Talk:Junker

Is everything else acceptably taken care of, then? meaning, is everything else acceptable to QSS? BoArthur

I'm not sure about the QSSness of your fourth paragraph. Does Germany have political parties in the same sense as *here's* Germany? Could it be that instead of parties, the German Reichstag *there* is still divided up among the imperial estates? I would think so. Germany would not be the "Holy Roman Empire" without the imperial estates as an institution. So I think that the interests of the junkers would have been served by the secular bench of the Council of Princes. I don't think political parties as we know it in *here's* Germany exists. Which reminds me, since there are communist states in Germany, the proletariats' interests could be represented by the Council of Imperial Cities, which is no doubt much more powerful today than it was *here*. (See here for more on how the HRE was structured and governed). Boreanesia 03:08, 12 Jun 2005 (PDT)

I don't know, Kristian. Your suggestion by all means make a lot of sense, but I can't escape the impression that such a Germany would essentially be stuck in the 18th century! *Here*, the HRE was dissolved in 1806 by Napoleon. *There*'s Napo was even stronger than that, so would he have left it intact, along with all its ancient institutions? And even if he would have, the HRE would pretty much have modernised in the meantime. Everywhere in Europe, the first political parties in the modern sense of the word emerged in the late 19th century. I think the HRE can be no exception to that. If those parties existed on a pan-German level, I don't know. I suppose not, because the HRE is still not much of a real state by then. So I imagine political parties to have emerged on the level of the statelets. In other words: no Socialist Party of Germany, but a Socialist Party of Prussia, etc. With the rise of Prussia, I can imagine that parties in other states decided to align themselves with their Prussian counterparts. All in all, the Reichtstag would consist of representatives of the state(let)s, and it would depend from state(let) to state(let) if there is a subdivision according to parties or not. In other words: pretty much like the European Parliament *here* and *now*. --IJzeren Jan 06:11, 12 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Regarding Napoleon: We know that Napoleon's intentions *there* was the recreation of the Roman Empire. So I think the ancient institutions of the HRE would have been left pretty much intact.

Regarding political parties: Let's consider the compatability of political parties in the HRE for a moment. Let's also consider Sweden and Finland where the estates did not dissolved until long after the 1848 revolutions -- they were dissolved in Sweden in 1866 and in Finland as late as 1905. Politically, the estates in Sweden were divided between the "Hats" (conservatives) and the "Caps" (liberals). But these weren't really parties per se, but more like factions. I think it would be the same in the HRE since there would not be a need for further political distinctions. The political interests of the various political parties that exists *here* would have been served by the liberal and conservative factions of each estate. To show what I mean, I have prepared a table below that sketches roughly what political party from *here's* Germany each faction would correspond to:

	Liberal faction	Conservative faction
Princely Estates	Free Democratic Party (FDP)	National Socialists (NSDAP)
Clerical Estates	Christian Democratic Union (CDU)	Christian Social Union (CSU)
Imperial Free City Estates	Social Unity Party (SED)	Free Democratic Party (FDP)

Boreanesia 16:39, 12 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Okay, I can see what you're getting at. Indeed, a system like this doesn't exactly enhance the formation of political parties. We had a vaguely similar thing in the Netherlands, which especially favoured the position of the reactionary Conservatives, a political movement that disappeared already in the 19th century. BTW, I take it this all this has nothing in common with census, right?

Well, if you say that Napoleon left the system intact for the reasons you mention, I'll buy it. That the system survived until the late 19th or the early 20th century is something I can buy too. But I had the impression we are talking about *now*. As you wrote yourself at the beginning of this thread: "Does Germany have political parties in the same sense as *here's* Germany? Could it be that instead of parties, the German Reichstag *there* is still divided up among the imperial estates? I would think so." Honestly, I can't imagine a system like that to be still in existence. Because the truth of the matter is: if you ask me, it's quite undemocratic. I'm sure there must have been some movement towards modernisation of the system in the late 19th century, at latest. Okay, perhaps Prussian conservatism succeeded in whatever way to maintain the status quo until GW2, which is very late already. But after the fall of Prussia, I'm quite positive the Allies made a genuine effort to turn the German successor statelets into fairly modernised states with a normal parliamentary system.

--IJzeren Jan 09:12, 13 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Regarding political parties: I'll concede that I haven't been clear on whether I meant Germany now or Germany then. I meant Germany in the past, as I was refering to Dan's fourth paragraph. Political parties would certainly have developed in the 20th century -- but not earlier, IMO.

Regarding democratization: I think the system can indeed be democratized but still be left somewhat intact at the same time -- just as it has in the UK *here*. I have a long standing project -- mostly in my head rather than on paper -- about how *here's* Swedish 18th century parliament, the Riksdag of the Estates, could have been democraticized and applied to *there's* SR. My idea is to preserve the four traditional Nordic estates (the nobility, the clergy, the burghers, and the peasantry), let the members of the burgher and peasant councils be elected by the people from urban and rural municipalities respectively, and give them far more power than the noble and clerical councils. So as in the UK's House of Lords, the noble and clerical councils are not elected, however, like the UK's House of Commons, the burgher and the peasant councils are. Like the UK's House of Lords, the power of the noble and clerical councils are severely curtailed by statute and by practice, and so the burgher and peasant councils are far more powerful than their non-elected counterparts. I think a similar system could have evolved in Germany.

Boreanesia 11:50, 13 Jun 2005 (PDT)

Okay then, this article has been on the proposal list long enough. I'll modify it according to Kristian's suggestion: that the interests of the Junkers were served by the secular bench of the Council of Princes. Is that okay? --IJzeren Jan 02:14, 14 November 2005 (PST)