Talk:Dumnonia

Is anyone going to write the 2nd level subdivisions of Dumnonia, as they are here? --Sikulu 09:46, 16 March 2006 (PST)

The four kingdoms? I know a lot about them -- I simply haven't written much down about them (there are a few articles at bethisad.com). What you see on that map is the borders between the old tutas or tribal lands. As (post-Roman) history has progressed, these evolved into smallish kingdoms that were united under the aegis of the kingdom of "Dunnow" -- that is, the old Dumnonii, with their allies the Cornobii at the far western end. Eventually, as the kingdom of Dumnonia becomes part of Kemr (838) and thereafter, these regional divisions become less important.

After 1307 (and the reconstitution of the Senate), the old tutas become the bases for legislative districts. Three under-kings and twenty-five senators are elected from each tuta and are sent to Esca to form the basis of the government. The 100 senators form the, well, the Senate (not to be confused with Bonny Prince Eugene's Senate, which came about in 1406, and is the High Senate which sits at Castreleon). The twelve under-kings serve as a sort of cabinet. A High King is elected as an executive, and may come from any tuta or centref.

Each of the tutas used to be quite distinct in manner and tongue. There were three chief languages in Dumnonia (and a number of minority langauges, most of which are long dead): Belgeo, Durro and Kerno (which is actually composed of eastern and western varieties). Belgeo is long dead, having become thoroughly Paesan-Brithenig speaking a long time ago. Durro is hanging on mostly because it's kind of out-of-the-way. Kerno is pretty close to dead as well, having been taken over by a form of Paesan-Brithenig during the last century. The effective linguistic border is now set at the Tamar, and very few indeed are the westerners who are L1 Kerno speakers. For thát you'ld have to pop on over to France or the NAL or somesuch place.

Why the Emir of Cernaw? Shouldn't that be Duke or something? I thought it had been established that the Muslim Conquests didn't extend that far north, or have I missed something important? --Sikulu 09:53, 16 March 2006 (PST)

Emir because in 750 there was an invasion from the Cordoba Caliphate. Dumnonia was in no position to resist, since it was recovering from wars with Ina's Wessex. Anyway, the Cordobans set up housekeeping and by century's end control the coastal strip from Falmouth to Saintshead (ahout the western half of *here*'s Cornwall). Wessex invades again shortly thereafter -- the Moslems had had enough time to make some inroads both culturally and religiously, but they were cut off in 814 when Egbert laid the land waste "from East to West" and a renewed Dumnonian was able to push the bloody Saxon back across the border and clean up the remains of the diminutive emirate. While Islam quietly fades away for the next few centuries, the Moors did leave behind a slightly southern accent in the music, architecture and manuscript illumination style of the kingdom.

Upon the death of queen saint Julia Sexta at the hands of Egbert, Constantine V was acclaimed king by the armies and is confirmed by the (Old) Senate. Having done in the remaining Moorish defenders, he (perhaps whimsically?) took the title Emir of Qarnaw as well as Emperor of the Cornubians and High King of Dumnonia. Some later historians think that Constantine was himself a Moslem convert, as there were a number of conversions during that time. In 838, the title of Emperor becomes extinct (on account of the melding of Dumnonia (Dunein) and Bretania (Brehun) with Kemr.

It is still a proposal that Moslem conquests be fewer, but quite frankly, we need to have the Moslems in North Africa in order for them to get to Spain. Without the Moslem conquests in Spain, we have no reconquista. Without a reconquista, we have no Christopher Columbus discovering the new world (which, quite frankly, the Norse and Britons already knew about for a vèry long time). Without the events of 1492 and ff., we don't have South American history as we know it.

This quiet little Dumnonian factoid is very old QSS, and depends on the Moslem conquests in Spain. See Talk:Muslim conquests.

Elemtilas 13:31, 16 March 2006 (PST)

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So, basically, Dumnonia has a simmilar status that Scotland has *here*, in that its a part of a larger polity, but with its own parliament. --Sikulu 00:39, 17 March 2006 (PST)

Yes and no. I might also note that Cornwall *here* has it's own parliament, too, which the Dumnonian one is based on. The status *there* is a damn sight better, though! So, yes in that it is part of a larger polity etc.

