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So...since it's not a Polska Kielbasa, what would it be *there*? BoArthur


Wikipedia VfD against Wenedyk (again?!)

Yup, they're doing a VfD, and if any of you have reasons to note on the page that aren't already listed there as to why Wenedyk is notable, please go and make the note! ;) BoArthur 08:29, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Done. Jan: don't get yourself too involved in the attacks! They're about as vicious as last time! Elemtilas 15:04, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
It just bothers me that they choose Wenedyk; If they're going to go after conlangs they'd better go after everything else that's not in a boring old encyclopedia, eg books, comics, movies, etc. I thought wikipedia was more than an encyclopedia...grr... BoArthur 15:32, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
I may be wrong, but I do think Wikipedia is little more than a regular encyclopedia. Its main claim to fame is that it is written and maintained by the people (preferably people knowledgeable in a topic) that use it. I'm not so bothered by their aiming at Wenedyk. I've been on both sides of the argument and do think that information such as that contained in the W article would be better off contained in a general Constructed Languages article, that itself has links to websites specific to the conlangs it lists. I simply don't think that such minor works of art have a place there as of yet.
I wish the W were more -- I wish every conlang and every small time not-so-masterwork oil painting and every not-so-well known composer could be recorded -- but it is not yet capable of becomming the ultimate repository of human cultural artifacts. Those who are in charge of the W have set out the basic structure and have set up (perhaps insufficient) criteria for whatever is included. That we can get a couple conlang-related articles on the W is pretty dandy when they are succinct and don't dwell on the inner workings of the language itself. Elemtilas 17:30, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
I agree that it's not meant for the "small time not-so-masterwork oil painting and every not-so-well known composer", but I think that as "parents" of a genre of conlangs, Wenedyk and Brithenig do deserve a page. I wouldn't even begin to think of putting some of the other conlangs in our group or by members of our group up there. They're not worthy of note, but Brithenig and Wenedyk, as the most developed of that first generation of conlangs, I would say, are.  ::sigh:: Oh well, we'll see what develops. BoArthur
Hell, I wouldn't consider putting Montreiano in wikipedia just for the reasons you've cited. I like it a lot, but it's not worthy. Brithenig for instance IS. It's surprising what they will keep, and what gets vociferously voted against. Doobieous 18:47, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Don't worry about me! I've gotten used to this kind of attacks already. AfD discussions seem to provoke the worst in certain people; that's something we'll just have to cope with. It is of course annoying that they use the occasion to express their disdain for conlanging in general nonetheless; and it's quite unfair that votes of people with very few edits are often discounted - disregarding the arguments they use - while the votes of people with more edits who use bad arguments or no arguments at all aren't. But anyway, it's not all that bad: a lot of nice things about Wenedyk are said as well. And if people consider it a "parent" of the genre, along with Brithenig, I consider that a great honour.

In any case, I suppose this discussion will end up the same way it did the first time: in a "no consensus" with about equally many votes for "keep" and for "delete". And that's more or less how it should be, I think: in that first round of AfD discussions, Verdurian and Brithenig easily survived the vote; Wenedyk was about fifty-fifty; some other languages, including Breathanach and Aingeljã, were deleted. If you put these and other cases on a scale, the outcome seems to say something about significance.

As for including conlangs on Wikipedia: in my opinion it would be a pity if Wikipedia would limit itself to things you can also find in a paper encyclopedia. The advantage of the whole concept is that a) everything can be up-to-date, and b) since there is no real space limit, it can encompass much more than even the Brittanica. I dó believe there should be standards regarding significance, though: if the conlang section would consist of thousands of languages, it would probably lose its credibility. But I also agree with Dan: if the deletionists want to weed out crufty stuff, they should start with all the hundreds of minor characters from LOTR, Buffy, and who knows what else! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:28, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

