Something that just occured to me, did Christophe or anyone else ever came up with when the extra mainland french territory were added (navare and walonia). Was it a gradual thing like some of the other provinces or were they revolutionary/napoleonic conquests ?--Marc Pasquin 07:56, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
- I know Navarra joined up at some point because of Royal inter marryings. I would guess that Waloonia was added nearer the time of Napoleon....if the Batavian Kingdom was created by him. BoArthur
Kings of France?
In France's history *here* there were a whole lot of Kings. Do we want to keep the same list, or modify it a bit? Here are those from roughly 1350 CE (the House of Valois) to Napoleon as it happened elsewhere than IB:
- House of Valois
- Philip VI 1328-1350 (nee 1293)
- John the Good 1350-1364 (nee 1312)
- Charles V, the Wise 1364-1380 (nee 1337)
- Charles VI 1380-1422 (nee 1368)
- Charles VII, the Victorious 1422-1461 (nee 1403)
- Louis XI 1461-1483 (nee 1423)
- Charles VIII 1483-1498 (nee 1470)
- Louis XII 1498-1515 (nee 1462) descendant of Charles V's younger son
- Francois I 1515-1547 (nee 1494) son of Count of Angouleme
- Henri II 1547-1559 (nee 1519)
- Francois II 1559-1560 (nee 1544)
- Charles IV 1560-1574 (nee 1550)
- Henri III 1574-1589 (nee 1551)
- House of Bourbon
- Henri IV, of Navarre 1589-1610 (nee 1553) son of Antoine, King of Navarre, husband of Margot, sister of Henri III, Charles IV and Francois II
- Louis XIII 1610-1643 (nee 1601)
- Louis XIV 1643-1715 (nee 1638)
- Louis XV 1715-1774 (nee 1710)
- Louis XVI 1774-1792 (nee 1754)
If we do decide to change things, I'd vote for simply changing one whole dynasty--either Valois or Bourbon--in total and leaving the other relatively untouched. For that matter, I'd vote to change the House of Valois--keeing the starting dates and number of "Henris" and "Louis" intact--because that fiddling too much with the Bourbons might really send the 19th century out of wack. JMHO Zahir 10:41, 9 October 2005 (PDT)
- Christophe (the caretaker) mentioned before that the history was (roughly) the same until the mid-20th century when the country was split. the only change are those that came from outside of France. I guess that mean no alternate dinasty. --Marc Pasquin 18:17, 9 October 2005 (PDT)
- Another thing, the existence of the Louisiannan and later Tejan monarchy are dependent on the Bourbons (see Louisianne History for clarification.) We'll have to leave them just as they were here until Napo took over things.
You've made quite the list. Some of them I get, some of them I don't. Luxembourg? (for ex). Would you mind e-mailing me a list of the borders you're thinking of, and I'll see about breaking them into a map for our wiki? BoArthur
- Its the luxembourg that is *here* in belgium, not the other one. I was assuming that the part of wallonia *here* all became french departments (with the felmish being part of batavia)--Marc Pasquin 16:22, 30 October 2005 (PST)
Is your list of the departments incomplete, then? Or are you done and I'm just misisng some info? BoArthur
- The main thing I am missing is where to draw the line between Francie and Gaulh. What here is part of belgium is obviously part of Francy and the same goes for part of Spains in regard to Gaulh but the rest (assuming the metropolitain departments are the same), I would need to know where Christophe had envisoned the border.--Marc Pasquin 16:31, 30 October 2005 (PST)
I've sent you a map that I've had for a while and given you my perceived divisions of France. I think that we could safely list the departments, as you see them and leave it mostly ratified until Christophe approves or demands changes. BoArthur
Another question. Is there a reason that *there* Corsica is Outremer instead of being metropolitain France like *here*? BoArthur
- I had assumed that anything which wouldn't fit into either francy or Gaulh would be considered outremer. In any case, it would make sense from a geographical point of view.--Marc Pasquin 15:25, 31 October 2005 (PST)
The problem with including Corsica would be that we should, techincally include Algeria, because it's not that far away from France and/or Corsica? What was it considered here, when it was a department? Was it DOM-TOM? BoArthur
- DOM-TOM are a post WW2 innovation meant to bring colonies fully into France. They are similar to departments but have some elected representative like french regions. In that sense, the greater autonomy was meant to prevent separatism.
