Talk:Union of Ice
Merging the Articles
Trawling through the archives, per the discussion at Talk:League of Ice, I put together all the pertinent bits that mention either (or both) the League of Ice and the Union of Ice. I wonder if we weren't really discussing the same entity. John C. used both terms somewhat haphazardly (as all the rest of us did), but also made it clear that the entity is the Union of Ice, not the League of Ice (Jan proposed that as a different organisation, but it was apparently shot down).
Given John's choice of name, I propose that his name be respected and, if it should be decided that the LoI is in fact the same thing as the UoI, its article be merged here. If it turns out to be different, then we need to sort out why.
A lot of work has been done on flags, so I think that should remain intact.
Elemtilas 21:18, 13 June 2007 (PDT)
- To this end, I've merged the two articles into "Union of Ice"; picked a founding year of 1969 (JC said 1960s) and set joining dates for former SNOR regions. Also, noted the Union's lingua franca and underlying principles. Look good? Elemtilas 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Some Old Issues
Why was New Francy included ? I vaguely remember mention of it on the list but no part of the Intendancy is in the arctic circle (unless they set up some sort of research station). Is membership standard loose enough to allow "northen countries" in general ? The only other reason would be for economical reasons, either for fishing related questions (about the spawning in the north atlantic) or if maybe league countries use the st-lawrence seaway.
--Marc Pasquin 07:04, 25 February 2006 (PST)
- The fishing related questions make sense to me for their membership. JMHO. Zahir 07:47, 25 February 2006 (PST)
- This is quite true: waters use (fishing, whaling, etc) are important considerations, but not really sufficient because, for example, Japan has a whaling industry, yet they are not members.
- I think that what clinched New France's membership in the LoI is that they have waterfrontage on the Hudson's Bay, which is a bay of the Arctic Ocean, and they undoubtedly make some use of that frontage. Otherwise, I really don't see how or why the NAL would have given them that waterfront. As for Arctic research, New France is always welcome to send scientists on up to any one of various American research stations in the Arctic region. That invitation is extended to really any friendly nation. Elemtilas 10:30, 26 February 2006 (PST)
- Based on John's comments, Nouvelle Francie is out. I've limited the list to those regions and areas discussed long ago. If some other areas should be deemed appropriate for membership, then we should discuss that. Elemtilas 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
How about Ontario??? --Quentin 10:42, 28 March 2006 (PST)
- Ontario isn't a country.--Marc Pasquin 15:38, 28 March 2006 (PST)
- Nunavik's a member. --Sikulu 23:52, 28 March 2006 (PST)
Is Nassland an acceptable member? It borders the Ice Sea (*here* White Sea) which is part of Arctic Ocean. Jan II. 22:37, 28 March 2006 (PST)
- Nassland would be acceptable if its linguistic / cultural relationships are with Inuit-Aleut or Siberian groups. If the other pan Arctic supranational organisation were to be formed, then Nassland would certainly be welcome. Elemtilas 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I'm afraid this whole discussion is irrelevant. First of all, I'm quite positive the name "League of Ice" is wrong; it should be Union of Ice. It was a creation of John C. Although he never went deeply into detail about the UoI, what I seem to remember is that it does nót consist of entire states, but rather of villages, communities, perhaps a province here or there (so I guess it would be better to compare it to the Hansa than to a real supranational organisation). And that it's mostly a cultural thing.
I remember uttering the idea of a supranational organisation encompassing all countries around the North pole (not only Greenland, Nunavik, Sapme etc., but also Chukotka, Nenetsia, Yakutia...), but John made it quite clear that that was nót what the UoI was about. I think we should respect his point of view and perhaps dig a little in the Archives to find what we wrote literally. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:49, 29 March 2006 (PST)
- Alternatively, we could move the information in this article to another, and create a new Supranational Organisation (the Artic Union or something), and put what should be in the article in the article. --Sikulu 02:42, 29 March 2006 (PST)
- The misnomer "League of Ice" has been erased in favour of John's name. If anyone thinks some other sort of supranational organisation of Arctic states would be of use (and I think that such an entity would be), then that too can be discussed. I think it would be appropriate for such an organisation to work with the UoI, or some External Relations branch of the UoI in order to ensure that folks' rights aren't trodden on. Elemtilas 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Will only have to make sure any links to "League of Ice" are changed to UoI. Elemtilas 15:40, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Left over bits from the original Article
Much of the following material is by now superceded or is not entirely correct. I've left it here as a matter of archiving. Delete as you see fit!
|This article is source material
UNION of ICE:
- My favorite example (of federations in IB) is the Union of Ice, which includes Greenland (overlapping the Scandinavian Union), Nunavut, various parts of western N.A., and even stretches of Siberia. [JC]
- Where in Siberia? Basically where Inuk-speaking people live. I haven't worked it out more specifically than that.
