Talk:Viceregal College

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Are the non-FK/SR/Native provinces "protected" in some other ways (such has veto power in certain matters of jurisdiction) ? --Marc Pasquin 16:56, 25 September 2006 (PDT)

Interesting question. I was initially presuming that *all* NAL provinces are in some sense aligned with a particular Viceroy. However, I can well imagine some would argue about that. Perhaps you recall I mentioned a periodic call for a French Viceroy on behalf of Les Plaines? How do you (or anyone) think this might have been addressed? Zahir 17:20, 25 September 2006 (PDT)

Might there be talk of a Castilian Viceroy for the Floridas? Nik 20:02, 25 September 2006 (PDT)

Quite possibly. Zahir 20:53, 25 September 2006 (PDT)

Contents

Some questions

Why such lengthy terms? And how are they chosen? I would imagine that the English, Scottish, Kemrese, and Scandinavians ones would be, nominally at least, appointed by the respective monarchs, but what about the Native viceroy? And how actually chooses the Viceroys? Does each province have a nominal viceroy, and the PM's from just those provinces choos their viceroy?

No. The College acts for the NAL as a whole. I was thinking a convention meets every fifteen years to nominate a Native Viceroy who is then selected officially by the Ouka of Cherokee. Zahir 20:53, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
So, the Viceroys have no connection with individual provinces? E.g., the English Viceroy doesn't have any (nominal) authority over the English provinces? If so, I wonder if there would be any need for a separate English and Scottish Viceroy, since the crowns have been united since long before the institution of Viceroy was created. Nik 20:59, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
Each province is aligned to one of the Viceroys (or, technically, the crown each Viceroy represents). I like the idea of the Viceroys actually having some kind of authority vis-a-vis the individual provinces. Could you expand on this please?
I do think that since Scotland and England are different countries, they would have different Viceroys, even if the crowns of each kingdom are worn by the same person. Very IB. Zahir 21:40, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
Well, the thought I had was that the English Viceroy might (nominally) appoint the governor for the English provinces. Given the structure of the NAL, I'm not sure what other theoretical powers he or she could have, however.
The issue about England and Scotland, however, is that the viceroy represents the monarch rather than the state. He or she is a representative of Queen Diana, not of the English or Scottish parliament Nik 22:05, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
I see your point, but in terms of real politik it would probably be wiser for the sake of national pride (and inter-kingdom relations) to consider Queen Diana two monarchs who happen to be same individual human being. I'm Scots myself and my father (as well as my brother) have both been involved in St. Andrews Societies and pipe bands as long as I can remember. To put it mildly, the Scots as a people are kinda touchy.
My assumption was the Viceroys are mostly ceremonial positions. Perhaps they open their respective Provincial legislatures? And maybe they have the same powers of veto and pardon the First Viceroy has but within their aligned provinces? Zahir 06:54, 26 September 2006 (PDT)

Also, a suggestion, instead of all of the viceroys' terms beginning and ending at the same time, why not have their terms be staggered, with the seniormost viceroy serving as First Viceroy?

For example, the first Scottish Viceroy would've only served from 1841 - 1845. The Kemrese from 1841 - 1849, and the English from 1841 - 1853. The admission of New Sweden would've complicated matters slightly. The Scottish Viceroy's term would've been unaffected, while the Kemrese's term would've been ended a year earlier, and the English Viceroy's two years earlier. The first Scandinavian Viceroy would've served 1848-1853. After that, it would run smoothly. Thus:

  • 1st Scottish Viceroy: 1841-1845 [First Viceroy from 1841-1845]
  • 1st Kemrese Viceroy: 1841-1848 [First Viceroy from 1845-1848]
  • 1st English Viceroy: 1841-1851 [First Viceroy from 1848-1851]
  • 1st Scandinavian Viceroy: 1848-1854 [First Viceroy from 1851-1854]
  • 2nd Scottish Viceroy: 1845-1857 [First Viceroy from 1854-1857]
  • 2nd Kemrese Viceroy: 1848-1860 [First Viceroy from 1857-1860]
  • 2nd English Viceroy: 1851-1863 [First Viceroy from 1860-1863]
  • 2nd Scandinavian Viceroy: 1854-1866 [First Viceroy from 1863-1866]

and so on

In 1916, Parliament passed an act providing for an additional, Native, viceroy, whose term would begin in 1917. Each of the then-serving Viceroys would serve the term they were originally chosen for, but beginning with their successors, they would serve 15-year terms, thus:

  • 7th Scottish Viceroy: 1905-1917 [First Viceroy 1914-1917]
  • 7th Kemrese Viceroy: 1908-1920 [First Viceroy 1920-1923]
  • 7th English Viceroy: 1911-1923 [First Viceroy 1923-1926]
  • 7th Scandinavian Viceroy: 1914-1926 [First Viceroy 1926-1929]
  • 1st Native Viceroy: 1917-1929 [First Viceroy 1929-1932]
  • 8th Scottish Viceroy: 1917-1932 [First Viceroy 1932-1935]

and so on

Thus, under my proposal, the table would look like this:

Alignment Name Took Office Left Office First Viceroy
Scottish unknown 1841 1845 1841-45
Kemrese unknown 1841 1848 1845-48
English unknown 1841 1851 1848-51
Scandinavian* unknown 1848 1854 1851-54
Scottish unknown 1845 1857 1851-57
Kemrese unknown 1848 1860 1857-60
English unknown 1851 1863 1860-63
Scandinavian unknown 1854 1866 1863-66
Scottish unknown 1857 1869 1866-69
Kemrese unknown 1860 1872 1869-72
English unknown 1863 1875 1872-75
Scandinavian unknown 1866 1878 1875-78
Scottish unknown 1869 1881 1878-81
Kemrese unknown 1872 1884 1881-84
English unknown 1875 1887 1884-87
Scandinavian unknown 1878 1890 1887-90
Scottish unknown 1881 1893 1890-93
Kemrese unknown 1884 1896 1893-96
English unknown 1887 1899 1896-99
Scandinavian unknown 1890 1902 1899-1902
Scottish unknown 1893 1905 1902-05
Kemrese unknown 1896 1908 1905-08
English unknown 1899 1911 1908-11
Scandinavian unknown 1902 1914 1911-14
Scottish unknown 1905 1917 1914-17
Kemrese unknown 1908 1920 1917-20
English unknown 1911 1923 1920-23
Scandinavian unknown 1914 1926 1923-26
Native unknown 1917 1929 1926-29
Scottish unknown 1917 1932 1929-31
Kemrese unknown 1920 1935 1931-35
English unknown 1923 1938 1935-38
Scandinavian unknown 1926 1941 1938-41
Native unknown 1929 1944 19416-44
Scottish unknown 1932 1947 1944-47
Kemrese unknown 1935 1950 1947-50
English unknown 1938 1953 1950-53
Scandinavian unknown 1941 1956 1953-56
Native unknown 1944 1959 1956-59
Scottish unknown 1947 1962 1959-62
Kemrese unknown 1950 1965 1962-65
English unknown 1953 1968 1965-68
Scandinavian unknown 1956 1971 1968-71
Native unknown 1959 1974 1971-74
Scottish unknown 1962 1977 1974-77
Kemrese unknown 1965 1980 1977-80
English unknown 1968 1983 1980-83
Scandinavian unknown 1971 1986 1983-86
Native unknown 1974 1989 1986-89
Scottish unknown 1977 1992 1989-92
Kemrese unknown 1980 1995 1992-95
English unknown 1983 1998 1995-98
Scandinavian unknown 1986 2001 1998-2001
Native unknown 1989 2004 2001-04
Scottish unknown 1992 2007 2004-07
Kemrese unknown 1995 2010 2007-10
English unknown 1998 2013 2010-13
Scandinavian unknown 2001 2016 2013-2016
Native Ben Nighthorse Campbell 2004 2019 2016-19
Honestly, I would like this suggestion save that every time I think I understand it, I actually don't. Which is my fault, but there it is. Zahir 20:53, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
Basically, the viceroyalties are rotating. In the same way that 1/3 of *here*'s Senate is up for re-election every two years, 1/5 of *there*'s Viceregal College is replaced every three years. Furthermore, each Viceroy holds the position of First Viceroy for the last three years of his or her term, ensuring that the viceroy with the most experience is First Viceroy. Nik 20:59, 25 September 2006 (PDT)
Okay, I think I got that. Zahir 21:40, 25 September 2006 (PDT)

