If you add here's populations from Washington, Idaho, Oregon and British Columbia they only equal 14.5 million. How do we get 48 million *there*? BoArthur 20:40, 12 Jul 2005 (PDT)
- lots and lots of cold, boring winters nights ?--Marc Pasquin 19:47, 13 Jul 2005 (PDT)
So ribald! >:) BoArthur 21:40, 13 Jul 2005 (PDT)
History of Ecotopia
I assume that Oregon was the first country that went Ecotopic. If so, when? I need to know so that I can confirm the independence of the Malucos from Bornei-Filipinas. Boreanesia 07:42, 3 Aug 2005 (PDT)
- Oregon uses the order family-name personal-name (patronym)--Wayne Chevrier 13:13, 25 March 2006 (PST)
- Where did that custom come from? English and Russian cultures both place family names last, and I wouldn't think that the Japanese would've had that much influence Nik 20:54, 25 March 2006 (PST)
Was it ever discussed or decided why Oregon is not a regular member of the CoN? I always feel that Oregon, the òther British land in North American, is left out when I think of Britain and its legacy in IB's world.
I have Oregon marked as an associate member, mostly because I wasn't sure whether or not they'd be a full member. Elemtilas 15:00, 20 January 2006 (PST)
- I think it was a great travesty of history, and they got overlooked. Since that time, they've just developed on their own, and while they appreciate the Associate status, they're quite content to live on their own. ;) But that's my deux centîmes. BoArthur 15:16, 20 January 2006 (PST)
- Maybe they didn't feel like been part of the commonwealth ? Since some members are not british, not every anglo-celtic country need be a member either.--Marc Pasquin 08:29, 21 January 2006 (PST)
- There are no ethnic requirements, of course, for membership. I was just wondering why they have the status they have. In other words, there's probably something underlying "not feeling like it". Elemtilas 08:33, 21 January 2006 (PST)
What if there was some war fought over the territory? Perhaps the North American League attempted to exert authority over Oregon under the justification of Oregon having been Hudson Bay Company lands, or something similar? Alternately, maybe there'd been a war between Britain and Russia over the territory that was settled by an agreement of neutrality. That might explain why Oregon went its own way rather than remaining close to England Nik 20:43, 21 January 2006 (PST)
- The war in question could have been a war of independence (we don't seem to have had many of those). The ecotopic aspect to the country would give itself well to it. There could also have been some backing from alyeska, a de facto coalition of forces or just some philosophical inspiration.--Marc Pasquin 15:02, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- This has the potential to be really, really interesting. Zahir 15:47, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Another question is, independence from whom? Given that Cyrillic is used, it may be that, historically, Oregon was dominated by Russia. Perhaps they rebelled against Russia at some point in the 19th century (perhaps induced by the large amount of English immigration?) with support from the NAL (it would have to have been prior to the First Russo-Japanese War, or Japan would've acquired it along with Alyaska and Meidji-do. Nik 16:41, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Funny, I saw it the other way. British subjects, induced by russian immigrants (and later, russian revolutionaries) decide to throw down their shackles and pick up their leafy garlands.--Marc Pasquin 16:58, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Or both. The FK and Russia each claiming the territory and the locals saying "A pox on both your houses!" Zahir 17:24, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Well, I would imagine that Russian must have been dominant at one point for the English-speakers to adopt Cyrllic, rather than retaining Roman (even then it seems a stretch, Russian immigrants *here* don't use Roman to write their language after all!).
- Oregon in 1904 must've either been A) independent, B) British-ruled, or C) a Russo-British Condominium. Were it Russian, I can't see why it would escape Japanese rule. If it were a Condominium, then there might well be a clause in the treaty that would've required the FK to consent to any change in its status and, for whatever reason, the British prefered to keep Russia as the partner rather than Japan (perhaps because Russia had little effective power, and they feared Japan would take a greater role in administering it?).
