Talk:Luxemburg

Luxembourg

(Moved from Talk:Germany)

What's the story on Luxembourg? --Sikulu 16 December 2005, 15:18 (GMT)

About the same as *here*, except that the grand duke of Luxemburg didn't lose the western part in the casino. Let's assume that Luxemburg had the same borders as *here* after the Congress of Vienna. The Batavian Kingdom was established, consisting of *here*'s Netherlands and Flandria. Wallonia was incorporated into France. Since there was no Belgian revolution in IB, the separation of West and East Luxemburg didn't take place either. No even at the gaming table! Luxemburg and the Batavian Kingdom remained a personal union until 1890, when the former got a queen and Salic law forced the Luxemburgers to elect someone else as grand duke. --IJzeren Jan 07:37, 16 December 2005 (PST)

I'm asking, because Luxembourg defaulted to the rulers of Nassau because of the Salic Law. --Sikulu 3 January 2006, 15:20 (GMT)

There's another thing: on the map, it appears to be a constituent state of the HRE, and yet no one has mentioned it... Seth 23:36, 20 August 2007

Umm, Luxembourg is on the map as a constituency of the HRE. *Here*, it is a Grand Duchy, and I assume it is so *there*. But the real question is this: is it an Elector? And if so, does that not mean it's leader also has a chance of being HREmperor? I think we should address this issue... Seth 03:28, 28 August 2007

You are right, the situation of Luxemburg is messy. The map of the HRE is not completely correct anyway: on it, the Batavian Kingdom also includes Wallonia and Luxemburg is only half of Luxemburg (like *here*). For the correct borders of Luxemburg, see this map:

http://steen.free.fr/ib/maps/bataafs_koninkrijk.png

The article Luxemburg is not of much help either. It writes that Luxemburg is part of the HRE, but at the same time lists is as one of the administrative divisions of France! So I don't know, really. Salic Law made it impossible for the house Nassau to rule it any longer, but what happened afterwards?

Would it make sense if Luxemburg is for one half part of the HRE and for the other half part of France? I bit like Jervaine, but without the middle part? Would the French system allow such a thing at all? Or might it perhaps be preferable to forget the whole HRE thing and have Luxemburg an independent little state, not part of any other bigger state? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 03:17, 28 August 2007 (PDT)

I say that, like *here*, it was split up, but not as badly. Some went to the French, and those areas lost the right to have a "Grand Duke/chess", but the HRE portion might still have a Grand Duke. Or perhaps the area has a condominium: ie there is a Duke, but the Western portion is a condo between France and Luxembourg. Seem alright? Seth 19:08, 28 August 2007

On second thought, I'm a bit hesitant when it comes to making it a condominium. It's a bit too easy a solution for regions we don't know what to do with. I'd say we have enough condominia in Europe, especially in the HRE. Besides, what would be the reasoning behind that? And, for that matter, why would Luxemburg have been split up? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 13:59, 28 August 2007 (PDT)

Hmm, I guess you're right... I guess the better solution is is that it is independent. Guess we'll have to come up with some ideas on it's borders, and other things...Seth 02:02 12 September 2007

If it's a-ok, I'll start up a Luxembourg page soon. Seth 08:06 14 September 2007

Flag

What does everyone think of this for a civil flag? Benkarnell 06:55, 6 January 2008 (PST)

I like it. Seth 19:46, 6 January 2008

Is it based on anything (other than the flag sans Lyon rampant?) BoArthur 09:02, 16 January 2008 (PST)

Most of the other German states seemed to have a fun heraldic state flag and a boring, toned-down civil flag. This civil flag would make Luxemburg fit with the norm... unless fitting the norm is what Luxemburg would do. Yes, I removed the lion and made some stripes red to preserve the color scheme. It actually resembles Arakan, but I figure that that's OK (after all, the flag of Luxembourg *here* looks almost exactly like that of the Netherlands). Benkarnell 12:50, 16 January 2008 (PST)

A motion

I put forth a motion that East Luxembourg is part of the Holy Roman Empire, but that the Western portion be free of France. Anyone else wish to second this motion? Seth 17:01, 16 January 2008

