Talk:South Florida

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HRE...

I like that idea! If I look at the map right, South Florida could very well become similiar to the Holy Roman Empire. If we take the República Conchesa as a sign, then we may be able to get a government going in South Florida. And think of the possibilities that one of the districts is a condominium! Seth 6:59 16 April 2006 (PST)

I think that an HRE-like group would actually be desirable. Now what the RTC has in mind, who knows, but I think that the Irish are happy with the idea of a decentralized autonomous nation. BoArthur 08:04, 17 April 2006 (PDT)

Seminoles?

What happened to the Seminole indians *there*? Were they as poorly treated by the whites as *here*? Or were they partners? or...? BoArthur 21:11, 18 April 2006 (PDT)

A good question indeed. The First Seminole War likely did not happen, or, if it did, would've occurred differently, given that Florida remained Spanish. Nik 16:51, 25 April 2006 (PDT)
Perhaps the Seminole retained considerable autonomy in inner Florida, particularly the Everglades. During Bush's reign, I suspect they would've been forced to assimilate, and, quite possibly, the Seminole Nation was carved up among neighboring Distritos. There could be agitation for restored independence or autonomy by the Seminole Nik 16:54, 25 April 2006 (PDT)
I would posit that under Bush's term in office, they would have been granted rights previously lacking and might have been encouraged to mainstream; but would not have been "forced to assimilate". You're falling prey to the imperialist propaganda machine that has Bush pegged as a tinpot dictator! ;) Elemtilas 07:32, 31 October 2007 (PDT)

They might be the driving force for the "redistricting" of the central regions. It will be interesting to see the real Irish map when it comes out. BoArthur 07:54, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

Republic of South Florida

Perhaps the name should be something more like "Federal Republic of South Florida" or "Federation of South Florida", given the decentralized nature of the proposal. Nik 16:51, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

I belive that "Federation of South Florida" would be best, but "Federal Republic of South Florida" sounds really good also. We may also have to deal with the Irish and RTC government clashing to see what the future of South Florida is. Seth 14:01, 26 April 2006 (PST)
Oh, I fully expect there to be some HIGH tensions between Ireland and the RTC. BoArthur 07:53, 26 April 2006 (PDT)
Upon further thinking, I think "Confederation of Florida"/"Confederate Republics of Florida" would do better. I dropped the "South" from South Florida, because I think Floridians would prefer to think of themselves AS Florida, and not just some remainder portion. What do you guys think? Seth 02:44, 28 August 2007
I like the "Confederate Republics of Florida" better. BoArthur 20:50, 27 August 2007 (PDT)

Advance?

I've been looking over some articles recently, and remembered South Florida. How would you guys feel to have more autonomy being granted, and and a few of the Autonomous zones to begin discussion of their future? Needless to say, RTC is going to be miffed by this slow transition, and tensions will rise again. What do you think? Seth 10:36 pm, 26 April, 2007

I would say yes, but I'm thinking that we'll only be able to speak for the Irish side of the equation; Jan's had a spot of life crop up, like many of us, and so he's been out of contact for a bit. BoArthur 17:30, 27 April 2007 (PDT)

And now it's already almost November! Does anyone know how the year has been in Florida? Have the Irish continued granting autonomy to various republics? Is the RTC portion a quagmire? Benkarnell 09:19, 26 October 2007 (PDT)

I can't really speak for either side, but since I started the germanization process of the Irish side, I would say, yes, they're all mostly autonomous. As for the RTC, Jan of Steel? BoArthur 17:00, 26 October 2007 (PDT)