- Hmm ... an idea that's forming in my head - After the First Russo-Japanese War, Japan took Russia's Pacific and North American territories (QSS), which included Alyaska. Russia's Condominium territories, on the other hand (Roshiya and Oregon), were a trickier issue. Alta California was willing to continue the Condominiumship with Japan instead of Russia as the partner. Oregon, however, was another matter. Three possibilities:
- The Federated Kingdoms did not wish to have Japan as their partner in that territory, fearing that Japan would take a more hands-on approach. Instead, an agreement is made wherein Russia will renounce its share of Oregonian administration, leaving the FK as sole power. Perhaps some sort of compensation is made by the FK to Japan. With no condominium partner, the FK begins to exert greater authority in the territory, maybe there are even talks of annexing it to the NAL as a new province. This leads to a revolution
- Japan does, indeed, assume the partnership over Oregon. It has been established that many of the former Shogunate officials fled to Oregon after the Meiji Restoration. The old Shogun was still alive, in fact, in 1905. He and his supporters would fear Japanese rule. They had, after all, fled from the newly restored Imperial government, and now that same government has come after them! Suppose that they formed an alliance with other discontent groups (including English colonists fearing a divided government, Russia having excercised little effective power formerly) to proclaim full independence. After a War of Oregonian Independence, the newly-proclaimed Republic of Oregon is recognized, probably not ecotopian at the time
- The NAL convinces the FK to transfer their share of the Condominiumship to themselves. They begin to rule the territory as, effectively, a colonial power, leading to great animosity towards the NAL, and the Commonwealth as a whole (perhaps they refuse to join the Commonwealth for fear that it would prove only the first step in a renewed NAL domination?). Eventually, Oregon revolts and declares independence. Russia's share of the Condominiumship could either be surrendered prior to the First Russo-Japanese War, or after said war, be renounced. Or, it could even have been transferred to Japan, which might further enflame secessionist sentiments. C is my favored option Nik 18:26, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Another advantage of C is that it explains the use of Cyrillic. If Russian and English were both common, then Cyrillic and Roman would both be familiar to both groups (perhaps the two scrips were, at one point, used somewhat interchangeably, so that, though Roman was more common with English, and Cyrillic with Russia, it was not unheard-of to see English written in Cyrillic or Russian in Roman). Suppose that, after breaking away from the NAL, the Oregonians decided to renounce the "English letters"? Nik 18:34, 22 January 2006 (PST)
I'll confess to being just a tad "lost." You describe options 1, 2 and 3, then say "C" is your favorite?????? Assuming you mean "3" (and my apologies for being so snarky), then methinks that is the one I'd favor as well. An option to consider is that the whole War of Independence might take place during the "failed presidencies" of the First Great War. Zahir 19:06, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- Oops. Indeed, I'd started out labeling the options A B and C, and then decided to change it to numbers, and forgot to change C to 3 in my comments ... An interesting idea about the timing Nik 21:03, 22 January 2006 (PST)
- How does this sound? Oregon becomes a unique fusion of Native, Japanese and Russian cultures but officially part of the Russian Empire until the Russo-Japanese War.
- I only really have a problem with this. I have no problem with Alaska being Russian, but Oregon was British / Northwest Co. / HBCo. territory. The country is English speaking and was apparently connected in some way with England & America. I don't think we can just magic away the primary basis for the country's history or foundations of its culture! Elemtilas 19:34, 20 February 2006 (PST)
- Okay, good point. (I actually had a long reply the other night written out but my browser crashed...rrrrrrrrr). What if the FK Commonwealth in effect "owned" Oregon but there were large Japanese and Russian minorities, perhaps as much as forty percent of the population? The former would include the many Shogunate officials. Thus the established culture is English/Scots, but with a heft dose of Native and Russian with a further infusion of Japanese. The NAL offers to take over administration of the territory as the "commonwealth member on the spot" in the wake of the Russo-Japanese War. Make sense? Zahir 08:58, 22 February 2006 (PST)
- I could certainly see a Japanese influece -- and frankly, I think it would be vèry cool if English speaking Oregon had adopted some official practices from Japan (official clothing or similar), along with its unusual use of Cyrillic (which frankly I think was done out of protest more than any great influence from Russia or Alaska!). I really don't see how so much of the population would be Russian. There weren't even a 1000 Russians all told in all of Alaska in the mid-19th century, and out of those, only a couple dozen were women! See this article for some interesting figures. No, I don't see how Alaska would be a great influence until something more economical comes along for more Russians to go there. I suspect that Alaska won't become anything more than a backwater until the XX century. I dó think Sitka / New Archangel should be the capital of Alaska *there*, as it was *here* til 1906. There were cèrtainly more Brits in Oregon than Russians in Alaska by that time! Elemtilas 16:08, 22 February 2006 (PST)
- Problem. It is QSS that Oregon uses Cyrillic. Now, nobody just ups and uses a whole 'nother alphabet without a reason. Lets make that a damn good reason. The simplest way to account for that is to say there were in fact plenty of Russians there. Plenty. Yes, that is different from the history of the American NorthWest *here* but isn't that the point? I see only three ways of explaining Oregon using Cyrillic: (1) A whole lot of Russians, (2) They don't and we declare QSS changed in this instance, or (3) Something else. I honestly don't see what #3 could be but I'll all ears. Zahir 19:46, 22 February 2006 (PST)
- I don't see the use of Cyrillic as all that problematic: it was chosen (either by me or John Cowan) on a whim and we didn't see any great problem with it. We know so little about Orgeon that some sensible solution could easily be devised.