So, a situation where Luxemburg is independent, but half of it is part of the HRE? I think it was settled at Talk:Germany that all of Lux _is_ in fact part of the Empire. Benkarnell 11:21, 16 January 2008 (PST) Actually, looking again it looks like there's no consensus other than "not another condominium please." Whether it's 50% or 100% part of Germany, though, it is basically independent anyways, since the HRE is so powerless. Benkarnell 11:26, 16 January 2008 (PST)

As de jure and de facto caretaker of France, I say that the this would work, but that would have to be reconciled with the history already contained in the article. BoArthur 13:39, 16 January 2008 (PST)

The real Luxembourg has an incredibly intricate history, serving as it has as Europe's revolving door through which the Spanish Hapsburgs, Austrian Hapsburgs, Dutch, French, Belgians, and Prussians have often taken a turn. I think the status of Luxemburg *there* has a lot to do with how France got Wallonia and what the HRE was like in the years 1800-1900. This [1] may be relevant; it explains how Lux remained independent *here* rather than be absorbed into Frnace or Germany. Benkarnell 14:48, 16 January 2008 (PST)

You can also look at this for the final borders, but I like the idea, yes. And no, I'm not redoing my maps. ;) BoArthur 15:19, 16 January 2008 (PST)

For what it's worth, I'm having trouble thinking of a plausible historical reason why half of Lux would get out of the HRE and the other half remain a part of it. (I suggested a possibility below, but honestly, I don't think it makes much sense.) Benkarnell 23:24, 17 January 2008 (PST)

Possible timeline

It keeps getting more complicated-- Bohemia was intricately wound up as well, as its kings for a long while came from the House of Luxemburg; the actual Luxemburg County was then ruled as an appenage by a junior branch of the family. Here's a suggestion for a rough outline.

963: Siegfried I, a minor Ardennes nobleman, acquires a highly defensible fief in the HRE called Lucilinburhuc. His descendents become the House of Luxemburg. (just like *here*)

1309-1312: Henry VII of Luxemburg and his son John the Blind secure the respective posts of Holy Roman Emperor and Bohemian King. (like *here*, except that the nature of the Bohemian Crown was different).

c.1350-1378: Karel of Luxemburg is one of the strongest Bohemian kings and HR Emperors ever. After his reign, Bohemia again becomes relatively decentralized. As a sign of this new prestige, Luxemburg is elevated to a duchy.

1437: After the death of Sigismund, the Habsburgs become the HRE's premier family.

1440s-1477: Luxemburg and the rest of the Batavia region become Habsburg territory.

Now at this point I'm not clear on Batavian and Spanish history. QAA the northern provinces revolted and became independent in the early XVIJth century. I think that the Hapsburgs never came to power in Spain, so Luxemburg etc. remained in Austrian hands.

1806: Napoleon becomes Emperor and does not abolish the HRE, so Luxemburg remains Austrian.

1815: Congress of Vienna gives the Austrian Netherlands to Batavia. Luxemburg remains part of the HRE with the Dutch king as _Grand_ Duke.

1830: Flanders revolts unsuccessfully, and Luxemburg joins in. Lux is not partitioned, however, per Talk:Germany#Luxemburg.

1866: As Prussia and 2nd-Empire France jockey for territory, a treaty is made wherein eastern Luxemburg joins the North German Zollverein, but the western part remains outside it (but still in personal union w/ Batavia and part of the HRE)

1890: Adolphe Nassau-Willenburg becomes Grand Duke to fulfill the Salic Law; Lux is fully separated from Batavia.

GW1: The non-Zollverein Luxemburg withdraws from HRE.

