I am not sure if it is already so maybe, but what I propose is that the Roman Empire would have expanded more to the northeast than it did in the real world, thus the northern and eastern boundaries of the empire would run at the north of modern-day real world Lithuania and through real world Belarus and Ukraine. This would explain several things, such as:
- The birth of Venedic language (Veneda is outside the area that was controlled by the Romans in the real world).
- The Skuodians - under my suggestion, it would be generally more plausible if instead of migrating on themselves for some reason in 3rd century, the Skuodian nation would have appeared after the Romans resettled some Slavs westwards to the Baltic sea (modern place of Skuodia) in order to defend the northern Roman boundary. I believe in the real world that was how the Serbian nation was born.
- The reason why Baltic pagan faith remained strong - with the existance of Roman rule in the past, the Lithuanians, Prussians and others would have been exposed to the "civilization" about a thousand years earlier than they had been. Roman rule would ave been relatively brief and thus would not have changed the local paganism, however it would have introduced some matters of civilization and somewhat altered the religion, maybe as well make the first scriptures of it possible. As well, Roman rule would have consolidated the area more and the first Lithuanian, Prussian, Samogitian, Sudovian states would have been created much earlier (this as well being the reason why Prussian nation survived in IB unlike the real world, and same for the Sudovian nation). Although eventually the Lithuanian state would still be attacked by the Teutonic order, and the union with Veneda would be made, attempts by missionaries and such to christianise the majority of population would have failed due to the fact that religion would have been established more strongly (with scriptures and such probably) and later they thus would have been abandoned not wanting to alienate the people. As well, the earlier formation of the Prussian nation would have been the reason why the Teutons didn't manage to Germanise it. Abdul-aziz 06:52, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- Of course, you would also have to consider what the expansion of the Empire would do to the Empire (overstreaching manpower, new reasources etc). Also, the impact that the barbarians (huns, Goths, Vandals etc.) would have on the new super-Roman Empire. --Sikulu 07:01, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- this would pro primo brake few QSS and pro secundo would be vastly unrealistic. Venedic and Slevan langauges are explained by existence of bigger Pannonia+Sarmantia and existence of Marcomania province, which fact is connected to Marcus Aurelius and War with Marcomans. I am working on it with one of our best Czech romanologists, dr. Sedo, who is master of knowledge about Romans behind Danube. We had a difficult time to get Romans behind Danube to be settled there... ;) you would hardly find reasons for them to go there where you would like to have them. ;)
- I am not sure if Skuodians had anything to do with Romans... AFAIK, Pavel never mentioned anything. They are just other north Slavic guys, with no connection to Slavo-romanic Veneds and Slevans. Just my two groats. Jan II. 08:09, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- Nothing stoping Roman influence spreading up there though. I'm sure we could manage some sort of compromise. --Sikulu 08:15, 1 March 2006 (PST)
While I think your ideas are very interesting indeed, Abdul-Aziz, I have to agree with Jan II that it would cause more problems that it solves. First of all, expanding the Roman Empire to such an extent that it would border the Baltic Sea would indeed be a serious stretch on QSS. Apart from that, IB has certain restrictions regarding the size and power of the Roman Empire - for example, Germania's history cannot be altered before a certain date; otherwise, it would jeopardise the existence of languages like Brithenig. And then, there's the question of realism. I'd be eager to see what Jan and Dr. Sedo come up with.
In any case, I think the three territories mentioned by Jan II is about all we can afford. But there is possibly some space regarding their exact borders. I recall having seen a map of the Roman Empire in IB, but I can't find it. My idea was that the original homeland of the Veneds is present-day Slevania and Bohemia rather than Veneda itself. After that, they moved Northward for some reason, but note that even today the extent of Venedic-speaking territory is smaller than the extent of Polish-speaking territory *here*. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 08:57, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- I was the maker of the original map. I'll upload it and attach it to this page.BoArthur
Red is initial, yellow, further expansion, green, even further, blue, more still and purple final growth before the empire began to collapse. BoArthur
Excellent! Yes, that's the map I was talking about. Well, perhaps a fourth little province called "Transcarpathia" wóuld be imaginable? I must confess that this ancient history is definitely not my strongest side, nor my main field of interest. In other words, I happily rely on others more knowledgable than myelf, in this case particularly Jan II and Benct. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 13:21, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- The suggestion by Dr. Sedo is pictured on the attached map.
- The most important thing, which Dr. Sedo suggested is, that Romans can easily survive in Marcomania and Pannonia till arrival of Huns in 440 AC; Dacia and Sarmatia are abandoned in 270 AC cos of different reasons. The territory of Pannonia might be later divided into Pannonia Superior, Interior and Transcarpathia. So, as Jan I said, the Veneds were formerly living in Transcarpathia but were pushed by Huns more north, part of the remained below Tatras and former Slevans, part were above and created Veneds (pretty nice etnogenesis). Then came Slavs from north-east. Jan II. 23:41, 1 March 2006 (PST)
- Jan, it's not loading. Could you upload it to the wiki? BoArthur
- Of course, in the southwestern corner of Macedonia - (almost?) overlapping with the nortwestern corner of Achaea - would be the region described below (the text source is here):
- Roman domination began in 146 BCE during the Third Punic War. In the year 40 BCE, with the division of the Roman Empire, the region now known as Xliponia fell under the rule of Antonius as part of the province of Macedonia. The principal settlement there was called Colonia Argentea Plebeia on account of the plentiful silver mines in the region. From Plebeia comes the root Xlip- of the country's modern name. The region was also well-known for its lead mines, its wool and its excellent wine.
- In 30 BCE the decisive Battle of Actium, where Agrippa defeated Cleopatra, was fought very close to the southern border of CAP.
- I invoke QSS! Kyrmse 12:50, 17 April 2006 (PDT)
interesting recent archaeological discovery
looks like we are far closer to the reality, than we thought regarding the extent of roman empire to parts north of danube. recently, it was found that romans had a stable military camp and settlement more than 90 km north (jevíčko) of the locality formerly seen as the northern stable roman settlement above danube (mušov). Jan II. 04:12, 15 October 2016 (PDT)