Perhaps it's time to advance this? I can't remember where, but I thought the Floridians were supposed to either be "free" by late 2008 or sometime in 2009, so... Seth 04:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Something to bring up to Jan Van Steenbergen. It's been waiting on the RTC Zone. BoArthur 16:31, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Certainly, recent news out of Florida's RTC Zone indicates that the South Floridians aren't willing to bide much longer. Guerilla activity has been suspected since 2004, and was reported on by the BBC in 2007. Open revolts have blossomed since, and while the official line is "no appreciable guerrila activity beyond small bands of ill-equipped and failing rebels hiding out in the swamps", I should think it would be rather difficult to hide the events of late 2008.
That the (presently) victorious rebels have gotten the NAL and Irish governors officially involved in what was recently RTC controlled territory, one can only imagine the tensions in the region have heightened.
I think it's also fair to say that the NAL is not prepared to wait much longer, either. Sure, they certainly bided their time in recovering the Floridas at all, but once the NAL does wake from slumber and begins to move, the problem becomes one of stopping it again. Various talk of outright assimilation into East Florida, annexing the place as a separate province (South Florida, presumably), quietly supporting the rebels in their bid for independence can only serve to inflame fears among both the Irish and the RTC. Whatever the future actually will reveal, two American senators and their teams of investigators are presently touring the provisional Commonwealth of Four Palms and plan on heading south to Miami to see what's what.
Elemtilas 15:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Germanisation Scheme

I'm curious as to why the Irish would choose the modern HRE as its template for Floridian self rule in the aftermath of the 2004 War. Was there a conscious decision to germanise the region in an effort to debilitate the country like what happened to the HRE in the aftermath of GWII? Did they feel it was otherwise important to segregate various power centres? Did they place this project in the hand of some cartographers who got all happy with the coloured pens? :) Personally, I think it's doomed to failure, or at least a long and difficult road ahead. Floridians are still smarting, especially in the eastern zone (the RTC's) and have not proven to be especially cooperative. Elemtilas 07:28, 31 October 2007 (PDT)

I believe we chose "Germanisation" because it would still allow a Floridian "state", but would not be so centralized that it could attempt to retake it's former empire. Seth 16:53, 31 October 2007
I think Seth has hit the general feeling. I don't think that the goal was to debilitate Florida, but was indeed a push by the "victors" (LA, SR, NAL, &c) to limit the chance for a resurgence of Florida-Caribbea. I think that when it finally surfaces, the government of Florida will be a confederacy, with much more of the government in the hands of the sub-regions than in the hands of a central government, as in Tampa. BoArthur 17:08, 31 October 2007 (PDT)

I'm becoming a tad jarred by the recent movements in SE Florida, notably the Four Palms. It seems to me that the movements gripping RTC-occupied South Florida are not even trying to work with the Irish-occupied zone, but are attempting to break into several independent statelets. I'm a tad opposed to this seeing as how the Floridians are a very proud people and would probably like to at least have a single somewhat-semi-unified front, rather than multiple weak ones. While I agree that Miami would probably be a hotbed of Floridian and RTC uniqueness (forgive me if there is a better phrase, but is it quite late where I am...), I still doubt that a majority in the region would like to be occupied any longer, and see the occupation as wither temporary or something that must be violently opposed (Four Palms). Seth 07:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you've adequately voiced the feelings of those states in the Irish ZOC. I think those under the thumb of the RTC are a bit scrabbled just now, trying to fight off the oppressive Veneds. I think that when the dust settles, they'll come to their senses. That's MY feeling, at least. BoArthur 14:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
As far as Four Palms is concerned, they *are* actually working with the Irish, if not directly with the Irish occupied zone (mostly, because they are not part of the Irish occupied zone). They went first and formost to the Irish and have sought such assistance from them as they're willing and able to give. They didn't ask to be taken over by Ireland; Ireland didn't seek to take them over.
Obviously, nothing is yet settled regarding the status of southern Florida at all, whether it will be small independent states or a central unitary state or a confederation of some kind. Four Palms is, at present, most happy with its own independence and, at present, is not interested at all in a unitary state. (I have the feeling SW Florida isn't that interested in a strong central government either, because the natural center for one is highly populous and former capital city, Miami.) They have expressed on several occasions that they would be satisfied with some kind of, as you say above, confederation with government in the hands of the sub-regions. I think they're willing to entertain the latter, and their seeking Irish help and their choice of currency as being identical to that used in SW Florida is indicative of this attitude.
I'm not sure how to make things much clearer: the statement Four Palms has made isn't so much "sod the rest of Florida" as much as "we're sick and tired of how the RTC has handled Floridian reconstruction and if they're not going to do it, we're going to take our own reconstruction into our own hands and see to it ourselves (only, we're going to ask Ireland to back us up on this)". As I see it, all they've really done is put the Floridian Plan into high gear! In stead of waiting for the RTC to hem and haw down in the SE and waiting for Ireland to patiently wait for the RTC to make a move, the people of Four Palms have said "enough: now is the time for everyone to get this or some kind of Plan in action. Here, we have made our stand and are making our move towards self-governance and reconstruction, the ultimate and stated goal of the conquering victors. The rest of you can follow our lead or not." This has been going on for something like four years, and that's really about three years too long -- I mean, how long does the world community think people can live in makeshift relocation camps? Remember how fast North Florida was recovered by the NAL? I really think the Plan for South Florida was originally along a similar timeline. Elemtilas 17:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