Again-- just a suggestion. Benkarnell 19:12, 16 January 2008 (PST)

It looks good, Ben, but I'm thinking that you'll want sign off by Jan II, Jan I and Padraic, as well, as Jan II's got "imminent domain" on Bohemia, and the others have a vested interest in Germany, too. BoArthur 07:17, 17 January 2008 (PST)

I checked the Bohemian parts against Rulers_of_Bohemia#Bohemian_Kings; it's QSS (or at least QAA) that the Luxemburgs ruled Bohemia. It's the modern parts that I'm unsure about. Everything on my timeline after 1815 should be thought of as food for thought rather than a proposal. Benkarnell 07:59, 17 January 2008 (PST)

Trouble with Luxemburg

It remains a troublesome little country, doesn't it? It's typically one of those "grey areas" that didn't disturb us when much of the world in IB was still sort of undefined, but now that Europe has been worked out pretty much in detail the lack of information becomes hard to deal with. I think we can safely say that NOTHING that has been written about Luxemburg until now is really QSS. The article as it stands now, IIRC, was based on temporary info from Dan's Euroguide project and is therefore QAA rather than QSS. For the rest we know that it was not mentioned as a member state of the HRE, but included on its map anyway. And here we go. Part of the confusion is undoubtedly my mistake, as it was me who included it on the HRE map (but only Luxemburg as we know it *here*), while it was also me who drew a map, on which Luxemburg includes both the Grandduchy and the Belgian province.

Indeed, making it a condominium seems like too cheap a solution for our problem. On the other hand, the idea of an independent state of Luxemburg half of which is part of the HRE somehow doesn't seem to be attractive either. Here are the simplest solutions I can think of:

1. We have a big, independent Luxemburg (including both the province and the grandduchy), which - as a whole - is or is not part of the HRE.
2. We have a small Luxemburg (i.e. *here*'s grandduchy), which in all likeliness is part of the HRE. That would be the situation reflected by the map of the HRE, a slightly corrected version of which I just uploaded and added to Germany. The other half would in that case be an integral part of France.

Personally, I'd be in favour of one of these two rather than of a big Luxemburg half of which is part of the HRE. But sure, it isn't unthinkable. Let me also say that I'd much prefer to keep Luxemburg unexplored, unless someone really wants to work with it. If the latter be the case, I'll happily comply with any scenario offered by this person.

In any case, here is some Batavian input:

Although I'm not sure if it has ever been written down that way, I have always been under the impression that Wallonia became part of France directly after the Vienna Congress. There has definitely NOT been a Flemish revolution (simply because the Flemish wouldn't have had a reason to revolt), which would explain why the Flemish lands are still part of the BK and why Luxemburg wasn't partitioned, at least not in the 1830s.

For Luxemburg, this would mean the following:

• Either the western part was already annexed by France in 1815, just like Wallonia, thus leaving the rest as part of the HRE.
• Or Luxemburg was left intact by Napoleon, in which case:
  • Luxemburg is still big and independent, no matter whether it's still part of the HRE or not;
  • it was partitioned later. If so, why?

That's my take on it, for now. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 12:49, 22 January 2008 (PST)

NB I like the flag!

NB2 I also like Ben's timeline, although the 19th century part might need revision. I think it should be added to the article in due time. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 13:00, 22 January 2008 (PST)

I _had_ actually taken a fancy to Luxemburg-- dividing as much time as I do between the two remotest island nations in the world, I was starting to think that a little piece of action-packed Europe to dart off to every now and again might be fun. On the other hand, I don't want to get my fingers in everything, either, and I think Seth has also taken a fancy to the grand duchy. I'm more than willing to let Seth or anyone else delete my few tentative edits to this page (ahthough the flag seems to have general support; thanks, Jan, by the way).

Regarding political status: After poring over Luxemburg's history both *here* and *there*, I don't see any real reason that Lux would ever withdraw from the HRE. *Here*, they were on the fast track to joining Bismarck's German Empire. He got them into his customs union, and the only reason Lux is not a part of Germany today is that Napoleon III tried to get at it, and all the Great Powers had to intervene to prevent France and Prussia from getting into a war over poor little Luxembourg. *There*, with the Holy Roman Empire still in existence, I don't think Napoleon 3 could have made a move to acquire Luxemburg. It would have remained in the Empire, under Prussian influence until after GW2.

Which is not to say that Lux isn't somehow "independent"! Being a member state of the HRE carries about the same obligations and burdens as being a member of a birdwatching club, if I understand it correctly.

PS: Christian Thalman should also weigh in on this, as well as the lengthy list above. Letzebourgesch is a (small) part of his design for Jervaine.

