Talk:Tawantinsuyu

GENERAL NOTICE: Charlie has offered to look after affairs in South America (and presumably also Central America / Iberia as well), in Carlos's long absence. I'm willing to allow him the opportunity unless a general hu et cri to the contrary is forthcoming. Of course, previous work will be respected (QSS); but I'm looking for any particular comments in support or otherwise regarding this offer. Elemtilas 21:00, 7 December 2012 (PST)

As South America has been so little developed for so long I support Charlie's intentions. There must a lot to say about South America, any contributions must be welcome.--Pedromoderno 18:12, 10 December 2012 (PST)

Changes?

Just wondering why the departure from the form of government? I know that Carlos hasn't spelled out too much for Tawantisuyu, but shifting from an elective to hereditary monarchy (among others) is a strong change. Is this maybe a more "recent" change? BoArthur 13:48, 6 August 2015 (PDT)

Whoah, whoah, whoah. What's with the radical change from QSS? What happened to Peru and Charcas? If I recall correctly, wasn't Ecuador part of Nôva Granada? This seems all too much to just let go without any discussion as to whether or not it's in alignment with Carlos' and lla Societad's wishes. Should we discuss this further? Juan Martin Velez Linares 22:00, 7 August 2015 (PDT)

Has anyone decided what to do with all the changes? Do they stay or go? Juan Martin Velez Linares 20:20, 08 September 2015 (CDT)

I would advise bringing this up with Padraic/Elemtilas on Conculture - get his opinion. I haven't strayed south of the Equator *there* very often. BoArthur 09:54, 9 September 2015 (PDT)

Compromise

OK, IMO this is a pretty big transgression of QSS as it is, although I'm not sure if Charlie was given Lla Societad's blessings in writing this. So I thought that maybe we could reconcile his wishes with what had previously been written (admittedly combined with some wishes of my own):

• I'm not opposed to Tawantinsuyu and Charcas being united as, well, Tawantinsuyu, as long as we have the point of divergence be the continued existence (and perhaps increased size, unless you want a sort of "reverse Reconquista" with the Incas fighting off the jodidos Castellanos) of the Neo-Inca state. Indeed, I think this is probably the most logical result of a stronger, more disease-resistant (thank Pachamama for Henuans!) Incan Empire.
• Again, as long as we continue the Neo-Inca state, Tawantinsuyu can also be a hereditary constitutional monarchy (or, if you want, an elective one with some sort of governmental change in the mid-1800s).
• The coastline of this "Tawantin-charcas" should at the very least contain the northern little bit of Chile (the part bordering Bolivia *here*) plus Tawantinsuyu's coastline. If the rest of you think it's the best course of action, we can give Tawantinsuyu the rest of Charcas' coastline (I'm not opposed to it at all, actually... just want to make sure the rest of you approve it).
• If you want, Peru can also be part of Tawantinsuyu, what with all the historical Inca ties and such.
• Ecuador being part of Tawantinsuyu? Okay, there I draw the line. IMO that should remain part of Nova Granada. Probably the northern tip of Peru as well, if only to make Nova Granada look more "aesthetically pleasing".

What do you think? Admittedly, this is in itself probably something of a violation of QSS, but honestly I'm not too sure about what's going on in South America. So... Opinions? Questions? Comments? Telling me that my plan is total rubbish? Ask away. Juan Martin Velez Linares 10:37, 13 Nov 2015 (CDT)

Given that the people more likely to comment on this will be on conculture, as well, make sure you cross-post it. BoArthur 08:56, 13 November 2015 (PST)

Charlie's Views

• I don't know where all this is coming from. It's been a while since I've been on IB because of retiring from active ministry. I'd like to continue developing Tawantinsuyu.
• I took on the job of caretaker because there was virtually nothing written about Tawantinsuyu. Thus, I felt there'd be no QSS to be violated. Both Perú and Charcas are virtually void of info.
• I'm basing my understanding of the location of Tawantinsuyu on a map entitled Helenika.jpg. The map entitled Map South America 2005 seems to be the same, as does the map entitled South America. I do see that I need to mention that Paraná borders Tawantinsuyu on the east.
• I've stated the POD in the timeline on the Tawantinsuyu page.
• It can be seen from the list of borders that I had no intention of joining Charcas, or any of the other nations, to Tawantinsuyu, but I would do it if everyone approves. It is my intention to retain a neo-Incan Empire.
• Yes, I am comfortable with an hereditary monarchy.
• And I'll take on Perú if there is a concensus.
• Equador? No, thanks.
• It's been 17 months since the last discussion item. How long do I wait?