2009

I noted that there was a scheduled constitutional convention due in April of this year. That was around 3-4 months ago. Anyone wish to elaborate? Seth 08:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I've answered the above by adding to the Commonwealth of Four Palms article. Hope that answers some pressing questions! Elemtilas 18:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we're still up in the air due to Jan's pending information about the RTC ZOC. BoArthur 18:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

With the RTC, you never know what bizarre (series of conflicting) reaction(s) might issue from various levels of Coronal burocracy. Remember the guy who got his government job after some decades of hearing nothing from officialdom? I wouldn't doubt that sòme portion of the RTC's machinery has not yet even gotten word of the presumed Armistice. I know the rèst of that same machinery hasn't yet bothered to ratify or even acknowledge the Armistice, even though they know about it. It's probably still in Bombaryla's in box. Very possibly, the military hierarchy could issue nearly simultaneous orders to both stand down and attack with full vigor! Elemtilas 02:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
The last news out of the RTC was that the Florida scandal produced a Sejm even more paralyzed than usual. So we can safely assume no progress from that direction. Don't forget that the Greek land deal is also still up in the air. The CVSS minister's response to it, you may remember, was foreceful enough to severely upset some more neutral-minded members of the Commission (like the MR). A censure vote failed to pass in April, but she has been told to please tone it down. But this does mean that various Greek and CVSS officials have also been running around in Florida this summer. Benkarnell 16:33, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Sure. But for such a deal to be taken seriously by C-P, or anyone else, the RTC would have to reinvade, reoccupy and reassert its authority there. They lost that authority back in late 2008. Apart from the now iconic "Lost Battalion" of RTC troops up along the north shore of the island, who are still being provided with groceries and newspapers and the like by the locals, there are no Coronal troops within C-P and no Coronal authorities. I suppose they could try to back-date the agreement -- but that would be like Mexico trying to back-date an agreement selling Texas to France! Elemtilas 01:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Nevertheless, not all nations have recognized C-P, correct? If I were Greece, I'd be trying hard to discourage recognition in order to legitimize the deal. Benkarnell 02:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The RTC being one of the key countries not to have recognised C-P. Probably Toga hasn't either. But I can't really guess how that would much matter. The RTC is one of the "beligerents" in the whole affair, and many other countries around the world really don't have any interest in the region. C-P dóes have the recognition and support of the NAL, Ireland and several other European and Latin American nations (France, CAC, Tejas, LA, etc). I agree -- if Greece really and truly wants to persue a deal made by a general (not the RTC's government) who had either already lost or would soon lose said territory in battle, then yes they should try to convince as many countries as possible that the RTC are the legitimate authorities in the region and that, contrary to fact, there are actually no rebels and no freedom movement and no nascent government in place. If I were the Greek government, I would have sent word to Bambarilya that the Emperor is Not Amused by the sour deal and he'd better repay with interest the money we paid to him in the first place. And that if this doesn't happen, some Greek black-ops lads with sinister looking black bags filled with all sorts wonderful gizmoes will find him, be it in a club or private dinner at home and make sure that various buts of him are injured and broken until he shall have wished that he'd just paid up in the first place. A savvy government would simultaneously be talking about investment opportunities in the new country and its friends -- never hurts to hedge your bets. That way, if Bambarilya wins, they get to keep their land deal; if the C-P wins, Greece might win too by being part of the first investors. But they should hurry, American and other European investors are already talking with the local government... Elemtilas 21:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