- Algeria was considered no different from metropolitan france. The fac that it would be an oversea deparment *there* (with the greater autonomy I suggested) might explain why it is still part of france.--Marc Pasquin 16:03, 31 October 2005 (PST)
I see. But since there are no regional divisions in France *there*, I assume that the DOM-TOM just guarantees them the rights like Metropolitain Francy and Gaulh, right? BoArthur
- The idea as I see it is this: France gets divided in 2 to accomodate the aspiration of the 2 main ethnic groups. This allows them their own elected parliements (one for each communities) and control over some affairs (education, culture, etc...).
- Because the oversea departments agitated for their own community each but out of fear that too many might distabilised the country (due to the small population in each), it was decided to afford them different powers.
- Grosso modo the way it work *every* french citizens vote for the federal parliements, all departments (francians, gaulhosc or oversea) are organised along the same way but for the oversea ones, instead of voting for a community parliement, they vote for their prefets and sous-prefets (which are appointed by their respective parliement in the 2 communities).
- So, the same basic right is given to all citizens and groups but the way it is used is where the difference comes in.--Marc Pasquin 16:58, 31 October 2005 (PST)
- addendum. by my proposal, there would be no TOM or territorial collectivity, only oversea departments.
Presidential Term Comment
I would just like to say that it was complete serendipity that the Louisiannan First Presidents and Prefects are elected for seven year terms. How interesting that originally they were elected for seven year terms *here*! BoArthur
prime-minister and president
To the anonymous contributor, Any particular reasons for those names ?--Marc Pasquin 15:40, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Marc, peut-tu regarder le français (la traduction)? C'est affreux. BoArthur 08:46, 26 November 2005 (PST)
- looks like a babelfish translation. before I correct, I'd like to known if its going to stay (i.e. will the anon please reveal him/herself)--Marc Pasquin 09:20, 26 November 2005 (PST)
- Also, there is no way that Laic france would have an oath mentioning "God"--Marc Pasquin 09:27, 26 November 2005 (PST)
- It doesn't even sound like something the French would say, although I've never heard them take the oath of office, nor do I know that they even do. I'm of half a mind to revert the proposals by our anonymous user until they reveal themselves and have a cohesive proposal for things. BoArthur 17:20, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Does the Legion Etrangere exist *there*? Dalmatinac
- Well, I've always thought it did, as that's how Louisianne was involved in the Great Wars...the Louisiannans signed up to help fight for the French. BoArthur
- *here* it was created by the king (during the restauration) to fight in france's colonial war in algeria. I would assume that there the exact same would have happened (the date would fit anyway).--Marc Pasquin 07:12, 13 January 2006 (PST)
Les noms des départements de la France
I think there are a few problems with the names of the departments, mainly those in the Brezonecq/Arvorec spheres:
- Manche Personally, I'd prefer it if this were called "Cotentin", because that's what it is- the Cotentin peninsula. This is just personal preference, however.
- Morbihan This should definitely be changed, as "Morbihan" is Breton- a language which doesn't exist *there*.
- Côtes d'Armor Historically, this has been Bro Aemylad in Arvorec- I don't know what the French would be.
Also, what about the departements of Gaulhe? Shouldn't they be in Narbonosc rather than Francien? Deiniol 11:59, 10 December 2005 (PST)
The tendency was to name the departements after regional geographic features. If you can figure those out, I'd be very happy to accept them. We'll have to see what Marc says after January. Also, I'm not that well versed on Arvorec and Breton. Can you explain why it doesn't exist there? BoArthur 13:53, 10 December 2005 (PST)
- I would think that the diocese names would pertain more to the Church than to the revolutionary government. Elemtilas 13:25, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- I've made some change, please let me know what you think of the new departements. They're based off the Kingdom map you linked to above.