- The "point" isn't necessarily to have difference for difference sake. This is a problem that a project like this faces all the time: do we chosse something simply cos it's different? Or do we try to take something that is different and bang it around so that it turns out to be similar to *here*?
- If you posit that Cyrillic was chosen on account of there being lots of Russians, then it would surely be móre likely that Russian itself would be the natural choice for a national language. That goes against QSS. The fact is that Oregon has been understood to be English speaking (was once a British possession) and that Cyrillic was *chosen*. Cyrillic in Alaska was a natural evolution, on account of the place being a Russian territory and governance being done in Russian (even if the majority of the population are Natives and Americans). Cyrillic in Oregon is not so natural an evolution, but the explanation has to be squared with what little is known about the place.
- #3: partial assimilation of the anglo-saxon population.--Marc Pasquin 17:13, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Assimilation how? How (and why) would an anglo-saxon majority assimilate in the direction of a tiny minority, so much so as to abandon their own alphabet in favor of a different one? Unless the Russians were not a tiny minority but a sizable one, especially in a land that had no majority, ethnically speaking. That would lead to everyone assimilating with everyone else, all the more quickly if under what they perceived as pressure from the NAL/Commonwealth. Zahir 17:26, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- You don't need to be a majority to assimilate another ethnic group, all you need is to be the one in power.--Marc Pasquin 17:32, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Exactly: this is how it is that Russian is official in Alaska, and Cyrillic is used there even for English and Brithenig.
- Okay so then who's in power? The Anglo-Saxons or the Russians? According to you, that would be the Russians. According to Elemtilas it has to be the Anglos. You see why this is so frustrating? Zahir 18:13, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- It's only frustrating if we assume the situation to be a simple "this or that" one. We assume that choice of alphabet is simply a matter of who has either numerical superiority or political power.
- We have two facts before us: 1) Oregon is an English speaking country and 2) Oregon uses the Cyrillic alphabet. (How could we have forseen this discussion when we chose Cyrillic!?)
- Thìs is what IB is about: choosing how to explain the given facts without either caving in to creating difference for difference sake or creating an overly simple explanation.
- The russians don't have to be in power *now*, they just need to have been in power long enough for the use of cyrilic to become part of the culture. As Oregon is a bit of a "revolutionary" country, there may be no particular incentive toward standardisation with the rest of the anglo-saxons comunity nowaday and might even be considered a badge of pride.
- Spelling reform? Nik 22:37, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- This is getting somewhere: we know this about Oregon too, that it is "different" from the other British countries. There was some kind of isolation going on.
