Talk:Ukraine

SLOB logo proposal

proposal for a symbol for SLOB --Marc Pasquin 16:48, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Looks cool as all get-out. Zahir 16:53, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

"as all get out" ? --Marc Pasquin 16:58, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

*sigh* Sometimes--like now--I feel so very very old. "As all get-out" is (somewhat) obsolete slang that means "to a very high degree." Zahir 17:48, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Don't feel old, just remember that most of us are not native english speakers. And in my case, I live in australia so.....--Marc Pasquin 18:27, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Sorry, it took me a while to react on this one. The logo itself is really cool, but there's one problem: the tryzub ("trident") is Ukraine's national symbol. *Here*, in Soviet times, it was absolutely forbidden as a symbol of Ukrainian nationalism. Therefore, it would seem a little odd to me if the SLOB, which essentially promotes the idea of Ukraine as part of the Great-Russian empire and Ukrainian as some Russian dialect, would use it.

But I've changed my mind about that. Why? Because Ukraine was already an independent state when the SLOB came to power (sometime in the late 1930s). That's a significant difference with *here*: nominally, Ukraine remained an independent state. And I suppose the SLOB would not have faught the Ukrainian language to such an extent, but rather have advocated it as a part of the Greater Brotherhood Of All Slavs. They could actually have used the tryzub as a symbol of Ukrainian statehood, and even nationalism.

So yes, let's have this as a SLOB logo. And, in addition, let's also modify Ukraine's SNOR flag. There's no real need anymore to change the colours to black instead of blue, as I originally proposed. They would simply have done the same what happened also in other Russian satellite states: they put their logo on the national flag. So how about this:

After the fall of the SLOB, the new ruler would simply have reverted to the prewar flag, which essentially means removing the eagle and moving the tryzub to the canton. Comments? --IJzeren Jan 05:51, 27 November 2005 (PST)

The heraldractic conservative part of me flinches a bit at gold on gold, but other than that all you've said makes plenty of sense. Zahir 07:52, 27 November 2005 (PST)

Zahir makes a good point. Just a few ideas:

1 - just an echo of Soviet Ukraine

2 - simplest way to prevent gold on gold (and historicaly used *here*)

3 - slightly changed proportion

4 - same without the white artifacts if you prefer it

5 - blue border, what about this one a modern Ukraine, as symbol of peaceful transfer of power?

6 - a few ukrainian far-right parties *here* used a black band

7 - NSDAP type flag

8 - More in spirit of true Ukranian SNORism flag
from Zibster, I donno, just round sort of signifies separatism not just following.

9 - Zahir's reworking of Zibster's idea, maybe more in line with SNOR's aesthetics?

10 - Zahir's slight suggestion--a larger falcon and cross,
Z: I like that one, the most.

11 - This one strictly party flag for SLOB.

12 - Marc's new-new-new proposal and ripoff of the other ones, this could work if initial color of the SNOR cross was red.

13 - Another possibility for a party flag for SLOB, could be, how about to make the wreath red and cross yellow?

--Marc Pasquin 15:57, 27 November 2005 (PST)

For what its worth, I like #1 or #3. Zahir 16:08, 27 November 2005 (PST)

Hmm, I like #2, #3 and #4. My problem with #1 and #6 is that there's too much black, and I don't really like #5 and #7 either. So, taking into account the gold-on-gold argument, it should either be #2 or #3. Well, hard to make a choice between those two. #3 in a way is an echo of Soviet Ukraine, which gives it a nice touch, while #2 is historically the better choice.

Hmm, difficult. Perhaps #3 after all.

