Hi Benct, I have now gathered enough onomatopoetic resources on origin of place-names in Slovakia, that after holidays (mid of August), I can start to write down all the available *here's* etymologies for you to work on Slevanian. And more! Since July 12 2005 I am for three or five days in Göteborg! ;)) Jan II. 010705 0752 CEST
- Wow, we definitely have to meet! Please mail me at my usual address (melroch at m****ch.se) and I'll mail you my phone number. BPJ 03:59, 4 Jul 2005 (PDT)
moravian national uprise
Hi Benct, I have been thinking little bit about the awakening of Moravians in Bohemian Kingdom. There was/is not any nationalism in BK, since to be Bohemian is not understood as nationality, but rather as a loyalty to the House of Habsburg. The only sharp crystallised problem is between diminishing Czechs and Bohemians, which bitterness started already at the end of XVIII. century as a result of "recollection of glorious times" between educated Czechs. After revolutionary years 1848+, the national feeling rose little bit also among other national minorities, namely Sorbs (Domowina 1903), Silesians (Livra Slezna 1899) and also Moravians (Partít Nacunale Moravľe 1898). I have adopted five *here* Moravian patriots to serve also *there*:
- Very good, but wére there any revolutionary years 1848+ in IB?
- BTW in the latest GMP NÁTIÓNÁLEM becomes nocunálj, or perhaps nacunálj if it is a semi-learned word. I went back on the -e endings in the 3. declension since I thought they looked too Italian, but it is possible that some dialect has them -- perhaps Moravian?
- I have rather problems to locate the accent in Latin, so my creations even using your script where just veeeery approximate ;) For the terminal -e; yes!
- It is not the accent that needs to be indicated, but every vowel length, what the Latin dictionary indicates with macrons (āēīōū), of which there may be several in a word and which may or may not be stressed. I just choose the acute accent to indicate length because (1) I needed a character that is in Latin-1, (2) The acute is a familiar length mark to me from several "Old" languages and Quenya, and (3) it is easy to type on my keyboard. I guess most of these criteria apply to you as well. It is also possible to indicate length with circumflexes, doubled vowels or a following colon (nátiónem, nâtiônem, naatioonem, na:tio:nem). BPJ 06:13, 8 December 2005 (PST)
Julius Stach aka Jol Stáč 1768 - 1836 (Iulius Stachys, *here* Václac Stach) - professor of theology by archbishopric in Olmütz, inspired by works of Dobrowski on Czech, he tried to do the same for Moravian. He was educated in Latin quite well and he was to investigate the connection of Moravian to classical Latin. As a theologist, he used several anonymous catechisms to map the language; he firstly recognosed differences between Olmucian and Moravian as distinct languages. He understood Moravian and Slevanian to be one language: Moravian introduced among Hungarians from west. His major work Vox de utilis linguae Moravicae (Remarks on use of Moravian language) was issued 1829.
Olmucian and Moravian as distinct languages
- Olmucian and Moravian as distinct languages was news to me! Do you care to elaborate? Perhaps on Talk:Moravljanjec?
- We spoke about it long time ago (Olomoucian - ulimútan). Olomoucian is strongly Czechisiced Moravian. *Here*, the major differences between Czech and Hanak/Olomoucian: ou > ó, ij,ej > ää, ý > ää, u > o, term. -y > -ä, term. -í > ää, i > ä, prostetic init. h-, tendency to use only voiced consonants. See http://www.olomouc.com/hanactina/. We somehow came to conclusion that few changes will be the same, few will be in an opposite way for Slevan > Ulimutan. But no conclusions were done.
- So "standard" Moravian *here* is much closer to standard Slovak than Hanak/Olomoucian is, right? BTW I read in one of my library books that Eastern and Western Slovak unlike Central Slovak have e as reflex of both ь and ъ, which might be a nice feature to have to distinguish Moravljanec from Slvanjec.
- The situation is quite complex *here*. In fact, there are *here* four dialects spoken in Moravia: slezský/laššký//Lachian - quite close to Polish (*there* Fasärfendiš), středomoravský/hanácký//Hanak - the most modern dialect of Czech (by means of the most complete phono-changes; *there* Moravľańec) and valaššký/moravskoslovácký//Moravo-Slovak + interdialect on border of Bohemia and Moravia, which is in sound more closer to Bohemian Czech. There is nothing like "standard" Moravian *here*, the majority of speakers speaks Hanak (close to one half), the next one is Moravo-Slovak, the smallest is Lachian. Moreover, Hanak is split into "Olomoucian" and "Brnian", where the latter is more germanised in lexicum and less phonologically developed (voc. strýci! UNCLE! > ol. stréco!, br. strécu!; -i > -u > -o / nom. liška FOX > ol. läška, br. lëška; i > ë [ei]> ä [ae]).