Have there been any comments on conculture? I've forgotten how to access the site! Caeruleancentaur 14:37, 28 April 2017 (PDT)

Hey Charlie,

First: long time no see! It's good to see you back on the project.

Second of all, I wrote my little list of grievances about a year and a half ago, when I was still pretty dang new to the project; I've had time to better read your article and realise that I took objection to too many things too soon. I apologise for having been kinda standoffish when I first posted about the changes; I got a little too worked up over the apparent change of borders, didn't take the time to read through, and sort of let my own favoritisms go to my head when I wrote that comment. I'm really sorry for having stepped on your toes like that, and I promise I'll act more civil in the future.

Anyway, I've come around to the idea of a hereditary monarchy starting with Túpac Amaru Shakur; if the other members (all three of us) consent to it I have no problem with it either! In retrospect, my objection towards that was kinda dumb.

My main objection to your changes, really, was what I perceived as a massive expansion of the borders; not once did it occur to me that you had kept Tawantinsuyu's earlier borders! I just read the provinces section and sort of thought you were going on an Incan Irredentist mission. The article isn't really clear about the difference between the historical and current expanse of Tawantinsuyu (or maybe the province information hasn't been adapted to fit QSS yet), so you might want to change that to better reflect your intentions.

W/r/t conculture--there haven't been very many comments as of late, most of the activity has been on the Facebook group! Just tell me your Facebook ID and I'll give you an invite.

Welcome back! Juanmartinvelezlinares 19:52, 29 April 2017 (PDT)

Thank you. I'm not a fan of Facebook but I joined today specifically for joining in the IB group. My ID (I think) is simply Charles Brickner. Looking forward to joining the group. Caeruleancentaur 18:06, 1 May 2017 (PDT)

I can't say as I have much to add, but Paraguay's empty page makes me feel like it's *exactly* the same as our world's (my best friend was accepted to the Peace Corps and he's down there as we speak, so he's piqued my interest in this former hermit kingdom of South America and its post-Strößner opening). Do you think you could take Paraguay under your wing as well, Fr. C? P.S. I took the liberty of looking you up on Facebook. Please expect a friend-request from my account and then a subsequent invitation to the group. Thanks, Misterxeight 15:05, 3 May 2017 (PDT)

Thank you. Caeruleancentaur 16:25, 3 May 2017 (PDT)

Proposal on the borders of Tawantinsuyu

Proposal for the International Borders of Tawantinsuyu

• In keeping with the preceding discussions, I would like to make the following proposal concerning the international borders of Tawantinsuyu. I base this on the map of the Inca Empire which can be found on the Wikipedia page "Inca Empire". It is a map of South America with the national borders overlaid with the extent of the Inca Empire.

• The New Kingdom of Nova Granada: According to the IB map of South America, the New Kingdom of Nova Granada lies to the north of Tawantinsuyu. This kingdom includes *here's* Ecuador. Since *here's* Inca Empire extended north into *here's" Ecuador, I propose that some kind of treaty be entered into which establishes the border from the mouth of the Jubones River to its headwaters, thence by a straight line to the confluence of the Paute and Zamora Rivers (which become the Santiago River and flow into *here's* Peru). This would put *here's* Ecuador's provinces of El Oro, Loja, Zamora-Chinchipe, and the southwestern portion of Morona-Santiago in Tawantinsuyu.

• Perú: Perú is a terra incognita. There is nothing on the IB page except for a few bits of info in the info box and a mention of the borders. Therefore, as I understand it, there are no QSS's that can be violated. I propose that the totality of Perú be incorporated into Tawantinsuyu. It is a member of the Castilian Commonwealth of Nations and would need to be removed from that organization, since Tawantinsuyu is not a member.

• Charcas: Charcas is also a terra incognita. There is nothing on the IB page except for a few bits of info in the info box and a mention of the borders. Therefore, as I understand it, there are no QSS's that can be violated. I propose that the totality of Charcas be incorporated into Tawantinsuyu. It is a member of the Andean Pact (about which there is no information). Tawantinsuyu would continue to be a member if someone would explain the purpose of the pact.