Benkarnell 13:52, 22 January 2008 (PST)

Possible maps

I made three maps based on Jan's at Germany. For discussion purposes let's say Jan's original is "Choice 1". Choice 1 is a small Luxemburg that is part of the HRE.

• 

  2. Big and independent

• 

  3. Big and part of HRE

• 

  4. Divided, half in HRE, half out

• 

  5. Why not? Small and independent

Benkarnell 14:26, 22 January 2008 (PST)

Well done, these maps! Well, Luxemburg _is_ up for grabs, so if you and/or Seth are really interested in working with it, then you have my support! I was merely warning against all kinds of tentative data about unclaimed countries, to avoid us getting stuck with them later on. Feel free and encouraged to develop Luxemburg into a nice, cosy little IB-hotspot!

From the above maps, I'd say that only #5 seems of little probability. All the others are possible. Even #4 definitely looks nice, and comes closest to what we've been assuming about Luxemburg before. In any case, I'll comply with anything you and Seth come up with.

The key questions, I think, are the following two:

1. What did Luxemburg look like in 1815?
2. Has anything changed in its status ever since?

It's important to realise that the 19th century was an extremely quiet period in IB, and that the final outcome of GW1 was essentially a return to the Status Quo Ante Bellum. But it could be, theoretically, that Luxemburg withdrew from the HRE after GW2, although in that case one would wonder how come Luxemburg is the only country that actually seceded from it. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 01:24, 23 January 2008 (PST)

For what it's worth, I think #3 is most likely barring any new Points of Divergence-- with Batavia and Belgium so different *there*, western Luxembourg would not have been carved away to join the Belgian state. On the other hand, since France seems to have gained the French-speaking parts of Batavia in 1815, perhaps they did the same with Luxemburg. The partition line is largely a boundary between German/Letzebourgesch speakers Franch/Walon/Lorain speakers. If this was done in 1815, then #1 is most likely-- again, unless another POD is introduced. Benkarnell 07:10, 23 January 2008 (PST)

I'm willing to assist with Luxembourg, but I don't want it, per se. Also, I like the choices as a timeline (French annexation of Walon Batavia, the the HRE absorbs Luxembourg. The French speaking majority of Western Luxembourg vote to secede, and then joins France. Perhaps an outcome of one of the Great Wars is independence for Luxembourg?). Seth 18:08, 23 January 2008

There's one other thing to take into consideration: *here* France occupied and annexed Luxemburg in 1795 and was only forced to give it back because of Napoleon's defeat. But *there*, there was no such defeat. And so, I can't really think of a reason why Napoleon would have restored it benevolently - even more so as a component of the HRE. Unless pre-1815 history has been different, we should think of an explanation why Luxemburg exists as a sovereign nation at all!

Perhaps it WAS annexed to France, and then restored under German pressure, for example after the Franco-Prussian War? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 11:25, 23 January 2008 (PST)

I like where this is going... BoArthur 12:05, 23 January 2008 (PST)

That would imply a small Luxemburg, as the Francophone portion would likely remain part of France. But I have two questions: Napoleon also occupied Batavia and Illyria. Why did he let those go? Did he occupy and seize any other parts of the HRE besides Luxembourg? Benkarnell 12:29, 23 January 2008 (PST)

Napo established client kingdoms with friends and family on the thrones, *here*. Would he do the same *there*? That could explain a free and large Luxembourg. BoArthur 14:24, 23 January 2008 (PST)

Hm... Well, it wasn't actually Napoleon who occupied the Austrian Netherlands; he was in Italy at the time. In 1815, however, Napoleaon *there* apparently let Batavia have Flanders (to acknowledge its loyalty?). He may have done the same for Luxembourg, allowing it to re-join his Holy Roman Empire but keeping the Francophone half. ...On the other hand, maybe a nationalist revolt with Prussian help would be even more interesting! Maybe even a brief period of existence outside the empire before being absorbed again. Benkarnell 15:22, 23 January 2008 (PST)

Sounds to me like you have some interesting discoveries ahead... :) BoArthur 15:39, 23 January 2008 (PST)

