Antisemitism
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Jan van Steenbergen,
8271
- I'm not trying to advocate the use of "Nordic" here, but don't forget that there has been no Hitler and no national-socialism in IB. I admit that the term Nordic in a racial connotation was probably an invention of earlier race theorists and not of the nazis, but I'm sure its negative connotation *here* is the result of Hitler and the nazi ideology being discredited forever.
- As a less pleasant side-effect of Hitler's non-existence in IB, the postwar taboo on antisemitism and theories about aryan supremacy won't exist either.
Kristian Jensen, 8319
> As a less pleasant side-effect of Hitler's non-existence in IB, the postwar taboo on antisemitism and theories about aryan supremacy won't exist either.
- That's true. In fact, I have asked myself how that would affect Scandinavia *there*. Would Scandinavians become racial bigots *there*? Perhaps, but certainly not to the same extent as the Nazists *here*. I think any racial chauvanism that they might have would at most resemble British racial chauvanism *here* during the Victorian era - that is, they would at most have a paternalistic relationship towards people they consider inferior. Britain and Denmark-Norway were afterall the first countries to ban the slave trade.
Jan van Steenbergen, 20045
> This leads me to wonder to myself the position of this in IB. Were there ever such movements? It's only been recently that it was discovered how terrible the anti-semitic sentiment ran in the 1920's, 30's and 40's.
- Remember that anti-semitism was by no means an invention of Hitler; it has a long history (going back to the early history of Judaism itself), and in the 19th century it was a rather common phenomenon in Europe.
- So, what happened *there*?
- First of all, I seriously doubt in how far the existence of Judea or Mueva Sefarad as independent states makes things significantly better for the Jews who still lived in Europe. Of course, if things got really bad, they had the option to leave. But I doubt very much whether their governments had the power to protect the Jews in, say, Russia.
- Secondly, as Steg said, there was no German defeat in GW1, no subsequent crisis, no Hitler, and no holocaust. But if you ask me, that does not mean that there was no anti-semitism whatsoever. My guess is that it simply wasn't and isn't much of an issue for most people.
- A side-effect is indeed that today's taboo on anti-semitism (which ís a direct result of Hitler and the holocaust) doesn't exist there either. As I said, it's probably not really an issue, but I suspect those to whom it is one can ventilate their opinions rather freely.
- And then we have the SNOR. We have all reasons to believe that antisemitism played a significant role in the snorist ideology. Admiral Kolchak (*here* and *there*) was an ardent antisemite himself, and so where many if not most of his associates. Jews in the Russian Empire had quite a hard time, even more so than *here* in the Soviet Union. Many of them undoubtedly left the country in those years to the RTC, Judea or MS.
- A lot of Jews live in the RTC. The state itself is, and has always been, very tolerant against religious minorities, and so the Jews enjoyed the same rights as other citizens. That does definitely not mean that there is no anti-semitism; especially among nationalists it is a rather common phenomenon, but it should be said that they don't enjoy much support from the population. There are even small nazi-like groups, but they are too marginal to mention them at all.
BPJ, 20064
- As for Slevania I don't know if the Jews have fared any worse there than elsewhere in IB, but probably not any better either, especially under the FNLS's SNORist régime. The real counterpart of antisemitism in Slevania is _anticiganism_: alas the Roma/Gypsies/Cigany are traditionally the target of gross prejudice and oppression, which in FNLS times was openly state-supported and stopped short only of genocide -- mainly because it was cheaper and easier to make the Cigany leave for the RTC. After the fall of the FNLS anticiganism is officially forbidden in the constitution, all nations being granted equal rights as citizens, and the right to their culture and their language (though all must learn Slvanjec at school). The Roma now even have their own political party, as have the other minorities(1). There is however some pressure against nomadism and strong pressure for sending Roma children to Slevan-majority schools, which the Roma perceive as covert oppression, and in the general populace prejudice is still deep-roted among both groups.
- (1) The Hungarians even have *two* parties, one of which is nationalist and wants to change the borders with Hungary.
