Germany and Prussia were "planned" as SNORist. Are you going to write down why they and the Curonian state etc were never brought to fruition? BoArthur 12:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
- Because Russia did not conquer these lands in time and later was forced to relinquish them by the allies (Treaty of Visby which made the RTC neutral and such). Curonian State would have been in the Curonian Spit and other suroundings of the Curonian Lagoon, where by the time in question there were still relatively many Courlandians (who actually were not Curonians and spoke a language similar to Latvian, but, of course, for propaganda purposes they could have been titled Curonians after the ancient tribe). Curonian State might have actually been established, or it mighthave been a province of Courland/Latvia before the Treaty of Visby. Prussian State would have been that of Baltic Prussians - an ethnicity that is no longer existing in the real world, but still present in IB. All these *plans* would have been based on the work of some influential Russian politologist (<write in the name you like>), created in 1945, 1946, 1947 or so. This work would have been the reason why Russia created the puppet states instead of direct occupation as was in the start of the war (that politologist would have suggested that such principle was better). That work would have also suggested "The order of the SNORist Europe", which would have been the most "optimistic" suggestion of where the Russians would conquer. According to it the Snorist states were planned as far as the pre-war German-French border as it was expected that Russia would conquer whole Germany and only the occupied territories of France, Lombardy and so on would be given back to those respective states, while in the rest puppet SNORist regimes would have been created. Abdul-aziz 12:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
- I'm not that clear on Russia. I have this tickle that says this wasn't necessarily the goal of SNOR like the USSR...but I'm not sure, so let's get Jan I to take a looky. BoArthur 13:21, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
- Its possible that they might have been planned to served as a buffer zone between the empire and western europe. It would probably have been more in the sense of client states then true SNORist regime considering the pan-slavism inherent to it. --Marc Pasquin 17:39, 2 May 2006 (PDT)
- I think it had more to do with business, as there was no Cold War *there*. They probably set them up so as to: 1/ get supplies to Russia from easier ports (ie Mediteranean), and 2/ Pan-Slavism. "Protection" from the west just seems unlikely due to the loss of a cold war. Seth 00:51, 3 May 2006 (PST)
Under my view, one of the reasons was the wish to expand the Slavic states. In order to expand them and expell the local non-Slavic population elsewhere so that lands would remain fully Slavic, the Russians annexed made other countries puppet states and made them to accept laws similar to the Act of Return. German State for example was needed so that Germans from eastern Germany would be relocated there, while in the Eastern Germany it was planned to create Prussian State, Lithuania Minor Governorate of the Lithuanian State (as a place where the Lithuanians deported from the newly-established Skuodia or the former Lithuanian territories of Belarus could be relocated and in addition as a propaganda measure). So, under this idea, Belarus, Ukraine were expanded in expense of Lithuania and Veneda for example, while these respective countries would have been somewhat expanded in expense of Germany (but not so much as the ammount of territories they have lost of course). Some other states would have been Slavic (Czechoslavia for example). Defense was another reason probably - even without cold war, it is always good to be able to defend borders and to have various not powerful puppet states on borders rather than possible allies of hostile powers (all non-Slavic snorist states were generally made federative and weak). Resources, access to pors and so on could have been reasons as well. Abdul-aziz 02:18, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
- For what it is worth, here's my input!
- First of all, we need to distinguish between SNOR ideology and Vissarionov's policies, which were rather pragmatic. Ideologically speaking, things were pretty clear: freedom for all Slavs! Practically, that would mean a quasi-independent state for every Slavic nation. Those states would be led by some SNOR clone, and the ultimate long-term purpose would be the creation of one huge and strong Slavic state. Some kind of Soviet Union, in other words, based on ethnicity.
- Who was Slavic and who was not depends pretty much on whom you were talking to. At some point in 1930s or 1940s the SNOR adopted the view that Latvians, Lithuanians and (Baltic) Prussians were in fact Slavs as well, albeit to a lesser degree than for example the Ukrainians or the Bulgarians. I'm pretty sure they thought the same about the Moldavians. See the article about Trofim Nemirov. You can compare this whole line of thinking with *here*'s Croatian Ustaša regime, which promoted the theory of the Croats being slavicised Goths. Not commonly accepted, but still promoted by some, was the view that the Veneds and the Slevans were actually of Slavic descent too, a preposterous idea of course!
- The creation of a chain of independent Slavic states is also what Vissarionov was after. And that's basically what happened in Nassland, Latvia, Lithuania, Skuodia, Belorussia, and Ukraine (not sure about Estonia). For the rest:
- Vissarionov had similar plans for Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria, but the creation of the CSDS made that impossible.
