Talk:Moravljanjec

Benct, could we add Moravian to "official" list of Romance langs or not? Jan II.

Great Jan! I think we definitely can add Moravian to the "official" list of Romance langs. The only ones likely to object are the ministry of education in Kasovlja! ;-)

But why ň rather than ń?

Yes, ń sounds more logical than ň, I fully agree. Just a initial misconception of mine ;) Jan II. 9:59, 18 Aug 2005 (CEST)

But what to do with the capitals of d', l' t' ? (You don't mention tj/t' at all but I assume that is a mere slip!) BPJ 19 Aug 2005

We simply need to pray not to ever try to write any of these capitals on computer :) I would suggest to use Unicode posibility to put accent mark & #x0341; also over capital D, T. There is already a letter for accented L on my keyboard because of Slovaks who do use it (they have long liquid consonant L).Jan II.

I think the best bet is to use & #x02B9; after tall letters and capitals. Let's call it a "feature" of Moravljanjec orthography! :-) BPJ 09:35, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Cʹć Dʹdʹ Lʹlʹ Nʹń Sʹś Tʹtʹ Zʹź Yeah that looks nice! BPJ 14:51, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Not really, because all I get to see is a lot of boxes. But tell, what's wrong with Ćć Ĺĺ etc.? --IJzeren Jan 23:32, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

You have to look at it in Firefox and have a good Unicode font installed. The problem is that Unicode doesn't have D d T t with acute above! BPJ 20 Aug 2005

Sure, but I still don't see the advantage of Sʹ over Ś. Besides, here at home I can easily install Firefox, but at work I can't. --80.127.230.153 05:48, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

The "advantage" is that D d T t with accent above simply don't exist, so a following prime is the second best choice as the easiest way to fake the effect. As for Firefox vs. IE I simply think it is Microsoft's responsibilty to make their browser and font handle the standard, not mine to code in order to accomodate their substandard software by using a <font> tag to explicitly choose an appropriate font. Much the same can be said about your employer of course, but they aren't the only ones to buy Microsofts bullying tactics. BPJ 12:49, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

I would agree rather agree with Jan I. and use the Ćć, Śś etc. If the respective accented T and D do not exist, but can be created using Unicode, I buy them. IB - where new diacritics appears :) I do not use IE, only Opera or Firefox and if you want, I can provide you with Unicode fonts I use and have (Lucida and Arial). Jan II.

BTW is it your intention that ř/ŕ is preserved in Moravljanjec? It is de-palatalized to r in Slvanjec (and Slovak). No real problem as I keep it distinct down to the very end in the GMP-program. BPJ 15:18, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

That is certainly not bad idea to have Ŕ ŕ in Moravljanjec!! Jan II.

I really got to get the Slevan Grand Master Plan into human readable form -- including the planned changes. BPJ 11:36, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)

So the Slevanians would say it is a dialect of Slvanjec, and Moravians would oppose, right? Well, that proves that it is just a dialect of Wenedyk and that it should by no means be listed as a separate language! :)))

Okay, seriously now. If there's going to be an official fourth leg to our merry little family, then I'd like to know some specifics. Any text samples and the like? Cheers, IJzeren Jan 11:27, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

I would say, that Moravian differs from Slevanian significantly only in lexica (more Slavicised) and some late phonological changes (under Bohemian influence), the grammar differences could be negligible. Jan II. 9:59, 18 Aug 2005 (CEST)

And lack of one significant change, I would say: nasal-e becomes ä rather than ja as in standard Slvanjec. -- BPJ 19 Aug 2005

BTW the principal reason for the apparent lack of Slavic loans in Slvanjec is my ignorance of Slavic, in spite of having had one Polish-German-Pomeranian grandparent and one Ukrainian :(, so any help you can offer is very welcome! BTW check out http://www.melroch.se/conlang/slevan/slevan.php , but be warned, it doesn't work in Internet Exploder! BPJ 14:51, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Mouse

Hmmm, what is Slevanian "mouse", your slevaniser gave me plain _m_ after all final cleaups;) (Jan II)

MÚSCULUM > myskol, genitive mýskly. MÚREM would give **mýr, but that would be identical to "wall" (though not in inflection).

And what is the problem with homonymes? Aren't they natural? Jan II.

As long their meanings are far enough away from each other, there's nothing wrong with it. But hey, if you say "My wife is afraid of mýrs", or "Yesterday I've painted my white mýr grey", it should be clear what you mean, no? --IJzeren Jan 07:35, 23 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Don't use the fourth option for stress/length input (Long unstressed: á, short stressed: à, long stressed: â.) unless you are sure what you are doing! All the other three actually work the same, but I always mark lengths with acute. BTW strange and wrong things happen when jers and/or syllabic liquids cluster with each other. I'll try to fix that! BPJ 10:44, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

I have a good source slavic substrate for your use, just, tell me which word you would like take from Slavic and when (diachronically) and will have it. Jan II.

Ha, Wenedyk doesn't have that problem! :) We have murz, gen. murzy for "mouse" and mur, gen. muru for "wall"! --IJzeren Jan 05:53, 23 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Fotre Noster

Suggestion:
Fotre Noster

Fotre Noster, kvel jesty ja ćalov, si týv numja súcevecát.
Adveńa kralotate tyva. Si vác volútate tyva, kvomod ja ćalu i ja tera.
Prote noster kvotidzán dá nób odze.
I remete ďebety nostry kvomod nó remeťem ďébturev nostrov.
I ńe nó jadykasty ja ťatacune, mázs slóba nó da mál.
Kvonja ťev jé kralota i vila i klora ja sékly.
Amen.

This looks suspiciously like my old version in Slvanjec₂. Do you still have that text? I doubt I do! BTW the current version of Slvanjec is Slvanjec_3.5. I guess further (retrograde) change as I currently discuss on FrathWiki:Talk:Slevan would turn the version number to 4 -- BPJ 19 Aug 2005

You might be right, I just grabbed the Paternoster version in Slvanjec I have on computer and changed few words (Patre > Fotre, pane > prote, libera > slóba, hlura > klora, potesta > vila) and input consonantial diacritics.Jan II.

Yes, the Slevanians would say it is a dialect of Slvanjec, and Moravians would oppose is pretty much it. Jan II and I are going to work on the specifics. BPJ 08:23, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Nice! Now it's completely obvious that Moravljanjec is a dialect of Wenedyk, and that Moravlja ought to be incorporated by the RTC! :))) --IJzeren Jan 05:53, 23 Aug 2005 (PDT)

A phonological suggestion

Jan, as I said when we met I would like to have *ę become ä in Moravian. The result vould be for most but not all Slevanian jas to correspond to ä in Moravian. Perhaps in return *ě can become ja? BPJ 11:42, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)

You guys met?! I'm envious! ;) At least I want a full report! :)) --IJzeren Jan 12:08, 14 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Yes, Jan II and his wife are touring Sweden and Finland, and we sat on a pub for a couple of hours discussing IB, Nassian, Slvanjec, history in general and slavic historical phonology, and had some very expensive glasses of beer... BPJ 05:36, 15 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Spelling of the name

I changed the spelling to Moravľaňec (Moravljanjec) because ĭ palatalizes n before becoming e. BPJ 10:57, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)