Talk:Macedonian people

Ideas?

I'm not trying to make a new country here (I'm not trying to impede on the Balkans), just wanting to add a bit more flavor. Macedonia clearly existed *there* in at least two incarnations (as compared to the 3-4 *here*), they being the one of Alexander and that of the political entinty within the Roman Empire. My idea for Macedonia *there* is that at about the same time as the Jewish Diaspora (if there was one *there*), Macedonia also rises up, resulting in a similiar diaspora, resulting in Italian Macedonians, Greek Macedonians, and even Venedic Macedonians, but MAcedonians none-the-less. When the Diaspora occurs, however, the majority just "move next door" to Greece, with whom they have a long history with. This creates the Macedonian language (or the most spoken dialect) more Greek. They, like the Jewish population *here*, have no homeland really for hundreds of years. Then, under the Danubian Confederation, they are given a nominal homland in what would come to be the "Bulgarian Panhandle," and are a semi-autonomous entity. They remain loyal to the state for years, but during the disbandment of the Confederation, perhaps they claim independence, but, like several entities *here*, are not recognized. Bulgaria refuses to recognize them as an actual group, calling them "Western Bulgarians." A small resistance force grows, but is only able to wage a small and mostly ineffective terrorist war on Bulgaria, resulting in an even larger crackdown on the Macedonians. They call on the Greeks for help, who simply funnel weapons and money to them but not much else. There is the occaisonal protest and and even rarer shooting/shoot out, but for the most part, the Macedonians have become lethargic in their claims for a free homeland, though they wouldn't mind it... Seth 1 June 2008

Well, the Macedonians of today are _not_ the Macedonians of Alexander. They're Slavs... I think. So you're talking about Ancient Macedonian surviving. Interesting. It would make a fun conlang... if I knew how to conlang. Benkarnell 20:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this proposal, Seth. However, I'm having a few reservations here.

1. If it's true, like you say, that in the fourth century a couple of thousands of Macedonians were dispersed by the Romans, then there is no way they could have preserved their language in any way. If we take Veneda as an example, at the time is was a rather scarcely populated area, inhabited by some Germanic peoples, Celts, and a small Roman population. Because of their somewhat priviledged position, it was the language of the Romans that became predominant. Then, around 600 IIRC, the Slavs came, the ancestors of *here*'s Poles. I've been assuming their numbers were the same, but instead of stumbling on those Germans and Celts only, they stumbled upon a slightly larger Romance-speaking population. Just strong enough to give birth to Wenedyk instead of Polish. Later, the whole bunch spread even further over the area. So, how would a small group of Macedonians manage to stay out of all that? First, they would have been romanised, just like the Celts. Subsequently, they would have been slavicised. If anything, there might be some traces of the Macedonian language in a few placenames and/or words, but that's about it. For the rest, they would have been completely assimilated long, long ago, just like other ethnic groups of much greater size have. I'm sure the same would be the case in other parts of the world, too. The only possibility I can see for the Macedonian language to survive anywhere else than in Macedonia itself, would be in some completely isolated place, on an island or in the mountains or something.
2. Secondly, even if the Macedonians somehow managed to preserve their language and culture of the millenia, why on Earth would they leave everything to move to some unknown new homeland? That's like proposing a Kemrese person to "return" to Rome, because that's where his roots lie! Even if they'd moved to Veneda etc. in 1800 instead of 380, they would feel a much stronger allegiance to their new countries than to Macedonia. Most of them are probably married to non-Macedonian people, have children who haven't the faintest idea what Macedonia is, they have well-paid jobs, etc. Why would they give up everything and move to an unknown, poor Balkan country?
3. Thirdly, even if some people of Macedonian descent go back to Macedonia, there can't have been more than a couple of hundreds of them. Hardly enough to build a kingdom! Besides, they didn't arrive in a vacuum, right? At this time, Macedonia's population consisted mostly of Slavs. Probably about the same as *here*'s Macedonians, probably called "Western Bulgarians" by Bulgaria. And there is the small Slavo-Greek minority Ferko referred to. Of course, it's quite possible that this Slavo-Greek minority is exactly what is left of the Ancient Macedonians.

In other words, I'm sure some leftovers of the Ancient Macedonians may have survived in Macedonia, on both sides of the Greek-Bulgarian border. At least on the Bulgarian side, they must have been heavily slavicised, although their language may still be a Hellenic one. I can't imagine them as a really large group, otherwise they would have had their own republic within the CSDS. I wouldn't exclude separatist tendencies among them, though. It is, however, important to realise that Bulgaria could not invade the territory, because it was already part of Bulgaria. On the other hand, it is possible that they didn't like to be part of an independent Bulgaria and started to demand independence immediately after Bulgaria's secession in 1988. —IJzeren Jan ^Uszkiełtu? 09:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to say I agree with Jan here.

Regarding my Slavo-Greek people, I did intend at the time of creation for them to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians. However, they are too small of a community and their villages are too dispersed amongst Slavic villages to really be a cohesive "national entity". The CSDS didn't even bother to standardise an orthography for them, probably figuring that they'll be completely assimilated before long.

The Slavic "Macedonians", as I've mentioned elsewhere, aren't even a question *there* - they never had a 'state' created for them in the CSDS (whereas *here*, the Macedonian state was a construct of Yugoslavia). During the days of the Slavonic Union/Danubian Confederation they were officially considered "Southern Serbs" (though they considered themselves Bulgarian); after the establishment of the CSDS the territory was transferred from Serbia to Bulgaria. So again, Bulgaria couldn't have invaded its own territory!

So short form, I very, very much doubt there is any irridentist sentiment in western Bulgaria (at least, nothing anything more significant - or even as strong as - Albertan or British Columbian separatist sentiment *here*). The vastest majority of the populace in the region are perfectly content being citizens of Bulgaria. Flipside, though, the Greeks *did* use the Slavo-Greek Macedonians as their excuse for invading Bulgaria in 1988, though in reality that was probably just a superficiality, and the real intention was just an attempted land grab. Dalmatinac 06:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)