Talk:Republic of the Two Crowns

How is the king elected? Who is eligible to be king? And who is eligible to vote for king? Nik 14:15, 10 Feb 2005 (PST)

The king is elected by the 99 members of the Senate, and then confirmed by the whole Sejm (of which the Senate is part). The Senate is the House of Lords of the RTC.

Who is eligible to be king? Theoretically anyone. In practice, only members of a small number of very influential noble families are elected king, but there have been several occasions when a foreigner became king (Napoleon is just one example). A commoner could become king as well, although I don't think that has happened yet.

Who is eligible to become a Senator? Only members of the nobility. The Senate is not democratically elected, but appoints his own members. The best chance to become a Senator happens when the representative of your family or clan dies.

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 23:31, 10 Feb 2005 (PST)

Internal Structures

Does the RTC have an Internal Security Agency like Poland *here*? BoArthur 21:58, 13 November 2005 (PST)

Yes, that would be the Oficz Dziefięcy Statu (ODS). --IJzeren Jan 23:42, 13 November 2005 (PST)

Transcarpathia

Please note, that, as far as I am aware, Transcarpathia was never a part of the PLC at any time.--Sikulu

Yes, that's right. But keep in mind that Transcarpathia's history has been roughtly the same as *here* until the First Great War. It was part of Hungary through almost its entire existence. In IB it remained part of Hungary even longer. So what happened? Hungary was more or less beaten in the First Great War, but didn't lose as much of its territory as *here*. Transcarpathia remained within its borders, as did Slevania, *there*'s counterpart of Slovakia. Hungary was again at the wrong side in the Second Great War, and again, it was beaten. And this time, it did lose a lot of territory: Slevania became independent, and so did Transcarpathia, both as Russian satellite states. However, due to the dealings of Visby (*there*'s Jalta), Russia had to withdraw from it, and a referendum was held in Transcarpathia. *Here*, a similar referendum was held after the First World War, resulting in the region being added to Czecho-Slovakia.

Well, as far as I know the referendum was conducted among American Rusyns in US (namely American Greek-catholic Union in Pittsburg, lead by Grigoriy Zhatkovich), was accpeted by Wilson, Masaryk and Hungarian delegation and later was approved in peace treaty signed in September 1919 in Saint-Germain. Not even after the WW2 there was a real referendum. JV Stalin, although he committed him-self to recognise Czechoslovakia in its pre-war borders, kicked off all representatives of CSR government on 8th December 1944 from Transcarpathia because of fake referendum (in fact a meeting of regional national committees under supervision of NKVD) from 26th November 1944. Jan II. 07:05, 15 December 2005 (PST)

In IB, it resulted in Transcarpathia become part of the RTC. That choice was not as weird as it would seem. The country, after all, was mostly inhabited by Rusyns, and the RTC had a long tradition of tolerance regarding national minorities. Besides, the alternatives (Slevania, Ukraine, Hungary) were all totalitarian SNOR satellites, and the country would be far too small for total independence. Therefore, the RTC seemed like a logical choice at the time. Even from a nationalist point of view, since Slevania was Romance-speaking, and the Rusyns are closest to the Ukrainians of Western Ukraine (Galicia).

In 1956, Transcarpathia was added to Galicia. It has always remained a somewhat problematic territory within the RTC though, which doesn't fit well with the rest, even within the rest of Galicia. It has its own political party, the ORVIL.

Sorry that I can't answer the rest of your (Germany-related) questions, Sikulu. The person who would best be able to answer you is Kristian Jensen, but he is pretty busy these days. Thanks for your interest, anyway. In the meantime, why don't you tell us a little about yourself?

