Talk:Caribbean League

Pôrto Rico and the Cruzans

I'm almost rubbing my hands here. The map shows that Pôrto Rico is part of the SR. But, unless I have missed something, it isn't. It recieves developmental aid from the SR, yes, but that does not necessarily make it part of the SR.

I'm not sure how that happened. The map of North America, http://www.geocities.com/elemtilas/ill_bethisad/maps.htm clearly shows P.R. as quite separate from anything SR, NAL or Cuban/Floridian. Also note that Trinidad (being part of Trinidad & Tobago) is English as well.

As for their responses, I can only really comment for the Cruzan Islanders. They favour the proposal as long as it excludes the Cubans and the Floridians (whom they still despise), and as long as their influence within the proposed CaL-SLC is not overshadowed by bigger members (so this would mean the exclusion of Jamaica, The Bahamas, Belice, the Mosquito Coast, and possibly also Pôrto Rico).

Boreanesia 00:55, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

I think that the other, small islands would demand that the larger islands have an equal representation, fearing the exact same thing. I had misunderstood about PR, and the maps will be changed tonight. Also, same thing with T&T. BoArthur

Comments and Questions

First I'd like say that this is a novel and very interesting proposal. It is worthy of serious consideration. I also think that it should ultimately be accepted.

Most of the Caribbean basin is already Commonwealth territory, so I can easily see why C territories would be favourable. One or more of them probably got the whole idea started in the first place! ;)

I think we need to know more about what the CaL is supposed to be. It sounds like the proposal really calls for general independence of the region under a government based on the North American model without actually becomming part of the NAL. I am not at all adverse to this idea - though it would naturally preclude the membership of the Kingdom of Mosquito Coast, P.R. (independent countries) and Jamaica, Bahamas (NAL provinces).

• Will this be done within the Commonwealth? I.e., would the new nation of (need to choose a name: Caribbean League, Antilles, Caribbea, whatever else?) become a member of the Commonwealth; or is it being proposed that they would go it alone (almost securing reigonal poverty and lack of security and etc)? I think it would be very unlikely that they would reject C membership.

• If this is to be a new country, then I see no reason to invite Mos.C., Jamaica, etc -- they are already either independent or part of another C country. Twould be very bad form! I also agree that Cuba would not be invited (independent and still rankled by its own involvement in F-C). Empire of Hayti is seen in America and and the Caribbean territories as still quite unstable, though quite respectable. Their efforts at stamping out vestiges of F-C-ism are seen as admirable and there are many who contribute to their efforts (either privately, or via one of the great Francophone backers of the fledgeling emperor).

• Re P.R. -- it is not SR territory, it is independent, and while it is friendly with the NAL / Commonwealth and the SR (received some aid from all, at present), it is firm in its notion of remaining independent. Too many bad memories of a unified Caribbean under F-C, I guess. They would be good trade partners for the new CaL to court, but I think they would reject membership in the CaL at this point. Perhaps in the future things will change...

• Re South Florida: CaL may suggest what it will. I don't think they would be too keen on inviting S.Fl. into the CaL as of yet. Too much bad blood -- and let's face facts: the Floridians are not keen on any kind of foreign involvement in Florida. I am quite sure they would reject the NAL-like, Commonwealth rooted country like CaL out of hand. The NAL has already made its position clear that S.Fl. will not become an NAL province (feeling is assuredly mutual). At best, if S.Fl. were to be abandonned by the Irish/Coroners, then the NAL would assume administration in their stead, but would seek to push them towards independence or else try to foist them back on Iberia or perhaps the Communidad Centroamericana.

• The response to the Tobago situation, already being discussed diplomatically by England and the invaders, would of course be welcome by all C member states and territories. There are already special forces units in place in Tobago, and of course, the Navy is awaiting developments in the region as well. One way or the other, England will have the situation corrected.

