File talk:Scandinavia-rank-insignias.png

As always, Great Work!! But I've been doing a bit of research into the subject myself, and there are some problems with the current scheme:

The Amphibious Corps:
I think by now, the coastal defence and naval infantry would have been combined into the amphibious corps — like Sweden has done *here*.

Rank Names:
Enlisted men from the amphibious corps and naval air corps are not "seamen". Denmark and Sweden *here* now uses branch neutral terminology. In Denmark we use (with my rough English translation in parenthesis):

• elev (recruit)
• konstabel (private/seaman/airman)
• overkonstabel (private/seaman/airman 1st class)
• specialist (specialist private/seaman/airman)

The same goes for NCOs. Instead of "leading seamen" and "quartermasters", the Danish navy now calls them "corporals" and "sergeants", just like in the army and airforce.

Also, "utskrevet" is not a rank. It just means conscripted. I don't think its necessary to indicate that.

I was wondering about what it meant. The norvegian (one which this is base) do make the distinction and so does other military forces. The reason is mostly one of prestige: "look at me, I *volunteered* to be in the army !" or one of pay grade/seniority. Of course, its up to you for SR. --203.164.54.137 16:36, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

I think the reason why this is not done in Denmark is because conscripts only train for four months, while volunteers stay longer. Thus, conscripts never really achieve a rank higher than recruit anyway. Another reason, if I have to be sarcastic, is because Denmark is the motherland of Jante's Law, where it would be sinful to be boastful. It's QSS that the SR reeks of Jante's Law mentality, so I don't think they'd make that distinction. ;)Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Clergy:
In the Danish military, the military clergy has its own insignia and rank system. See here for the Danish system. I think it would be nice to include something similar for the SR as well.

Based on what you said about the jante law, only 2 ranks would apply (no conscript chaplain) although considering the size of the SR you might need more.

Incidently, the danish military forces seem to be a bit fragmented, it also has separate ranks for the mechanics. Any other distinct branches you might think would fit in ? (for example: medical)--Marc Pasquin 07:26, 27 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Yes, you're right. Now, I'm not an expert on the subject, so I don't understand why it is necessary to use colour or separate ranks to differentiate between some branches. Wouldn't branch insignia be enough? Do you know if all navies are "fragmented" in this way? Boreanesia 02:18, 28 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Cuff Insignias:
In the 19th century, cuff/arm insignias were reserved for Scandinavian NCOs and where never used by the COs until around the turn of 20th century — likely due to British influence. Instead, epaulettes were reserved for COs and the highest ranking NCO.

Now since the SR is a fairly large naval power, there's a possibility that they'd prefer not to follow the British model with cuff insignias for COs.

Although remember that on IB, there is no british model so it might just be a few nations that came up independently with each its own distinct style (the reason why I used wavy instead of straight). There is even a reason why this could be: many armies use to show ranks by rings around the cuff but with changes in warfare, many put them up on their epaulette. for this reason, navy did not need to and kept the old style. Again, up to you. --203.164.54.137 16:36, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

By British, I meant the FK. That fact is, cuff insignias in the Danish/Norwegian forces were only used by the NCOs, and not the COs. Furthermore, (as I mentioned below) cuffs were generally pointed, and not wavy. So rings were not used, just buttons and chevrons that followed the contour of the cuffs. Now I suppose the SR navy could have turned both the pointed cuffs and the pointed chevrons into wavy ones, while the army retained the pointed ones. I kinda like that idea, now that you have explained it. By the end of the century, the chevrons and buttons would have become less conspicuous — the chevrons had shrunk in size, the buttons had become dots, and both were moved up towards the upper arm. So the upper arm insignias in your proposal for the SR Navy should consist of wavy chevrons rather than straight horizontal lines. Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Alternatively, if they do, then the shape of the cuff itself is wrong. Danish/Norwegian cuffs (which ought to be the model for the SR navy) were pointed. Insignias for NCOs were placed above these pointed cuffs and followed their contours such that they appeared as chevrons above the cuffs pointing up the sleeve. A brass button (or later in the century a pip or dot) was also used above the point as part of some insignias.

To try to illustrate, here are cuff insignias (in ASCII format) introduced by the Danish-Norwegian military during the Napoleonic wars. (The orientation of the chevron is such that the hand would be on the left and the elbow on the right):

vicecorporal/undercorporal         >·
corporal                           >>   
fourier/cornet                     >>·  
sergeant                           >>>
commandersergeant                  >>>·
overcommandersergeant/fahnjunker   >>>· (+ epaulettes of secondlieutenant)

Not all of the ranks above were used at the same time. Some ranks change names (e.g fourier to cornet). But the number of chevrons for the corresponding rank has always been the same. Private ranks never wore any insignias, but I'm sure that by the 20th century the above system could be extended for them.