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 06:10, 15 December 2005 (PST)

It explicitly mentions somewhere in IB (I think in the main site) that Transcarpathia was annexed by Hungary as a result of one of the partitions of the RTC. I don't know where they got that idea from (it was probably just confusion)?--Sikulu

No, that's completely wrong. Hungary didn't even participate in the partitions! But I think I've found the text you're referring to: Galicia (RTC)#Old stuff. These are just fragments from old discussions that took place in the past on Conculture, when many facts (especially w.r.t. Hungary) hadn't been discovered yet. Like the header suggests, old stuff, really. You can take anything written in Hungary and History of the RTC for canonical, though. --IJzeren Jan 03:06, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Sorry about that. Cheers anyway. --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 13:27 (GMT)

Nothing to apologise for. You couldn't be expected to know those things. --IJzeren Jan 06:31, 16 December 2005 (PST)

More maps

Are you going to put up more maps of the RTC, such as the Partitions etc. Did 'The Deluge' happen *there*? --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 16:02 (GMT)

Several maps of the RTC, including the partitions, are already here. And yes, the Deluge happened also *there*. --IJzeren Jan 08:05, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Sorry. They weren't there when I last checked. --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 16:09 (GMT)

Population data

I guess the percentage of Lithuanians would be larger in Vilnija as they makes up the majority in most of itsland except the south (and city of Vilnius is multiethnic), while percentage of Lithuanians in Suslewia should be lower I guess. In general by the way, maybe Yiddish-speaking population numbers should be lower - as there was never the Roman expulsion of Jews so Jewish diaspora is smaller in general, as well there never were laws such as in Russian Empire in XIX age which permitted Jews to settle only in the western parts of the Empire (that is, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Poland). So, the number of Yiddish should be lowered or there can be some explaination why so many Jews came to the RTC maybe (as well by the way many Jews would probably have adopted Venedic, Lithuanian, Ukrainean languages depending on area - maybe there could be even some Jewish dialect of Venedic in a similar way Yiddish formed as a Germanic dialect). In Samogitia instead of some Yiddish there could be some German/Saxon population (less than was in previous data probably), as Klaipėda was part of Germany prior to Second Great War and as I understand in IB the expulsions of Germans from East Prussia did not happen. Abdul-aziz 12:25, 19 December 2005 (PST)

I have already been the number of Jews quite a lot, both in Veneda and in Lithuania. But regarding Vilnija: you mentioned that Vilnius has a population of approx. 1 million, and that about 1/3 of its population is Jewish. That's how I got to a number of 315,000. And regarding their language: pressure towards assimilation has always been significantly smaller than *here*, and to be honest, by writing "Yiddish" is basically mean "Jews". But I guess the number can be decreased a little even further. As for the number of Germans in Prusi: yes, you're right about that. Frankly, I forgot! I'll correct that. And I'll move some Lithuanians from Suślewia to Wilnia (BTW, the name "Suślewia" will be changed due to several changes in Wenedyk, but I haven't figured out yet what the new name will be). I'll respond to your reply on Talk:Žemaitija tomorrow. --IJzeren Jan 14:42, 19 December 2005 (PST)

Thanks for altering statistics somewhat. As for Vilnius, those were speculations based on real percentage of Jews in Vilnius prior to World War 2, which was close to 40% of population; however I assume with the non existance of the mentioned historical events the number of Jews would be lower (and as well due to the fact that Vilnius grew due to urbanization post Second Great War and this its Lithuanian, Belarussian populations increased, while less so for Jewish population as most of Jews were urban dwellers). To decide on how much Jews there should be, however, it would be interesting to know how many of them there are elsewhere in Europe (e.g. in Holy Roman Empire) if that was ever decided. Is there much difference between German and Saxon btw? Abdul-aziz 07:24, 20 December 2005 (PST)

Yes. I've lowered the number of Jews again. When I originally created those figures, I wasn't fully aware of the consequences of no less than two Jewish states in the world. We discussed this with Steg, and as I remember, the outcome was that there ARE Jews in Central and Eastern Europe, but less than *here*. Same would probably go for the HRE, which might also help explain the absence of a Holocaust *there*.

I've also moved a lot of Belarussians from Wilnia to Suślewia and Lithuanians vice versa. BTW, keep in mind that this time I've treated the Sudovians as a separate nation (but still one very close to the Lithuanian; the way I see it, most Sudovians are thoroughly lithuanised anyway).

So, can we establish the current figures as definitive?