- The russians having been in power incidently doesn't mean that this would have been an apartheid style country. If they were there first (as far as european are concerned anyway) they could have set up a few fur trading posts that employed trappers from other nations. The anglos could have been (and still be) the most widespread ethnic group within oregon but they could have represented (for the sake of argument) only 30%. In this multicultural environment, elements of the various cultures would have mingled with cyrilic (as the written language of bureaucracy) becoming widespread. --Marc Pasquin 18:24, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Marc, that makes perfect sense to me. Does anyone have any objections? Zahir 18:31, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Yes: that the Russians were "in power". It counters what little was established already. I agree that it makes for an easy and sensible answer though: but I don't think that particular answer fits the particular circumstances. There is probably a very good reason why this particular topic has waited for years before being looked into... Elemtilas 20:01, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- At this time, fighting broke out, in effect turning Oregon into a war zone. The NAL, under a somewhat expansionist administration, intervenes to "stop the bloodshed" (this would be during the Undefined#12 General Moderator). But what it results in is a certain stalemate, because neither the Russians nor the Japanese are entirely sure they want Oregon, especially if they have to fight the NAL to get it. Negotiations on this issue drag out, with the idea increasingly floated that Oregon be (as described above) at part of the Commonwealth, administered by the NAL with a "special relationship" to both Japan and Russia. So far, so good. Except no one asked the Oregonians, who hate and loathe this idea. In fact, this serves to unite them. Oregon becomes to the NAL what Northern Ireland is to the UK *here* (kinda sorta). Things reach a major head when Acting General Moderator Jeremiah Jennings Bryan diverts American resources away from the First Great War to "crushing this ungodly rebellion" once and for all. It does not work, becoming a disaster which helps elect Gwrthiern ffeil Gwilim in 1917 following Bryan's single year in office. Home Rule is granted, partially because some NAL politicians believe Oregon witll collapse without anger at the NAL to united them. But they are proven wrong. Does that sound workable? Zahir 18:09, 20 February 2006 (PST)
- By in large, I like this part of the solution quite a lot. Elemtilas 20:01, 23 February 2006 (PST)
How does this sound then? Oregon, although part of the FK Commonwealth officially, has a population of roughly equal parts Anglo, Russian and Native. The Natives, lacking a written language of their own, adopt Cyrillic. For purposes of pure practicality, the Anglo Administrators use Cyrillic also, while retaining English as a spoken language. Eventually the Meiji administrators relocate there, and also as a matter of practicality start to learn the Anglo-Cyrillic combo. As matters deteriorate, with General Moderator Tomos Armstrong Kuster deciding exert "American Authority," the Oregonians become united. Zahir 20:29, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Actually, it was the Tokugawa leaders who fled to Oregon Nik 22:37, 23 February 2006 (PST)
- Oops. I knew that. Sorry. Zahir 07:13, 24 February 2006 (PST)
- I don't think Oregon was ever part of the Empire (certainly not the Commonwealth) -- As I understand it, that's what the whole Oregon War thing was over, right?, American intervention contrary to Oregonian wishes? I réally doubt there were enough Russians in Oregon early enough for them to have had any tangible effect based on political power or weight of culture. If they had those kinds of numbers and/or were in political control, then I'd expect the official language to be Russian, not English. There were bárely a 1000 Russians in Alaska in the late XIX century; and we've seen no good reason to suppose that Oregon had any significant Russian population or influence. Keep in mind that the oldest facts about the place are English speaking, generally British-American in origin, but having chosen Cyrillic as the mode of expression. I have no problems with the Natives adopting Cyrillic. Perhaps the Oregonians adopted it unofficially as a means of making it easier to deal with the Natives. I have no problem with the Oregonians uniting against American aggression -- it makes sense given the whole Oregon War thing. Perhaps it is at this time that Cyrillic becomes actually official. Elemtilas 22:06, 24 February 2006 (PST)
- Okay, I'll bite. Why couldn't there be significant numbers of Russians in Oregon? At the very least there have to be enough of them for the Native Tribes to adopt Cyrillic. And Oregon is right next to a chunk of land that most certainly is part of the Russian Empire--Alaskya. And according to you, who else settled in Oregon? Okay, the Tokugawa bureaucrats, but before them? Whose flag was flying over the largest city? According to the article, it was a combo or the Hudson Trading Company and Russian Companies. Zahir 07:56, 25 February 2006 (PST)