2017

At the time I am writing this, we have left South Florida to obscurity for over 8 years. Clearly, as I have read, the situation in this region has not been stable. No one can reasonably postulate that political circumstances could have stayed frozen for almost a decade. I would like to propose some changes that could have taken place from 2009 to 2017. These are certainly not permanent, and I would love to see your ideas too.

The first thing that would probably occur is that the Floridian state-lets would establish some form of central government between them. This would at least be regular conventions of the condados' condes, and thus South Florida would be some sort of loose confederacy. I don't think they could see themselves as being able to exist separately and have many large neighbors next-door, like the NAL and Louisianne. The condados would share a common heritage that has only been recently broken up. Therefore, they would establish this confederacy and would probably use the flag that has already been proposed among them. Most of them don't have their own flags, so would probably use that one if they really did establish a confederacy. Maybe they might have some sort of election among the condes to elect some sort of president of the confederacy; anything is possible.

There are a couple problems for this however; The war has not only deepened ethnic divides but has established new ones. Of course there is the difference between the somewhat English North Florida and the more Hispanic South Florida which of course will never allowed to be unified. But also there is a possibility that in Los Claros there will still exist a significant Seminole population *there*, especially now that it is its ownand separate condado and not divided among other condados. They might oppose this unification. Also, let us remember that the RTC has left a siginificant Vened and possibly Lithuanian population in its occupied regions. Obviously the RTC could not exert direct control on the condos of Rzeba Marze and Costa del Oro, but these condados would have significant immigration from the RTC and these people may oppose the confederacy.

Of course it is unlikely that this confederation doesn't happen, as all of these regions still have a majority Floridian population.

But still considering the modern influx of Veneds in this new country, one may postulate that the Veneds would integrate into Floridian society to some degree. On the other hand, it may become the situation that the Veneds would form some sort of upper class, and the Floridians would form a lower class. But assuming that the hurricanes that happened in this region recently happened *here* also happened *there*, This upper class of Veneds would most likely be destroyed. All Floridians and Veneds would suffer the storms, and thus would have some human will to integrate and help eachother. Nevertheless, the Veneds and Floridians, sharing a country, would eventually have to integrate. I thus postulate that this new hybrid culture would form some sort of hybrid creole, or maybe just one language ends up looking like the other. What do you guys think? Gwaell 4 December 2017 (PST)

Yes, Jesus, that's one of IB's biggest problems: things go cold for 7 or 8 years and everything needs a backtracking. How many world leaders do we have that've been in office since '07-'09? I'll ask that the Facebook group take a look at this. Ha, right around this time when I was young and an inexperienced writer, I tried to get Greece to take over Ireland's position so that it could take over a piece of the New World same as the RTC is hinted at doing. Oy, what an active imagination I had back then. Misterxeight 15:46, 4 December 2017 (PST)

Yeah I feel like I'm also going through that. I have this crazy idea that the Veneds in Florida will develop some distinct culture from the RTC, and even change their language's orthography to somehow match the Castilian orthography. Of course Venedic and Castilian are very different languages and using a Castilian orthography for a language like Venedic is bound to have many irregularities. Nonetheless, I've been spending time converting Venedic words into this crazy test-tube writing system and just seeing what comes out. It is actually pretty interesting, and I've taken much inspiration from Jan Steenbergen's Poilschi. Gwaell