Carlos Thompson, 22066
> If i remember correctly, Great War I was fought to a sort of standstill, so Germany didn't lose and wasn't punished. Therefore, their economy didn't fall apart and they didn't need scapegoats to blame anything on. Therefore, no Nazis and no WWII genocide attempts.
- Which, BTW, means that anti-semitism is a more present sentiment. The Nazis and the holocaust were so terrible *here* that it practically stoped anti-semitism. Now *here* there is some kind of anti-Israelism which is a complete diferent lot.
- *There* Judea has existed since ancient times, so no "Anti-Israelism" should exist, on the other hand...
Marc Pasquin, 20081
- just to add my twopence for my parts of the world.
- The Intendancy: A bit of latent antisemitism within the most traditionalist part of the population (fundamentalist members of the clergy as well as zouaves companies) but it is officialy illegal.
- It comes as a surprise to many that judaism is the only religion outside of catholicism that has the right within New-Francy to keep registry (power of justice of peace for birth, marriage, death, etc...). This came about in the 19th century after the normalisation of borders between NF and MS. The final borders included a few jewish villages on the neofrancian side and to facilitate the work of local government, the right was extendanted to them.
- Australasia: I doubt there would be any institutionalised discrimination but then again, I'm not sure how much of a jewish there would be *there*.
Steg Belsky, 20085
> Which, BTW, means that anti-semitism is a more present sentiment. The Nazis and the holocaust were so terrible *here* that it practically stoped anti-semitism. Now *here* there is some kind of anti-Israelism which is a complete diferent lot.
> *There* Judea has existed since ancient times, so no "Anti-Israelism" should exist, on the other hand...
- Well, i wouldn't say that anti-Israelism and antisemitism are *completely* different, there are after all a lot of people out there who overlap between the two quite a bit.
- *There*, i'm not so sure that it wouldn't exist. There's no Arab-Israeli conflict, as such, but i'm pretty sure that there would be some Christians in the world who object to the existence of an independent Jewish state - especially in the Holy Land - for theological reasons, as well as some Muslims (of the Saudi-Sanjaki type, for instance) who would oppose the existence of any non-Muslim state on land that at any time was under Islamic rule; that would be problematic not only for Judea, but also for Lebanon (with it's Druze-led, Europe-leaning multi-religious coalition government), and the Persian Zoroastrians.
- Mueva Sefarad shouldn't have to worry that much, since they're not a Jewish state, just a state (err... province) with majority Jewish demographics and hence a mostly Jewish-based dominant culture. However, that reality doesn't stop Muevasefaradí movie producers from imagining up secret societies of vengeful Iberian inquisitors for the action hero of the year to vanquish with typical MS 'war-painted ninja' military tactics! ;)
Carlos Thompson, 20108
> > What happened *there*? If there wasn't the same sentiment, why not? Just wondering. :)
>
> I suppose one would first need to separate the two. Nazism - an ideology that emphasizes on racism, male strength, tribute to youth and extremely belligerent, makes me believe that had a place *there*. Not as a national socialist party in definition, but with other names (e.g. SNOR, the Castillian state, Helvetia etc.)
- The Castilian State (European Castile 1936--65) had indeed some anti-semitic elements, but this was rather a part of a whole ideology than a key-point of that ideology. First, anti-semitism was a common theme in Europe back then, as well as hate against gypsies and other minorities. The Falangist ideology was a nationalistic one, with a tight definition of what a propper Castilian should be: Roman Catholic with roots in the Castilian land (even if born in the Americas). On the other hand, there were few Jews in Castile for begin with, so most of the hate was against gypsies.
- The Castilian State did recognized Judea and Mueva Sefarad as states (an independent one and part of the NAL, respectively) and did care little for Jews outside Castilian territory. There were no official persecution against Jews (or Gipsies, for that matter), but authorities did very little to protect these minorities against mobs or discrimination, and they were systematically refused from public administration.
- The Kingdom of Castile and Leon in the same period was much more tolerant, but no particularly friendly to Jews, either. No laws preventing jews or other minorities to enter public administration and Jews were protected by authorities just as any other citizen. ...well, almost. José in the street, however, would probably look down to Jews, Gipsies, or any other minority not seen as proper subjects of the Castilian Kingdom.