• Curious: what is this "power vacuum" that is supposed to be the impetus for the formation of the CaL? Most of the Caribbean territories saw F-C as an invading force, and certainly the C did as well. Now that F-C is gone and things are made right again (cue heavenly steel-drum bands and blooming fruit trees and happy Caribbean children cavorting on beaches), why would this state of affairs be seen as vacuous? I might suggest that the (admittedly unrecorded) efforts of the Caribbean peoples have fostered a sense of unity heretofore unknown. It might be this united effort and will that has created a sense of the need for such a national structure.

• Curious: why is Navassa I. separated in the proposed map? Is it privately owned? If so, by who? (I could guess, but would be surprised if right!)

Reasons as to why the French colonies are more favourable than the Batavian colonies need to be hammered out. Distance might be a possibility. I suspect that Batavia itself might be unfavourable (already lost New Amsterdam to the Americans - damned if we lose these islands as well sort of thing). Perhaps France doesn't care that much (drain on the exchequer, popular sentiment)? The SR already has good relationships with the Commonwealth and well understand the NAL-type government structure, so I would guess that they would be favourable once the details are worked out. In other words, the Cruzans would become a province of the CaL in the same way New Sweden is a province of the NAL. Both retain a relationship with the SR while being part of a different country. Mind you, the Cruzanoes are probably still somewhat shellshocked and may not be quite ready to leave the bosom of mother Scandinavia. They were lied to once, and may not be ready to trust, even though the invitation comes not from an invading power but from their peers.

I would note in closing that this isn't something that can be had for Christmas. It would take some time, perhaps another year or more for the details to be worked out (I'm assuming that you've only just discovered a trend in the Caribbean that has been going on since Liberation Day or thereabouts).

[PB]

I thought the Mosquito Coast was an English Territory, and thus possibly amenable to the idea. I've made comments regarding S. FL. feel free to add your own into the article proper, you have my agreement of the situation. The power vacuum has been addressed, in part. I will expand it later. I've added about the French colonies. Perchance the SR would like to proselytize the BK to the NAL Condominium style?

Kingdom of Mosquito Coast was indeed an English colony. It is since (I don't know the exact date) an independent member of the Commonwealth.

As for time frames, yes, I don't expect it overnight. This is a long-term thing...definitely years (as early as 18 months, but doubtful) down the road as they hammer out details. BoArthur

See the "Alternate Solution" below.

Hehe, I like the idea too. I agree with Padraic on all accounts, so I'll keep it short:

• First of all, I'd like to note that this Caribbean League or whatever could be an excellent example of one of those typical IB states, that overlap other countries. If, for example, Jamaica would be part of it, that should by no means exclude the possibility that it also remains part of the NAL.
• The Batavian Antilles. Well, I agree with Dan that they are probably not too keen on such a new state. But my guess is that the islanders will simply go for the solution that is most profitable to them. If the "center" (where would that be, BTW?) can convince them that there's really something in it for them, they might join up. Keep in mind that the relationship of the Batavian Antilles is similar to the structure of the Scandinavian Realm: together with the Batavian Kingdom and most of its former colonies, they are equal constituents of one structure (some sort of "Batavian Realm"). Reality is of course slightly different. The Batavians themselves won't be too happy with the idea of the Antilles becoming part of another state, but on the other hand, since they cost us a lot more money than they bring in, and if it's what the Antillians themselves really want, the BK would comply.
• Don't even think of Latvia giving up Tobago. Several more hundreds of Latvian troops are currently on their way to Tobago, to sell their skin dearly!
• As for South Florida: I'll have to think of an official response from the RTC. Obviously, Florida will not join up. But once Florida is indepedent again, safely in the hand of a new, democratic but nonetheless junta-like government, it might actually decide to rebuild F-C together with a similar government of the Caribbean League! ;)

--IJzeren Jan 11:29, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

It would take some work to integrate the French territories, certainly, as they are already seen by France as territories every bit as integral to France as are the streets of Paris. [PB]

What you say of Jamaica is what I had in mind.

The Batavian Antilles might easily be persuaded then. The "center" would be somewhere in the Antilles chain (Like St. Vincent) so that it's centered on the bulk of member islands.