I would appreciate anyone else's feedback about this proposed change before I implement it. Zahir 06:54, 26 September 2006 (PDT)

One thing however is that 3*5 is 15 years, which is quite a long time. Situations when viceroys die in office or become so ill that they could not continue their job probably are relatively common, since most likely viceroys aren't young usually. Here comes the question for what happens then - is that vceroy changed by another one from his country until the end of his term? How about the role of the First Viceroy then? Does that new person becomes First Viceroy on planned time even if he is far from the most experienced? Or, in such cases where First Viceroy dies in office, does that new person becomes First Viceroy immidietly after assuming power? Or does another viceroy, second by his time served, becomes the First Viceroy and therefore might have term as First Viceroy of 6 years or even more if the situation is right for that? Abdul-aziz 03:24, 3 November 2006 (PST)
The term of office would indicate that NAL Viceroys tend to be relatively young compared to others. However, I would also suggest that perhaps a Viceroy Pro Tempore might be chosen, to fullfill a given term when the office is vacated for any reason. My own suggestion is that the First Viceroy-ship be unaffected by this, simply because it becomes too unwieldy for me to keep track of. <g> Zahir 07:19, 3 November 2006 (PST)

Non-native non-monarch provinces

The provinces of the Floridas and New Iberia seem to be forgotten in that they have no monarch but are not native. Are they, then, represented by the native Viceroy? --Quentin 00:22, 26 September 2006 (PDT)

Good question. The Floridas are rather recent, but New Iberia's been around for a century Nik 01:06, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Also, is LP a native province really? It doesn't have a monarch. --Quentin 04:41, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
The question is--How would New Iberia have negotiated their alignment upon joining the NAL? And I am not the one to answer that question. Zahir 06:54, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Scotland - Alba Nuadh
England - Virginia, Pennsylvaania, New Hampshire, Massachussets Bay, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Kent, Ontario, Carolina, Bahamas, Jamaica, Jacobia, Oxbridge, Kentucky, Illinoise
Kemr - Castreleon New, Pennsylvaania, Ter Mair, Tenisi
Scandinavia - New Sweden, New Iceland
Native - Aquanishuonigy, Cherokee Nation, Mobile, Miami, Ouisconsin, Utawia, Mascoutensi, Nunavik
Other - West Florida, East Florida, Mueva Sefarad, Les Plaines --Quentin 04:47, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Historically--both *here* and *there*--Scotland and France were allies for a very long time. I would suggest that Les Plaines might chose to fall under the Scottish Viceroy. Remember, the alignment of a given Province is a matter of negotiation and choice by the politicians involved, usually when a Province joins the NAL. Ethnicity and culture no doubt are a major factor but hardly the only one. One can easily see, for example, a Province's leaders (and people) prefering the full attention (such as it is) of a Viceroy without so many calls upon their time, like the Scottish or SR. Hence the choices of the Floridas, Mueva Sefarad and Les Plaines are not immediately clear, nor need they follow some kind of strict cultural rule. Zahir 06:54, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Actually, the Bahamas are Kemrese. Also, I don't think that Mobile would count as a Native province. If anything, it would be represented by either the English Viceroy, or be in the "Other" category. --Sikulu 06:20, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Up to the circumstances and choices of the Mobilean government. There's also the interesting idea of "Might a Province petitition to change its alignment?" Zahir 06:54, 26 September 2006 (PDT)
Mobile and the Floridas can be probably put under English, can't they? --Quentin 04:35, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
That is a possibility, but since it is up to the individual Province in question, maybe not. I would imagine it better for all concerned if the Scandinavian, Kemrese and Scottish Viceroys were frankly given more to do. Zahir 08:10, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
The Floridas and Mobile both originated as English colonies (Mobile historically came from the part of West Florida that avoided being reconquered by Spain) Nik 20:44, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

