Talk:Balkans

Well, I'm going to be the first to say it. The maps are great but they're missing something, aren't they? Xliponia!!!!!!! <g> Zahir 07:01, 21 November 2005 (PST)

Ha ha! Zahir, you beat me to the punch! And I'm sure that Kyrmse would be proud to see that you and I are watching out for his lovely nation on the Adriatic/Mediterannean confluence. BoArthur 08:31, 21 November 2005 (PST)

Hehe, indeed. But in all honesty, I'll have to say something in Ferko's defense: these maps are among the oldest ever made for IB! I don't know precisely when they were made, but definitely before 2002. --IJzeren Jan 11:10, 21 November 2005 (PST)

I think we all figured that. Still, the opportunity was too good to pass up! Zahir 12:41, 21 November 2005 (PST)

Indeed. Since Kyrmse could not defend his fine nation himself, we have stepped forward as Knights Errant to protect the country from any wrongs. ;) BoArthur 14:45, 21 November 2005 (PST)

I'm sure (even if I write this very belatedly) that Xliponia will make it into these beautiful (alas, so mistaken!) maps! Kyrmse 19:03, 16 July 2006 (PDT)

Regarding history of Serbia

Look at Balkans#Historical map of Dalmatia, showing borders in 977, 1261, 1571 and the present. According to this map, in 977 there could exist a Serbian country eastwards Dalmatia. However, in 1261 there is no Serbia! Dalmatia literally ate it. In 1517 obviously it was conquered by the Turks and later it became a part of Austo-Dalmatia. Then Danubian Federation, and then CSDS, and finally in 1994 Serbia has become a country of itself again. So 1261-1994, that would be like... *seven hundred and thirty three* years, more or less. And I can presume that in 977 eastwards Dalmatia there was probably Bulgaria, not Serbia. I'm almost totally sure about that. So, there was never in the history a single Serbian country??? Please take a look at this... When I came here for the first time, I was delighted. Then I saw that my birth and living place is part of Sanjak *there*, although *here* there are no Muslims where I live; it's almost totally Serbian (more than 97% of population are the Serbs). But that was OK for me, I could accept that. Now I see that obviously there is no enough place for the Serbs neither in Ill Bethisad's history nor in its geography. I must say that I'm very dissapointed now. --George D. Bozovic (talk) 18:07, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

Serbophobia? Hehe, no. I've explained the reasons why I'd done so little work with Serbia and other Balkan states. But in person, the Real Me is certainly not Serbophobic. I'm Hungarian (I've gotten a few good grillings at times for not being anti-Serb, heh), have relatives in Vojvodina, govorim ekavski... and I even lost $100 in the world cup that I bet on the Plavi! ;) Dalmatinac

You should better bet on Serbian water polo team; we always win that. ;) After 1990s, our football team sucks... --George D. Bozovic (talk) 03:07, 15 July 2006 (PDT)

Haha! Waterpolo is the only sport Hungary is still strong at - always have been good games, when Hungary played Yugoslavia. As far as football goes, Serbia is still way better off than Hungary... (I remember thinking in 1998, what if SFRJ didn't fall apart... that team would have destroyed everyone else at the World Cup... Milosevic, Jugovic, Stankovic, Boksic, Suker, Ladic all on one team? That really would have been something to see.) Dalmatinac

There's room. That is why there is a Serbia. But you must also remember that we base many events *there on events *here*. Dalmatia took Serbia, and then there was no Serbia until 1994. But be glad there is a Serbia! Seth

But consider--those maps only indicate that Serbia did not exist as an independent state for those years. Culturally, it may well have retained an identity much as Wales did after the Norman Conquest *here* or as many other Balkan states amid the trading of territories between Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarians, etc. Zahir 22:14, 13 July 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the historical maps and what you have said here and the talk page of BoArthur - the IB is not complete and never will be, that is, it is possible that only some basic facts about the history of Serbia were created and there are no good maps and such as the area was not developed well. If you are interested in this area, it is up to you to create those maps and new facts in the times of history when these facts are not created. Maybe Serbia was an autonomous area inside Dalmatia similarly as for example Hungary in Austria/Hungary? Maybe the Serbs were constantly fighting for independence and revolting against the Dalmatian rule? Maybe there were times when they achieved that independence for brief periods, then Serbia was reconquered again? Maybe due to the Dalmatian opression if it existed there is a large Serbian diaspora elsewhere (and the information about the culture of these communities could be created)? Maybe Dalmatians and Serbians coexisted peacefully and the Serbian culture influenced the Dalmatian one in some way? There might be as well Serbian communities in Croatia, Sanjak and other neigboring countries, maybe larger or smaller ones than in the real world depending on the reasons and the historical facts you create. Regarding the Sanjak, you can also attempt to create the information about the situation there and its history. Maybe the muslims were resettled there by the Dalmatians in order to "Divide and rule" if the Serbs were revolting? Maybe there were some other reasons for their immigration to Sanjak/the growth of their population/the possible expulsion of the Serbs from the area that did not exist in the real world? Depending on this, there might be reasons for Serbian-Sanjaki conflicts or even wars in past. In other words, what has not been yet created is up to you to create. Good luck! Abdul-aziz 03:59, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

One thing I'm wondering, without the ethnic cleansing of the the 90s, wouldn't Serbia *there* be a bit more multi ethnic ? --Marc Pasquin 07:26, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

I believe that there are some Bulgarians living in the eastern and south-eastern parts of Serbia (so-called the Torlakian lands), and some Croats living in Nord-Bosnia and Vojvodina, too. I also believe that Serbs live in Oltenia (in Banat ragion), Croatia (in Slavonia region), in Sanjak, and in Dalmatia (in Bosnia and Montenegro respectively). --George D. Bozovic (talk) 07:42, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

Still, 95% percent (as per the article) seems high. *here*, the most recent census I could find (2002) shows 82% and thats after the balkan war and excluding Kosovo. You would expect that *there* the number would be lower then that or at least, in need of a strong explanation is to why is so monocultural. --Marc Pasquin 09:18, 14 July 2006 (PDT)

Vojvodina is the most multicultural part of Serbia. Beside Serbs, there live Hungarians, Croats, Dalmatians, Romanians, Jews, and even Germans and Russians. However, the rest of Serbia isn't that much multicultural. Bosnia and Central Serbia are almost totally Serb-inhabitted. There are only some Croats in Bosnia, but not many of them at all. In Eastern and Southern Serbia there are some Bulgarians (in Bosilegrad, Pirot, and Zaječar), but again not many of them. When I wrote 95%, I thought that Vojvodina wasn't part of Serbia *there*, because numerous maps show so. Later Ferko told me on the mailing list that it actually is in Serbia, so this should be changed now. 82% does seem quite appropriate. --George D. Bozovic (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2006 (PDT)