It would be nice if AfD discussions wouldn't turn into a forum for people venting their dislike for something under the guise of "it's not noteworthy". Doobieous 10:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
Yes, it would be nice. Well, at this point I'm ready to say, whatever, you're trolls, all of you, and the article will come back as soon as I get my NaNoWriMo book published, for which I've worked extensively with Jan on Wenedyk content. BoArthur 10:25, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
Hehe. Now thát is something that would I would like to see happening, much more than I care for preserving all wikipedia articles in a row! In any case, don't worry about the article. There is a clear majority for keeping it; about fifteen deletionists (and no additional keep voters) would be needed to get it deleted. And anyway, I have to say that the discussion has been fairly civilised until now (for a conlang AfD discussion, that is). Thank you again for standing up for my work! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 16:05, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
I have just noted, that Nassian English entry on wiki was deleted. Well, I wouldn't die of it (and honestly, I do not care much too), but as I've beed reading the discussion of VfD for Wenedyk, I must admit, that certain type of archetypal mental processes could appear in any field of human activity. Sad, but true. Jan II. 23:14, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
I didn't even know there was an entry about Nassian in wikipedia.en. What was the title of that article? I haven't even found a VfD for it. All I can tell you is that Nassian is mentioned in the article about North Slavic languages. The current format is quite different from the original text, but it firmly survived a VfD.
If it is the Polish wikipedia you are referring to, then I have to admit that it was entirely my doing. There were very short articles about six different North Slavic conlangs, most of them not longer than "X is a North Slavic conlang created by Y"; only the articles about Nassian and Vozgian had a little (but only a little) more substance than that. Sooner or later, I'm sure most of them would have been deleted anyway - if not for lack for notability then for lack of information. In addition, there was a shortish article about fictional North Slavic languages in general. So what I did: I merged all these articles into the latter. But don't worry: I made sure that not a word of information was lost, and I even added some. Frankly, I'm quite satisfied with the result, especially the table with four different Paternosters. And the names of all individual languages discussed there are now redirects to that page. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 02:50, 28 April 2006 (PDT)
The page is fine. I survived the first ring of VfD on Czech wiki like a year ago with Nassian and North Slavic langs. ;) Jan II. 23:06, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Dan's NaNoWriMo Book

Yes, it would be nice. Well, at this point I'm ready to say, whatever, you're trolls, all of you, and the article will come back as soon as I get my NaNoWriMo book published, for which I've worked extensively with Jan on Wenedyk content. BoArthur 10:25, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
Very neat, what's your NaNoWriMo book all about? Doobieous 11:10, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
I've actually got two story ideas for IB; one focused on GWII for which I'm grateful to Zahir for working out the details somewhat! The other one is somewhat under wraps, and I brought it out because, well, I'm frustrated. I will definitely announce the details of it as soon as it's possible. :) I can say that I'm doing a tour of IB, although at present it only talks of Louisianne, the NAL, France, Jervaine, the HRE, Bohemia, RTC and Japan. I'm working on expanding the text and may be including other countries...I just have to make it fit. Since this would be the first novel about our group, it would have to be "introductory." BoArthur 11:54, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
I would certainly be honored if you sent your book through Montrei and Alta California :). Doobieous 12:20, 27 April 2006 (PDT)
AC is on my list of possible destinations; I could even finagle Montrei. I'll be in touch. Watch for it. The sun sparks at midnight and the owl eats monkeys. BoArthur 12:45, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I'll go one better, what the heck is a NaNoWriMo book ? (he asked showing his luddite-like ignorance of topics relating to the "Demon-keyboard-with-magicaly-moving-engraving" contraption) --Marc Pasquin 17:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

"National Novel Writing Month", it's a annual event where you are challenged to write a novel in one month. You don't have to write a masterpiece, the aim is to get people into writing. From
"National Novel Writing Month is a fun, seat-of-your-pants approach to novel writing. Participants begin writing November 1. The goal is to write a 175-page (50,000-word) novel by midnight, November 30.
Valuing enthusiasm and perseverance over painstaking craft, NaNoWriMo is a novel-writing program for everyone who has thought fleetingly about writing a novel but has been scared away by the time and effort involved.
Because of the limited writing window, the ONLY thing that matters in NaNoWriMo is output. It's all about quantity, not quality. The kamikaze approach forces you to lower your expectations, take risks, and write on the fly.
Make no mistake: You will be writing a lot of crap. And that's a good thing. By forcing yourself to write so intensely, you are giving yourself permission to make mistakes. To forgo the endless tweaking and editing and just create. To build without tearing down." Doobieous 02:23, 28 April 2006 (PDT)
May I say, it was an adventure, and Nik was in it as ewll. It was a lot of fun for me to do it, and especially, to write a novel about IB. BoArthur 15:13, 29 April 2006 (PDT)


Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wenedyk (2nd nomination); 02:10 . . Ilmari Karonen (closing, no consensus)

Sound / Grammar Changes

Having not read up too extensively on Wenedyk, did you only follow the sound changes of Proto-Polish, or did you apply grammar changes, as well? BoArthur 00:38, 11 October 2007 (PDT)

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