Perhaps the Latvians could be persuaded to Condominium?

South Florida's pretty much a lost cause, I think it was more of a gesture than anything real, even if they had accepted.

The CaL is forming against the idea of a future iteration of F-C, a way to more forcedly bring the Commonwealth of Nations to bear in protection of their freedoms. BoArthur 13:31, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

That all sounds fine. Though I don't think Jamaica or Bahamas can be provinces within the new country. Certainly, the NAL (of which these two are long-standing and now happily rewon provinces) and the proposed CaL share considerable interests in the region, economic, cultural and defense. I see no reason why Jamaica and Bahamas couldn't participate in joint military (you know, anti piracy, etc) activities as well as the inevitable economic trade union. [PB]

Yeah, I guess pulling in the [Batavian] Antilles wouldn't be a huge problem. And they could still maintain their status within the BK. But like I said: the BK itself will probably not be very happy with the idea. They'll worry about all kinds of unwanted goods finding their way into the motherland even easier with such a construction.

Re:Tobago. Keep in mind that the Latvians simply occupied it. Originally it belonged to the English, although the Latvians were the first to jump in the void after the fall of Florida-Caribbea. So you better think twice about whom you're going to talk to! :)

The Latvians had better rethink their position toot sweet. The Tobagans themselves are not thrilled with the new invaders and were rather looking forward to getting back to life as normal. England is about as cheesed off as it is possible for England to be (I think "bloody miffed" is the term the PM has been using in the press). If their motive was originally to help out a somewhat unsure England, it seems clear now that their motives were much less than honourable. "Dastardly thieves" indeed! Now that England via the FK and Commonwealth have gotten their act together vis-a-vis the Caribbean region, they're rather gung-ho about mopping up this last little mess. Diplomacy is still the hoped for resolution, as we really haven't had a quarrel with Latvia up til now. Keep in mind that special forces are already on the island and the Navy awaits Latvia's ultimate decision. [PB]

Sure, the CaL is forming against the idea of a future iteration of F-C. At least now. But you know how things go in countries like that... democratically elected government makes a mess of it, leftist government fails to clean it up, the army takes over, and there you go! I see a certain ex-colonel Silva Gonzalez already preparing for the presidential elections! ;)

I thought he was dead! I know Mr Bush is alive and well and in "protective custody", but I thought Mr Gonzalez was no more.

About the new map, I notice a few things:

• You list Trinidad as British. But unless I'm mistaken, Carlos has always claimed it as part of Venezôla (which is written with a circumflex, BTW).

Trinidad and Tobago has been English since 1797 -- we got it from the Iberians. Probably part of the messiness surrounding Gibraltar. If Venezola claims it, this is news to me! [PB]

• Instead of "FK Guyana", it would be better to distinguish between "English and Kemrese Guyana".
• What's that long bended line between Cuba and the Bahamas? An island or a displaced borderline?
• May I suggest you draft a list of envisioned and possible memberstates? (including their chances of actually becoming members). Whose initiative is this whole CaL thing, BTW?

Cheers, IJzeren Jan 22:55, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

I would suggest as definite provinces: Antigua & Barbuda (Scotland, incl. Anguila, St. Martin, Barbadoes (England); St. Barthelemy (need a good Scottish saint's name here)); Cayman Is (Kemr); Cruzan Is (SR); Dominica (Scotland); Grenada (England); Guadeloupe (France); St. Kitts and Nevis (England); St. Lucia (England); Martinique (France); Montserrat (Ireland); Trinidad & Tobago (England); Tortuga (Kemr); Turks & Caicos (Kemr); St. Vincent and Grenedines (England). Mark Aruba (BK); Batavian Antilles (BK) and Porto Rico (indep.) down as possibles though unlikelies. Swan Island would probably be transferred to KMC or Belice, or perhaps stand as a condominium between Belice, Mosquito Coast and the Caribbean League.

