File talk:EasternEurope2.png

This picture does not look as a good strategic plan for Operation:Rheingold. If Germans knew (anyhow) that Russians are going to attack Croatia, even if they notice it later, they in 100 per cent would go on the southern flank directly to south to cut, enpocket and destroy the Russian forces there. That was the major doctrine/algorithm of blitzkrieg: advance, encircle and destroy. I would not believe anyone that they did it not ;) Jan II. 22:55, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

My premise (based on the GW2 article) is that Serbia invaded Croatia with Russian support and that the HRE invaded Russia almost immediately afterwards. Prussia had a plan, Operation Rhinegold, to invade Russia which was activated when Croatia was attacked. The idea was that the plan (like Barbarossa *here*) was gigantically complicated, involving the movements of literally millions of troops. Hessler saw this as a question of initiative. But there's also another element to consider--the goal of the plan. Rhinegold was intended as the conquest of Russia not the defense of Croatia. The brutal fact was that HRE could afford to let Croatia bleed, but Russia could not allow the Wehrmacht to penetrate deep into their homeland, not without trying to stop them. Forces in the Balkans might very well do as you suggest. In fact, I'd say that is more than likely. But millions of troops preparing to launch themselves east are not going to be diverted south across a mountain chain at the last moment. When US General Patton in 1944 turned a single Army something like 180 degrees to relieve Bastoyne, this was regarded as an awesome feat. Diverting three whole Army Groups would be more difficult by a several orders of magnitude. Also, Army Group C was tasked to turn South once the breakthrough had been achieved, in effect targetting the Russian Balkan forces and their reserves. Zahir 23:14, 28 May 2006 (PDT)

There is no doubt that HRE would let Croatia bleed till death. My point went to the fact, and you said that Germans knew about Russian attack on Croatia, that the Armeegruppe C definitely will try to close the Russian forces on Balkan, not allowing them to take part in defence of Rodina. The first strategic aim of any major offensive anytime is to divide the enemy forces into pieces, which can fight only in a limited extent and to concetrate own forces as much as it is possible. I would even think, that Germans prepared a trap for Russians on Balkan. Initially they did not turn south but have shown movement eastwards, then, when Russians turned back (or north to penetrate behind Germna lines), the Armeegruppe C can attack from the flank on a long front to prevent Russians to concentrate. See

Also, Vissarionov was not Stalin, he'd not given the leave to the soldiers and officiers for 21st June 1941 only because the secret service told him, that Germans will attack that day ;) The moment of surprise cannot lie in IB on the same ground as *here*. To enmass some 100 divisions cannot happen unseen; *here* Stalin was blinded by smth, but Vissarionov? Vissarionov will not be stunned by German attack as Stalin, who simply has not acted for almost a week. The poor soldiers of Red Army thought, that it is just some maneveurs training, because their officer were not informed about attack for few days. Also, SNORist Russia have not purged almost all capable officers prior to war. Without these factors, Hitler would not be able to steamroll over the Red Army. Red Army in 1941 was deorganised, poorly lead, poorly equipped and undermotivated. White Army, on the other side not; they might have worse arms than HRE soldiers, but definitely should have superior morale and leaders than Red Army. If the Germans are just enmassing troops and invade, they can shortly be stopped by disciplined defenders on a long front they created. There must be some kinda strategy behind. I don't think that the famous Hitler's sentence could be applied to SNOR Russia: "We'll just kick the door and the whole rotten building will collapse." Not in 1941, IMHO. Jan II. 01:29, 29 May 2006 (PDT)

The article associated with this image is listed as a Work In Progress. As such, I welcome your comments and suggestions. However, the article does address some of the issues you raise. For one thing, Operation Rhinegold happens in 1944, not 1941. The scenario I was working on (and all of this is not yet part of the article) was that Russia and the HRE both know a war is coming. Both are preparing for it. The Russian plan was to disrupt Prussian timetables with what in effect a kind of drawn-out feint into Croatia. In theory the Wehrmacht would turn and engage the enemy where he had invaded their territory. Hessler did not do that, however. He ordered Rhinegold activated immediately. By coincidence more than anything else, the White Army's preparations for further war left them vulnerable at that moment to the gigantic assault coming through Veneda.

Rhinegold was far more successful than Barbarossa in terms of actual territory, especially Army Group B which took Moscow. However, the White Army and Snorist Russia were better prepared than the Soviet Union. Winter did help the defenders, but quite so much as it did in WW2, but more importantly Russia had the resources to take a blow that in most nations would have been fatal.

I was assuming that Rhinegold and Barbarossa were similarly set out tactically--three army groups aiming for (1) the north and Petrograd, (2) the center and Moscow, and (3) the south and the Ukraine, Russia's breadbasket. Their point of departure is different, which in this case actually is an advantage. All three Army Groups enter Russia via Veneda, then diverge for their three objectives. Increasingly, I believe Army Group C (South) would be the one to get into real trouble. The simple fact is that for long term advantage Russia needed the Ukraine more than it needed Moscow and that was the general area where the most battle-hardened troops would be stationed. Besides, simple logistics says Army Group C had the longest distance to go, giving the White Army more time to prepare a defense against the specific units en route.

A few other points. I did not in fact say that the Germans knew Croatia was to be invaded. Nor was that part of my plans for the article. Prussia knew that Russia was going to attack (or believed, correctly, that they would) but not where. Given that the Prussian conquest of Moscow is QSS, and that Hessler was a far more able commander than Hitler, and that Snorist Russia was nowhere near as weak as the Soviet Union, other factors must call for the fall of Moscow. But of course, I'm still working on this. Zahir 07:36, 29 May 2006 (PDT)

First of all, let me excuse for not reading the article before I've been preaching here. Second, after reading it, I would rather have more objections. What I fear is, that I am not able to support my theses with arguments, as this is construction in complexity far beyond my abilities to follow it in details. Instinctively, as a player of strategic games (in recent year of Hearts of Iron 2, which is the total simulation of world in war between 1936-1953; in many aspects close to Ill-Bethisad, because it is open sourced history), I cannot agree with the basic concept of Fall Rheingold. As I said, I can lay here few my thoughts, but I would be hardly able to make them good. If you want to hear them, tell me, if not I'll shut up with no feeling of being shifted off ;) Jan II. 01:00, 31 May 2006 (PDT)

Go ahead. Just keep in mind it is a WIP and many things are far from set. I am working from two overt sources: (1) QSS which said that when Russia and Serbia invaded Croatia in 1944, Hessler immediately ordered an invasion of Russia via Veneda, which ultimately conquered Moscow, and (2) Actual operational details from *here* of Operation Barbarossa, which very nearly accomplished its target. But I look forward to your feedback very much. Zahir 07:33, 31 May 2006 (PDT)