is sometimes seen in Xliponia... Kyrmse 12:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Ronald, I love reading your posts! You're a generous man with a lot of flare! Heh heh. I had a name and a birthdate for Elena I's hubby (probably Prince Consort--we'll see): Luc de Mersdon, born 1970. Might he be Duke Haio's younger brother? For simplicity's sake, I would rather he not be the Duke's heir, so presumably there is a sibling in between, if that matches up with your information? Looking forward to your feedback, good and noble sir! Zahir 17:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, most kind sir, for your appreciative words! Yes, the young Luc will do. As I see, he has in fact already been added to the entry on Elena I. So be it then! As we say in old Bovlai: Qau! Kyrmse 19:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)