- Vannetais (Bro Erech)
- Well, Vannetais is an adjective- it's used to name the dialect of Vannes. Also, Bro Erech is Breton (so we have the same problem as with Morbihan). And I'd expect Domnonie rather than Domnonia. I'm still holding out for "Cotentin" for "Manche". :) Deiniol 18:55, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- What would you suggest different for Vannetais or Bro Erech or Morbihan? Why would Manche be Cotentin? And why no change to Ille et Villaine which is just east of Dumnonie? BoArthur 18:58, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- I goofed in the last one- the historical form of "Domnonie" is Domnonée *here*. "Manche" would be "Cotentin" because it's the Cotentin Peninsula (and sleeve is a silly name for a subdivision).
- Here's my suggestion: referring to the map here and going clockwise from the top left, I'd suggest Pays d'Aulne (as it's not just Leon, it's also part of Treger, and the Aulne is a fairly major river there), Domnonée (or maybe Côtes d'Émilade, patterning after Côtes d'Armor *here*), Rennes, Nantes (or Loire Nantais?), Güenète (or whatever the Brehonecq form would be), and Cornouaille. Deiniol 19:28, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- Domnonée works, Manche may be silly, but that is the name of the body of water it borders on...You may convince me yet of Cotentin. As for Léon, I matched it to the border shown on the map, so it shouldn't be Treger anywhere there, but we could just call it Aulne. I like Domnonée over Côtes D'Emilade. The Revolution *here* and *there* favored geographical references and not specific cities. Instead of Loire Nantais, how about Bouches-de-la-Loire?. The other two work for me. We need to get Padraic's Brehonecq input on this. BoArthur 19:50, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- What do you need? Mind you, if you're gonna give me a bunch of French names, I'll need what they mean too! ;) Elemtilas 11:16, 12 January 2006 (PST)
- I think that we're meaning that we'd like your input on the names in general, but specifically: "'Güenète (or whatever the Brehonecq form would be)" and "We need to get Padraic's Brehonecq input on this." BoArthur
- I figured you'ld want some Brehonecq words! Didn't know which of those you'ld like, so, hope the following helps:
- Domnonèe /[email protected]/
- León /leon/
- Cornôu /kornuw/
- Brôu Vannès /bruw vanEs/
- Brôu Namnès /bruw namnEs/
- I figured you'ld want some Brehonecq words! Didn't know which of those you'ld like, so, hope the following helps:
- Those last three names in parens are the Old Brethoneck forms, gotten from such natives as were living in the region. They're taken from an old map of the Cornish Empire.
- The diocese: León, Trehor, Sang Brieoc, Sang Malôu, Dol leor Brehonecq, Rehón, Cornôu, Ouenete, Namnete.
- Looks a bit French, so I noted the pronunciation -- that final -e is still important and corresponds to -a /@/ in Kerno. Elemtilas 20:17, 12 January 2006 (PST)
Somehow or other, the Duchy of Cornwall should be worked into the scheme. There obviously isn't an actual Duke (the office, as I recall from Christophe) is held by the President, who sends some kind of stooge to quell any disturbances and shuffle papers in the name of the République. I don't know which of the above departments correspond to *here*, but the Duchy should encompass *here*'s Finistère, Côte d'Armor, Ille-et-Vilaine, Morbihan & Loire Atlantique. Mind you, I don't mind if Cornouaille is divided into departments -- all the more fuel for the fires! If some bureaucrat in Paris came up with the departmental names, so much the better! ;) Elemtilas 13:25, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- Was that somewhere in Group archives? (I just want to read it all to make sure we honor Christophe's work more completely). BoArthur 14:18, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- Yes. Christophe and I had a grand time going on about the shennanigans of Jean-Marc Grandsire (appointed attache to Cornouaille) and his successor, M. Andre Bullant. Look for late November 2002 threads, espy. "IB: NEWS and updates" (which as I recall had to do with the election of the present Dumnonian high king and his surprise coronation at Dol in Cornouaille). Also look for "Re: Any place left?" in November and December. Elemtilas 17:22, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- It seems that he was planning on something regarding the autonomy of the Breton region during 2004, though what that was going to be, I don't know. Elemtilas 17:22, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- Do we have a way to contact him and bring about his machinations? >:) BoArthur 17:23, 10 January 2006 (PST)
- I've pushed off the date, a touch, as you can see, but I'm also trying to raise him on hailing frequencies, so we may yet get some participation out of him. :)
- I emailed him sometime last month about his returning at least to provide some Narbonosc for this page. He replied, and I'm sure he won't mind me forwarding on the most significant bit:
- > I agree. I wish I could become more active again. I'm beginning a
- > completely new job next week (and finally got a permanent contract), so
- > maybe in a few months I'll be able to participate again.