- I don't know what his plans were with Transcarpathia. In Ukraine, they are commonly considered Ukrainians, and that's what they undoubtedly come closest to. But many Rusyns disagree with that point of view; part of them considers themselves a distinct East Slavic nation. Given the fact that Moskalophile tendencies have always been strong in the region, I think the SNOR may well have advocated the view that they were actually Russians! In other words, they may have supported an independent statelet rather than giving it to Ukraine.
- I don't think he would have made much of an issue out of tiny Slavic minorities like the Sorbs in Bohemia, the Kashubians in Veneda, or the Slovincians in Preymeren. On the page, I saw a "Sorb State" mentioned, but I honestly am not so sure about that. It may of course have been a local initiative that was welcomed and supported by Vissarionov; but I don't think it was high on his political agenda.
- But, apart from these Slavic states, Vissarionov also projected the creation of a cordon sanitaire, a safety belt of non-Slavic satellite states that would separate the core of the Slavic Union from the rotten West. And here we have: the Grand-Duchy of Veneda, possibly Bohemia, Slevania, Hungary, Oltenia, and Muntenia. Because snorist Russia and the CSDS were sworn enemies, and with the future creation of Bulgarian, Serbian and Croatian states in mind, Russia was also interested in including Greece, Albania and Dalmatia as well. Possibly Finland, too.
- As for including Germany in this belt, I have to say that that is a definite no. Russia surely was interested in weakening Germany as much as possible (and from that point of view it was in agreement with the rest of the Allies), but not in turning it into a satellite state. It might actually have gotten that idea if it got really far into Germany (which might have resulted in the creation of a GDR-like kind of thing), but it didn't. What it probably did, and here I follow Abdul-Aziz's ideas, is that it tried to compensate its newly acquired satellite states with pieces of German territory (a bit like shifting Poland's frontiers *here*). It might have been interested in snorifying Preymeren and Danzig, but given the fact that these were liberated by the Scandinavians and not the Russians, that's pretty much a non-issue.
- —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 06:12, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
The way I see it, the planned states are the states that were planned under the mentioned book that was published during the Second Great War by some influential member of Russian government (politologist or raceologist). That book, probably called something like "The Liberated Europe", "The New Order of Europe" or "Europe After the War", would have supported the theory of partitioning Europe into many ethnically based states and promoting regionalism inside those sates (as, supposedly, most of nations (with the exception of the Russians, according to the book) were artificially created). In that book the optimist belief would be covered where the final western border of the "New Order" would have been the western border on Germany (and perhaps in the epilogue the possibilities to expand the New Order "peacefully" would be discussed). Now, this book would have been used in Russia for propaganda during the later part of the Second World War and this propaganda. But indeed, what Vissarionov had planned in reality (probably he did not expect to conquer this much area) would be unknown now and such things as werether the Prussian State, Curonian State, Kashubian State, Sorbian State, Czechoslavian State would have been created would be being in discussion by present historians. Abdul-aziz 06:44, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
- As for Sorbian State, I am quite sure that gen. Swoboda and magnificent leader of Russia planned to unite all those small Slavic and Slavoid nations on extent of BK into one - Czechoslavia (as the name suggests), because Vissarionov argued that individual states of each nation would be too small and would not serve the purpose of sanitary cordon quite well. Jan II. 23:04, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
- Ok, I have removed the Sorbian State. Abdul-aziz 08:40, 4 May 2006 (PDT)
Back in the SNOR
Um...this seems a tad redundant. A very similar song (in some ways) was the breakout hit of the group NoMoreEagleZ, becoming something of an anthem to the Anti-Snorist Movement. The song was "Far From the S.N.O.R." NoMoreEagleZ was intended as the IB analog of the Beatles. Mind you, we have two Bill Clintons so... But it seems likely somebody would have noticed and commented on any such resemblence. Zahir 09:41, 7 March 2007 (PST)
- Oh. I hadn't noted that. :( I guess delete it. BoArthur 15:28, 7 March 2007 (PST)
Besides Iraaq, was there any oher country that adopted SNORism, without being Slavophiles? Misterxeight 23:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Estonia, Latvia, Slevania, Hungary, the Romanias, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Turkestan, Uyguristan... Sure, they didn't really "adopt" it, it was simply imposed on them. But there's an American Snorist Party, too, albeit a small one! —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The argument could be made that the Baltic nations that accepted it weren't Slavs... BoArthur 17:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Azerbaijan and Georgia
How did they become SNORist? There really doesn't seem to be any reason to draw them into GWII, which would basically preclude the only reason for them becoming SNORist states in the first place. Juan Martin Velez Linares 9:20, 22 September 2015 (CDT)
Rather than removing them, let's put them down on the planned but failed states. Specifically the Liv and Ruhnu states. BoArthur 10:28, 30 October 2015 (PDT)
- Sounds good to me. Did so with the Swedish State (Ruhnu). The Liv state seems to be another name for the Livonian State, though. Any information on that one? Juan Martin Velez Linares 16:54, 30 Oct 2015 (CDT)