- I would like to keep it simplier: Moravian is the main dialect, Olomoucian is interdialekt between Moravian and Bohemian, punctum. There is approx. one third to two fifths of speakers of Moravľańec than of Hanak+Moravo-Slovak *here*.
- The standard Slvanjek form of JÚLIUS is Ljúlj although thàt occurs only as a month name. The personal name is Júlj with Ljuljol as nickname (shared with Ljulján/Julján, which is by far commoner as a first name).
- The names might be just local, like _Jol_ instead of Slevan _Júlj_.
Alojs Šempär aka Lajš Šaper 1807 - 1882 (Aloisius Semper, *here* Alois Vojtěch Šembera) - philologist, historian, not of Moravian origin, but keen propagator of Moravia, heritage of Roman Era. Criticist of Pavel Mrác, he accused him of "breaking the Moravian unity" by introducing slvanjec. He also fought polution of Moravian with Venedian in a name of diversity, on the other hand, he did not recognised Olmucian. Inconsistent and agile, he provoced, but failed to cross his shade. He caused that the idea of Moravian emancipation fell asleep for few decades.
- I thought we had decided that *eN becomes ja in Slvanjek but ä or e in Moravian, or was that just in Olmucian? Anyway this difference would be a nice touch.
- BTW Mrác did not introduce Slvanjek. The people were called Slvany considerably earlier, adopted from Wenedyk and replacing Labany (ALBÁNI used in distinction to Njehry scil. "Gypsies"). Before that they called themselves simply Rumany, which however semi-clashed with the Gypsies' self-designation.
- The problem with Mr.Mrác for Mr.Šaper was, that Mrác claimed the origin of the language outside of Moravia. Mr.Šaper thought, that Roman ideas were spread eastwards, from more civilised Moravians to Slevans. In fact, it was opposite way around, because Slavic Moravians in 8th cc EC pushed them out and they came later in 10th cc EC back.
- Yes it is IMHO necessary in order to explain the existence of Czech and the South Slavic languages *there* that sometime between the Romans and the Magyars the Pannonian plain, Moravia and Bohemia were invaded by Slavs -- OTOH it is unimportant if it happened at the same time as the Avar invasion or after it. FWIW the Lombards passed through Pannonia too. The most likely course of events is that Slevania too was under Avar and Slavic overlordship for a while (Kocel and friends/foes).
- I intensivelly discuss this topic with one of our experts on Roman Empire on territory of Moravia, Dr.Šedo. Let us assume, that on a territory of West Slovakia and Central+South Moravia Romans found province Marcomania 175 EC. I was told that it could last till 441 EC, when Attila the Hun broke the limes and destroyed the province. But romanised population hold on in slavery till Attila's death and then they rebelled with Langobards against his successor Ernakh 454 EC. Langobards went west and then came Slavs through Poland in ca 500 EC. They moved west (future Sorbians, Obodrits, Drevians) and through Porta Moravica (river Morahwa/Morava) they went south to Bohemia/Moravia (future Czechs, Moravians). Second line of Slavs went through Pannonia, Austria as *here*. The Rumány were surrounded first, but then when Moravian Empire pressed them, they migrate slowly northwards and became Veneds after ca 800 EC as those who stayed became Slvanians. Slvanians in Slvana migrate then westwards and became Moravians around 11th cc. Your thoughts? I will announce this discussion to Jan I. too. Jan II. 00:55, 13 December 2005 (PST)
- I think Jan I's idea is that part of southern Poland also was Romanized -- in fact I think he says so on his page, so it's QSS. This leaves only the eastern route through Pannonia open for the Slavs, unless we assume that they passed through one Roman area closer to their original home without affecting it very much and then settled in Pannonia and affected that area rather more. Not that it is all that improbable, seing that it resembles what probably happened with Rumania *here*. I agree that *here* eastern Poland was part of the Slavic Heimat, but I have difficulties to see how that could be *there*, or at least *there* the Slavic heimat was mostly Ukraine, and a smaller bit of Poland. BTW how do the Avars fit in your scenario? Perhaps they were the ones who drove the Pannonian Romans north? May this have caused the westerly Slavs to move south-west towards Bohemia? BPJ 06:41, 14 December 2005 (PST)
- What does "failed to cross his shade" mean? Is it a Czech idiom?
- Genau. It means, he never realised that truth is out there, not in his arbitrary constructions.