- So hopefully we'll be able to re-welcome him with fanfares, parades etc. in the not-too-distant future! Deiniol 10:54, 12 January 2006 (PST)
- Let us make sure that the Helvetian Caterers and Chef are NOT notified. ;) BoArthur
What about Corsican? Duane 18:43, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- I don't know if it's a separate language, *there*. Good question, though. Anyone know for sure, either way? BoArthur
- If it isn't, what would be the language there? Gaulhosc or Italian? Duane 19:03, 11 January 2006 (PST)
- It must be. Christophe said "*There* Corsican nationalism is nearly nonexistent thanks to the large autonomy the island was given within Gaulhe (mostly linguistic autonomy)." Elemtilas 21:42, 11 January 2006 (PST)
were they re-abolished when the republic was re-instated ? If not, what would be their status now politicaly speaking ? --Marc Pasquin 07:12, 13 January 2006 (PST)
- Well, here's the thing...I had thought there were just départements and communautés, but then I was reading through everything and Christophe had referred to provinces all over the place....so I'm thinking that with what I've done, and what he wrote, they should be something like the Regions here, but with more political clout, while the départements serve as mere political sub-divisions. What do you think? I think that Christophe's final word on the subject will determine what really goes down as QSS (as far as Provinces are concerned). BoArthur
- As the provinces don't realy sound like a republican thing, how about this:
- After the communities were set up, the central government decided to somewhat reinstate the provinces to try and answer the aspirations of some of the regional cultures (a bit like *here* with the recognition of patois as regional languages). Of course, this would not be either administrative or sub-national entities but strictly touristic regions (no elected officials or legal power but simply promotion of local culture and products).
- Of course as you said, up to Christophe. --Marc Pasquin 08:03, 13 January 2006 (PST)
I found this map and I was thinking that with the division shown in this map, maybe Gaulhe would be Protestant? What do you think, Marc, any others that care to comment?
- I don't realy know enough about the subject to give an enlighten opinion. Simply based on the map, I would say that the difference between north and south isn't catholic vs protestant but rather monolithic vs diversity. Main reason I say this is that Avignon (for historical reason) is a strong center of catholicism. (Marc)
- I don't think Christophe had a religious divide in mind when he created Gaulhe vs. Francie. I really think the divisions are cultural (as Mystery Man says, diversity vs. monolithic) and linguistic (Langue d'oc vs. Langue d'oil). I think he had in mind a France not too dissimilar from *here* in this regard: basically Catholic, but probably somewhat distanced from it the way much of Europe seems to be dechristianising. I don't think Islam is spreading *there* the way it is *here* in France, but that's another matter! Elemtilas 15:58, 27 February 2006 (PST)
- Could there be a larger proportion of Heugonots, as existed *here*, but at modern times, *there*? Or would you both nix that? BoArthur
- One thing that would help even less, it was said before that the acadians *there* were huguenots fleeing from prosecution. Even if they were just a few hundreds, down the generations this would mean thousands *less* huguenots in france. --Marc Pasquin 15:45, 28 February 2006 (PST)
The question is, where is the POD of France? Is it more modern, or were there other changes because of Narbonosc? BoArthur
- Officialy, the POD that christophe originaly decribed would be in the mid 20th century (separation of france into communities). Before that, you are supposed to have only minor POD that allow for the existence of NF, LA, HT and Napoleon's enduring empire.
