Talk:Turkey
Anonymous proposal:
Factbook
- Government: Democratic republic
- Official Name: Republic of Turkey
- President: Tansu Ciller
- Prime Minister: Dorgan Recep Dogsu
- Population: 17 Million
- Capital: Ankara [formerly Gordion]
- Official language: Turkish
- Official script: Latin (since 1983)
- Religions: Sunni Muslim, Christianity, Shi'ite Islam, various denominations of Judaism, Syrian Orthodox Christians, 24% of the population athiest
- Currency: 1 xenare = 100 kurus = 1000 milim
- Establishement of the Republic: 10 September 1923
Past historical developments
Owing to the 16th Century [A.D.] victories of Mohammed Zahir-un-din, also known as Babur, against the Safavids, the changes to the Ottoman dynasty and polity were remarkably imperceptable -- until the year 1835 [A.D.], when the reigning Sultan died of an abrupt heart attack. His successor was his son Murad.
Murad, upon taking the throne, did all he could to keep his country solvent. However, this involved tightening control over the Middle East and the Balkans, which sowed the seeds for rebellion. In the 1840s, Sultan Murad recieved emmissaries from the Baburids to the east, proposing a Holy War against the Safavid Persians. However, Murad, like his son and grandson would be, was too busy quelling insurrections in the Ottoman Realm for taking part in a Holy War.
Albania gained independence from Turkey in August 1894, after the Albanians took inspiration from the Hungarians (1869), Bulgarians (January 1893), Dalmatians (1890) and others who rose up against the Ottoman Empire. The Albanians, however, were aided by troops from the Two Sicilies, which goes a long way to explain the cold shoulder the Two Sicilies and Turkey give one another, diplomatically speaking.
Recent historical developments
In the wake of the Great War of 1914-1918, newly-crowned Sultan Ibrahim moved the capital to the more secure location of Gordion, home of the legendary King Midas.
In 1920, Sultan Ibrahim instituted the Language Reform, which purged Turkey’s Osmanlica alphabet of Persian characters. Facing rebellion in the same year, he ordered a forced march of all Kurds and Armenians to the nations of their co-nationals to the east. The Syrian citizens, however, he allowed the option to stay in Turkey.
In 1922, the country became a republic, and Sultan Ibrahim fled with his family to Persia. The first president was Gansu Kemal, who modernised the rather backward country, and introduced Latin, even though it didn't become the legal official script until 1983. Turkey took neutrality in the Second Great War as the elderly Kemal did not want a national disaster occuring due to a war. Military took over for fifteen years in 1950, and the Second Republic was created. The Third Republic was created after a revolution liberated the country in 1966. In the past few years, they have improved their previously troubled human rights record, and also the economy has improved.
Look, anonymous user, we appreciate it that you want to contribute to our project. But you can't just start editing articles - without any introduction, without any discussion. We've asked you for that before, but you don't seem to read the talk pages of the articles you edit. I've reverted your changes to Turkey, and copied your proposal here on the talk page. Please discuss it with us before doing anything in article please. By the way, as it looks now, this proposal is completely unacceptable; it violates far too many pre-established facts. Please, read what's written on the Main Page and How It All Works first! I assume your intentions are honourable, but if you continue editing articles like this, you will be blocked. Best regards, IJzeren Jan 09:23, 28 November 2005 (PST)
MR independence
May I add the MR to the list of nations whose independence from the Ottoman Empire inspired the Albanians? Monastic Republic (1878). Caeruleancentaur 16:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Help with Arabic Script
One thing that never sat well with me was that Turkey's page uses a lot of modern Turkish (like "Türkiye"), which is misleading because *there's* Turkey still writes their alphabet in the Arabic script, albeit a heavily modified one purged of any Muslim Persian influences (which is also strange because A.) Most Iranians either stayed Zoroastrian or apostatized from Islam to it and B.) What did Persia do to piss off Turkey, anyway?). I wanted to write things like "Türkiye" and "Osmanlı Devleti" with Arabic to give the page a veneer of authenticity, but with the vowels all looking the same, for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to do it since I don't know the script at all. Finding "Gordion" was easy; if they have no Persian letters in their alphabet, then using the Arabic word for it works in a pinch. But everything else? I need help.
