File talk:NAL navy sleeves.jpg

look good, my only suggestion would be to replace the maple leaf with something more abstract (for the same reason I gave about the sub-lieutant board). You could for example have a simple circle and if you wat to make sure it is not confused with the officer's dimaond, you could put the NAL's dipper symbol in it:

Let me come up with some ideas and I'll post them, shall I? Zahir 11:34, 24 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Okay, how about one of these? Honestly, I'd rather it be just one symbol rather than something quite as complex as the Big Dipper. For one thing, it makes a lot less work for me...

The voided triangle would look good (and make sense as being an "half-diamond"). the sun you used for the generals so it might look odd in this context. The snowflake might be used by the provincial militias of Mueva sepherad and Nunavut but would look odd in the southern ones (if they never had distinct rank insignias, they might simply have adopted the NAL system with different symbols). The voided stars would also be good considering it is part of the flag and would look "demured" enough next to the filled diamonds.

One thing to remember thogh is that I am not the caretaker of NAL nor of in any of its provinces so don't feel like you have go along with any of my suggestions.--Marc Pasquin 12:00, 24 Sep 2005 (PDT)

I'm just grateful for the thoughtful feedback. Zahir 12:01, 24 Sep 2005 (PDT)

You're welcome, feel free to do the same anytime.--Marc Pasquin 12:39, 24 Sep 2005 (PDT)

Maple leaf

Okay, I've only found one person who had any objection to the maple leaf, which I'm told is indigenous to North America so unless someone objects I want to keep it.

The sigil at the top of the board is one I prefer from those getting a positive feedback. The crown refers to the nation as a whole and to whatever crowned head the particular sailor prefers. The three stars refer to several things, but in the SLN they are generally considered to mean the three "Fleets," i.e. Arctic, North Atlantic and South Atlantic (usually referred to as the Carribean Fleet).

I've dropped the scroll in favor of a wave design to give it a slight Scandavian touch, while in general retaining the other styles of insignia, including a hint of Native Tribal.

Comments? Questions? Zahir 08:27, 29 Sep 2005 (PDT)

So far so good! Keep up the good work! What about fringed epaulettes for gala uniforms — to be worn during royal occassions (e.g., royal visits, royal weddings, royal birthdays, etc.). I know that in Denmark *here*, naval officers still wear them as part of their gala uniform. Boreanesia 09:39, 29 Sep 2005 (PDT)

My only objection to the maple leaf would be that it seem odd for a navy to chose a land based item which is not part of the national symbols. In that sense, either the diamonds (from the epaulette) or a star (from the flag) would make more sense to me.--Marc Pasquin 19:21, 3 December 2005 (PST)

It is a symbol of the land which the Navy defends. That's my take. Zahir 20:05, 3 December 2005 (PST)

But then you'd think they would use a *national* symbol of said land. The star on the other hand, even if it weren't present on the flag, would have the excuse of being a common heraldic symbol which in turn meant it was (and is) present on a lot of uniform worldwide.

--Marc Pasquin 14:17, 4 December 2005 (PST)

I don't find "This way it'll look more like everyone else's" a very persuasive argument. Nor do I see any reason to presume the maple leaf is not or has not been at some point a symbol of the North American League or of America. As I pointed out earlier, it is a tree indigenous to North America. One might just as easily ask why oak leaves became an insignia of rank in the US Army when one searchs in vain for any oak leaves on the US flag. For that matter, there's no eagle on the US flag either but eagles dot the official insignia of US government departments in nearly all directions. Given our origins as English colonies, one might expect to see lions instead but we do not.

My point is that there is a perfectly valid reason to suppose that the maple leaf as a symbol is associated with the NAL. Zahir 14:36, 4 December 2005 (PST)

In alternate history, I find that trying to attach a given element you have created to patterns and tendency makes it more believable. Go through the the FIC section of FOTW.net and you will probably find that those flags that look the most plausible are exactly those that drew inspiration from already existing ones.

The adoption of the oak leaves is actualy quite straighforward, like the stars, they had an heraldic history and were (and still are) on uniforms of many countries. The use of the maple leaf on the other hand was limited originaly to french settlers (as it was part of their local diet, used as medicine and a sign of difference from France). it then spreaded over the years with the vaguary of political and conquest to ontario then the rest of canada.

Lastly, regarding the eagle, you might have noticed its presence behind the shield on the US' Coat of arms. The adoption of the eagle (as a roman republican symbol) instead of a lion was *exactly* that the rebels did not want to use symbols from their former motherland (and fair enough).

--Marc Pasquin 16:08, 4 December 2005 (PST)

Okay hands up--does anyone else have any problems with using the Maple Leaf? Zahir 16:41, 4 December 2005 (PST)

Maybe its just the use of bold letters but you seem to be getting a bit agitated about this. my elaboration on the subject was not meant as an attack.--Marc Pasquin 17:04, 4 December 2005 (PST)

Okay, fine. I accept that. But it has been a hell of a day, a worse week and a much, much worse month. And I thought this particular question had been settled. I like the maple leaf. I've gotten some positive comments about it. You are the only one to see a problem, or at least the only one to mention it. And I still don't see that there even is a problem. So yeah, I'm overreacting a little bit. Because I'm tired and this is just sooooo tiny. This takes a lot of work, and lets face it the positive feedback in IB is kinda meagre. It is such a delight to read anytime someone says Hey! I like that! in response to anything at all because frankly it doesn't happen too often, not around here. And I am in a very lousy mood. So I apologize. But I still like the maple leaf. Zahir 17:38, 4 December 2005 (PST)

Zahir, sorry that our approval's not as effusive as it could be. I have enjoyed watching your additions to IB. As for the argument at hand, I think that it's not improbable for the maple leaf to gradually represent the SLC Navy; you may want to suggest it's from the original sailors in the artic fleet, and that it's gradually entered the whole of the navy insignia?

I think, however, if you are not keen to make an elaborate back story you could go with the star instead of the maple. However, you could argue that it was picked (maple) because the Petty Officer Rank was first filled largely by personnel from New England? I don't know, something along that line. As a happy medium suggestion. BoArthur 19:29, 4 December 2005 (PST)

I think I've come up with a believable backstory in my proposal on Benedict Arnold. Please let me know if you think this makes sense. Zahir 21:30, 4 December 2005 (PST)