BTW, this page does not contain all data. If you are interested, I have a document containing the absolute figures for each province. The data on RTC are based on it. --IJzeren Jan 08:32, 20 December 2005 (PST)

What do you mean by a document with absolute figures? I think there should still be some less Jews in Vilnija (I don't see that you would have lowered the number again, or maybe I do a mistake somewhere). The numbers of Sudovians and especially Kashubians could probably be somewhat higher as they seem to make majority in relatively large areas; while the number of Czechs in Volhynia is too high I guess. Some more corrections might be needed; but then again, I think everything could be explained somehow (e.g. the high number of Lithuanians in Suslewia might be explained by some migration there, e.g. from the eastern areas after they were occupied by Russia after the partitions and such). We just need to create those explainations. Abdul-aziz 01:39, 23 December 2005 (PST)

A word document with the population of the provinces according to their nationality in absolute figures.

Yes, I did modify the numbers somewhat. Nothing extreme, so if you want I can still lower the number of Jews in Vilnija. But frankly, I think the current figures shoulnd't be altered too much. Keep in mind that the Jews usually fit in well with the nationalities that surround them. Some of them still speak Yiddish, but most of the Jews in Veneda speak Wenedyk, in Lithuania Lithuanian, and in Galicia Ukrainian. In the table at the end of the page, I guess I should substitute "language" with nationality.

I know very little about the Sudovians. If you say there are more of them, then let it be so. My basic idea was that most Sudovians have been Lithuanised to such a degree that they are counted as Lithuanians and not as separate Sudovians. The latter are merely a remnant.

The figures for Kashubian are largely based on *here*. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 03:18, 23 December 2005 (PST)

Ok, the current figures are ok I think Abdul-aziz 06:16, 27 December 2005 (PST)

COA proposal

I’m assuming that RTC CoA is still a proposal, but what with flag? Could we make something like Kerm’s flag contest? I have some ideas and even some work done. Follow by white rabbit 05:09, 4 March 2006 (PST)

The reason for the Kemrese flag contest had a different background: as it turned out, the previous Kemrese flag was in violation of copyright, and so a new one had to be made. That's not the case with the RTC flag: it was made by myself and then a better version was made by Marc. As far as I am concerned, that flag won't be replaced within something else. But as for your ideas and work done, shoot away! As far as I am concerned, any proposal can be of use somewhere: as a provincial flag, as a historical flag, as a political flag, etc. (and frankly, I have my doubts about the flags of Veneda and Lithuania). —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 11:45, 4 March 2006 (PST)

OK I see your point. I have a proposal for COA (the present one is still marked as proposal) of RTC and a royal banner but they won’t correspond in quality with flag, so I prepare ‘upgrade’ of present one… Maybe the simplest way to show you what I’m thinking about will be sending those images to you by e-mail.Follow by white rabbit 12:01, 4 March 2006 (PST)

You can do that of course, but you might as well upload them here. That way, others can see it too. BTW, I wouldn't object a priori against some very minor change (something on the shield of the Vytis or so). Just show what you have, and we'll take about it. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 12:06, 4 March 2006 (PST)

I was thinking about something like that (all images are made of free sampels and my own work) Follow by white rabbit 02:30, 5 March 2006 (PST)

• 

  royal banner

• 

  COA

• 

  civil flag

• 

  state falg

I really like those! The state flag looks a wee bit less "crowded" than the current version. Deiniol 08:35, 5 March 2006 (PST)

Nice indeed! What was the reason for changing the crown? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 11:52, 5 March 2006 (PST)

The reason was simple, I couldn't find any more or less simular to yours and this one was free to dowland and the most simular to *here* Polish crown. Follow by white rabbit 13:58, 5 March 2006 (PST)

Not surprised you didn't find it: I made it so it would look different (in the same way that french, english and other royal crowns all had small differences from one another.) Deiniol right, it does look less crowded.

One question reagarding the crown, that was made by arnaud for his european heraldic site, are you him ?--Marc Pasquin 17:31, 5 March 2006 (PST)

No I'm not him, but this crown was taken from other source (free sample from vectorimages.com) his version is more 3D and I'm assuming that its preety posible that he bought thoes image there and remade or from some other source (this crown is very popular on web) Follow by white rabbit 10:32, 6 March 2006 (PST)

My original crown was, I think, taken from here, and later redone by Marc to undo my blatant copyvio. Anyway, Jakób, it's not that I don't like your proposals, but I'm afraid I can't and won't go along with changing the national flag at this point. The reason for changing the flag of Kemr was that it had to be done; the only reason for changing the RTC flag would be the fancy of the day, and that's something I generally prefer to avoid. Besides, changing it at this point would invalidate quite a lot of other work done (see FOIB), and as far as I am concerned, these should be protected by QSS just like any written stuff.