Hmm. I've asked many the same question myself about the status of South Florida in IB (not to mention the Caribbean League...) I agree that there's really no way the Floridian statelets could exist on their own, and that they'd probably have to band together to keep safe from bigger entities. Ditto with your idea of establishing a confederacy.
With all that said, though, I'm not sure how willing the RTC is to let go of its Floridian fiefs. They would probably have to do it at some point, though. Otherwise, they'd run the risk of starting another war, and almost certainly one where they would look more like the aggressors. Maybe the Floridian Confederation is only partially formed. IDK.
I don't think a hybrid creole is forming just yet, though. Give it time. Maybe another 20-30 years (of course, assuming global warming has left any part of Florida by then...) I could see hybridization of culture beginning to take place, though.
Overall, I'd say go for it. I'm quite interested to see what plans you have for South Florida. Juanmartinvelezlinares 17:28, 4 December 2017 (PST)

Alright. The following is my proposal for the current state of South Florida:

In the most extreme case of South Floridian unification, I would say that the condados would merge into 3 or 4 larger pieces within the confederacy. These may be called mancomunidades (commonwealth in English, taken from the F-P's official Floridian title). This could possibly be a way to further unify the condados or at least to simplify the government. Maybe this maneuver is a reaction to the formation of the F-P. If this were to occur, I would definitely say that Rzeba Marze and Costa del Oro would form a mancomunidad, both sharing significant Venedic minorities. Thus, on the east side, there would be two of these commonwealths: the Venedic Florida Commonwealth (working title) and the pre-established F-P. Now specifically inside the V-F (what I'm calling it for convenience, name is flexible), Costa del Oro would clearly dominate Rzeba Marze in size and population. Therefore, to equalize power within this southeastern commonwealth, Costa del Oro may be split into 3 parts, as it was during RTC Occupation. This would counter-act the coast's dominance and mirror the distribution of condados in the F-P.

Each commonwealth would thus have a gran cacique to preside over the local condes.

The southwest is harder to determine. Most likely, all the condados in the southwest would merge into one commonwealth excluding Los Claros. I suspect that Los Claros would have a significant Seminole population *there* and thus would declare itself separate from the southwest commonwealth. In any case, it is clearly the largest and most sparsely populated condado of South Florida, and according to its formal name probably would subscribe to ecotopism.

Another problem arises with this scenario; I believe that the condados in the fore-proposed SW would probably fear Tampa's dominance, as it would most likely have the highest population and thus the most power of the condados. Therefore, the election process of their gran cacique would probably attempt to negate any advantage a Tampa nominee would have over nominees from other regions (of course, this assumes that the Floridians establish a republican government for themselves, which I find very likely). In any case, this commonwealth would most likely form this way because the condados share a common heritage and also were occupied by the same power and thus would not be very far apart from one another. Los Claros would definitely not join, most likely fearing that other condados might conspire to take away its newly gained power.

This then leaves Republica Conchesa by itself. I'm really not sure what would happen. I can confidently say that it will not join Los Claros or the V-F, but the question remains whether it will join the SW or stay by itself. It may even declare independence from South Florida. What do you think?

So now that I believe we have sorted out the internal government of most of this new country, I believe that over the course of its existence from its establishment to now it must begin engaging in foreign relations. To do this, I believe the grandes caciques will find among them some prime minister to at the very least function as a sort of diplomat, or they may establish some diplomatic institution to interact with foreign powers like the NAL and Louisianne. This institution may even become an executive institution in the course of time and will simplify the rules of this country by establishing common law for it. At the very least, it will begin issuing a common currency for South Florida. It seems that South Florida was already on board to do this, as much of this region already had begun minting equivalent currencies. I think that the new country will move to unify these mints to make one peso provisorio. I'm not sure whether it will stay in union with the AÉ£ or change to the NAL£. Whatever it does, I want to ask you guys. Now for me it's getting late at the time of writing this, and I will continue writing tomorrow. For now, ladies and gentlemen, adieu. Gwaell

So I would like to postulate that the South Floridians, if they were to become at least a semi-unitary government, would establish a central government derived from either the old F-C or the NAL.

Now I believe I have gotten through the boring part of describing the current state of South Florida, I would like to get to the parts that interest me far more.

