Talk:Karpatia

It would be great to find more details about this short lived country, such as its national symbols (flag, coat of arms), its leadership and history (more on detail). Pedromoderno 10 June 2006

Well, the flag would probably be similiar to SNORist Hungary, but probably with the RTC crown thats found on the flag. Coat of Arms would bear the symbol of the SNOR bird, but the cross would be replaced with the crown. If anyone could help me out, since I lack in these skills, it would be greatly appreciated. Seth 2:12, 10 June 2006

I would say that it wouldn't necessarily be the SNOR eagle. It would more likely be something unique to the region, something that the SNORists would use to try to get the "locals" to rally behind. BoArthur 20:07, 9 June 2006 (PDT)

A much more appropriate animal would be the crow. A large number of crows appear to inhabit the area, nad the SNORist puppet government would most likely have used it instead of the SNOR eagle. Seth 4:14, 10 June 2006

I've uploaded a possible Snorist flag, using the crow as suggested against a field of green. Couldn't remember, is "red" associated with Communism in IB? I thought it was. Zahir 06:35, 10 June 2006 (PDT)

Both veneda and lithuania use a red field so to have a country (especialy one on the RTC soil) use it too wouldn't probably imply communism in the mind of the viewers. --Marc Pasquin 10:03, 10 June 2006 (PDT)

I enjoy the flag! It was completely different than the one I had in mind, but this one is better. You did a great job, Zahir. Seth 4:16, 11 June 2006

Thankee! Would folks prefer a different background for the flag? I kinda liked the idea of a monotone background, which *works* for me with this crow and cross. But I'm not in love with it. Zahir 20:31, 12 June 2006 (PDT)

I say "no." It is great the way it is. Seth 4:32, 13 June 2006

Just a note, the heraldic animal of Karpathia should be bear, as it was in a CoA of pre-war Czechoslovakia *here*, see Jan II. 22:52, 12 June 2006 (PDT)

Is someone willing to change the history of Galicia in reference to Skarpacja/Karpatia? I don't want to infringe, it's just that this doesn't match with it. Seth 3:51, 17 Sept. 2006

Nevermind, i believe I have it worked out where it will fit ncely with the Galicia page. Seth 04:00, 7 August 2007

Some comments

Wow, I completely wasn't aware of this page! I don't have any objections against the basic idea, but there are a few issues.

First of all, the year. Independent Karpatia did not exist in 1956, but in 1949. To be precise, from June 1948 till May 1949. The backstory is that after defeating Hungary snorist Russia divided it in five parts, one of which was Karpatia. On the longer term, Russia would probably have given it to Ukraine, but the outright annexation of a part of Hungary wouldn't have been possible at the time. So they turned it into a snorist state, which the Russians where forced to abandon in 1949. After that, a referendum was held, which resulted in Karpatia becoming part of the RTC (alternatives would have been Slevania, snorist Ukraine, a return to Hungary, or continued independence).

I've no idea how the year 1956 crept in. I noticed it on the page about Galicia, but that is a blatant error that I should have noticed before.

Secondly, "Skarpacja" is the name of the region in Wenedyk. As an independent country, it would be known as "Karpacja" in Wenedyk.

Thirdly, the population of the region is in majority Rusyn, or, if you want, West-Ukrainian. I suppose the first name of its leader would by "Oleksandr", not "Aleksandr" (which is Russian).

At last, the Slevans make up only 6,6 % of the population of Skarpacja. See http://steen.free.fr/rtc/population.html . The UNDO is present in the province, but not omnipotent. Stronger is the local Ruthenian party ORWiL. The ORWiL cooperate with the UNDO on a more or less equal basis, although they obviously don't like the Ukrainian habit of calling the Ruthenes "Ukrainians". As for the Slevans, I suppose some of them might prefer to be part of Slevania indeed, although I don't think they have much reason to agitate for either border corrections or an independent Karpatia.

Ah, I love the flag! Great work!

—IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 12:34, 7 August 2007 (PDT)

Glad you like it! But yes, it is heavily distorted in info. I also did now know you had a linguistic map/ethnic composition page for the RTC. Had I known this, I would have used it in full detail. Also, per the referendum, I see them only having three real choices: independence, union into the RTC, or joining with Slevania. They most likely did not like living under Hungarian rule, and union with the Ukraine is very difficult due to the rest of Galicia being in the way. What I do see is that after they achieve "independence," and were allowed their referendum, I see them truly contemplating either full independence or becoming a more autonomous province within Galicia, to preserve their culture. Perhaps the Ruthenians wish to have independence today (thus ORWiL), since they consider themselves unique from the Ukrainians. If Galicia were to ever secede from the RTC, I see Skarpacja becoming an independent state as well. Seth 07:25, 8 August 2007