Further should be noted that Great Inagua is one of the Bahamian islands (seized by Cuba at some point in time) and recently returned as a gesture of amity and good will in the region.

Speaking of Cuba, the news of the CaL is not going down too well in La Habana. They feel severely put upon and insulted by the claims that the new CaL is being put together as a defense against any type of (obvuiously Ibero-Hispanic) F-C type of deal. They will probably try to disuade Porto Rico from joining up. Some papers and politicoes are calling for Cuba to form its own realm in the region (Imperio Cubano, anyone?) -- possibly absorbing southern Florida and P.R. Little in the way of real news gets out of southern Florida, but many see Cuba's shining (and rising) star as a viable option out of the quagmire they're in now. (Literally, given the path of Furicano # I don't Know What, there have been so many this season!) I still think P.R. will not sign on to this sort of arrangement. [PB]

Tobago

(moving this part of the discussion to a separate section)

[JvS] Re:Tobago. Keep in mind that the Latvians simply occupied it. Originally it belonged to the English, although the Latvians were the first to jump in the void after the fall of Florida-Caribbea. So you better think twice about whom you're going to talk to! :)

[PB] The Latvians had better rethink their position toot sweet. The Tobagans themselves are not thrilled with the new invaders and were rather looking forward to getting back to life as normal. England is about as cheesed off as it is possible for England to be (I think "bloody miffed" is the term the PM has been using in the press). If their motive was originally to help out a somewhat unsure England, it seems clear now that their motives were much less than honourable. "Dastardly thieves" indeed! Now that England via the FK and Commonwealth have gotten their act together vis-a-vis the Caribbean region, they're rather gung-ho about mopping up this last little mess. Diplomacy is still the hoped for resolution, as we really haven't had a quarrel with Latvia up til now. Keep in mind that special forces are already on the island and the Navy awaits Latvia's ultimate decision. [PB]

Oh, no worries here! The islanders just lóve their new Latvian overlords! They are incredibly happy with the new situation... And those who disagree with it are mostly agents in paid service of foreign powers, criminals and other scum, and people who suffer from some mental disease. They have already been taken care of properly: the prisons and the mental hospital are quite full already! Besides, several thousands of Latvian immigrants have found a new sunny home in Tobago. I hear that one of these days another 500 or so Latvian troops are heading towards the Caribbean too, in order to protect the population from foreign aggression, and to kick those American invaders finally out of their bay.

Enough material for a new international affair, methinks! I think it's time for some news stuff! ;)) --IJzeren Jan 13:16, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

french departments

If the league is mostly economical and the like, there shouldn't be any issues with them joining but if they have to give up any power which are of the resort of the federal government, there might be a problem. The thing is, oversea departments are supposed to be trated the same as metropolitan ones so to get a different status would create a constitutional crisis. same thing if they had (even symbolicaly) to recognised a sovereign.--Marc Pasquin 16:57, 25 October 2005 (PDT)

The question is also, Marc, how integrated are they into France after a year? Does France even want them? How inclined are they to return to French Departmentship or would they want someone local, someone who they know would be interested in their best interests, and for that matter, a larger community with lots of military power to protect them should F-C make a come-back. BoArthur

As far as "recognising a sovereign" goes, there is no reason why this person has to be a British monarch. After all, the New Swedes, recognise the Scandinavian monarch as their sovereign. In the cases of the French territories, they could recognise the French president as their "sovereign". As far as I can tell, this is not just an economic union (all of the British territories in the region already participate in such a thing), but an actual country, modelled after the NAL.

I think that should any of the French overseas Departments in the Caribbean choose to join the CaL, France would have to liberate them and accept an arrangement similar to that enjoyed by the SR vis-a-vis New Sweden and New Iceland. (The arrangement ìs pretty nice, because it brings the Francophone world into a closer relationship with the Anglo-Kemrese and Scandinavian spheres of influence - not a bad economic and military situation, though they'd be the "junior partner" as it were.) Obviously, if France won't budge (they áre a recalcitrant lot! ;) ) then that leaves the F-O-Ds in a quandry: sue for independence with the LoN? Try to form a revolt? Obviously, it is not the intention of the Commonwealth to seize integral French territories! The CaL could function very nicely without them.