• Chile: There is a good bit of history on the Chile page, but some of it needs to be worked on. "In 1881, the government signed a treaty with Rio de L'Argent confirming Chilean sovereignty over the Strait of Magellan." This is not reflected in the IB map. "As a result of the War of the Pacific with Peru and Charcas (1879-83), Chile expanded its territory northward by almost one-third, eliminating Charcas' access to the Pacific, and acquired valuable nitrate deposits...", but the map shows that Charcas has quite a long coast line. And I can't find any other reference to a War of the Pacific. In the spirit of compromise we could establish the border at the Río Camarones and thence east, south of the Salar de Surire, to the border of Riu de l'Argent, thus transferring *here's* province of Arica y Parinacota from Chile to Tawantinsuyu. Caeruleancentaur 16:29, 3 May 2017 (PDT)

I'm going to have to veto the northern incorporation of Peru--Carlos does mention rather explicitly in the "History of Castile and Leon" that a native advance was stopped by the Castilians, leaving a northern "white" state of Peru centred on Lima. As for the incorporation of territories to the South--I personally don't see any issues with it, but first we'd need to check with the rest of the group on Facebook. I know M. Hicken checks up on the wiki every now and then, but to get the attention of most members we'd need to use the Facebook group. I looked for your name on Facebook and there seems to be several Charles Brickners--which one exactly are you? Juanmartinvelezlinares 21:08, 3 May 2017 (PDT)

I see you've done some homework! :-) Above in "Compromise" you suggest that Peru be incorporated into Tawantinsuyu. Now you veto it. Thanks for the info. I'm good with it; less homework for me. I'll proceed with incorporating (when given the word) Charcas and northern Chile into Tawantinsuyu. I'm the Charles Brickner whose photo is of me robed in my green vestments.Caeruleancentaur 05:17, 4 May 2017 (PDT)

Coat of Arms

I found a Tawantinsuyu coat of arms in the Internet. There would be some modification to suit the description in the constitution though.

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Greater-Arms-of-the-Incan-Empire-643229513

I may upload a Tawantinsuyu flag based on this:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banner_of_the_Inca_Empire.svg

What are your opinions?

--General tiu 21:50, 3 May 2017 (PDT)

Thanks for the links. A great deal of modification would be necessary. I read that TitschMaster created the arms out of whole cloth; they're not historical. Not that that's wrong; I just think these arms don't represent my Tawantinsuyu.

• First, I think a llama is essential as one of the supporters considering the importance of that animal to the culture. With respect to the jaguar, it is not found in the mountains, according to the Wikipedia article, but there is this from the same article: "In pre-Columbian Central and South America, the jaguar was a symbol of power and strength. Among the Andean cultures, a jaguar cult disseminated by the early Chavín culture became accepted over most of what is today Peru by 900 BC. The later Moche culture of northern Peru used the jaguar as a symbol of power in many of their ceramics. In the religion of the Muisca, who inhabited the cool Altiplano Cundiboyacense in the Colombian Andes, the jaguar was considered a sacred animal and during their religious rituals the people dressed in jaguar skins".
• The blue of the shield is puzzling as it is not one of the four colors representing the four "suyus".
• I had given no thought to mantling. It would be difficult since only two tinctures/metals can be used. And why it's lined in ermine is beyond me since the stoat is not native to South America.
• The snake/rainbow charge is exactly what I want as the charge on the square quarterly flag.
• The compartment is also a puzzle; what is it? It seems to me to be merely an ornamental design. A range of snow-covered mountains would be more appropriate.
• The Inti, sun, (known in heraldry as a sun in his splendor) on the shield I prefer to us in lieu of a crest, issuant from the top of the shield.
• 'Nuff said.

This is exactly the charge that I want placed on the square flag. This flag can be seen at http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xi.html. Thanks for your help.Caeruleancentaur 06:25, 4 May 2017 (PDT)

Plus, that is someone's property and it's not necessarily guaranteed to be open for the public to take. That's probably why all pieces of graphic art are all in-house: no risk of someone saying "hey I made that, you can't use it!" this way. Course, now all of our graphic artists're gone, so we're kind of stuck now.

I'll just ask this here. Fr, are the majority of the Tawantinsuyans no longer Catholic, or do Inti worship and Catholicism have roughly equal number of adherents, or is it like say in the Caribbean or Brazil where something like candomble or voodoo exist alongside Catholicism?

Misterxeight 10:00, 4 May 2017 (PDT)

Inti worship and Catholicism are the predominant religions in Tawantinsuyu. I'm not sure which of the two is in the majority. There may be small number of other religions. There is no syncretism. Inti worship is the state religion, but there is freedom of religion.

