Talk:Prusi

Jan and others may check the page for possible updates. The flag is only a proposal. Black/white East Prussian flag and green/white/red Lithuania Minor flag are real (and the coloring should probably remain unchanged), blue/green Baltic Prussian flag and white/red Masurian flags invented by me (if somebody knows of real flags used by these people you can give me links) with Masurian colors reminding those of Veneda and teh Baltic Prussian colors could have been invented in 18th-19th centuries (by the time real world's Baltic Prussians were already extinct) and represent land and sea. These colors may change. The design of the flag itself may also be different (a saltire for example or such) but it should include the colors for different ethnicities probably. Abdul-aziz 02:52, 23 August 2007 (PDT)

Looks very good, Augustinas. I like the flag! And frankly, I wouldn't mind using *here*'s flag of Poland as *there*'s flag of Mazowia. That would, at least, explain a lot. At some later point (when I can use my own computer), I'll add some political info about the province of Prusi. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 08:09, 23 August 2007 (PDT)

Thank you. Regarding the white/red flag it is proposed here trhat it would be flag of the Masurians rather than Mazowia. Of course, it can be a flag of Mazowia as well or the flag of Mazowia maybe similar with red color on top and white stripe bellow it or the Masurian flag might be different, but then the Masurian canton of Prusi flag would need a change as well - unless, of course, Mazowian colors would be used there for some reason. Abdul-aziz 14:41, 23 August 2007 (PDT)

I would rather use the white-red flag for Kaszubians (Przemarzian Slavs), as there are quite a few of them there. Jan II. 23:30, 23 August 2007 (PDT)

Is there any reason why the Kashubians shouldn't have the same black-and-yellow flag they have *here*? Especially considering that (also *here*) both Mazovia and Mazuria have red-and-white flags!

just because Kaszubians *there* are the only Slavs around and red'n'white flag was considered Slavic, mostly in combination with blue. no other reason. Jan II. 11:12, 26 August 2007 (PDT)

I haven't given much thought yet to provincial flags in Veneda/the RTC. Sure, one possibility would be importing them wholesale from *here*, but apart from the fact that they would need to be redone, I also feel it would be like missing an opportunity, something I would probably come to regret later. The same would be the case if I or someone else would start making proposals for all 14 Venedic provincial flags... It's something we should be discovering slowly, in due time, one by one.

Frankly, I doubt whether the Mazurians have any flag at all. There's not really a territorial entity called "Mazuria", it's more like a geographical concept. And although the Mazurians definitely have their own dialect, I'm not sure whether they are distinct enough to have their own ethnic flag. In other words, I can imagine that both the Mazurians and the province of Mazowia are using one and the same flag. If so, it could be the Polish white-and-red flag. That would make even more sense given the fact that *here*'s Mazowia flag is *there*'s Veneda flag! In case we need to make a distinction anyway, it may be a COA placed in the middle. But since Augustinas' flag does not include COAs, there's not much point in elaborating on that. As far as I'm concerned, his proposal for a Prussian flag can stay unchanged. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 02:29, 24 August 2007 (PDT)

The flag white/red I meant would have been the flag of Veneds living in East Prussia (Masurians, similarly to real world's Poles that lived in East Prussia). Lithuania Minor was not a single entity anytime in history also, but the Lithuanians of East Prussia had their flag since 17th century and anthem since 19th century, so I thought something similar might be with Veneds of East Prussia (the main difference would be religion (Protestantism), culture and history rather than dialect). But you are right, they could have used the same or similar flag as Mazovia. Kashubians may use the same colors as in the real world I believe. Abdul-aziz 03:19, 24 August 2007 (PDT)

The name Prussia

I've been wondering a bit about the name Prussia... Would it perhaps be an idea if "Prusi" was only what we usually call a "conventional short name" here in the wiki, while the long name would be more appropriate? I've been thinking a bit about this. I came up with the name "Prusi" for this province before we had made most discoveries about the HRE, especially the existence of a Prussian state. Perhaps I was a bit too quick with assigning it. In any case, I'm not sure how likely it is that there is both a state called "Prusi" in Wenedyk and a province.

A parallel might be Przemarz, which exists both as a state (Preymeren) and a province. In this case the Veneds simply call the state "Western Premaria". But in the case of Prussia that's obviously not going to work.

