Talk:John Robert O'Kinneide

Naming

Could I suggest tweaking his name a bit? He wouldn't be called John Robert Kennedy *there*, but John Robert Ó Cinnéide. Though it's not as important, he could be called Eoin Roibeard Ó Cinnéide *there* if his parents decided to use the Gaeilg forms. --Kgaughan 08:49, 5 January 2006 (PST)

I personally have no objection to this, but since the Kennedies have been established prior to this, the question must be addressed to those senior to me in IB. Bo? Padriac? Nik? Andrew? Anyone? Zahir 09:01, 5 January 2006 (PST)

When it comes to matters of Irish history, I'm the person to talk to. The reason why the name Ó Cinnéide would be used rather than Kennedy is that *there* there was no opportunity for the anglicisation to occur: it was Kemr, not England that colonised Ireland, and no analogue of the anglicisation of names and placenames happened *there*. That was established fact on Ireland way back even before I joined in.

Now, the matter for firstnames is different: if they're living in a predominantly English-speaking place, it's likely that they would have used English first names. However I believe Massachusetts Bay *here* and *there* is a de-facto Éire Nuadh and it borders a province where Gaeilg is also spoken (Alba Nuadh), so it's likely, though not certain, that he might have been given some more traditional names. --Kgaughan 09:56, 5 January 2006 (PST)

My objection is that the Kennedeys are Americanised, English speaking citizens of a long-time English speaking province (Boston city's traditionally Irish contingent notwithstanding!). I understand that Irish naming conventions are generally upheld for Irish speaking areas and people, but I don't really see the pressing need for a totally Irish name in an English environment. John Robert Cinneide, maybe, if it must be that some ancestor didn't Anglify the family name, but with all due respect, I honestly think Eoin Roibeard is a little over the top!

I understand that, in Kemr and in Brithenig and in Kemrese territories, brithenigification did not take place. However, the Cinneides/Kennedys live in English speaking territory, which is a little less forgiving of foreign names, and anglification is a process that takes place (note that the English for henge *there* is tawell, and anglification of the Kerno word "tauwals". Even in Boston, you (the Irish) have to speak English to get ahead. Mind you, Boston is probably about the only place in IB where "Hibernian English" -- what we *here* usually think of as the Irish brogue -- is even spoken. Had they lived in Ter Mair, I'd be all for O Cinneide; but in Massacheusetts, I'd really have to favour Kennedy, even if Cinnedey is the actual family name. I really couldn't see Eoin Roibeard at all, unless they were really ethnic fobs. The Kennedys are only ethnic when it suits (i.e., when it's politic and/or when they're speaking in Boston). Elemtilas 10:09, 5 January 2006 (PST)

Eoin Roibeard was a just-in-case suggestion, if it seemed appropriate. Still, it seems to me that given it's proximity to somewhere like Alba Nuadh and the strength of the Irish population in eastern MA which would have formed a sizable chunk of their power base, they may not have bothered anglicising their name. --Kgaughan 11:15, 5 January 2006 (PST)

It's actually not all that close to Alba Nuadh -- while *here*'s Maine is part of Massacheusetts Bay, Boston is no closer to A.N. than it is *here*! Like I said, I have no problem with them using Cinneide; though might suggest that they trot it out more regularly in Boston than elsewhere. Elemtilas 20:40, 5 January 2006 (PST)

And before I forget, another reason is that I can't imagine a situation *there* where Irish names would need to be anglicised and German, French, Italian (aside from dropping the final /e/), and so on wouldn't be. --Kgaughan 11:35, 5 January 2006 (PST)

I would think that the more foreign the name, the more likely it is to be anglicised. Some names, like Mann or di Napoli don't really have to be altered. But let's face it, Irish names just pose problems for the English speaking world. Believe me! I have enough problem with my own name to know that well enough! Elemtilas 20:40, 5 January 2006 (PST)

How about a compromise spelling of O Kinneide. It's likely that they would have kept the "O", dropped the accents, and changed the "C" to a "K" to stop people mispronouncing it with an initial /s/. Other than that, it's spelling shouldn't cause major problems. --Kgaughan 04:36, 6 January 2006 (PST)

This has the added advantage of retaining the name JFK for one of New Amsterdam's Aerodromes. Zahir 05:06, 6 January 2006 (PST)

Yes, it makes good sense to retain the O. You know how the Irish are about their names! ;) As far as the accents are concerned, I don't see any reason why they'd drop them when being ethnic. But, English and Brithenig are rather skittish around accent marks. Agree with C>K. So, O Kinneide it is! Elemtilas 11:03, 6 January 2006 (PST)

This proposal is up for de-proposalizing. Any comments? Objections?