Also, what's actually way more disturbing to me about Turkey's page is that it came out of the blue from someone who never registered with us, that Jan warned numerous times contradicted a lot of established history, and still got posted onto Turkey's page and passed off as canon. Honestly, I had to study Ottoman history in school because of how much its specter shows up in my studies (international relations with a concentration in E. Europe with some North Africa thrown in, modern Greek), so I know a bit. This page takes the worst of real life history and IB and throws it all in a blender. I'd like to propose a complete rewrite and I'd like to stake a claim as the caretaker of Turkey, Armenia, and Cyprus. The former two have never had any caretakers to speak of, and Padraic is retired, so the best I can do is not step on anyone's toes and keep its history and politics in line with English history. I've been meaning to ask this request since about October, but reading Jan's message to the anonymous creator that says "by the way, as it looks now, this proposal is completely unacceptable; it violates far too many pre-established facts," was the last straw. There's no one to really grant me this, I s'pose: the Yahoo group is long dead, and no one on the Facebook group really has the authorization, but come on, just because the chain of command is long gone means we have to put up with bad history? Misterxeight 10:36, 23 March 2017 (PDT)
- Lol, for the “Persian characters” thing I’d just substitute it as “non-Turkish characters”, i.e. any letters superfluous for writing the Turkified form of the word. I also wouldn’t think too hard about this somehow partially ending up here on this page. Must’ve just slipped through. I s’pose we’re probably top dogs in the project now, even if some of the Old Guard is still left and semi-involved. IMO we should just act as regents in absentia and assume that the original creators aren’t coming back in the near future. As long as we’re not nuking QSS like it’s North Korea, I don’t think the old guard will mind.
The demographics you wrote up look pretty good. Just two notes though; one, you forgot the Karamanlides... I’m rather fond of them, I would like to see them mentioned! Second, I think that in IB Alevism is fairly firmly established as part of Islam, since it is the main religion of the Muslim Moghul National Realm. Other than that, this looks good. Keep up the good work!Juanmartinvelezlinares 09:02, 3 January 2018 (PST)
Hey thanks. I uh messed up with that, I meant to write that the Cappadocians and Karamanlides got conflated as one ethnicity, henceforth known just as Christian Turks, with no one bothering that the specific "Turks" in Cappadocia happen to more or less be speaking a Greek dialect so Turkified that it's almost mutually intelligible to regular Turks. I have their specific alphabet used to write Turkish saved somewhere, I should download it to this page.
- About that. I've been meaning to bring that up. Alevism in our world is almost completely concentrated in Turkey and Azerbaijan with pockets left in the Balkans. Theologically, it's not really different from the Bektashi Sufi Order, if at all, whereas the latter firmly aligned itself with the Ottoman state and thus asserts that it's Sunni without even paying the slightest lip-service to theological orthodoxy, the former has become almost like an ethnoreligious group and is not open to converts, and its rituals are somewhat secretive. This is another big difference between Bektashism which is pretty open: I did a paper on the Bektashi Order based in Michigan and they invited me to their tekke/monastery and to convert to Islam. An Alevi tekke would not offer the same invitations although I've seen plenty of documentaries with their worship services so things might be changing. We need to find a damn good reason for why the Mughals in this world are Alevis.
- There might be a way. In reality, Alevism is a catchall term. Here's our opening so that we don't need to pull our hair to figure out how to do this: "Some sources (Martin van Bruinessen and Jamal Shah) call Alevi 'a blanket term for a large number of different heterodox communities', and includes Arabic speaking Alawites in southern Turkey, and Azarbayjani speaking Turkish in the eastern province of Kars 'whose Alevism differs little from the 'orthodox' Twelver Shi'ism of modern Iran'."