That said, I suspect that the French Overseas Departments in the Caribbean would be invited to participate in the local economic bloc. That only makes sense. [PB]

In answer to Dan:

Considering the long history as part of France, 1 year is no more then a blip. Think of the occupation of the channel islands by the germans *here*. After the german left it went back to the UK without issues. I'd even wager that you had pro-french "maquisard" actions going on all through the occupation. Also, historicaly, countries (no matter which one) do not as a rule just give up part of land they own, violence (or the fear of it) and international pressure are usualy involved.

If the Martiniquaises [?] et al. are as dead set against the proposition as France undoubtedly would be, then I see no good reason to persue the matter further with them. It shouldn't be a goal of the CaL proposal to upset the newly repatriated Overseas Departments. I think some of the present perspective derives from the fact that no one took up the part of France during the recent war (until it came time to rework Hayti), and it simply seems that France had no part to play. Obviously, this is not the case, though their role would of necessity be smaller. [PB]

Now the idea of some sort of association for protection, I have no problem with but to me, that would be more in the form of a joint military treaty signed by the countries involved (france, Batavia, venezuela, the FKs, etc..). From that might eventualy developt some sort of federal identity but that would take decades (not a single, think of the European Union). There might also be oposition from those weary of federalism which they would associate with the FC period.

Indeed -- some kind of treaty (the sort of which I strongly suspect is already in place between France and the FK) would easily take care of this. No special association required.

The final objection I would have is one of balance of power. With an integrated structure whereby the various components would become condominiums, France, the Batavian kingdom and venezuela would stand to lose without gains and the FKs would have the reverse. This I doubt would sit well with the first 3 governments and even some not directly involved might object (at least through diplomatic channels) to this "renewed FK imperialism in the Americas".

Quite so. Though obviously, as the Commonwealth's representative, I think it safe to say that the FK would not mind such gains and advantages. Though I must protest about the "renewed imperialism" bit. Imperialism, to use the same word, on the part of the FK has been a fact of life in North America and the Caribbean since the late 16th or early 17th century, though it might best be referred to as something else anymore. The Commonwealth is not a "greater England" after all. Its territories are not imperial colonies that exist to provide Britain with a high standard of living on the cheap.

There is nothing incidently that would prevent a long term occupation (sorry, peacekeeping mission....) of the various islands. A sort of "germany off the coast" (I talking of *here*'s germany of course) with various "zones" having various rules not out of imperialism (perish the thought) but to prevent a resurgeance of FC diehards.

--Marc Pasquin 16:32, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

I don't follow. Who is supposed to be "occupying"...er, "peacekeeping" whom? Cuba might try it on a limited and considerably revised basis, though probably would steer clear of open warfare. [PB]

An Alternative Solution

It stikes me that an alternative solution, especially if none of the non-Commonwealth territories sign on, is to petition for full provincehood within the NAL. After all, they're trying to form a government modelled after the NAL's - - that's somewhat akin to reinventing the wheel. Most of them (apart from Cayman and T&C) could form one large province (The Antilles) or two smaller (Windward and Leeward Islands respectively). This could be done very quickly. [PB]

Don't listen to him, folks! This is typical for NAL diplomacy: they lure you into their trap and give you the feeling that it is truly the only right thing to do, and then suddenly you wake up one morning and realise that you have ended up as an ordinary colony, and think: was thís what we wanted? Looks what they did in Florida! It's obvious, people. They are trying to abuse the current chaos in former Florida-Caribbea to incorporate its entire territory. If it hadn't been for the RTC, they would have done the same with South Florida, too! SAY NO TO AMERICAN IMPERIALISM!!! ;)

I'm sure you're being facetious here! But I would not be surprised at all if your eloquent gobletygook reflects the attitudes of many!