- Realisticaly, to have narbonosc being a language spoken by the majority of southern france, you would require a POD before the revolution (which brought strong french/francian hegemonistic policies) and maybe even before the renaissance (the begining of its decline *here*). --Marc Pasquin 16:15, 28 February 2006 (PST)
- I wonder, then, would there be *some* accounting for a larger amount of Huguenots in Gaul? Like maybe with the changes in Britain there may've been a skosh more temperance towards them? I don't think it would necessarily affect Napo, etc. What's your take? Also, I've already accounted for an outward flux of Huguenots to LA and somewhat NF, although I think I wrote that they ended up all going to LA. Whaddya think? BoArthur
The other 2 I understand but why Franche-Comte ? --Marc Pasquin 18:02, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
- I'll add this to the article, but because Franche-Comté had an officially recognized language, and yet it is lumped in with Francy and their semi-oppresive (I believe from QAA) language views. They can see the linguistic freedom that exists in Gaulhe, and when their requests to be included in Gaulhe were denied, (and at the secret suggestion of the Helvetians) they've decided to become militant. What do you think? This was my idea for the difference. According to wikipedia there was at least one Papal Bull written exclusively in Franc-Comtois, and I think it's just a subnationalism that's gone to the extreme, like Brittany, like Navarra, like Corsica, etc. BoArthur 18:19, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
- I should like to add that I never expect or plan on Franche-Comté becoming free, and I should expect that Paris will wise-up and stop being quite so oppressive in the near-future (5-10 yrs). BoArthur
- Can I keep the FCL as the "unacknowledged" military arm of such a group? And what name sounds "right" to your francophone ear for such a regional autonomy movement? Suggestions? BoArthur 20:01, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
- Considering their origin, it should probably be something in franc-comtois. Here's a dictionary:
- A characteristic term found there is "Biou" which refers to a braided bunch of grapes. Taken as a symbol of the francomtois community (vineyard is a big industry) so something like "Lou parti di Biou".
- Incidently, there is an essay here about "creation of the franc-comtois identity":
- --Marc Pasquin 20:28, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
- Something else that just occured to me, they could be the proponent of recreating "Greater Burgundy" with some other lands in helvetia and jervaine (the page I quoted above use a lot a flag with the cross of burgundy on it). --Marc Pasquin 20:37, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
- Only moments ago as I reflected on this I thought why not a "Greater Burgundy" or somesuch. Funny how our collective minds work, hein? I shall reflect and adjust. BoArthur 20:57, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
I just read an article on french protestants and thought some of the details given might serve as source material for IB's Huguenots (I assume here that the term would be used *there* in the generic sense of "protestants" within the francian speaking world).
A few numbers given regarding number of member as of 1998
1- l'église réformée de France = 400,000 (500 parishes) 2- l'église de la confession d'Augsbourg, d'Alsace et de Lorraine = 250,000 (200 parishes) 3- l'église évangélique luthérienne de France = 40,000 ( 50 parishes) 4- l'église réformée d'Alsace et de Lorraine = 40,000 ( 60 parishes) 5- l'église baptiste = 18,000 ( ? parishes) 6- l'union nationale des églises réformées évangéliques indépendante de France = ? (20+ parishes) 7- armée du salut = 1,200 ( ? parishes) 8- les églises pantecotistes (indépendants) = 2,000 (20+ parishes)
number 2 & 3 are churches that share some similitude with the Anglicans in that they have adopted a mainly protestant theological approach while maintaining some catholic elements. They have a hierarchy over which preside a synod of bishops, they decorate their churches with crucifixes and other symbols (though of course, no statues) and their pastors wear eclesiastical vestment (black robe, white collar with a white 2-pronged "scarf" and an etole for some rituals).
