File talk:Royal arms scotland.jpg

Nice-looking COA. However, I can't really justify the English lions passant guardant in the Scots COA. Even *here*, the Queen has a separate COA in her role as Queen of Scotland. It's pretty similar to the regular one, with the Scottish and English quarters reversed so Scotland is 1st & 4th and England is in the second. The crest and supporters are Scottish, too.
In IB, the two nations are more, not less, separate. Somehow the English lions look wrong. To my mind, what is more likely, if you want to acknowledge England at all, is the Scottish lion rampant bearing a small inescutcheon of England on its breast. JMHO, mind. Geoff

I understand all that. It does seem to me that the union of the Stewart and Yorkist dynasties would be conveyed in the COA of both kingdoms. On the other hand, I was hoping to show something different, i.e. a different direction taken in heraldric design which would help convey how history played out itself differently.

Along those same lines, I rather presume that Henry VII of England and Scotland was probably the one who dropped claim to the French throne, hence the removal of the quartering of french arms from the English COA (in our history this happened during the reign of George III).

But I'm eager to hear anyone else's opinion. Zahir 22:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that for Continental heraldry, the inescucheon would be for the sovereign's family and the main shield for the country over which they reign. English heraldry always seemed more informal and free-flowing to me, although apparently Scottish heraldry has a lot of complex and logical rules that I've never read about. Diana and her immediate ancestors' personal tastes would no doubt shape the arms and the way they look. In these modern times, so would the wishes of the Scots themselves. Benkarnell 00:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

possible alternate designs for scottish royal arms

Just for fun, I did a few other basic designs for a possible royal arms of Scotland. Keep in mind, as Queen of England as well Diana I would have another set of arms for that realm. In A, B, and C my assumption was that technically the Scottish monarch has not renounced claims to the French throne, although the English monarch has--the kind of overcomplicated technicality that helps make IB such an interesting place! Zahir 15:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Personnaly, I would think that the *monarch*'s COA would either be quartered scotland and england (scotland first) or simply scotland. Another idea, I would suggest since this is the monarch's COA to have the scottish royal banner (see http://ib.frath.net/w/Image:Fk-flag-chart.png) flying from the poles instead of what is *there* the state flag.

As for the pretension to the french throne, since it is a personnal (i.e. the king) rather then a state issue, I would assume that that the pretence would be extinguished at the same time for both crown since it is, in effect, based on the same presumption. --Marc Pasquin 13:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

And I forgot to add, the lion in the crest should be sejant affronte holding a scepter and sword.--Marc Pasquin 15:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that because the Scottish and English thrones were united through a different route and at an earlier time, with so much of the royal history in the meantime has proven so different, then the details of heraldry would likewise be different. If the arms of the Scottish monarch in IB are identical to Queen Elizabeth II's arms as Scottish monarch, then there is no point in even mentioning them really. And my own sense of history linked with heraldric design (which is often the result of specific issues and specific individuals rather than rigid rules) makes me think the arms would be indeed noticeably different. Zahir 16:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can make changes to it (like adding the royal banner like I suggested) but I don't think we should change what is distinctive (like the crest) on a whim. as for the shield itself, maybe something like the royal cypher in an inescutcheon on a quartered field of scotland and england would do the trick.--Marc Pasquin 23:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

new version

Like this? Zahir 05:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

yes, maybe just make the cypher the same as on the banner (the letters intertwined). Not sure about the crown (although I noticed you used the scottish one) since you would already have one outside the shield. how about putting the cypher inside a garland wreath (like this: http://www.fotw.net/flags/ca-queen.html but yellow).--Marc Pasquin 13:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

newer version

How about this, then? Zahir 18:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks nice, I'd still recommend you intertwined the letter to fit with the cypher already established and get rid of the crown which is not realy needed.--Marc Pasquin 18:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The actual style of the cypher is designed by the College of Arms, meeting the approval of the monarch--whose tastes in this case match my own. I wanted the crown to help differentiate between the two, because the English cypher will include the crown of Edward the Confessor (as does Queen Elizabeth II's *here* ). Zahir 21:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing is about the cypher, its already been designed years ago so why change it now ? --Marc Pasquin 01:02, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Where? When? By whom? Zahir 03:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

On the royal banners of england and scotland, a few years ago, by me. --Marc Pasquin 03:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Where are they? I've never seen them. I was basing my general design on the ones used by Elizabeth II here. Zahir 03:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

you can see them on FOIB:http://www.geocities.com/flagsofillbethisad/en.html under royal banner and http://www.geocities.com/flagsofillbethisad/sc.html. In the meantime, here's a proposal of what it might look like--Marc Pasquin 04:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)