- Today, the point of view of the Kingdom is the official one: there are not official nationalities, races or religions, nor banned ones. People attitudes vary, however, between friendly, to just tolerant, to some hate. You can easily find newspapers edited from hate groups, mainly in European Castile, but authorities keep an eye on them to prevent this groups crossing the line between free-speech and hate action. (There are also pro-Jew press)
- Given the increasing number of muslims living today in Castile, most hate is diverted against Muslims today than against Jews or Gipsies.
Marc Pasquin, 21902
> Bohemian Kingdom? ;) One of my thoughts was, that BK is Swiss of *there*; secretive, neutral, not engaged in European matters much, rich (oh, rich) and full of clever Jewish bankers.
- I remember we started to discuss stereotypes on IB a while back. Was anything reached regarding those that apply to jews *there* ? As there was no holocaust, antisemitism might still be considered socialy acceptable in some part but on the other hand, the fact that you had a few jewish state might take away some of the prejudice since jews abroad might be seen in the same way as other "immigrants" or minority groups (think of all the Little Italies, Chinatowns and Greek neighbourhoods *here*)
Padraic Brown, 30457
>Well, I'm not convinced that there wouldn't've been some kind of anti-semetic pogroms in Germany even without Hitler. Maybe not an organized Holocaust, though.
>As for the swastika and eagle? I dunno. I don't know that you should >necessarily worry about political correctness, though. It's not like in >that universe there'd be any negative connotations!
- I got dinged (very gently, mind) in the Adolf Hitler article for his marriage to a Jew. Never let it be said I let PC get in the way!
- I agree 100% that antisemitism in Germany was not invented by Hitler. I doubt it was even invented by Luther, but he certainly did a good job of advertising it! Whoever invented it and however it's been allowed to creep through history, I'm sure 20th century Germany would see its share of antisemitic activity. Though as you say sans the official pogroms and holocaust.
- Eagle and iron cross are pretty solid German symbols. Even if the swastika gets used in some capacity in the conculture in question, it might not see the same ubiquitious use as in Nazi Germany.
Ben Karnell, 30468
> I agree 100% that antisemitism in Germany was not invented by Hitler. I doubt it was even invented by Luther, but he certainly did a good job of advertising it! Whoever invented it and however it's been allowed to creep through history, I'm sure 20th century Germany would see its share of antisemitic activity. Though as you say sans the official pogroms and holocaust.
- Thankfully, those parts were left out of the catechism. But definitely: if antisemitism hadn't been rampant in modern-era Germany, "Die Juden und Ihre Lügen" would have died, no doubt.
> Eagle and iron cross are pretty solid German symbols. Even if the swastika gets used in some capacity in the conculture in question, it might not see the same ubiquitious use as in Nazi Germany.
- Even the modern BRD still uses an eagle in its coat of arms, doesn't it? And the modern BRD does everything it can to distance itself from its nationalistic past. (The German bobsled at Torino had a tiny German flag... crossed with an Italian one.) So I think the eagle can be considered "safe".
Padraic Brown, 31183
> Right. I was thinking, how did the German Socialist Workers Party get so popular?
- A major reason was because the US and the Allies were way too hard on Germany after WWI -- look up "reparations". Basically, Germany couldn't afford to pay its war debt, wasn't allowed to have an army and was entirely humiliated. There was also the Depression (it affected Germany as well and US) and the German economy was much worse off than ours.
- People got tired of it. Hitler used popular sentiment and a ***VERY*** strong oratory skillset to propel his party to power, and himself to supreme leadership.
- If your Hellenic Emperor is anything like Hitler (for rhetoric and oratory, not for idiotic antisemitism!), I have no doubt he could do with Greece just about anything he wanted.
Padraic Brown, 33689
- We haven't really had much discussion at all on matters pertaining to Judea, antisemitism, etc. One might suspect that relations between the NAL and Judea are okeh, after all both share a Jewish population.