Well, whatever. Turn it Russian for all I care.Basically, what I'm saying is not that there can't be a large number of Russians, but that it doesn't make much sense for there to be, given what has been known of the place. But it's not for me to say -- this is Wayne's manor, and it's really for him to be in the middle of this rather than me. My answer to who settled in Oregon is simple: Americans (but certainly not to the exclusion of anyone else). I haven't seen any indication in what Wayne has written about or from Oregon that indicates either a strong Russian or a strong Japanese influence. My answer to whose flag flies over the largest city: the flag of Oregon. Is that a surprise? Elemtilas 10:46, 26 February 2006 (PST)
What is Known
I looked up the very earliest version of Oregon here at the Wiki and what it says is that the natives adopted Cyrillic from Russian Missionaries. The article itself indicates Russian Fur Trading companies and the Hudson Bay Company were both instrumental in the settling of Oregon. I've also done a search on the conculture list and come up with the following:
- Jan 4, 2004 - Oregon: The Government of Oregon sent a large contingent of the Humanitarian Brigade(aprrox. Peace Corp) and military to provide aid to the cunami stricken areas, drinking water, shelter, forensics, totaling over a crore dollars(Oregon $ 100,00,000(approx $80 million Canadian/$65 million US) A major interest is to get experience for the cunami expected to hit Oregon anytime(in the next 300 years) and to prevent epidemics(Oregon has issues with communicable diseases)
- Nov 6, 2004 - According to Wayne (regarding Jaime Bush): Oregon did try him for crimes against humanity, and found the charges 'not
proven.' Oregon claims criminal jurisdiction over: acts by Oregonian citizens, acts in Oregon, acts against Oregonian citizens, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. If the FC still existed, they would extradite as he was a citizen of the FC, but it doesn't, and he doesn't claim citizenship in any of the successor states. If there had been evidence that he personally had been guilty of more than being a true believer in the FC's state ideology, he would have been convicted, and imprisoned, probably on Arisizabal I.(northern coastal area, 300 days a year rain, not pleasant).
- Feb 27, 2004 - (According to Wayne) - The name of the country in Cyrillic is based the pronounciation. The word on the flag(which is not the national flag, but merely of one of the political sodalities (appoximately: party) should be oIkotopIja(I being iota/Ukrainian i, ja being one letter)from the original greek etymology(oikotopia)
- Aug 24, 2003 - (According to Ferko) - Tk'amlups, Oregon - Thirty thousand people - fully a third of the
population - have been evacuated from their homes in the city of Q'aluwna as the conflagration that has been raging for days has entered the city limits, and consumed a recently-built subdivision. The fire, which was started by a lightning strike, is one of nearly 900 raging in Oregon at this time. Firefighting crews have been brought in from all over Oregon, from cities as distant as Cranbrook and Seattle.
- July 7, 2003 - (According to Wayne) - The shogunate did not survive, it fell after a short war against the
modernizers in the Imperial Household, the capital stayed in Kyootoo, and some of the supporters of the shogun went to Ezo(_here_ they declared a short lived republic there) and to Oregon(a major catalyst in getting the loacal powers to actually establish a goverment).
- Dec. 6, 2002 - (According to Keith) - Marc Pasquin wrote: - synarchic: government where the power is separated between various independent but equal groups that each control one aspect of society.
Much like Oregon in IB.
- April 13, 2003 - (According to Wayne) - The supreme court of Oregon found the government of Hunan guilty of war crimes, and is arranging the arrests of the responsible individuals(and would like any intelligence/assistance that could be provided).
- Nov 8, 2002 - (According to Wayne) - Oregon:California to the south, Louisianne and the SLC to the east, Alaska
to the north/ Currency: 720 cash = 1 Dollar(as in Far east) / Gov't: mixture of native and immigrant aristocracy, corporation, unions, clubs, proportional representation and municipalities; it evolved from cooperation between chiefs, furtraders, and merchant to keep order and later independence. / Pop: 12 million / Languages: de jure: OSL,Oregon Wawa(chinook jargon) / de facto:Oregonian English(Based on the Doric),OSL / other: 100's / Alphabet: Offically, Cyrillic( there was a standard orthography for all the native languages in it, not so in Latin)
Might we regard the above as QSS? Zahir 12:32, 26 February 2006 (PST)
- Yes -- I would take the above as QSS. Wayne really needs to be contacted if any of the above is incorrect, has been modified or whathaveyou. There is only one point in the above that is not entirely accurate, but that's yet to be revealed and doesn't apply to Oregon directly anyway. Elemtilas 17:46, 26 February 2006 (PST)
- I would agree as to this being QSS, except the population has probably grown since that estimate, (its probably closer to 15 millions now), and the beaver flag was used provisionally before the official flag was adopted.--Wayne Chevrier 13:11, 25 March 2006 (PST)