There's one thing: the black tryzub looks sort of odd to me. Would it be an option to have a black eagle and a golden tryzub? What do you think? --IJzeren Jan 06:45, 28 November 2005 (PST)

Wouldn't be a problem. The reason I made him Gold was both for historical reasons (a few old ukranian flags were gold on plain blue including a gold eagle one in 1410) and visibility. The second is not too important if the blue is pale enough and the first one can be ignored if their was a "revolutionary" element to SLOB (in the same way as the Nazi were "revolutionaries").--Marc Pasquin 14:56, 28 November 2005 (PST)

Would it be much work for you to try #3 and #4 with a lighter shade of blue, a black eagle and a golden tryzub? --IJzeren Jan 05:10, 29 November 2005 (PST)

Hi guys, well I was in ignorant bliss up until posting at Lla Dafern on the Ukraine. First as I person who born lived for long time there, I tell u, oh boy, to show "Zhovto-Blakitniy" (Yellow-Blue) flag to Russian (FYI: they call 'em Muscovites), its like red to a bull. Since both histories somewhat similar, I assume the attitudes similar. Let say for instance, the Soviet times "here," the peasants hated everything Russian, while intelligencia, not only loved but embraced the Russian culture above any local! So here with all do respect to Marc’s naivete speculation of Tryzub, there would not be allowed on Russian backed SLOB government. It is just offensive if somebody, “here,” installed a Swastika on an Israeli banner. Actually, even my initial proposal somewhat wrong, since in the eyes of SLOB, the Ukraine ceased to exist, and new (old) Malorussia was born. So, I would go even farther, I need to know the colors of Russian Imperial Flag during time of SNOR. Look, unlike SNORist Otenia or Bulgaria, the Ukraine lost its originality, even in this universe due to the predominant Russian populated Eastern, Central and South regions. Do you people even know, that “here” modern Ukraine during the Presidential election was on a brink of civil war, and only agreement of Yanukovich, and being a parliamentary republic saved from conflict? Besides, in “that” Ukraine even easier for Russians, since the ZUNR became a part of Double Crown Republic, and no “West Ukraine” opposition existed to the Russified majority. Therefore, I try even to rework my newly proposed flag more in tone with Russian Imperial.

Thank you, User:Lordziba, April 3rd., 2006.

The colours of Russia in the period in question were black-gold-white. But honestly, I don't think Malorussia's flag should be an exact copy of the Russian flag. Like I said, I'm aware of the effect of zhovto-blatitny and the tryzub on Russian nationalists. But the situation in IB ís a bit different: when the SLOB came to power, Ukrainian had been existing as an independent state for a few decades already. So these symbols weren't merely symbols of some separatist national group anymore; they were the symbols of a legitimate, independent state, recognised by the whole world except perhaps Russia.

Also worth to keep in mind is this: you are right in that Ukraine lost its originality. But unlike *here*'s Ukrainian SSR, Malorussia (despite its name) was still an independent state, much like Czechoslovakia or Bulgaria *here*. And that's why I don't think the flag ought to be based too directly on the Russian imperial flag, or that the Ukrainian eagle should be the same as the Russian eagle.

I don't really have a preference for either of the two flags you made: the white-blue-red one or the white-black-red one. Why did you change the blue to black in the first place? In any case, I like the new version. Just wondering about one thing: would it be too strange to have the same flag, but with a golden eagle instead of a white one? As for David's version with a different eagle: not bad, but I think I prefer the rounded one after all.

What remains to be decided is when this new flag was implemented. This would be my take: the yellow-and-blue flag was used not only by the UNR, but also by the "Ukrainian State" (1937-1944), as the latter was, albeit pro-Russian, still a distinctly Ukrainian state and not just some Russian satellite. Also, I don't think this state would have changed its flag so quickly anyway. Ziba's flag would IMO have been adopted in 1947, along with the name change from Ukraine to Malorussia.

Perhaps Marc's flag (the one with the eagle ánd the tryzub) could have been adopted in 1989, as some kind of means for the regime to keep itself in power while making a few compromises to the opposition. Perhaps a more nationalist faction in the party had taken over by then.