Kéork Máhen aka Žárž Móń 1882 – 1939 (suicide) (Gregorius Magnus; *here* Jiří Mahen) - formerly revolutionary poet, anarcho-socialist, who in an age around 35 fell in love to Moravian country side and turned to write poems and novels about Moravia. He also introduced Moravian orthography based on Bohemian, totally ignoring Mrác. He also introduced a literary standard, based on a language around his native village (Vúžet, Fsetin, Vsetín). He commited suicide after German occupation.
- Gregorius is simply Gregór in Slvanjek. As a rule first names don't follow the rules! :) Zsórzs exists for Georgius.
- Máhen wasn't the only one to ignore Mrác's orthography. So did Mark Urelj, Mrac's own nephew Anton (who advocated +j for palatalization in all cases including cj sj zj) and the many who used a Hungarian-derived orthography (in Catholic and Protestant versions at that! :)
- Come to that the modern orthography as adopted by the Slvanjek printers' guild ignored Pavel Mrác too. They took some features from Wenedyk orthography, some from Hungarian and some from Anton Mrác.
Tómas Špékal aka Tomo Spékla 1882 - 1928 (suicide) (Tomas Speculus; *here* Rudolf Těsnohlídek) - Máhen's coeval and friend, who followed him in an effort to elevate Moravian among the languages of the world literature. He wrote famous novel Fox Smarty (Vlpékla Jajola < Vulpecula Agila) set of stories about the domesticated fox. He used it to depict the beauties of Moravia and adore the rural life. Although his stories are idylic, his life was not, as a result of unfortunate end of his wedlock he commited suicide 1928.
- AGILIS becomes jajol in both masculine and feminine since it is 3. declension! :)
- I made it more Moravian, ie. gender specific :p
- In that case it should be jajla as the o in jajol is purely epenthetic, which Slvanjek inserts to avoid final syllabic liquids. I read somewhere that some Slavic language *here* does that and thought it looked nice.
Józef Auperk aka Jože Vohoter 1861 - 1940 (Josephus Fugator; *here* Joža Úprka) - he was called "Mirror of Moravia", painter, who spent all his life depicting life of common people in Moravian village. He was known for rich coloured paintings, especially toned with cinnabar. His pictures were popular also abroad. Rumours appeared, that when well-known French painter Roden (sp??) saw his pictures at exhibition in Paris he thought they are from Italy; that linked Moravia to their Roman ancestors. Vohoter was then celebrated as reviver of the old Roman culture. His most famous paintings are: Jecvetót ry (Equitatus regum; Ride of kings), Pareher ja Súc Útń (Pilgramage to St.Antony).
- EQUITÁTUS looks wáy too Classical. Something like CABALLÁTICUM > kobolatjec would be more fitting.
- Ry is a funny form! Is it a Moravianism or something weird my program came up with? The standard word for "king" is rej, with genitive pl. the same or possibly reji if I implement the changes suggested by Jan I.
- Might be Moravian, might be not, but in fact it is a result of my struggle with your script and my ignorance in matters of Romance languages :)
- I still have difficulties to see how the program may have come up with that form.
- The French painter is Rodin -- have you got that story somewhere or did you invent it?BPJ 00:22, 23 November 2005 (PST)
- This story is half-real. August Rodin was visiting Moravia *here* in 1912 and he met Joža Úprka and made exactly the same conclusion as descibed above. The journalists who reported the meeting said, that Rodin was quite shocked realising it. -- Jan II.
- As it stands these names are a bit peculiar as Slvanjek names. Last names are usually Roman emperors' or early saints' names changed according to the GMP, while first names were borrowed directly from Latin or other languages. If these are artists' pseudonyms, or borrowed from other languages it is of course OK! BPJ 09:59, 22 November 2005 (PST)
Slvanjek/Moravljanjec language differences
We now have three candidates for Moravljanjec phonological features setting it apart from Slvanjek:
- Final short Ĕ remains as e rather than become weak ь .
- *ę becomes ä rather than ja, at least in some positions.
- Both ь and ъ become e when strong (unlike Slvanjek where ь > e and ъ > o).
What do you think about these? BPJ 05:11, 12 December 2005 (PST)
- As far as I do know only fuzzily the GMP of Slevan, I cannot do more than to say: well, if it suits you, it suits me. I can just enter the Moravľańec constuction by means of inspiration and infos on realia *here*, but said-but-true, my knowledge of Romance langs is asymptotically reaching zero. Jan II. 00:11, 13 December 2005 (PST)
Re: vocalic changes questions
In connection with this there is something I've been meaning to ask you (or perhaps your wife! : I understand that in Czech there is a distinction between /t;/d;/n;/ (palatalized and /t/d/n/ (unpalatalized) before /e/. I guess that is depending on which of *e/*ě/*ь the /e/ comes from, but which are the conditions?