I anticipate a wide cultural change among the Floridians and Veneds, or at least radical writers and philosophers proposing reforms. Specifically, I believe some radical Veneds might fully embrace Floridian culture, and would desire that their language look more like Floridian. I would like to propose that these individuals would devise an alternate orthography for Venedic. I have actually toyed with this idea very often and come up with my own orthography for Venedic that looks like Floridian. I have a system of rules but with many irregularities so I think it would be more helpful simply to compare the differing languages and orthographies.

Floridian:
Padre nôstro, que estás en el cêlo.
Santificado sea tu nombre.
Benga tu reyno.
Hágase tu voluntad en la têrra como en el cêlo.
Danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día.
Perdona nôstras ofensas, como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden.
No nos dejes caer en tentación i lívranos del mal.
Amén.

Floridian Venedic var.1:
Påtrê nostrû, qualû ês en cyalur, santêfcatû si tuey numên
Ovênn tuey rêyn.
Fåça si tua vlontayt, comód en cyalu sîc i sur têrê
Da nóv odzey nostrû pañ cotîdzanû.
I dêmêyt nóv nostrê dêuta, comud i nu dêmêtymû suór dêutoryur.
I ñe endûyç nos en têntaceyn, uta lîvra nos dê malu.
Amen.

Floridian Venedic var.2
Potrê nostri, quali yesh en chalur, sanchêfcati sî tvey numên.
Ovêñ tvey rêñ.
Fotza sî tua vlontaych, comud en chalu shic i sur chêhrê.
Da nuv odzey nostri pañ cotîdzani.
I dêmêych nuv nostrê dêvta, comud i nu dêmêytmi svur dêvtoryur.
I ñe endûch nosh en têntaceñ, uta lîvra nosh dê malu.
Amen.

Wenedyk:
Potrze nostry, kwały jesz en czałór, sąciewkaty si twej numię.
Owień twej rzeń.
Foca si twa włątać, komód en czału szyk i sur cierze.
Da nów odzej nostry pań kocidzany.
I dziemieć nów nostrze dziewta, komód i nu dziemiećmy swór dziewtorzór.
I nie endycz nosz en ciętaceń, uta liwra nosz dzie mału.
Amen.

Now of course these orthographies I have constructed are WIP, and I can't even decide which one would become standard if any. The distinction I think is clear, though, that var. 1 focuses on reading ability, and var.2 focuses on speaking ability. What do you guys think of them? --Gwaell 12:49, 13 December 2017 (PST)

Since I'm not on often enough (popping in randomly one every 4-5 months) I'm willing to back way off of the South Florida issue. I do believe that a Vened-Floridian hybrid culture is not likely to happen within just under a decade, and we've never properly established just how strong a presence the Veneds and Irish are in Florida. Are they heavy handed with tens of thousands of soldiers and contractors running about? Or is the military occupation largely over now? While I have been far too absent from the wiki to have a proper say in this, I contend that the the smaller communities carved from the eastern half would probably (in the end) submit to reunification with the western half but how this plays out is unknown to me. Do they simply come back together? Do they attempt to maintain some semblance of autonomy from the western half? Or do they come together to form a Floridian Confederation akin to the Holy Roman Empire? --Seth 05:36, 18 December 2017 (PST)
Hey, Seth, you're back!!!! We missed you. 'Fraid we've been running a skeleton crew lately.
Um, I obviously can't speak for anyone involved at this point, but it seems that the Veneds were established as a fairly heavy-handed occupation force, going as far as to seemingly attempt colonisation of Miami, while the Irish were much more hands-off and have basically left Florida. West Florida (and probably de facto Four Palms) have probably been unified in some sort of Floridian Confederation, or possibly even joined the Caribbean League. I have no idea about East Florida, though; for now I've been assuming that the Erdeka has refused to leave. But at some point they'll probably have to; they're strongly disliked in Florida and I would imagine that public pressure is mounting on Veneda to leave and end their program of colonisation. Juanmartinvelezlinares 09:16, 18 December 2017 (PST)
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