As for the civil war you're referring to: yes, I'm aware of that. Did you know that even Hrushevsky already anticipated the emergence of two Ukrainian nations instead of one? All in all, there are lots of parallels between the situations of the Ukrainians and the Serbs/Croatians (not in the least, because of the two religions). —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 00:25, 4 April 2006 (PDT)

I have sent another proposal. Assuming that the trident and the colour yellow would have been too "autonomist", they could have chosen something like this. As Jan suggested, after the fall of SNOR the ex-SLOB would have tried to hold on to power by re-orienting their party as one which had been a nationalistic one all along.

As part of their image campaign, they would have reintroduced pre-slob symbols (yellow and the trident) but maintaining some of the previous symbolism (so as not to alienate the quickly eroding harcore members). The flag would have been short lived and after the first post snorist election, they would have adopted the flag we have on the page.

One thing in the golden eagle flag's favour though is that the use of blatantly ukrainian symbol would have been a ploy to try and project an image of independence vis-a-vis russia. The fact that ukraine was not simply absorbed means that Russia wanted, at the very least, to maintain the illusion of independance. Using those symbol then allow Russia firstly to say: "see, they are independent, why else would they use those symbols". Secondly (and more insidiously) by having pro-russian accaparating those symbols, they take away their power and prevent the resistance from using them (Vichy France use of the republican symbols forced the Free French Forces to adopt new ones).

Either way, I'll let other more knowledgeable decided what to do. --Marc Pasquin 17:30, 4 April 2006 (PDT)

Hi, guys, what a debate. First, I want to say deep thanks to Marc for helping me out in other details. Hm, from what to start. Ok, bird, it is not an eagle, in the Ukraine, unlike Russia and one of my motivations why “round” not “quadratic,” it is a falcon or Sokil. Second let me explain something, maybe, I do not get something, for instance, I was vigorously against Marc of type of insignias for SNORist 1970's troops, but after some explanation I get the concept. However, still some positions on the SLOBist flag I want to remain strong. Let me explain, the colors I chouse initially, even accidently similar “former here” UkSSR, are traditional colors of the Slobodskaya Ukraina, or “Re-settled Ukraine” this universe, which was long established under supervision and protection (!) of the Moscow Tsar (starting Ivan the Terrible), and they are Blue and Red, and were like 50/50 on the banner, above blue, below red. Besides I forgot that the SNORist flag changed to White-Black-Gold, instead of usual tri color. I would even proposed more radical, just party flag – Golden Sokil with SNOR cross over black and yellow fields. Now, the mistake, in my understanding, IJzeren Jan, making, no despite some radicalism, you cannot treat Ukraine, especially “there” like Czechoslovakia or Bulgaria “here”, since it even more integrated with Russia. View the Ukraine, no Malorussia, as yet another republic akin to Kalmikia (btw, the same goes for Belorussia, if we ever going to see that one). So, in theory, not be a puppet to the end, I decided to change yellow to red, as sign of the Eastern Ukranian Russian protection origin, while the falcon is in white as a symbol of purity or the same could be interpreted as SNORist white eagle, and black as the Ukranian SLOBist radicalism. I hope I explained my white Falcon, Black field, and Red bottom.

Ziba, User:Lordziba, April 4th., 2006.

To Ziba: again, don't let the name Malorussia fool you. It was not part of the Russian Empire; it was - formally - an independent state, albeit a satellite state without much real power over its own affairs. You compare it to Kalmykia, but honestly, that's not how it was. *Here*, Kalmykia was an ASSR, while Ukraine was an SSR, and both were part of the Soviet Union. *There*, Russia didn't have anything like republics (they were of later date), and when you look at the status, it was indeed a separate country (like Bulgaria or Poland).

That aside, I also like #11 (David's version with a slightly bigger bird) best. Marc's version is nice, but indeed a little too radical. #12 is also very nice as a party flag. But, let's just cut this short and settle for #11.

I have a feeling that the current flag (the yellow-and-blue one with tryzub and bird) could still have played a part in 1989. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 02:23, 5 April 2006 (PDT)

Based on the other designs, here's an anti-aliased one (up there) with the head remade to look more like a falcon.