- Let me define some abbrevs: ECSL (early common Slavic), CCSL (classical common Slavic aka church Slavic) and OCz (old Czech). They follow each other: ECSL >ca 5th cc EC> CCSL >ca 11th cc EC> OCz. The Slavs came to central Europe to meet Romanic local population already "speaking" CCSL.
- The change you've asked about seems to have a simple rule: short CCSL _e_ stems only in a short ECSL _e_ (*ě).
- The CCSL _ě_ (yat') has its stem in long ECSL _e_ (*ē), and short ECSL diphthongs _ai_, _oi_.
- In OCz, new short _e_ is a result of depalatalisation of CCSL _ě_ (yat'); there where 4 (!) depalatalisations in OCz and the rules are little bit longish, but I can provide them to you if interested.
- I found that in Slovak things are quite easier: all of *e/*ě (jat')/*ь become e except that the two latter when long become ie. I don't know what path to take in Slvanjek yet.
Also I understand that *ě in Czech sometimes becomes /i/ and sometimes /e/. What are the conditions for that? (I now have *ě > je in Slv., getting way too many je's for my taste, so I'm seeking a way to get rid of some!
- I cannot recognize if *ě is _e+caron_ (yat') or _e+breve_ (short _e_). So I will give you two possibilities ;)
- I meant jat'.
- Lo primero (e+breve) - ECSL short _e_ (*ĕ) never became anything else than short CCSL _e_, neither in OCz. But, ECSL long _e_ (*ē) became in terminal position short CCSL _i_. To complete the info, ECSL long _e_ (*ē) after ž,š,č,j became short CCSL _a_ and in other cases CCSL _ě_ (yat').
- Lo segundo (e+caron) - only long CCSL yat' (*ě’) became long OCz _i_ (í), whereas short CCSL yat' became short OCz _e_ as a depalatalisation result (see above), some short CCSL yat' remained in OCz.
- So as I see it I have three choices for long jat', viz. é/je/í, though I'm growing quite annoyed with je as a graphical shape everywhere! It looks like Swedish popular transcription of Russian!
BTW I'll probably decide that -ĭkŭ- is a diminutive ending, and maybe will change the name of the language to _Slvanjeský_. What do you think?
- Suffix _-ikъ_ (never with initial soft jer, only with _i_) was in CCSL format for either _bearer of a property_ or _diminutive_. Suits perfectly your game ;)
- The Romance adjectival suffix begins with a short ĭ. Do you really think "bearer of property" fits for the name of a language?
- Yes, it fits, IMHO. Jan II. 00:05, 13 December 2005 (PST)
- I hope, I expressed myself in a comprehensive way... -- Jan II.
- It's OK! :) -- BPJ 05:25, 12 December 2005 (PST)
Hej! :-) I'm wondering if possibly you can help suggesting suitable names for pages describing the different Indian countries? What would you say is the best way to transcribe the special caracters using regular latin ones? RoMex 16:31, 31 December 2005 (PST)
- My general policy is to simply omit all diacritics, including replacing þ with t and ð with d. Kristian differs on this point, but I think URLs should be possible to type by everyone. I have þ and ð on my keyboard, but not all have... BPJ 11:25, 1 January 2006 (PST)
- Of course the unsimplified spelling should occur in bold face as the first word of the first paragraph and/or in a level one heading at the very top of the page.
- BTW of course not all languages and places are known in a native form in English *here*; e.g. "Tamil" is a Hindi form, in Tamil it is Thamizh in the now current popular romanization, Tamiḻ or Tamiẓ in scholarly romanization. Of course the use of ḻ for /ɻ/ is influenced by the Hindi spelling: from an English POV it would be r, but ṟ is /ɾ/ in Tamil romanization (z popularly). BPJ 11:57, 1 January 2006 (PST)
If you're okay with this:
- In early 1700's they moved further east to Ukraine. It was there that some Hutterites converted to Catholicism and retained a separate ethnic identity, returning to Slevania as Habaner through the 1800's.
Sure it's OK. There are/were quite large protestant communities in Slevania already BTW. BPJ 07:27, 26 January 2006 (PST)
names of first Slevan/Pannonian prices
finally, I have found the etymologies of the two Pannonian/Slevan prices, who have a role in Great Moravia's and Slevania's history!!! first, Pribina is derived from *prijebina (pri-jeb-ina), ie. filius ex alia coniuge. his son, Kocel, is derived from old bavarian Chezilo (das Kitzel, goatling). could you, please, make old Slevan versions of these; ie. IX.-X. century language? Jan II. 02:35, 19 December 2006 (PST)