A related question is, what did the Native provinces do before the Native Viceroy was invented? Aquanishuonigy was one of the first Provinces, and Cherokee joined only a few years later. What were they doing for a hundred years? I feel like if they had to choose, Mueva Sefarad would go with the Natives. The next best choice might be Scotland, due to the proximity to Alba Nuadh, but there's no real historical connection there. At least with the Native Viceroy they could justify it by the substantial Beothuk and Innu populations in the province. Steg, a.k.a. 08:47, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

Presumably they just didn't have a viceroy, or, alternately, the First Viceroy served as their viceroy. Since it's essentially an honorary position, there would be little problem with that, I imagine. The real question is, why did the Natives feel the need to change the situation? Was there some issue that arose that made either the absence of a viceroy, or having a "foreign" viceroy, seem intolerable? Or perhaps it was simply a matter of pride? Nik 13:38, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
I was seeing the creation of Viceregal College as initially a face-saving measure on the part of Kemre, Scotland and England to reconcile their all-but-official loss of the American colonies. On the NAL's side, it was (in theory) a stopgap against what we might call an "Imperial General Moderator-ship." Thus (and methinks Nik has a brill ideer there) the First Viceroy would serve as the Native one, for all practical purposes.
As for why a Native Viceroy, I would see that as a result of the changing political landscape. By the turn of the century, the NAL was becoming more centralized (albeit not so much as the USA) and the Native peoples had reason to see themselves--rightly or wrongly--as marginalized. One visible symbol of such was the treatment of the monarchs as European nations as "real" (in terms of requiring a Viceroy) while the Native leadership--such as the Ouka of the Cherokee--were not. I was seeing the creation of the Native Viceroyalty as an achievement of Sir Arthur Laurier. Frankly, I don't see either his immediate predecessor nor immediate successors very likely to agree to such a thing, at least not without a fight. Zahir 19:10, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Another thought I just had - perhaps one of the Viceroys' functions is to approve a declaration of war on behalf of their provinces. For example, in theory, the English provinces could stay out of an NAL war if their Viceroy vetoes their participation in said war. In practice, of course, all the viceroys would approve their participation in the war if the American Parliament passed a declaration of war. Now, given that the Native Viceroy was created at around the time of the First Great War, could it be that several of the Native Provinces were opposed to the War, and demanded their own Viceroy, so that they avoid a repeat of that situation in the future? (furthermore, if we go with this idea, could it be that during the Second Great War, the Native provinces *did* stay out of the war? Or, alternately, that there were delicate negotiations required to get them to go along with the rest of the League?) Nik 13:50, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Well, as it stands now the Native Viceroy was created in 1914, prior or approximately at the same time as the start of the First Great War. Still, this is a fascinating possibility, especially how we know that the NAL barely involved itself in the War at first. Veeerrrrrryyyyy interesting indeed! <g> Zahir 19:10, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Well, the date isn't QSS, is it? It can be changed.  :-) Nik 20:44, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Yet another thought related to the above discussion - in the case of the European provinces, perhaps the normal path that a territory took towards provincehood was three fold. It would start out as part of a League-administered "unincorporated territory", like the current UT. Then, parts would be broken off as organized territories, administered by a specific province. For example, Tenisi would've been a territory under Carolina's administration. They would develop it until it was ready to become a full province, similar to the concept of a LoN mandate (in fact, perhaps *there* that was the origin of hte idea?). The new province would naturally fall under the same Viceroy as the province which had developed it. The grant of provicnehood would be another Viceregal function. The English Viceroy would've formally granted provincial status to Tenisi. Native Provinces would've originally faced a collective assembly of the heads of the already-existing Native provinces. Of course, in practice, it would be the American Parliament that would determine provincial status Nik 14:03, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Interesting. But haven't we established that Tenisi is Kemrese? At least their flag is Kemrese-based. Zahir 19:10, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Ah, right. I'd forgotten about that. Well, then, maybe it wouldn't work that way. Still, perhaps the territories were under specific viceroys, who would've been the one who originally negotiated the acquisition of the land from the natives.
What I wonder is, why was the viceregal college established so late? I would've thought that it would be very soon after the establishment of the League, or possibly even that the viceroys were the successors of previously-existing governors-general Nik 20:44, 27 September 2006 (PDT)
Recall how the NAL came to be. The American colonies basically waited until the home countries were too busy to do anything about it (fighting Napoleon and all) to declare themselves independent of the respective legislatures. United, they were too much trouble later on for the England, Kemre or Scotland to try and bring back to the fold. However, one can be sure some kind of negotiations were ongoing--to salvage pride, investment, favorable trade status, etc. But initially in the NAL a lot of the arguments were over the power of the GM. The Confederationalists wanted a strong executive, whereas the Whigs saw Parliament as essentially more important. Towards that end they were in favor of some counterpoint to the GM's position, which ended up being the Viceregal College. Does that make sense? Zahir 22:53, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

