Talk:Andorra

Maybe the link to Castille and leon could be taken out as both geographicaly and policaly Andorra is only realy linked *there* to Aragon and France.

I also wonder if the decentralisation of France would have had an impact, Adorreans could have asked for some form of integration such as becoming a department within Gaulh. On the other hand, If Aragon stayed neutral during GW2 unlike France, Andorra might have looked more to the former during the conflict and this could have lead to even closer link afterward. There would be something ironic to the fact that one of the few real life condominium *here* ceased to exist *there*.

(MP)

Seems to me if you're going to develop an entire country--even a tiny one--then why not GO FOR IT? Maybe come up with a really cool legend about its foundation, and toss in a discovery made by a tourist who happened to be an archeologist that hints the legend was true! Or something. JMHO. Zahir 23:55, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Most list members have tried to stay away from elements that fall into the realm of fantasy. Beside, most of what we do is more patching up history to make IB make sense. In this case, Andorra had been mentioned before (so is QSS) and must somehow be made to make sense in IB.

That being said, if you got an idea for a proposal, go for it.--Marc Pasquin 05:24, 27 Sep 2005 (PDT)

*Here*, the French title of Co-Prince was held by the Count of Foix, who succeeded as King of Navarre, and later as King of France. Did the same history happen *there*? I seem to remember that the pre-Revolution history of France was basically the same, so I would imagine so

Oh! Here's an idea! What if Napoleon's successors, upon the restoration of the Republic, were permitted to retain the title of Co-Prince of Andorra? Going with this idea, what if Napoleon's descendants, having taken up residence in Andorra, later agitated to expel the "foreign" Bishop of Urgell, becoming sole Princes of Andorra? Nik 22:08, 28 October 2005 (PDT)

Like the idea of the bonaparte as rulers of Andorra. As one of the few (if not the only) condominium currently existing *here*, it would be ironic if *there* it was a fully sovereign country. --Marc Pasquin 07:44, 29 October 2005 (PDT)

Another idea - what if Andorra is merely one of two or three similar states in the Pyranees? Nik 22:08, 28 October 2005 (PDT)

What would be the other 2 ? --Marc Pasquin 07:44, 29 October 2005 (PDT)

Chiming in with two remarks:

• I don't recall Andorra has ever been thoroughly discussed. The contents of this article IMHO fall under QAA rather than QSS. So, if someone has a better plan, please spill it!
• Andorra *here* is not a real condominium, although it has some elements of it, but a fully sovereign state of its own. The fact that its two co-rulers are the King of France and the Bishop of Urgell doesn't change that. --IJzeren Jan 11:20, 29 October 2005 (PDT)

For the record, I adore the idea of a Bonaparte throne still occupied in the XXth century! Zahir 22:18, 31 October 2005 (PST)

Napoleonic Andorra

Would it be the Napoleonic Principality of Andorra then? I like the idea, BTW. How would the Bishop of Urgell and the Catholic Church react? BoArthur

The catholic church probably would have less problem then with a republican co-head of state. The first one was responsible for the concordat which brought back catholicism to France.--Marc Pasquin 15:28, 1 November 2005 (PST)

Sucession

I would suggest that at the restoration, Napoleon (whichever he was) would have been given princeship/kingship or andora as consolation price (instead of Elba). So no Louis-Philippe.--Marc Pasquin 15:28, 1 November 2005 (PST)

Lineage

Just for information sake, this is the lineage of the heads of the house of Bonaparte *here*. You obviously don't have to follow it.--Marc Pasquin 15:34, 3 November 2005 (PST)

I was assuming that Napoleon IV lived longer *there* than *here*, long enough to have children Nik 21:17, 3 November 2005 (PST)

Lack of army

• here* the lack of military forces is due to the size of the population/country and treaties signed with both france and spain. What if *there* it was part of the deal struck with Napoleon after losing france ? What a cruel irony it would have been to give him a country as monarch in which he could not, by law, raise an army.--Marc Pasquin 16:24, 3 November 2005 (PST)

It certainly makes sense. And would be the kind of cruel irony suited to the period, imo. Zahir 17:19, 3 November 2005 (PST)

Technically, Andorra does have a military *here*, it just doesn't fight. I'd been wondering whether or not the same military situation should exist *there*. Given its tiny size, though, any military would be bound to be more ceremonial than anything else Nik 21:09, 3 November 2005 (PST)

I think you might be wrong there Nik, I just checked and legaly speaking, the only defence they have is a requirement of every pater familia to own a fire arm. Is that what you were refering to ? --Marc Pasquin 04:54, 4 November 2005 (PST)