Indeed! :) Dan, your remark about establishing client kingdoms with friends and family on the thrones gave me one - admittedly wild, but perhaps worth considering - idea! What if Napoleon DID establish a big Luxemburg that would be part of the HRE? In that case he might have become grandduke himself. Not so wild as it seems, perhaps, since he was already elected king of the RTC as well. And then, being Europe's undisputed leader, had himself elected Emperor of the HRE? I don't know if anything along those lines is excluded by QSS, but if not, it might be something to think about! —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 17:10, 23 January 2008 (PST)

(undent)... So many ideas! Too bad they can't all be true at once. Following Jan's line of thinking... wouldn't it be fun if the current Grand Dukes were descended from one of the Bonapartes? Benkarnell 22:17, 23 January 2008 (PST)

We already have one such place: Andorra. And here I noticed one interesting thing: Napoleon I is listed here as "Emperor of France, Holy Roman Emperor, and King of the RTC". I've no idea how that came about to happen, and the page on Napoleon himself doesn't mention him as being Emperor of the HRE, but it all fits pretty nicely, doesn't it?

You know what? I'm starting to like the idea! Not only would it put Luxemburg on the map, but it would also help solving a problem we haven't really been able to solve for years ago, namely that of the Holy Roman Emperor: is he elegible from among the rulers of the member states only, or would a member of any ruling house do?

If the latter be the case, somebody of Napoleon's family could occupy the throne of Luxemburg with Napo himself becoming Holy Roman Emperor. If the former, then it should be Napoleon himself.

For Napoleon himself, such a move would be more than logical. It would mean his dream coming true: the resurrection of the Roman Empire, with himself at its head. En passant it would also allow him to keep an eye on Prussia.

After his death, Germany probably elected somebody else, a German, and soon afterwards nothing was left of Napoleon's heritage. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 01:17, 24 January 2008 (PST)

Well, we do know how the HRE worked up to 1806-- it was the same as *here*, in which theoretically (IIRC) the crown could go to any heads of dynasties in the Empire, but the Hapsburgs had effectively made it hereditary for centuries. It's QSS that Napoleon was the Emperor. I really like the idea that in order to do that properly, he first made himself Duke of Luxembourg (and later Grand Duke). From there, I think we can imagine the reforms he made to the Empire... and it might give us more clues re what the Empire is like today. Benkarnell 07:14, 24 January 2008 (PST)

Districts, cantons and communes

I assume that Luxembourg *there* has a similiar internal structuring to Luxembourg *here*, that is it is divided into districts, then cantons and then communes. However, unlike *here*, I see it being subdivided into 5 districts with an average of 4 cantons per district, then an average of 8-9 communes per canton. However, I do not control Luxembourg, so it's internal structuring may have no subdivisions. Just throwing this out there... Seth 00:28 2 February 2008

To be fair, you've been interested in the little place longer than I have, and if I do "control" it, it's been for a few days at most! That said, I have no real interest in Luxemburg's subdivisions, and if you want to put a map or list together, go right ahead. My 2 Pfennige would just be that Luxembourg remain a unitary state; it's too small IMO to be federalized into _autonomous_ districts. [edit] Y'know, Seth, if you have lots of ideas for Luxemburg, I say let's make it a joint project. I've put my ideas for history into the article, but government and culture are still up in the air. Benkarnell 16:03, 1 February 2008 (PST)

Civil flag

Before this becomes QSS... I don't like that flag and would like to remove it. Make the Red Lion the national, not merely the state, flag. Benkarnell 23:48, 5 March 2008 (PST) [Edit] I made it a civil ensign. It looks quite nautical to me. Benkarnell 11:22, 19 March 2008 (PDT)

Deprop?

This article is up for deproping. I gave it some extra time because it's not my normal area and it is so interconnected with other IB cultures. Some of the questions to consider before we deprop are:

Are we OK with the Francophone half of Luxembourg staying with the Luxemburgish half?

Does it make sense that a more independent-minded, western-oriented Luxemburg adopted its distinct German dialect as its official language, rather than the national standard?

Does it make sense that Luxemburg remained large and entirely part of the Holy Roman Empire? Does that have an effect on any established IB German history?

Benkarnell 09:10, 12 March 2008 (PDT)

What you've given us so far doesn't seem to conflict; I give it a tentative yes.BoArthur 10:53, 12 March 2008 (PDT)