By the way, there is no special reason why the cross on the ukranian flag should be golden. In the case of SNOR, the logo was simply made in livery colours. Because of that, I suggest the cross be red thus reducing the number of colours to the magic number of three (statisticaly, the highest number of colours on the average national flag).

If you want to use a golden band on the party flag, I'd recommend making it still a bit more different then the national one. Most party flag for example have writting on it (since they are seen less often then the national one, you want to make sure they know what it is). Keeping the logo, you can make it more prestigious with a motto ("for the glory and renewal of the malorussian people !" or something) and a garland. Example included. --Marc Pasquin 19:02, 5 April 2006 (PDT)

I quite like #12 (state flag) and #13 (party flag). --Sikulu 06:43, 6 April 2006 (PDT)

Completely agreed. Would it perhaps be possible to follow David's example and have a slightly bigger falcon on #12? I like the red cross!

As for the party flag, would it be possible to have another version with the text СЛАБ instead of СЛОБ? I completely overlooked that before, but since Ukraine became Malorussia under its wings, and Russian became the one and only official language of the country, I suppose the party itself would rather use its Russian than its Ukrainian name. The Russian word "слабый", BTW, means "weak"! :) —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 12:01, 6 April 2006 (PDT)

Since this flag back and forth reminds, we need to change the Bulgaria flag, because their symbol is a lion, but about that later and another time. I like Marc's SLOB flag with cirtain altrations in the color. But, did we not agree that official SLOBist Malorossian flag going to be #10? Moreover, why not call just SB? And I was thinking, off topic, the Gaidamaki could be version of the Oprichniks in the SLOB Ukraine?

PS. For IJzeren Jan, still, with all respects, I do not think, that 30 years of free-Russia control can white-wash centuries of onbsorbtion or integration. In the "here" Ukraine, the only reason why Ukraine not like Belorussia [mostly pro-Russian puppet], only because the Austrian traditions of the Western part, thus very different from Bulgaria, or Serbia, Slovakia.

Ziba, User:Lordziba, April 6th., 2006.

Well, the events during the Civil War show most clearly that the will for independence was there, along with a rather strong national feeling. Also, do not forget that the situation of a relatively underdeveloped East Ukraine and a relatively better developed West Ukraine was not that old either; it goes back to the 1850s, IIRC, and before that, the situation was rather the opposite. Besides, not all of what is Ukraine in IB was always under Russian rule; we still have East Volhynia, Pravoberezhna Ukrayina and the like. And there's another thing: because Ukraine was independent in the Interwar period (and to some degree, even after GW2), there wasn't the same amount of forceful russification, nor the same amount of immigration from Russia. The percentage of Russian in Ukraine is definitely smaller than *here*! But of course, for the rest you are right: there is definitely something of a Belarussian situation going on there.

As for the flags, I think #12 and #13 are just perfect! Thanks, all! —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 09:45, 7 April 2006 (PDT)

At last we seems to be done with the flag! Now, I notice that some names during Malorussian rule one name, sounded Ukranian, Serhij Bubko. He suppouse to be Sergey Bubko akin to Russian grammar not Ukranian, the others of this period fine, since their names are same sounding in both languages.

Ziba, User:Lordziba, April 7th., 2006.

You're of course right about that. Bubko in those days was probably mostly known under the name "Sergej". But you know how Russian deals with Ukrainian names: they simply treat them as Russian names. Hence, in Russian you get Michail Gruševskij, Pavel Skoropadskij, Vladimir Vinničenko etc. In this list, I've elected to use the Ukrainian version of the names, even if Ukrainians was pretty much taboo in certain eras, and so I got to Serhij Bubko, and Kyrylenko instead of Kirilenko. As for Mr. Bubko, he is pretty much IB's equivalent of Petro Shelest. He surely did some efforts to restore the Ukrainian language in its old glory! —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 23:56, 7 April 2006 (PDT)