But also no... Dumnonia is quíte different in that it was a willing union with a larger and more powerful country but with a more equal cultural balance, rather than a hostile take-over. The Dumnonian rheither is the only Kemrese governor who has a relationship of equals with the Kemrese monarch, and has the ancient right to "harangue the High Senate" when things get bad enough. The provincial government has considerable internal autonomy and the right to (sensibly) veto laws deemed harmful to the province. If an Act passed by the High Senate doesn't specifically name Dunein, it doesn't apply to the province at all.

Like Scotland, though, it retains the right to emit its own banknotes (though unlike Scotland, also to mint its own coins) so long as it does so in such a manner as not to cause devaluation of the monety

Please forgive my ignorance of these things. I haven't had time to look through the conculture group's IB articles (and there are a lot of them). --Sikulu 00:45, 17 March 2006 (PST)

No worries. Most stuff on Dunein was written by about 2000 or so. Elemtilas 14:10, 17 March 2006 (PST)

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Does Dumnonia have its own legal tradition? --Quentin 21:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It's legal tradition is largely parallel to the rest of Kemr's and evolved from the same sources, though has probably retained a larger portion of the "traditional" system than did Kemr proper. We know Dunein has two complementary systems, a sort of common law system that derives from the native Celtic legal system and a Roman law system based on, well, Roman law. The former generally handles small claims, simple infractions and the like, while the latter handles more complex cases, felonies, violent crimes, and the like. The traditional system is more informal in setting and nature and, legally, is I suppose more a form of arbitration than anything else. You and your opponent stand before a druidical judge who hears the testimony, looks at the evidence and applies traditional legal wisdom to arrive at a resolution. The other system involves panels of judges on high benches and lawyers and fancy robes and horse hair wigs and lots of Latin mumbo-jumbo. I suspect that the higher courts are about the same everywhere in Kemr. I don't know if the rest of Kemr (outside of Ill Paes) has retained the traditional system or not. The penalties meted out by judges in the two systems varies considerably. Druidical judges can't impose high fines the way bench judges can, though they are freer to impose more creative penalties, and often come up with suitably ironic as well as just punishments.

Its legal system has largely been absorbed into that of Kemr over the centuries. So I suppose the short answer is "no, not really", just the ghostly images of a once fully independent judiciary.

Now, the one part of Dunein that definitely has its own legal tradition is Lundy. As is well known to every justiciar and senator in Kemr, Lundy's master is something of a law unto himself. He is responsible, through his Men, to ensure order and carry out the king's High Justice. It scares a lot of the wet fancies up in Castreleon, especially considering Mr Morris's doings of late, but what it really means is he is obligated to hire on a common law judge who can hear all the mundane cases of spitting and loitering and taunting of Armorican tourists with cat tails that tend to crop up in such a tiny community. Most of the disorderly conduct and such that occurs is tourists enjoying themselves entirely too much. Lundy is famous for never having stricken ány of its formal laws or Masters' pronouncements from the books. Some of them are quite bizarre, like the one about banishing "...any man with the name of William Drake who shall have consumed more than two pints at Kingshead Tavern, for the whole Realm knows he is a sot and like to behave boorishly in the company of Ladies." (Pronouncements, 1443). Or the one about "Pirates, or any other man having lost his limb at sea, shall forbear from wearing their geoamdebos within the precincts of the holy monestary church and its brickwork walkways." (Laws, 1555) Seems that one François le Clerc sued the Master at Esca for loss of his costly ivory inlaid pegleg to some loose old brickwork in the churchyard. Records show that, although le Clerc was actually conducting some possibly clandestine business in the middle of the night in the churchyard, the Master's exchequer was nevertheless charged 14s to replace the Norman's artificial leg. Anymore, such laws are just left unprosecuted, but it's a matter of local pride to have the most unchanged legal system anywhere in the world.

Presumably Morris could say "off with their body parts of choice!" and that would be that. But no Master has ever been so stupid as to behave in so obviously dictatorial a fashion. The gig is just too cushy to throw it all away by playing at tin-hat despot. Elemtilas 23:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)