Seriously now, I think for the Batavian Antilles and probably for the Cruzan Islands too, this wouldn't be much of an option. The Antilles wouldn't object to membership of some supranational organisation in the region, especially if there's something in it for them, but becoming part of another state is an entirely different matter! --IJzeren Jan 00:17, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

Jan has a point there. The Cruzans just regained their independence from Florida, so becoming part of another state is not very palatable, especially one as large as the NAL. The CaL is more palatable because, if the Cruzans have their way, it would consist of tiny Caribbean states no bigger than the Cruzan Islands. Boreanesia 11:22, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

Thus Spake Zarathustra

And so it would seem the Caribbean League has faltered before it ever got off the ground. All the non-Commonwealth territories have naysaid the idea (I suspect that someone must have a newspaper clipping of such a momentous decision!) It seems that the remaining choices are: seek admission to the NAL or incorporate all the various territories into a purely Commonwealth only country. Either should not be a problem or take very long. The timeline could be reduced to a year or less, as it would really only be a shuffling of top-level government structures, rather than trying to sort out various condomunium status of disparate colonial territories. The situation in Tobago can only be improved by either of these alternatives. Perhaps a referrendum could be scheduled for early 2006?

Mind you, like I said elsewhere in this proposal (I think!), some kind of pan-Caribbean supranational organisation (whether economic or defense or police/Shoar Patrol) could still evolve regardless of what the various Commonwealth territories decide to do. It could even grow to involve "fringe" countries on the mainland R. de Tejas, LA, NAL, Florida, Cuba, Communidad Centroamericana, KMC, KBel, Venezola, the Guyanas and perhaps even Brasil and Mejico. [PB]

I'd still like to see the CaL be a separate nation within the Commonwealth Structure, but my views don't matter in the face of the views of the citizens of the Leeward and Windward Islands. Let there be a referrendum, with words and music (signifying nothing. (Like Gilbert and Sullivan?)). Seriously though, I'd like to see this explored, and if they join the NAL, great! (More stability...LA will of course be pleased...) If they form their own "CaL" so much the better! BoArthur

It's not true that all non-Commonwealth countries have naysaid the idea. On the contrary, they would probably go along with some kind of loosely organised confederation, in which they can keep their own independence and their alliance with their respective "motherland partners". The way I see it, that would still be the best solution; it wouldn't make the Batavian Antilles and the Cruzan Islands members of the Commonwealth, but it would place them into one structure with other Commonwealth members. This confederation would be something between a state, a supranational organisation and a condominium! --IJzeren Jan 13:31, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

Then we're no longer talking about a government structure based on the NAL. This is little more than a fairly strong supranational trade and mutual defence organisation. As far as I can tell from the discussion, Batavian Ant., Cruzans and the French Overseas Departments would nòt go along with uniting into a new country.

What a beautiful suggestion! I like it already...now to convince the Scandinavians that they came up with the idea (per Jante's Law) and get the French, Batavians and Latvians to go along.... BoArthur

I agree with Dan. Great suggestion. As for convincing the Scandinavians that they came up with the idea, well... that would be against Jante's Law. Even if they did came up with the idea, they wouldn't openly admit that they came with it (as per Jante's Law). ;) They'd prefer to sell the idea as one arrived at through concensus: "Comrades, many of us want this and that, so I suppose it could be an idea to do so and so, say what?" Boreanesia 06:14, 28 October 2005 (PDT)

You'ld have to now convince the various C. territories to go along with a situation that really is little better than the present state of affairs! The way things are, the Commonwealth, France, the SR and the Batavian Realm áre working in a unified structure that is somewhere between a state, treaty organisation and condominium. I think the C members had always assumed that some sort of treaty organisation would exist between the CaL and any Antillean island territory that doesn't sign on to the League itself. There's probably something I've missed. [PB]

Submission for Deproposalisation

This one's been around for a while. It seems that the non-Commonwealth islands are unlikely to sign on, but I suspect that the Commonwealth ones are pretty keen, especially since the Tobago Incident has been cleared up satisfactorily. This is a pretty long-term idea, so don't expect much action within the next two to five years. I think that, barring any serious disagreement, I'll strike out the proposal tag in the next fortnight or so. Elemtilas 17:17, 9 March 2006 (PST)