The Wikipedia article states that "All able-bodied men who own firearms must serve, without remuneration, in the small army, which is unique in that all of its men are treated as officers. The army has not fought for more than 700 years, and its main responsibility is to present the Andorran flag at official ceremonies." It doesn't say anything about a requirement to own a gun, though. But, yeah, I guess that's not really a military force Nik 05:46, 4 November 2005 (PST)

From the official site of the french co-prince:

http://www.coprince-fr.ad/frances/elements.htm

"Par un accord signé en 1176 avec l'évêque Bernat Sanç, les Andorrans reconnaissent la souveraineté de l'église d'Urgell, s'engagent à verser un tribut en monnaie à l'évêque et à mettre à son service un homme de chaque maison, en cas de conflit armé. Ces obligations d'ordre judiciaire et militaire, ainsi que la prestation de tous les autres droits, ont été confirmées aux évêques successifs."

tr: by an accord signed in 1176 with the bishop Bernat Sanç, the adorrans recognise the sovereignty of the church of Urgell, engaging themselves to pay a tribute in cash to the bishop and to put in its service a man of each house, in case of armed conflict. These obligations of judicial and military orders, as well as the protection of all the other rights, have been confirmed to successive bishops.

The CIA factbook mention that national defence is jointly under french and spanish responsability. I don`t know where the wikipedia item comes from. Although I use it myself, the fact that anyone can edit it means that once in a while, dodgy items comes through (though for all I know, whoever wrote that had access to something I couldn`t find). Interstingly enough, there is no mention whatsoever in the constitution to Andorra having or not having a military forces (unlike some other small countries)

--Marc Pasquin 07:01, 4 November 2005 (PST)

proposals for an andorrean flag

Since the one currently on the page is just the one from here slightly modified (I can't remember why I added the crown), I thought we might have something more appropriate.

The first and second use the traditional shape of the andorran COA but with the 1st and 4th place occupied by Napoleon I's own and the 2nd and 3rd by the (pre-napoleon) Bonaparte's family COA. This would have been done to replace the 2 co-princes' and former owners' amrs. Also, the colours of the 2 new ones would change the meaning of the field's bands from representing france and spain to being livery colours. I kept the princely crown. note that the direction of the bands have changed over the years so both would make sense altough the horizontal one would show more independence.

The last 2 use the real one *here* (and presumably former one *there*) defaced with an inescutcheon in the colour of the reigning family (as in spain *here*). It occured to me that the eagle might be too associated with the imperial era to be acceptable to all party involved so they could have reverted to the previous ones (#4).

Personnaly I prefer #1. --Marc Pasquin 17:36, 9 November 2005 (PST)

• 

  proposal # 1

• An!2.png

  proposal # 2

• An!3.png

  proposal # 3

• An!4.png

  proposal # 4

For whatever it is worth, I like #1 as well. Zahir 18:05, 9 November 2005 (PST)

Yeah, I like #1. Nik 20:01, 9 November 2005 (PST)

I do like #1 the best. BoArthur 13:47, 15 November 2005 (PST)

(Can't think of an appropriate header right now)

As far as I am concerned, this and the whole bunch of Napoleons can be deproposed. It doesn't look like there is even the slightest QSS conflict. Personally, I like all this stuff! --IJzeren Jan 04:43, 14 November 2005 (PST)

French claim

It has now been explained how the spanish gave up their co-princeship but what about France ? Based on the date (and assuming the same or similar president in france), the government would have been made of the Socialists so it could have been an decision from them to "get rid of this remnant of anachronistic fealty.--Marc Pasquin 18:16, 14 November 2005 (PST)

I was assuming that the French claim expired in 1870, when Andorra was given to Napoleon III Nik 13:37, 15 November 2005 (PST)

Fair enough, severance pay sort of thing ?--Marc Pasquin 14:58, 15 November 2005 (PST)

Andorrean Merchant Navy

In case anyone is wondering, *here* Mongolia has a Merchant navy. --Marc Pasquin 16:47, 22 November 2005 (PST)

I think I read once so does Switzerland. Personally, I like this! Although it kinda/sorta is up there with the Scots of Egypt as a very eccentric detail. Still, it isn't like there aren't lots of such *here* so why not *there* as well? Look at the SS. Or the Berlin Wall. Or how a certain Wallachian warlord has come to be remembered. Zahir 18:42, 22 November 2005 (PST)

I like the idea! Nik 20:30, 22 November 2005 (PST)