I really don't think the independence movement among the Ruthenians is very strong. First of all, it's not a politically very developed region. Secondly, the Ruthenians themselves are divided where it comes to their ethnicity. Many of them consider themselves Ukrainians, just like the rest of Galicia. The majority of those who consider the Ruthenians a separate nation feel rather attached to the RTC and might even rely stronger on the Veneds instead. Keep in mind that the RTC is not a "prison of peoples" of any kind: it's a truly multinational state, where - in spite of a few unpleasantries every now and then - nationalities can freely enjoy their own culture, language, and religion. It's doubtful whether they would really be better off in Slevania or in an independent state. The Ukrainians are a big and fairly strong nation, who are aware their power and hope for a (re)unification with post-snorist Ukraine. Some Ruthenians support them in this, others don't trust them and would definitely prefer to remain in the RTC instead of becoming part of a strongly ukrainised state. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 01:10, 8 August 2007 (PDT)

From http://steen.free.fr/rtc/parties.html : "ORWiL – Orhanizacija Rusyniw u Wenezi j na Łytvi (Організація Русинів у Венезі й на Литві) (Organisation of Ruthenes in Veneda and Lithuania). Founded in 1951. Many Ruthenes consider themselves Ukrainians, and become activists in Ukrainian organisations. A large minority, however, consider themselves a separate nation, and the ORWiL was created to protect it."

I've reworked the page a little. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 02:28, 8 August 2007 (PDT)

Wow! You are really good at this sort of thing! You fleshed it out so much more than I could possibly dream. Well, then again, you are sort of caretaker of the RTC and Eastern Europe, so it's no surprise that you already had a history planned out and all. Just glad to help :) . Seth 08:46, 8 August 2007

why would bohemia recognise karpatia?

ahem, why would bohemia, ally of HRE and enemy of russia, recognise SNORist creation like karpatia? free bohemia appeared no sooner then in the same day as karpatia died due to visby conference. even free bohemia would have no interest to support SNOR and its minions. Jan II. 13:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the history section of Bohemia, there was a ten years period of quisling like pro-russian government. I would assume it was during this period that bohemia recognised it.--Marc Pasquin 18:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

eh? pro-russian??? no, pro-german! since april 1939 till may 1949. and bohemian quislings were part of allianz. but then, after russia splitted off, bohemia was on a side of germany against russia. and that is exactly my argument. the page on karpathia says: "It lasted eleven months, from June 1948 till May 1949. During its short existence, only three states recognised it: snorist Russia, Ukraine and Bohemia." but during this period bohemia was enemy of SNOR and russia, why would the pro-german regime in bohemia recognise russian satellite? do not let be mistaken, there was strong pro-russian czech movement and czech soldiers fought on russian side and planned to create SNORistic regime in bohemia, but it never happend. it looks after those years still confusing in IB, czech are not bohemians :) Jan II. 20:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the bohemian article should be made clearer on that respect. I would assume whoever added bohemia took the article the same way I did.--Marc Pasquin 12:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

come on, marc, there is no single hint in the article on bohemia, that it could be pro-russian during the war. i may clarify it by adding "pro-german quisling regime", that is good point. but read any article on GW2 or on grossartige allianz, and in both it is said that bohemia was member of it and part of HRE, i.e. it followed the fate of germany and HRE. anyway, thanx for discussion. now both articles need to be changed, bohemia and karpatia too. Jan II. 07:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hungary

The text says: "After Hungary was defeated in the Second Great War and occupied by Russian troops, Russia divided it into five parts: Oltenia, Muntenia, Slevania, Karpatia and Hungary proper. "

How does this fit with QSS? Oltenia became independent of Hungary after/during GW1, Muntenia wasn't ever part of it, and Slevania was... also after GW1? Can't recall that offhand, but the point still stands, by GW2 these were all separate. Except perhaps Karpatia... which perhaps could have been cut off from Slevania? Dalmatinac 04:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Contradictions???

On the Hungary page, it says Mukaczewo and Berehowe are in Hungary. But on this page, it says they are in the Erdeka. Which one is correct???? Juanmartinvelezlinares 06:09, 9 February 2017 (PST)

good point! i saw beregszász/berehowe on the hungarian page, which is clearly an error and leftover from very early stages of shaping of IB hungary by dalmatinac, i suppose (all the bereg castle-county should not be part of hungary), but i saw no munkács/mukaczewe on the page. Jan II. 23:08, 1 March 2017 (PST)

Mukaczewo is definitely part of the RTC. From History of the RTC:

[...] after Hungary's defeat in June 1948 it was divided in five pieces: Muntenia and Oltenia were restored; the Slevanians, a people closely related to the Veneds who had been fighting Hungarian rule for a long period, received their own quasi-independent state; the same happened to the Karpatia, a territory inhabited mostly by Carpatho-Ukrainians, or Rusyns; and Hungary proper continued to exist as a rump state. All five were ruled by snorist governments.

[...]

In the small state of Karpatia a referendum was scheduled in April 1949, in which the inhabitants could decide for themselves whether they wanted to be part of Ukraine, Slevania, Hungary or the Republic, or remain an independent state. [...] The Republic of Karpatia was added after the referendum, in which 54 % of the population voted in favour of becoming a part of the RTC.

Unless I'm mistaken, all this was written before Hungary was elaborated, so I guess that settles the issue. Cheers, IJzeren Jan 14:28, 4 March 2017 (PST)