Talk:Manchuria

Cyrillic Alphabet for Manchu/Xibe

I'm a big fan of the Manchu's, so when I saw that this was a page and that Manchu is still a surviving language in IB (more than our world's 18 speakers in Manchuria-proper and a couple thousand Xibe speakers in Uyghurstan/Xinjiang), I was really happy. I've been thinking about the possibility of a Cyrillic alphabet for the Manchu language to make it easier to write, and what do I find on its page, but a brief statement on the Cyrillic alphabet for Manchu. After only a few seconds of research, I find that the Chinese made a Cyrillic alphabet for the Xibe language (which is exactly the same as Manchu but the people called themselves a different term out of fear of anti-Manchu reprisal post-1912) in 1957, which never caught on and is found here: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/xibe.htm. I would like to propose that we bring this alphabet into Ill Bethisad and keep three scripts for the Manchu language and the Xibe dialect: the traditional script, Cyrillic, and Sogdian (for the rule of cool). Misterxeight 12:24, 26 September 2015 (PDT)

I grant you your boon as Arch-Regent of the Far East. BoArthur 12:33, 26 September 2015 (PDT)

*There* the Xibe did in fact use the Cyrillic script, but after the collapse of the Tokuz Okuz they switched back to Sogdo. There was also a proposal in the Manchu Autonomous Region to use Cyrillic, but it didn't catch on because of association with the SNOR. However, the Manchu government is considering making Cyrillic and Sogdo co-official at the very least... maybe they decided to approve the additional scripts? ;) Juan Martin Velez Linares 17:20, 26 September 2015 (CDT)

Sounds like you've been listening to my transdimensional wireless, Martin. So let it be written, so let it be done, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... BoArthur 15:39, 26 September 2015 (PDT)

Can we write that in, then, that Sogdo and Cyrillic are co-official scripts? Misterxeight 14:56, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

Referendum currently going on. Should be co-official by the end of this year! News story maybe? ;) Juan Martin Velez Linares 17:07, 27 September 2015 (CDT)

Where does it say anywhere that there's a referendum? Misterxeight 15:11, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

I updated the page to say that there is discussion in government about the changes. Do with it what you will, news stories, from rival news agencies, maybe? BoArthur 15:22, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

Oh, I missed that. I could throw something together, why not. Misterxeight 16:02, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

That also begs the question on how the Manchu language has changed over the years since "here" it's only spoken by 18 people. The Manchu language started to die out probably in the 1800's, which means we either need a lot of points of divergences to keep the language alive or we just write about a linguistic revival in Beihanguo post GWII. If 50 million people self-identity as Manchus in this country, that's a lot of potential speakers to work with. It might not be 50 million, but I hope that it's in the millions. In our world, Irkutsk University had a flourishing Manchu language program; I think it'd be ironic if the Manchu language revival happened in Russia and flowed out from there into Beihanguo and Uyghurstan. Misterxeight 16:22, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

I would argue that it was a top-down push, like Cornwall, *here*, pushing Cornish. That would start post-OGW, when Beihanguo was created. The Manchus, cheesed off that they weren't given their own country, pushed a separatist agenda to at least have their autonomy, and that's language push was part of it. This worked well for Yanbian, because they began pushing their own Corean language agenda, and shortly after the Manchurians got their own autonomy, they extended it to Yanbian. BoArthur 18:06, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

Excellent work! I'll let you decide how many speak it in Manchuria and how many don't. I imagine that it won't just be ethnic Manchu's learning it, either, truth be told. You know, here's a thought. What if Harbin becomes the center of the Manchu renaissance and a haven for non-SNORist Russians? Harbin could really be my kind of town. Misterxeight 18:49, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

Hmmm. Vermütlich, guter Herr! Perhaps Harbin has its own Ashkenazi Jewish community... (well, at least those left over from the ones who didn't hightail it to Riugioñ...) Juan Martin Velez Linares 17:07, 27 September 2015 (CDT)

Or was that merely a way-point on the exodus from SNORist Russia?

As for quantities, we're into the second and third generations of it being taught in school, so I would say that the portion speaking it are going to be fairly high, unless they're recalcitrant populations like Yanbian. I would imagine that they adopted it like immigrants here adopted it, since it was the prestige language, and to "get anywhere" you have to be able to speak the official government lingo, as it were. I'd say that 75% speak it as a first or second language, and that most outside of the province immediately adjoining Beihanguo are happy about it. I'd say they're at 45% speaking it in their homes in the two provinces north of the Liaodong Peninsula. the border province is probably more like 30%, higher percentage away from the border, lower percents closer to Beihanguo. BoArthur 20:39, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

Good stuff. That's millions of speakers now; let no one call Manchu a moribund language. I'm excited to think that the Chinese Orthodox Church definitely celebrates Divine Liturgy and Church life is conducted in Manchu up north, and that people from all walks of life can pass down the streets of Changchun and can speak Manchu, use social media in Manchu, call people in other countries in Manchu, and everything else that anyone could do in Mandarin. Misterxeight 21:24, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

I wonder if there was a chart for a Manchurian version of Sogdo and Cyrillic, and compared side by side with Manchu script and the Latin transliteration. --General tiu 17:54, 28 September 2015 (PDT)

Probably not, but that doesn't mean we couldn't make one. Wikipedia has a list of each sound of the Manchu script and Omniglot has that covered in Cyrillic; now all we need is for Geoff to come out of retirement and add Sogdo to the chart. Misterxeight 20:42, 28 September 2015 (PDT)

I feel like we could use this sound clip on our page. It's a Gospel passage, so perhaps it's the work of the Manchu Mission of the Chinese Orthodox Church. Good stuff! http://gospelgo.com/x/Xibe.htm Misterxeight 20:50, 19 July 2016 (PDT)

Flag?

Do they have a flag? --General tiu 08:33, 27 September 2015 (PDT)

My brain immediately jumps to Eddie Izzard speaking of flags ... But I'm sure they have a flag, but not one that we've gotten through the dimensional sifter. BoArthur 15:28, 27 September 2015 (PDT)