The colour of the cuffs or the design on them used to indicate what regiment or branch the wearer belonged to and occassionally the rank. Cuff insignias themselves were always white.

the colour I chose were swedish colour pipping used by swedish forces in the early 19th century (except blue of course)--203.164.54.137 16:36, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

I see. Well, I've been trying to identify colour designations that were common throughout Scandinavia *here* around 1809 — the year the SR was formed. Blue collars and cuffs appear to be common for the armies, while black, however, was used by rangers, sharpshooters, grenadiers, and guide officers. Red collars and cuffs were used by the Danish/Norwegian navy, which, like I said, ought to be the model for the SR navy. This is precisely the sort of collar and cuff colour designation I used in my proposal below. Rangers, sharpshooter, and grenadiers fall under "special forces". Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

---

Now, allow me to suggest an alternative, applicable to both the SR army and navy, based on what I mentioned above and what else I know about the Scandinavian military *here* during the 19th century. But you are obviously more in the know about these things than me, so feel free to comment:

Parade uniform colours:

Army              red coat and blue pants
Navy              blue coat and pants
Special forces*   green coat and grey pants

*for both the army and the navy.

Something maybe to add: 19th century swedish naval infantry wore army style uniform but in dark blue with a pit helmet that replaced the spike with a ball. this could be used for the amphibious force.

Yes, this would fall under "blue coat and pants" above.

I would, however, like to add the royal life guards, who would wear yellow coat and pants. Their collars and cuffs are red. Thus, the life guards are in the colours of the royal house of Oldenburg. (This was the colour combination used around 1809. The red and blue uniform of current Danish life guards *here* was introduced in the mid 19th century). Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Collar and cuff colours (with branch insignias to be placed on the cuffs and collars themselves, although generals and admirals have yellow austrian knots instead):

Army               blue
Guide corps*       black (+ a hat with a red-over-yellow plume)
Navy               red
Special forces**   black

*consists of specially chosen NCOs and junior COs that were trained for staff duty service.
**for both the army and the navy.

due to its possible use by air branches, maybe army could use yellow, green or beige instead ?--203.164.54.137 17:26, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Well, like I said, blue was commonly used by the armies of Scandinavia around 1809. I imagine that this would become tradition in the SR. Couldn't the air branches be indicated by branch insignia rather than colour? Thus, blue collars and cuffs with air branch insignias would mean Army Air Corps, while red collars and cuffs with air branch insignias would mean Navy Air Corps. If not, then I suggest grey for the air branches. Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

blue-grey was the colour of the first finish airforce uniform so that could fit: pale blue-grey = airforce, darker bright blue = army.--Marc Pasquin 07:26, 27 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Yes, that would certainly work. But I still don't understand why a distinct colour for the air branch is necessary. Wouldn't the branch insignia be enough? Boreanesia 02:18, 28 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Cuff insignias (for enlisted ranks, NCOs, and cadets only):

Recrut                        none
Menig                         ·
Overmenig                     >
Specialiſt                    >·
Underbefælingscadet           >:
Corporal                      >>
Fourrier                      >>·
Sergeant/Qvartermeſter        >>>
Fanjunker/Flagqvartermeſter   >>>·
Befælingscadet                >>>:

any idea what the "dot" would look like ? what's on the SR COA by the way ?--203.164.54.137 17:26, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Do you mean "dot" or "pip"? By now, the dot is just a simple dot, with the same diameter as the chevrons are thick. The pips, used on the COs' epaulettes and shoulder straps, are rosettes. The small pip has no petals, medium pips have four petals, and large pips have six petals each. For examples, check this and especially this out — uniforms and insignias of the Danish army and navy anno 1911. It's a bit different from my proposal, but similar nonetheless. The army coat by then became blue with red pipping instead of being red overall (only the royal life guards use red in parade), but the cuffs were still blue and pointed for the army. Cuff insignias with austrian knots had also been designed for army COs as well, instead of being reserved for the enlisted, NCOs, and cadet ranks only. I suppose that by the 20th century the SR could also have developed cuff insignias for COs along similar lines as well. But I'm not sure how well austrian knots will go with wavy cuffs and chevrons. Perhaps the navy could use a loop instead, similar to the one many navies *here* use. Besides, austrian knots are an army thing.