You say the "Tobago Incident" has been cleared up...did I miss news articles? And as for the timeline, yes, I was expecting the CaL to exist as of 2008 at the earliest 2011 at the latest...and even then, it would have the government institutions growing and changing from that time forward until something like 2020. BoArthur

Yes...I've got the news clippings regarding the Incident around here somewhere. It was a silly situation. I might simply make up a short article in liew of copying now rather old news articles. Agreed about the timeline. Wonder if we'll all be here to see thát happen!? Elemtilas 17:40, 9 March 2006 (PST)

I think having the articles linked to from the article and having them in the news section would be useful...and I think that it would be good to condense it into an article form. As for being here? I plan on being here for a long long time, that is, unless a bomb drops and we all go *fizzle*!BoArthur 17:56, 9 March 2006 (PST)

Good! That's what I like to hear! As for the articles: I'll get to work on that sometime in the not too distant future. Elemtilas 11:11, 10 March 2006 (PST)

I have a small idea...

I have an idea concerning S. Fl. in the Irish Zone. I was thinking about the islands of Key West, and some thing that happened *here*: They had declared independence from the US in 1982 (publicity, mostly, but with real concerns at hand). Why not have them break away from S. Fl. *there* and have them on board for CaL? It is only an idea, but I like silly little things like this. Seth 16:41, 14 March 2006 (PST)

I would say that the Florida Keys would, under Irish tutelage declare themselves an island-nation and petition for admittance to the CaL. BoArthur

To Date?

Has this floundered or been implemented? In character, that is? Or are discussions still ongoing? --Quentin 17:17, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Like all governments it has been slowed down by bureaucratic red tape. it's still moving forward, but they're hashing out important things like whose picture should be on the currency, and the colors and shapes of it. They're also wrangling over just where the capital should be. Suffice to say, like the Euro zone *here*, this forward movement may take some 30 years. BoArthur 21:17, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

In other words, as good as floundered!

One of the principle impetus for forming the CaL in the first place was the "power vacuum" left by the departing F-C. By in large, this seems to have amounted to little more than political hype. For the rest of the consitutents, they all seem to recognise the need for some kind of regional government or consortium that is not colonial in nature, but I think there is also a real fear or concern about NAL domination over the economics of the region. Let's face it: places like Barbados and St. Kitts are already popular tourist / vacation destinations for Americans (among others). There is a reason for concern that the NAL might try to exercise a little too much influence over the new government. Whether by buying favors or perhaps by withholding trade if they don't get what they want. Should also be noted that there are strong minorities who believe that constiutuents like Cayman Iss. or Barbados should join up with one of the great "powers" of the region -- for example, the former should join with Jamaica and become part of that province, or the latter should join with T&T and become part of that county. Others hold that all the British colonies (i.e., everything in red on the map in the article, except for Trinidad and Tobago) should form a single constituency (perhaps called Antillea) and propose that union to the Council Fire and seek admission as a rather larger province. Perhaps even including Jamaica and inviting T&T to come over. This of course wouldn't be of much help to the French, SR and BK colonies in the region, but it is on many people's minds.

So, yeah. Lot's of nice red tape. Lot's of wrangling. Few basic issues resolved. It could take 30 years; but I think if they got their act together and came to an agreement over some basics, they could get moving within a decade or less. Didn't take Nunavik or N.I. terribly long to sort themselves out. They came together early and decided on a Plan. That's something that the Caribbean colonies haven't had much opportunity to do. I would suspect that had the F-C not been so troublesome in the region, we would have seen a vèry different Caribbean *there*. Elemtilas 15:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Trinidad and Tobago

I noticed quite a lot of out-of-date information in this article regarding T&T. Please see Tobago for the post-Caribbean-War history of the county. Elemtilas 15:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)