- I think the UoI arose after the fall of SNOR.
- The Union of Ice, to mention the most recent of these, incorporates polities that "belong" to Russia, Scandinavia, the NAL, and Nouvelle-Francie.
- The Intendance surely wouldn't belong to the Union of Ice. [JC] -- Fair enough. So they have no Inuit populations that would be interested? [PB] -- Probably the U of I has individual and village members as well as national ones. [JC] -- nope, the only inuits in the vacinity aare those in nunavik who are as you know a special administrative region in the NAL. [MP] -- I guess that takes care of New France being a UoI / LoI member! [PB]
- RE: League of Ice: BTW, it's the Union of Ice. (This is a "hidden" reference to a sf novel by Alan Dean Foster.)
- Perhaps, however, some kind of Alyaska-Chukotka alliance still exists? -- Well, both are definitely part of the Union of Ice (along with Greenland, Iceland, Nunavut, Sapme, and perhaps Nenetsia). [JvS]
- Why Iceland? Is it not exclusively settled by people of Scandinavian ethnicity, *there* as *here*? The UofI is primarily about Inuit (broadly conceived), and probably Alyaskan villages are members rather than Alyaska itself.
- Okay, I wasn't sure about Iceland. But even if the UofI is primarily about Inuit, that still qualifies Chukotka (or, as you say, a number of Chukchian villages). Does this mean Sapme and Nenetsia are disqualified? [JvS]
- The Union of Ice, if I understood John correctly, is very much an Inuit thing, and it consists of communities rather than of states. Members are parts of Greenland, Nunavut, Alyaska, and Chukotka.
- A long time ago, I proposed expanding it to an organisation of states centered around the North Pole (in which case it could also have encompassed Sapme, Nenetsia, Yakutia, Iceland, etc., and also New Dalmatia would have qualified), but that idea was not accepted.[JvS]
- Nunavut, being an Inuit state, is a state member of the UoI, and hosts it. The other members are not states, as you say. [JC] -- Though it's certainly possible that there are other Inuit states that are members of the UoI. [PB]
>> AFAIK, the LOI consists of Greenland, the Inuit territories/provinces >> of the NAL, Alaska, and perhaps also Chukotka. I have never heard Sapme >> mentioned as being a part of it, but I don't see why not. I like the >> idea of completing the circle (around the Arctic). >The core members are the peoples (not necessarily governments) that speak >an Inuit-Aleut language, anywhere from Greenland to Siberia. There may indeed >be other members. Oh, OK... I thought it was a cultural thing for Arctic cultures. What if it was originally a league for Inuit-Aleut people, but then it expanded to include all Arctic peoples? >> I wonder what the lingua-franca is... >I'm not sure. I suspect the languages are not as differentiated in IB as >they have become here. The Union of Ice began in the east (Greenland/North >America), so eastern dialects are probably dominant for trade purposes. BTW, AFAIK Greenlandic was the first Inuit language to get its own orthography. If this is true, then perhaps the lingua-franca (at least in the Inuit speaking areas) would be Greenlandic.
LEAGUE of ICE:
- Which countries are members of the LOI? I was just thinking: it might include Yakutia and Chukotka as well. And perhaps even some of Russia's Northern regions, too (like Nenetsia, the Arkhangelsk region, Kola peninsula or perhaps just the city of Murmansk)... That would make the whole Arctic circle round!
- AFAIK, the LOI consists of Greenland, the Inuit territories/provinces of the NAL, Alaska, and perhaps also Chukotka. I have never heard Sapme mentioned as being a part of it, but I don't see why not. I like the idea of completing the circle (around the Arctic).
- The core members are the peoples (not necessarily governments) that speak an Inuit-Aleut language, anywhere from Greenland to Siberia. There may indeed be other members. [JC]
- Hmm, well, as Chukotka speaks Chukchi-Kamchatkan languages, and a Mandarin Creole, I don't think they can really join... -- I said "core". Certainly they can join if it makes sense. [JC]
- Well, before we decide which countries or regions are members of the League of Ice, I would like to know what exactly the League of Ice is about? When was it created, and for what purposes? Is it cultural, political, economical? If it is merely a cultural/linguistic thing of the Inuit, then it certainly wouldn't make sense if Chukotka, Saami, or parts of Russia would join. However, if we consider it a vehicle for economic cooperation between countries around the North Pole (something similar to the Baltic League, perhaps?), then I'm sure these countries would most certainly be interested. [JvS]
- I think it began as the former and has moved/is moving to the latter. It is a relatively recent grouping (I figure around the 1960s.) [JC]
Member territories are:
- Province of Nunavik (NAL) -- hosts the group's proceedings
- The Unincorporated Territories (NAL)
- Siberian regions of Russia