I've got a question, Carlos mentioned in my discussion page that the northern Terrorites rebelled against Mejico and Castile and Leon, Castile and Leon tried to squash the revolt, but AC was able to prevail, Mejico, which is stronger then invades, but finally AC wins. Hopefully that was clear. So, is that how the history was laid out? I thought that Mejico kicks out Castile andLeon, then after indpendence, AC and the other northern territories finally revolt against Mejico. I'm basing this off of the view that AC only really rebelled once Mejico tried to take control. - User:Doobieous 17:00 PST 17 Feb 2005
- Well, acording to my version, Castile and Leon in the 1810's and 1820's had very little control, politically and militarily, to hold the colonies, mainly the most perispherical colonies. The center of the power in North America were the city of Mejico, the see of the Viceroyalty of New Leon, and when a rebellion started just there, it was not easy to control places like Tejas or California.
- Also, during the first years of the Mejican rebelion, the Mejicans had very little power to control the whole former viceroyalty. They were concentrated in the heart of Mejico and unable to control the antiles, Central America, Tejas or California.
- In those years, there were many fractions. Those in Tejas or California who were loyalist even if they had been forgotten by the king. Those who don't care who were the ruler. Those who wanted autonomy inside the Castilian Empire, or full independence. Those who would prefere an incompetent monarch thousands of miles away than a local ruler, etc. There were also a tenssion between Nativists (like Mejicans *there*) and Castilianists, between liberals and conservatives, etc.
- Much as *here*, the revolution in Mejico did not affected Californians, but unlike *here*, the administration and bureocracly was served by the Castilian Empire, rather than the Mejican Empire. There were no local ruler in California.
- Tejas was different, they did suffer the Mejican Revolution, but they were rather Castilianists (either loyalist or pro-independence) than Nativists. Many Tejans originally wanted a Mejican Empire, independent from Castile-Leon, but controlled by Criollos (descendants of Castilians) rather than by the decendants of the Mechicas.
- In the early 1830's Castile and Leon was still in chaos, including a civil war in Spain, that also affected the colonies, but in the mid and late 1830's things begun to stabilize. This included a more effective way to handle the bureocracy to places like California... but, on the other hand, Californios had decided, in 1834, to declare independence. Castile and Leon did little to prevent this secession: there were barely a couple of little garrisons in California, and long supply lines from Panama. So the independentists in Alta California get the Castilian garrisons to surrender soon.
- But, by this time, the Mejicans had already stabilzed their country (sort of), and formed a strong army and an incipient but enough navy. And they atempted to "free" the reminded former New Leon (New Spain *here*), which they managed by invading Alta California and Central America.
- For the Castilian kingdom, Central America was priority to protect than California...
- By 1838, internal problems in Mejico started another civil war, so, the Mejicans begun to loose control in California, Tejas, and Central America.
- In the 1840's Alta California declares again their independence, this time from Mejico.
- For Montreianos,... well, I don't know, but my guess is that, while they were not exactly happy to be ruled by Castile-Leon or by Mejicans, a ruler miles away was better (more acceptable) for them than a local ruler in California.
- --Chlewey 19:04, 17 Feb 2005 (PST)
I've changed where Alta California is located in proximity to Mejico. AC is entirely to the west of Mejico, as Tejas' territory is along the northern border. AC shares a small border with Mejico along the Rio Colorado (*here's* area of Mejico from the California and Arizona borders south to the Sea of Cortez). Also, the Baja Peninsula is a part of AC, the province of Baja California. - Doobieous
Where does the flag come from?
I'm intrigued by the proposal, and have these questions:
- Why didn't Castilian overpower all the other languages?
- If Castilian didn't overpower the other languages, why didn't a creole develop, instead of a "daughter language"?
- Is this daughter language a hybrid of Castilian/Aztecan?
- What percent of the population speak Nahuatl?
I must also add that this should probably be run past Barry/Doobieous and Carlos/Chlewey.
BoArthur 18:49, 26 January 2006 (PST)
- I like it, and frankly, some kind of monarchy makes sense for IB. The name strikes me as somewhat incongruous -- I mean, there's an actual monarch, and it's not like the Mexicans *here* have been afraid to call themselves an empire when they've got a king on the throne! Elemtilas 21:11, 26 January 2006 (PST)
- Shakes head to catch up to the shift inconversation*. Yeah, I'm fine with a king as well. But what about the questions and the language/culture proposal? BoArthur 21:18, 26 January 2006 (PST)
- I'm wondering if most of the population *would* have adopted Nauhatl even if official? I suppose if the main population center is Mejico City then that is possible, but unless Nauhatl were to become some sort of prestige language then Maybe Castillian is the more numerous language, but with a large Nauhuatl speaking population? Also, what do we mean by it being the language they speak? Natively or as a second lingua franca?
