Talk:Oscar de Bhílde

Oh cool! Just reproducing a bit of the talk onlist:

> Deiniol Jones wrote:
>
> > It makes me wonder if indeed there was an Oscar Wilde *there*- I would
> > assume so- and if his fate was any different to his counterpart *here*.
> >
> > I would assume that he'd have an Irish name, for starters, being an
> > Irishman (Keith?).
>
> Oscar de Bhilde is his name there. He's on my list of Irish artists and
> writers to do write-ups on.
>
> We'd have to talk about it, but I think he wouldn't have been as
> vilified *there* as he unfortunately was *here*.
>
> > Also, as Ireland was a dominion of Kemr at the time,
> > I assume that his father would have been knighted by Gereint XI and the
> > Wildes would have moved to Castreleon rather than London. Because of
> > this, I wonder if his story would have been the same, as I have no idea
> > what Kemrese attitudes to homosexuality were at that time(Andrew?), nor
> > if he would have fallen in love with the son of a litiguous Scottish
> > peer- perhaps *there's* Oscar fell in love with the son of the shy and
> > retiring Duke of Defed who never kicked up a fuss and so Oscar wasnever
> > thrown in prison?
>
> A big part of me wishes for the latter!
>
> On this, I've no idea as yet though. If anybody wants to start an
> article on de Bhilde, fire away. I'll check it for any possible
> conflicts with Irish history *there* and do as much work on it as I can
> myself.

A very big question comes up of what kind of literary artistic society would be found in Catreleon versus London, as to which de Bhilde would be attracted to! In need be, de Bhilde could easily have settled somewhere else when he got into trouble. The man had a world-wide reputation *here* after all and toured America at least once (and there were some priceless stories to tell about THAT...!).

I look forward to what further develops! Zahir 08:59, 15 December 2005 (PST)

Uilliam?

Is there any reason why you've chosen Uilliam over Liam? It's quite an archaic-sounding name *here* and *there*. It's like somebody calling their child Perseval *here*. Not unknown, just odd.

Translation?

Don't know if maybe some of (or all) the titles of his works should be translated. Zahir 08:16, 16 December 2005 (PST)

Problems with the sodomy piece.

This isn't England's concern. England had no interest in Ireland there: it was all Kemr. You'll have to check the list archive, but I think it's established that things with him didn't pan out quite as close to here as described right now. --Kgaughan 15:43, 11 March 2006 (PST)

I was assuming that de Bhilde's career was international, like Oscar Wilde's. And his story was not about either Ireland or Kemr. We discussed on the list the idea that there was this interesting relationship between London and Castreleon, akin to that between London and Paris *here* in that the latter was supposed to be more "free" and generally fun. But London had a thriving theatre. Just as Andrew Lloyd Webber in our world and times spends plenty of time in London and New York, so it makes sense that de Bhilde would in effect have homes in both London and Castreleon. But the premise is that while he was arrested in England, technically he was a Kemrese subject. Is that clear? Zahir 16:09, 11 March 2006 (PST)

International, yes, but he spent most of his time there flitting between Castreleon and

I'm just wondering why he would have converted to Catholicism- surely he would have been one already? After all, it's the majority religion in Kemr, England and Ireland- Anglicanism doesn't exist *there*. Deiniol 17:15, 11 March 2006 (PST)

Recall that Oscar Wilde was from Catholic Ireland, yet converted on his deathbead, just like de Bhilde. Zahir 17:23, 11 March 2006 (PST)

Indeed, but he was from an Anglicised family. *Here* that means Anglican and English-speaking. *There* it's meaningless. There wouldn't have been any "Anglo-Irish" in Ireland as England had no dealings with Ireland, no colonists, no Anglicisation. There would have been Cambro-Irish (but, if I understand Keith's ideas correctly, nowhere near as many as there were Anglo-Irish *here*), the Cambro-Irish being Catholic and (probably) Brithenig-speaking. What I'm getting at is that it's highly unlikely that he wouldn't have been Catholic in the first place because the historic conditions which led to Wilde's Anglicanism *here* simply didn't exist. Deiniol 20:03, 11 March 2006 (PST)

My conception of the Cambro-Irish identity there is that they felt themselves to be Irish first, and Cambrian second, and only by ancestry. Wilde and his family held a similar attitude *here*. Irish would be their first and home language, but they would be equally fluent in Brithenig. They would rarely, if at all, identify themselves as Chomro. In number, there would be just as high a proportion as Anglo-Irish as *here*, albeit because they were more assimilated, would not be as noticable. By far, most would be Cambrian Rite Catholics like the rest of the island, with Calvinists and Presbyterians second and third. And de Bhílde was a Catholic, albeit a rather lapsed one.

The pattern of settlement with the Cambro-Irish is notably different, and primarily down to Ireland *there* being more urbanised, and the Cambro-Irish were not quite so restricted to the middle class and ascendency.

One suggested, but by no means necessary tweak would be to change Melmoth to Maolmoth. The spelling is not only a bit more likely, but the word maol means bald and implies devotion to a saint. It gives the name an extra bit of meaning that Wilde *here* and *there* would have appreciated.

I would, however, add the deathbed conversion back in, although change it to state that he re-entered the church's fold again. --Kgaughan 15:38, 13 March 2006 (PST)

Good point. I will change that. Zahir 20:06, 11 March 2006 (PST)