Personnaly I think that if they had to chose, Les Plaines would have gone for the Native viceroy for the following reason: It has been established that the province joined NAL in a bid to maintain neutrality vis-a-vis NF and LA. If they had taken one of the european "protectors", this would have opened up a different set of problems since one of them might (in theory) have found themselves at war with either NF or LA due to the game of alliances. By chosing the Native Viceroy, it would emphasise that Les Plaines was "out of the game" and so truly neutral.

It occur to me also that if the Native Viceroy was a latter creation, it could have found backing exactly in the other provinces that, thought european, were not represented in the college. By default then, provinces such as MS (or now florida) would have their interest protected by the Native viceroy. --Marc Pasquin 18:16, 28 September 2006 (PDT)

That is also a perfectly viable scenario. Zahir 18:50, 28 September 2006 (PDT)

Proposed Viceregal Flags

Did some designing and hoped to get some feedback... Zahir 21:16, 2 November 2006 (PST)

I like them very much. Keep up the good work David. --Sikulu 01:12, 3 November 2006 (PST)

Many thanks! Zahir 10:49, 4 November 2006 (PST)

What's the symbolism of the Native Viceroy flag? — Steg, a.k.a. 16:19, 4 November 2006 (PST)

The blue and green indicate waters and forests, with the brown/orange as the actual soil. The seven black hills/mountains indicate mountains as well as the idea of seven generations--that plans should be made with their impact on severn generations in mind. The stars are the sky, but also there are seven stars in the NAL flag. Zahir 17:48, 4 November 2006 (PST)

A suggestion: maybe the flags could be a bit closer to that of other viceregals (I do realise their political situation is a tad different but not that much). The following first 3 are based on the FK viceregals flags although the field of the first 2 has been changed to blue (to fit in with the College flag). Note that the title of "North American Provinces" instead of NAL is meant to emphasise the fact that the area of control of each is over *parts* of the League. Regarding this, does anyone know what the sentence would be in Scotland's official language ?

The SR flag is based on government and royal flags used *here* which use the warflag as template instead of the National one. --Marc Pasquin 18:25, 19 November 2006 (PST)

Oooooh! I like! What does everybody else think? Zahir 18:53, 19 November 2006 (PST)
Mark's ones look good too. I hope there's a way to use both sets. --Sikulu 01:27, 20 November 2006 (PST)

Spanish Viceroy?

Is there a "Spanish" Viceroy for MS, WF and EF?