A second thing: I know that the current flag is crowded, but that's something I did on purpose. I never intended for that flag to be particularly beautiful, rather baroque and a little old-fashioned. From that point of view, I don't see the additional value of your proposal.

That should of course not mean that your proposals be discarded. On the contrary, I'm sure they could be used in some historical sense. After all, when kings change, the crown sometimes changes as well.

As for your royal banner, I'm inclined to adopt it. I like it very much! And I'm not much of a heraldist, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be a problem that the crown in the royal banner is different from the crown in the national COA/flag. Nor am I sure if it's really a problem if the crown in the national COA is different from the national flag, for that matter. Especially in a country so full of inconsistencies as the RTC! Perhaps Marc could tell us more. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 02:52, 7 March 2006 (PST)

OK I understand it.Follow by white rabbit 11:34, 7 March 2006 (PST)

Its rare but there are a few examples of flags using a different crown then the national COA. These are however due to specific reasons and not to design choices:

* Tradition: a particular organisation kept using the same flag even after the COA was changed (usualy a sign of reactionary tendency).

* Distinction: Different crown are use to represent different organisation. These however are not just slight design difference but completely different type such as a royal crown on the national COA and a Naval one on the merchant ensign.

* reproduction: complex design in flag are often badly replicated by flag makers especialy if situated oversea. Other cases make some small changes if reproduction of the national flag is illegal in a given country ().

One of the reason why variations outside of these situations don't usualy occur is that unlike heraldry, modern flags are not defined by their written description but by their contruction sheet (which gives precise measurement). In term of the COA though, the blason is the only "legal" definition of its design in most countries. This mean that its quite possible to find variation in the way the eagle and knights might be drawn over the years without it being due to legal changes. --Marc Pasquin 16:08, 7 March 2006 (PST)

Nobility

So nobility still exists in the RTC? In real history, nobility priviliges were abolished in interwar Poland. Did this happen in RTC? In modern Poland, few people identify themselves with nobility, but since RTC never suffered from the Holocaust and communism, I'd guess it's culture should be more similar to interwar Poland then modern Poland - and nobility was much more prominent in interwar Poland then it is in modern Poland. Would it still be called 'szlachta'?--Piotrus 18:01, 4 March 2006 (PST)

User IJzerenJan will probably answer your questions better, as he written many RTC related things, but however I assume the situation in modern Poland and RTC was different, as Poland did not exist for a more than a century, while RTC did exist continuously; now, for example, in Britain or Spain there can be association to the noble families in the real world. As well, due to the fact that in IB monarchies remains in many countries, the role of thenobilities generally would be stronger I assume. Liberum veto and such things, of course, does not exist in the RTC. As for the border changes, you might want to read History of the RTC here: http://www.geocities.com/wenedyk/ib/rtc_hist.html; it has the maps. Abdul-aziz 03:38, 5 March 2006 (PST)

I must admit that I haven't given much thought to it yet. What I can tell you for sure is that the nobility still exists in Veneda, but that its role is largely ceremonial these days. The Senat consists of representatives of the most influential noble families, and perhaps a few bishops and the like, but that's about it. The way I see it, the position of the nobility could be best compared with that of the nobility in contemporary England. But how that works precisely, I don't know yet. I must confess that I've played with the idea of the nobility still maintaining private milicies. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 11:51, 5 March 2006 (PST)

What would be quite interesting would be if Veneda had implemented the equivalent of May_Constitution_of_Poland. We wouldn't have to invent anything, as the original text is at wikisource, for example - it can be easily tweaked to Veneda (even translated, if one wishes :>). As for composition of the Senate, the question is would it be more similar to modern Senate of Poland or to PLC Senate. The PLC one was actually quite large, with close to 150 members. One of my current Wikipedia project is a list of positions for senatorial Offices_in_Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth. List of specific senatorial offices is here, note it is not Wiki mainspace but my userspace. Interestingly, it is an offshot of my interest in another alternate history universe :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Piotr Finały ^Talk 17:04, 5 March 2006 (PST)