Thanks for using the word "Tawantinsuyans". I wasn't sure how to name the inhabitants. Maybe they shorten it to "'Suyans"!Caeruleancentaur 12:14, 4 May 2017 (PDT)

I made a flag. http://ib.frath.net/w/File:Tawantinsuyuflag.png But it might be temporary.

--General tiu 09:05, 5 May 2017 (PDT)

PERFECT!! I would be grateful if you would put it on the Tawantinsuyu page under "Culture". The aviation roundel is similar, the same quarterly division, except that, instead of being square it is round! And it lacks the charge. As soon as I can get my proposal approved and that label off the page, I'll set up some flight schedules as I have done for the Himalayan Confederacy. How grand to see airships sailing back and forth across the Andes. Caeruleancentaur 06:30, 8 May 2017 (PDT)

---Why not the square flag as the roundel itself, at least a simplified version (without the sigil)? After all the RTC has a square aviation symbol. --General tiu 18:04, 8 May 2017 (PDT)

Proposal II for the International Borders of Tawantinsuyu

• It is difficult to determine from the IB maps where the borders lie in terms of here's borders. I find it difficult to organize the internal structure of the nation (cities, national parks, etc.) without knowing where *there's* borders are in terms of *here's* borders.
• Therefore, for the sake of argument, I'm going to include in Tawantinsuyu here's Peruvian provinces, from south to north (more or less) of Tacna, Monquegua, Arequipa, Puno, Ica, Ayacucho, Apurimac, Cuzco, Madre de Dios, Huancavelica, Junin, and the eastern half of Ucayali. The other provinces are in *there's* Perú.
• From Bolivia I include all of its provinces with the exception of Santa Cruz, which seems to belong (more or less) to Paraguay.
• Assuming that Chile did regain the land to the south down to the Straits of Magellan (as claimed in the IB article on Chile), I will include in Tawantinsuyu, *here's* Chile's three northernmost provinces of Arica y Parinacota, Tarapacá, and northern Antofagasta as far south as the entire course of the Río Loa. Caeruleancentaur 12:17, 4 May 2017 (PDT)

Some changes I would make to better match the maps of Tawantinsuyu and Charcas:

• Judging from the map of South America, Peru includes that little bump on the coast where Ica and the far-western part of Arequipa Region are located, so they should probably be included as part of Peru.
• The Santa Cruz region isn't the only part of *here*'s Bolivia that's part of Paraguay *there*--judging from the map again, the provinces of Gran Chaco, Hernando Siles and Luis Calvo also appear to be part of Paraguay *there*.
• On the other hand, it appears that the western parts of Salta and Jujuy provinces in Argentina are both part of Charcas, rather than Riu de l'Argent. In addition, it appears that the entirety of Antofagasta belongs to Charcas, not just the northern part. I'm not 100% sure if Chile extends all the way to the Straits of Magellan *there*, but I certainly ain't complaining if it does. If it didn't, what were your plans for the northernmost regions of Chile?

That's all for now. Keep up the great work!! Juanmartinvelezlinares 09:28, 8 May 2017 (PDT)

• I can see that you studied at the same school of cartography as I, what with your technical terms: "that little bump on the coast"! :-) As I see it, that little appendix/uvula in southern Perú is coterminous with the region of Lima in "here's" Peru. I had to leave Lima in Perú!! This would leave Ica and Arequipa as a part of Tawantinsuyu.
• I've no objection to removing the provinces of Hernando Siles and Luis Calvo from Chuquisaca and Gran Chaco from Tarija. I was describing the borders in generalities and couldn't discern the extent of Paraguay.
• I've no problem with including the western portions of Jujuy and Salta in Tawantinsuyu; perhaps as far west as the Quebrada de Humahuaca in Jujuy and the provinces of Los Andes, La Poma, Cachi, and Molinos in Salta. And I will accept the entirety of Antofagasto.
• The only reason I moved into Chile was because I'm assuming that Chile does, indeed, go to the Straits. If it does not, I'd be loathe to take too much territory from them. Although they did, apparently, seize it from Charcas. Maybe just the region of Arica and Parinacota and not the two farther south. I'm trying to use text in preference to maps. The maps are so often not updated. The WorldMap2001 still does not depict the seven Himalayan nations.
• P.S. "Here's" Chile is such an interesting shape. With all its thinness, there is actually one region that has no coast! Caeruleancentaur 19:28, 11 May 2017 (PDT)