This was discussed in the conculture group. While perhaps the idea might be floated around, there simply haven't been much pressure in that direction. For one thing, MS doesn't feel much (if any) connection to any European Throne. The Floridas likewise haven't been back with the NAL very long at all. An analogy might be the Electoral College--perhaps a total anachronism, but requiring enormous effort to abolish, effort that is better spent (in nearly everyone's opinion) elsewhere. Zahir 06:53, 3 January 2007 (PST)
It wouldn't be connected to a european throne because it's Spanish, not Castillian or Aragonese. --Quentin 10:41, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

Les Plaines?

Umm... Les Plaines falls under the Scottish Viceregal? Why? A better option would be to place it under the color "Teal - Undefined" like Nueva Sefarad. Seth 07:20 15 September 2007

I know my own theory is that Les Plaines might have chosen to be under the Scottish Viceroy out of a sense of kinship between the traditional allies, France and Scotland. Zahir 07:35, 15 September 2007 (PDT)
To be quite honnest, that sort of "kinship" only realy applied to the government. The people themselves saw little difference between the scots and the english. In quebec *here* for example, the only british nation the francophone felt close to was the irish due to their religion and political situation. In my opinion, it would make more sense to have the other nations (les plaines, MF, florida) default to the native viceroy --Marc Pasquin 18:21, 15 September 2007 (PDT)
I disagree very slightly, because it seems to me each province makes the choice itself, based on the individual circumstances and beliefs at the time of admission. Which is also to say Les Plaines might well come under the Native Viceroy's pervue. My justification was a very thin thread indeed. Personally, I've no objection. Zahir 07:29, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

The Les Plaines article says that the province includes the Red River Colony, which is Scottish. Maybe they were enough of a political force to convince the French settlers to join the Scottish viceroy. Benkarnell 09:29, 3 October 2007 (PDT)

Unless the scotish colony was a lot bigger then *here*, they would be outnumbered by both the french and metis, the later making more likely to chose the Native Viceroy.--Marc Pasquin 19:34, 3 October 2007 (PDT)
But would the Metis be enough to make it a Native Viceroyality? Personally, I think the best solution is to classify it as "Undefined." Seth 02:17, 5 October 2007
Ben Nighthorse Campbell is from Les Plaines, and now he is the Native Viceroy. This may indicate that it's a Native province. While there doesn't seem to be a rule that the Viceroy must come from a province that he represents, it does seem to be longstanding tradition. Benkarnell 09:32, 15 October 2007 (PDT)

Should I bring this up on the Conculture site and have a vote? Because, honestly, I still believe it should be Undefined or Native. Seth 06:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

By all means! Thanks for taking the trouble! Zahir 16:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Welp, garnering 50% of the vote, the people have stated they believe Les Plaines would fall most likely under "undefined" Seth 04:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
And that poll led to the concept of the Fifth Monarchy getting fleshed out. So I think everyone's comfortable putting Les Plaines in that category. Benkarnell 16:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The Ouka and the Native Viceroy

Why does the Cherokee Ouka get precedence in officially selecting the Native viceroy? That leaves the other Nations out. I suggest instead that it's the Council Fire, which plays a role similar to the European monarchs, in that it's a very old and traditional source of authority with mostly symbolic power today. Benkarnell 11:42, 3 October 2007 (PDT)

I was under the impression it was Council Fire too, especially considering that they're older than the Ouka as a body. I'll as Zahir, it's his domain. --Quentin 08:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Quite right, it should be the Council Fire rather than the Ouka. Zahir 15:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Deprop?

This article has been on the Proposal List for about two years now. It has been discussed, the article reflects those discussions, news articles have been built upon the subject, so it's about as QSS as QSS can get. Perhaps it's time to deprop it? Later discoveries can of course always be added. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 09:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The English Viceroy

The only incumbent Viceroy who is still undefined is the English one (inducted 1998). As it seems to me that doppelgangers of USA liberals have received better treatment in IB (compare the fates of Al Gore and Jorge Bush), I suggest creating a double for a conservative, such as Chester Lott, Jr. of Mobile Province. Benkarnell 18:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Zahir 21:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
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