- For me it's not really an issue and can go any way that's agreed upon here (since I can't see it really affecting any of the areas I custodian.) Perhaps we can use the Philippines as a model of how the National languages would be used? Perhaps Castillian is the language that is used as the lingua Franca? It's pretty common for most people to learn some English in the Philippines, so perhaps this is the reality of Mejico *there*?
- As for the king or emperor, it's not unrealistic for Mejico to have one since there have been a line of several (albeit rather underserving) emperors, probably the most well known was Maximillian III. Doobieous 21:42, 26 January 2006 (PST)
- As far as the language / culture issues are concerned, I agree: it would have to be explained how Castilian is not the principal language. The Spaniards can't have done much differently *there* in spreading their language. Elemtilas 08:50, 27 January 2006 (PST)
I guess Castilian language did get spread, but once the native monarchy was restored, maybe the King supported the use of Nahuatl by nativists. So it was then when the spread of castilian stopped, at least for native use. But today Castilian is used much more than Nahuatl in formal situations, like government, commerce, etc.
Does that make sense? Duane 14:46, 27 January 2006 (PST)
- That makes more sense. I was wondering about that since they'd be at a disadvantage with their neighbors to the north and south. I do wonder, would the different ethnic groups dislike using Nahuatl? If there's some sort of rivalry, my guess is it would be grudgingly learned, but Castilian would be the lingua franca, as there's more of a benefit to learning it, and it's *not* the language of the ruling group. So, if Castilian is the language of formal situations (more than Nahuatl), does it enjoy a status much like English does in the Philippines *here* where even a farmer from the country knows enough English to give directions and communicate with people who may not speak their home language? Doobieous 18:30, 27 January 2006 (PST)
- Exactly. Duane 07:37, 28 January 2006 (PST)
- The ascendancy of a Native ruling class certainly explains a lot! Elemtilas 22:33, 28 January 2006 (PST)
Are we accepting this proposal then? It seems a bit far-fetched for me, and I don't know if Carlos would, either. Comments?
- Given the context that Duane and I discussed, with a language situation like the Philippines *here*, it doesn't seem too far fetched. Of course Pilipino was adopted and was supposed to be a mix of words from various languages around the Phlippines. But, this only took ground in the middle of the last century, rather than the 1800's. I'm curious as to how would Nauhuatl become such a prestigious language, even if it were the language of the ruling class? In the Philippines, Spanish never really gained much ground except among the rich, and administration, and even then at its height, I've read only about 10% of the population spoke it, and primarily from those class levels anyway. Doobieous 15:27, 21 July 2006 (PDT)
- Six years later, I know this conversation is dead, but I thought I could weigh in. Colonial Spain was not actually that great at spreading its language. Often times, they promoted indigenous languages as linguas francas rather than Spanish; they did this with Nahuatl in Mexico in fact, although colonial policy was not always consistent and certain kings gave orders to spread Spanish among los indios. But when Mexico won independence *here*, it was estimated that only about 40% of the population spoke Spanish. It was modern ideas of liberal nationalism that led to a more concerted effort to hispanicize everyone - comparisons could be made to policy in France in the same era. So By 1900 Mexico was 80% Spanish speaking and today it's well above 90%. (The numbers are according to es.wikipedia; I know, but they support what I've read elsewhere in Actual Books). But my point is that Nahuatl as a national language is immensely plausible - it really would be a continuation of the earlier colonial policy. Benkarnell 09:29, 12 December 2012 (PST)
I can't help noticing that Mejico was a member of the OCCC, but membership in the MCN isn't even pending... has it just been neglected? Duane 16:46, 18 March 2006 (PST)
Was *there* in Mejico anything similar to adventure of Napoleon III. and Maximillian of Habsburg? Jan II. 03:44, 29 May 2006 (PDT)
- For the Franco-Prussian War to roll out like later history would dictate, Napoleon III will need a proving ground for his troops. I'm going to try to weave it in. BoArthur 20:19, 13 November 2015 (PST)