As a matter of fact, they DID implement such a constitution. Not entirely the same, I'm sure, because in the case of the RTC is was primarily Napoleon who saved the state. But there are surely a lot a parallels. The Senate nowadays consists of 99 members, and is one of the six chambers of the Sejm (altogether 714 members). —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 00:35, 6 March 2006 (PST)

I think I have a solution. Could it be that Veneda and Lithuania did establish a May constitution (more\less like here) and then the new amendments were added (like in *here* USA constitution) firstly by Napolenon then by Sejm and as a result we have a present situation? And I think that 1st Amendment given by Napoleon could have simular meaning for Veneds and Lithuanians to *here* US 1st Amendment.Follow by white rabbit 11:06, 6 March 2006 (PST)

I'm not saying it is impossible, but isn't that a little too American? Anyway, I'm not excluding anything. And I'll happily leave this to Piotr, who obviously knows this stuff better than I do. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 02:54, 7 March 2006 (PST)

I rather like the idea. --Piotr Konieczny aka Piotr Finały ^Talk 17:48, 24 March 2006 (PST)

I was thinking about something simular not identical of course. And now I'm thinking that in such complex and complicate system the constitution shouldn't be the only document regulating state political system.Follow by white rabbit 11:41, 7 March 2006 (PST)

Hows this: Napoleon's constitution mentioned nobility without defining its right and responsability, something vague along the lines of "The garrant of continuity and protector of the republic shall be its Nobility". Their actual status would have been defined based on a suplementary protocol. This way, Napoleon (and the gorvernment) ensure a certain check and balance on the nobility (their rights can be revised or revoked) without having to go through a period of instability by re-opening the constitution. --Marc Pasquin 07:25, 25 March 2006 (PST)

Locked?

Why is the page locked? I wanted to create articles on Piniat and Kordyn?--Piotr Konieczny aka Piotr Finały ^{[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font color="green">Talk</font>}]] 16:35, 8 December 2006 (PST)

Which page? Now it is impossible to create articles if you are not logged-in, but if you are logged-in it should be ok. Abdul-aziz 07:15, 9 December 2006 (PST)

Another way is to also create the text you would want on the page and present it to us at our web group! BoArthur 10:09, 9 December 2006 (PST)

How far goes regional autonomy in the RTC?

Does RTC have a national wide currency or do the currency's design is different in Veneda and Lithuania? Something like an analogue to Pound Sterling and Scottish Pound in *Here's* UK. What about the stamps? Perhaps both crowns have their own separate postal service? Or perhaps something like in *Here's* Bosnia and Hercegovina where there are a national postal service plus other subnational two. What about when RTC goes to international sports events? Are they represented by a whole national team or each crown has its own?--Pedromoderno 06:48, 29 September 2014 (PDT)

Most of what there is to know about RTC currency can be found here: http://steen.free.fr/rtc/currency.html. I am pretty sure Veneda and Lithuania both have their own talar, so the analogy with the Scottish Pound seems pretty adequate. The same goes undoubtedly for stamps as well, although there are several postal services issuing their own stamps.

I've never given much thought to sports matters, to tell you the truth. I wouldn't be surprised if Veneda and Lithuania both had their own national team, although this might be vary between one sport and another.

Remember that when it comes to the RTC, there is one rule of thumb: no matter how complicated you can imagine it, reality is probably worse! IJzeren Jan 11:07, 19 October 2014 (PDT)

Lipka Tatars

What is their history *there*? Might they be able to be written into IB somehow? Are they considered a distinct ethnic group, or just Lithuanians/Veneds/Belarusians who happen to be Muslims? Juan Martin Velez Linares 11:25, 09 December 2015 (CST)

Speaking of which, are they even large enough to be counted outside the group of "Other" in censuses? I know there were about 200,000 of them in 1590 *here* (which I'm assuming is QAA), but that was a long time ago and the Commonwealth/RBN was fár bigger then than it is now! Juan Martin Velez Linares 11:29, 09 December 2015 (CST)