There we have it. It can be a completely different evolution of the Shia faith that's not theologically connected to the Alevism of Turkey, just as the Alawites in Syria have no theological connection to Turkish Alevis and believe different things to an extent (the Alawites have some Druze notions too, like reincarnation and no souls for women or rather a different kind of soul that doesn't reincarnate like men, something like that). Ismaili Shiism got big, so I wonder if a new religious movement could come out of Sevener Islam instead of Twelver Islam. The Mughals of our world tried to make their own religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i_Ilahi), I wonder if this can be the way that we do it. Some Mughal Emperor gets courted by the Ismaili strongholds, he gets in a civil war with some of his brothers who rally the orthodox Sunnis to their side, the Sunni side gets crushed, and now the winning brother is free to make Ismaili Islam the religion of the land, but he takes it a step further and creates a new movement within Islam, incorporating Zoroastrian and Hindu religious notions and makes the faith ghulat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat), with him and his descendants the deified ones and head of the order. The Mughal Sultan can be the Aga Khan of Ismaili Islam and the Imam. "Alevism" can just be an epithet thrown at them by sore-loser Sunnis which sticks as a catch-all term in the western scholarly world. Hey, you know what, I'm not as annoyed by the users of old anymore: we can do this. The Islamic world of IB is also much more Shia and I love that. It makes for an interesting layout of the land. Misterxeight 09:58, 3 January 2018 (PST)
Sandbox
For reference later: "Owing to the 16th Century [A.D.] victories of Mohammed Zahir-un-din, also known as Babur, against the Narsids, the changes to the Ottoman dynasty and polity were remarkably imperceptible -- until the year 1835 [A.D.], when the reigning sultan died of an abrupt heart attack. His successor was his son Murad.
Murad, upon taking the throne, did all he could to keep his country solvent. However, this involved tightening control over the Middle East and the Balkans, which sowed the seeds for rebellion. In the 1840s, Sultan Murad received emissaries from the Baburids to the east, proposing a holy war against the Safavid Persians. However, Murad, like his son and grandson would be, was too busy quelling insurrections in the Ottoman Realm for taking part in a holy war.
Albania gained independence from Turkey in August 1894, after the Albanians took inspiration from the Hungarians (1869), Bulgarians (January 1893), Dalmatians (1890) and others who rose up against the Ottoman Empire. The Albanians, however, were aided by troops from the Two Sicilies, which goes a long way to explain the cold shoulder the Two Sicilies and Turkey give one another, diplomatically speaking.
In the wake of the Great War of 1914-1918, newly-crowned Sultan Ibrahim moved the capital to the more secure location of Gordion (غورديوم), home of the legendary King Midas.
In 1920, Sultan Ibrahim instituted the Language Reform, which purged Turkey’s Osmanlica alphabet of Persian characters. Facing rebellion in the same year, he ordered a forced march of all Kurds and Armenians to the nations of their co-nationals to the east. The Syrian citizens, however, he gave the option of staying in Turkey.
Among the formerly Ottoman countries which have maintained at least warm, if not particularly close, relations with Turkey, are Sanjak and Bulgaria. The other successor states are fairly hostile to Turkey.
Alongside Iraaq and Saudi Arabia, Turkey is one of the few outright supporters of the nation of Sanjak.
On 5 May, 1991, the Anatolian Kingdom of Turkey supported an Islamic Revolution in Sanjak, and shortly afterwards, attempted a second one in Albania - though the second one failed."
Alawites in Turkey
In real life, there were 700,000 in 1970 and then 1,500,000 in 2009, an annual increase of 1.57%. That would mean that by 2020, there were 1,780,373 of them. However, "Hatay" is in Syria, so I have to subtract their amount of Alawites to see how much the rest of Turkey would have. A French report said during their occupation that 28% of the province was Alawite. If I take the population of Hatay as is, that would mean that [1,780,373-(1,618,031*.28)]= 1,327,324.32 Alawites left in the rest of Turkey. If I scale back Hatay's population by 56%, that means there are 1562909.6336 Alawite people. I could just be lazy and say that surveys are hazy and dangerous and on top of that all Muslims are counted as Sunni in Turkish stats, so there are as little as 1,327,324 Alawites or as many as 1,562,910 in Turkey, especially in the city of Adana.