They use Calvin's translation of the Bible (which incidently is considered to have helped "stabilised" the french language).
Their only 2 sacraments are the baptism and the "cène". The "cène" is in many way similar to the catholic eucharisty however the bread and the wine are both shared and they are believed to have undergone consubstanciation (being both bread & wine and flesh & blood of Jesus at the same time) as opposed to transubstanciation (the bread & wine becoming litteraly flesh & blood of Jesus). Baptism can occur during teen age years as long as the person is believed to be "well instructed". --Marc Pasquin 17:49, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
- Very interesting...good material to work from! :) BoArthur 07:10, 16 May 2006 (PDT)
- Here's a question, would french protestantism (instead of anglo-saxon one) as an environment would have had an impact of LDS pratices ? I'm talking here mostly in term of terminology, symbolism and the like (not theology).--Marc Pasquin 05:16, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
- I know that the LDS Church *here* opts for "la sainte-cène" instead of "sacrément" or "eucharistie", and I know that they use the Louis Segond Bible (eg, protestant.) I'll have to think about other terminologies, etc. That's a very good question, and I'm glad you came up with it. :) BoArthur 06:21, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
How did Navarre come to be French *there*? --Sikulu 06:37, 16 May 2006 (PDT)
- Navarre was historically attached to France, and AFAIK, the event that led to navarre separating from France *here* never happened *there*. See here and here. I would surmise that it was simply never taken back by Spain. BoArthur 07:15, 16 May 2006 (PDT)
- Maybe looking through the list's thread you could find something written by Christophe about it. --Marc Pasquin 05:16, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
- This thread looks to be where it was decided: 
Okay, first of all--I doubt Quentin should be editting France, which has a caretaker, even if we haven't heard from him in awhile. The moratorium on editting is still in effect, I believe, and I know we've been discussing the problems of having folks edit other members' articles.
Second, who nominated this page for deletion? And why? Zahir 09:57, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
- First, Quentin just put the provinces in alphabetical order so, no biggy.
- Second, no one did. It seem to be something about the "Proposal" tag that make it being displayed that way. --Marc Pasquin 10:03, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
- Okay. Goes to show maybe I shouldn't post until I've actually had some caffeine in the morning. Odd about the Proposal tag, though. Zahir 11:45, 1 July 2006 (PDT)
- In any case, Quentin has no business alphabetising French provinces. Do I have to create a shortcut on my keyboard saying This is not Wikipedia especially for you? So, for the last time: don't stick your nose in articles that aren't yours. Frankly, I think it's pretty blunt your part to do this kind of things so shortly after the discussion in Lla Dafern - and at a time when there's an editing moratorium.
- And also: keep away from templates you don't understand, please! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:37, 2 July 2006 (PDT)
Regions of France
Is this correct?
- Nord-Pas de Calais - Is just that
- Waloonie - As here (?)
- Picardie - As jere
- Champagne - Champagne-Ardenne + Yonne
- Lorraine - Moselle is condominial
- France-Comté - as here ?
- Burgudny - - Nièvre, Yonne
- Berry-Nivernais - Cher, Indre, Nièvre
- Orléanais - Centre region - Cher, Indre
- Île-de-France - As here?
- Normandie - Both of them
- Bretagne - + Loire atlantique
- Maine-Anjou - Pays de la loire - Loire atlantique
- Poitou-Garonne - Poitou-Charentes (?)
- Marche-Limousin - Limousin
- Auvergne - - Allier
- Lyonnais - Rhone and Loire
- Dauphiné-Savoie - Isère, Drôme, and Hautes-Alpes
- Provence - Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur
- Languedoc - Midi-Pyrénées + Aude, Pyrénées-Orientales, - Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Lot,
- Rousillion-Foix - Languedoc-Rousillion - Aude, Pyrénées-Orientales
● 22. Aquitaine - 23. Navarre ●
Is it part of France? Sectori 15:48, 25 March 2007 (PDT)
- yes. BoArthur 16:04, 25 March 2007 (PDT)