In *here*'s Poland, the province is called "Warmia-Mazuria", or in German: "Ermland-Masurien". Of course, it does not include the Kaliningrad region. So what I'm wondering about: would it perhaps be an idea if the official name of the province was: "Prusi-Warmia-Mazuria" (Prowięcza Pruso-Warmińko-Mazurka)? Or "Warmia-Mazuria-Prusi", if you like? —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 06:01, 26 August 2007 (PDT)

I kind of like "Warmia-Marzuria-Prusi". Seth 17:48, 26 August 2007

Some Masurians may have wanted such name and the post-war Venedic government may have chosen to adopt it - you know the political situation in post-war Veneda better than me. Such name probably would have drawn Lithuanian (and maybe also German to a lesser extent) protests as it would imply that the land belongs to Prussians (Baltic and German(?)) and Masurians (Veneds), not mentioning Lithuania Minor. Prusi may also remain the official name, with "Prussia Province" and "Kingdom of Prussia" being used to distinguish the two - in the real world, there are several sub-national entities called "Amazonas" in different countries and we already have two Galicias in IB. Prusi also seems to be more neutral, the word being dear both to Baltic Prussians and Germans. "Ducal Prussia", "East Prussia" are other options but they also have their drawbacks (the first one not representing the modern situation and the second one being perhaps too German, associating the word "Prussia" with Germans rather than Baltic Prussians). A neutral "Northern Province" maybe another option. In Lithuanian language the Prusi province would be called "Prūsa" while Prussia, HRE - "Prūsija" (the term "Prūsa" name is sometimes used in the real-world Lithuanian language to refer to the lands of Baltic Prussians). Abdul-aziz 15:11, 26 August 2007 (PDT)

Well, don't forget that Prussia province did not become part of Veneda because it wanted so very much be part of it. It's simply a matter of annexing territory of a defeated enemy. Therefore, I agree neither "Ducal Prussia" nor "East Prussia" would be good solutions. "Northern Province" doesn't really give me a good feeling either. But you gave a an idea: perhaps Wenedyk could do something similar to Lithuanian in this case? "Prusi" literally means: "Prussians". They might be using "Prusja" for the Kingdom, for example. Or the other way round.

Or, we might just keep the name "Prusi" for both the state and the province. But somehow that doesn't feel right. If both had been provinces (one of the HRE, one of the RTC) it would have been a different thing. But now? There are two parallels in the real world I can think of. Belgium has a province called "Luxemburg", and there is the case of Macedonia.

On the other hand, I really feel tempted to add something to the name "Prusi". If the Lithuanians would feel offended by adding "Mazuria" to the name, wouldn't they feel even more offended by the name "Northern Province"? Besides, wasn't Lithuania a bit in an underdog position, back in 1949?

Still need to think about this a little! —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 03:34, 27 August 2007 (PDT)

You are right that Veneda was the one to decide upon the name and therefore what name was chosen probably depends on the political situation in early post-war Veneda, which is something you know better than me. Some politicians (for example, nationalists, Masurians, etc.) would have probably supported naming the province Masuria or Prusi-Warmia-Masuria while the ones more concerned about the German and/or Lithuanian opinions (due to internal stability or foreign relations) may have had other suggestions. Anyways it's not like Lithuanian or German discontent over this could have led to anything as serious as the breakup of RTC. Basically as I see it most Germans would have probably preffered name East Prussia or Prussia and would have seen any change of the name as diluting the Germanity/authenticity of the province (they would claim that Prussia was multiethnic and Masurians, Lietuvininks are also Prussians); many Masurians (non-Germanised) might have wanted adding of name Masuria, Baltic Prussians would also probably wanted the province to be called just Prussia (because before German conquests they inhabitted large tracts of the province), many Lithuanians (non-Germanised ones) may have wanted their area to become part of Lithuania or at least to be treated as equals with Veneds, Germans and Baltic Prussians. The name "Northern Province" indeed would have also caused German, Baltic Prussian, to a lesser extent Lithuanian discontent, although it could have been seen by the central government to be in accordance with the "no ethnicity dominates" policy (if such policy was upheld at the time). So everything depended on the Venedic government of the time after all. Therefore, you should decide. Abdul-aziz 14:16, 27 August 2007 (PDT)