The small SR COA is a crowned shield quartered by the cross of Dannebrog; Denmark in the first quarter, Sweden in the second, Norway on the third, and Monland on the fourth. On the shield base is Gadangmeland. Over the cross of Dannebrog is an escutcheon parted per pale; Schleswig on the left, and Holstein on the right. Over this is another escutcheon with Oldenburg. The arms of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Schleswig, Holstein, and Oldenburg are the same as *here*. Monland is a red field with a golden Hamsa (a duck with a crest down the neck and a feathery tail). Gadangmeland is a golden field with a palewise semy of red ants. Boreanesia 02:18, 26 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Clergy:

Theolog     voided passion cross
Fæltpræſt   passion cross
Fæltprovſt  encircled passion cross

Epaulettes (for COs' parade uniforms, which always include a golden sash with crimson red stripes around the waist):

Fænrik                               fringeless silver epaulette with one gold pip
Lieutenant                           fringeless silver epaulette with two gold pips
Capitain/Capitainlieutenant          fringeless silver epaulette with three gold pips
Major/Orlogscapitain                 fringed silver epaulette with one gold pip
Oberſtlieutenant/Comandeurcapitain   fringed silver epaulette with two gold pips
Oberſt/Comandeur                     fringed silver epaulette with three gold pips
Generalmajor/Contreadmiral           fringed gold epaulette with one silver pip
Generallieutenant/Viceadmiral        fringed gold epaulette with two silver pips
General/Admiral                      fringed gold epaulette with three silver pips
Riksmarſk/Riksadmiral                fringed gold epaulette with a crown and three silver pips

Collar and shoulder strap insignias (for COs' field uniforms):

Fænrik                               one small pip
Lieutenant                           two small pips
Capitain/Capitainlieutenant          three small pips
Major/Orlogscapitain                 one medium pip
Oberſtlieutenant/Comandeurcapitain   two medium pips
Oberſt/Comandeur                     three medium pips
Generalmajor/Contreadmiral           one large pip 
Generallieutenant/Viceadmiral        two large pips
General/Admiral                      three large pips
Riksmarſk/Riksadmiral                a crown and three large pips

Boreanesia 08:24, 25 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Air force and fragmentation

Its starting to get confusing so I answered here:

Q: Do you know if all navies are "fragmented" in this way? Boreanesia 02:18, 28 Aug 2005 (PDT)

It depend on countries, some have highly amalgamated military forces with the navy being only an "element" (Canada for example) and non-frontline duties are performed by organisations whose personnel are made up of members from all elements. For example: the catering branch could be headed by a commodore whose second-in-command is an army major.

In other countries, the navy, army and airforces are completely separate forces and non-frontline duties might be performed by distinct entities. Belgium for example have chaplains and medical staff which belong to no hierarchy but their own.

Finaly, some will have "career path" within each forces (and this seem to be the case) where one decide early on which one he will follow. The idea is to have more specialised personnel instead of all-purpose ones. One example is the british airforce which, shortly after its creation, decided to create two sets of ranks for non-officers depending if they were groundcrews (like mechanics) or aircrews (like airplane's machinegun operators).

Which approach is adopted pretty much depend on factors such as personnel size, length of duty of an individual and purpose/image of the armed forces (profesional career vs canon fodder).

Q: But I still don't understand why a distinct colour for the air branch is necessary. Wouldn't the branch insignia be enough? Boreanesia 02:18, 28 Aug 2005 (PDT)

As the airforces became less of a novelty and actualy became involved in fighting (instead of just being observer), they came to adopt a bit of an elite status and with technology evolving, it also required a more specialised personnel. This eventualy lead to the airforce in many countries becoming a separate entity with its own traditions (including uniforms). To prevent encroachment, countries that have (in addition to an airforce) retained air support branches tend to be careful to show these as a fully integrated and rarely have any major uniform distinction. Basicaly, what they are showing is that the naval aviator is not an airforce man serving on a ship, he's a seaman that fly.

In those countries where airbranches never cut loose, there was still a need to recognise their specific needs and this lead to semi-autonomous hierarchies and organisation with the secondary result of uniform distinction. In most cases this meant a uniform which was identical to the rest (including insignias) save for the colour of the fabric used or a uniform of the same fabric but with different colour distinction. In this case, the message is more: "I am part of the navy but I won't give order to or receive order from another branch".

This being your creation you are free to do as you please but I can't think of any example from *here* where a country's airforce did not fall in some way into one of the preceeding categories. In addition, the fact that the former coastal defense and naval infantry branches ended up forming a distinct entity would probably indicate that the airforce of the SR is a separate force to or at least on the way to being one. If thats the case, they could use the same system but with the bars in a different shape as happened in the UK *here* (don't pay attention to the colours):

---

Yes indeed. I did a search on the net and found that the Swedish amphibious corps, though still part of the Swedish navy, does indeed have rank insignias for COs with a different shape than that used in the naval fleet. However, the colours and the rank insignias for enlisted men are identical. Branch insignias are used instead. Perhaps we could follow this model for the SR's naval air branch?

In the meantime, armed with some more knowledge about all this, I'll try to work on preparing images of my proposal. As I really don't have the same graphics capability as you have, please bare with me. Perhaps you could spruce it up once I've loaded it or once you have verified it as realistic.

BTW, not to pressure you or anything, but have you done some more work on the Filipino uniforms?

Boreanesia 05:24, 30 Aug 2005 (PDT)