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Can one of our wiki-wizards convert the political party box into a nifty table? BoArthur 14:06, 3 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Is this nifty enough for you, Sir? ;) --IJzeren Jan 23:19, 3 Oct 2005 (PDT)


Abdul-Aziz, you changed the number of inhabitants from 2.6 million to 1.95 million, with the following argument: "Lowered population number, as in this case there was less Russian immigration after Second Great War than in real world; as well no Liepaja and surrounding region which is part of Skuodia."

You certainly have a point. Indeed, there was little Russian immigration after GW2 and no Liepaja. However, there are a few other differences that might be taken into account, too. First of all, the War itself was less devastating than *here*. Secondly, there was not the massive emigration from Latvia that we had *here*. Thirdly, Latvia still has a sizeable Livonian population. Let's have a look at the following population figures from *here*'s Latvia (x1000):

1897 1,973.0
1914 2,542.0
(1920 1,596.0)
1925 1,844.8
1930 1,900.1
1935 1,950.5
(1941 2,062.0)
(1946 1,998.0)
1959 2,079.9
1989 2,666.6
1994 2,565.9
2005 2,302.7

As you can see, the figures before WW1 were pretty high. The war itself was pretty devastating in Latvia and let to huge emigration. The same might have happened *there*, although to a lesser extent. After that, during the Interwar period, Latvia's population grew with approximately 10,000 a year. In the period after WW2, there has indeed been a huge immigration from Russia and other republics, but it must also be said that Latvia's population has been decreasing since 1989, probably due to emigration of the same Russians.

*There*, we had of course no Russian immigration. And as you said, Skuodia became independent. The latter amounts for some 300,000 people or so. Add to that that less people were killed in GW2, and the fact that there was no Holocaust, and let's assume a similar natural growth after GW2 as before it (the fact that Livonia and Courland were separate in the Interbellum shouldn't be of much influence here). In that case we get (x mln):

1897 1.97
1914 2.54
1920 1.90
1941 2.16
1949 1.80
1959 1.90
1989 2.20
2005 2.35

In other words, I think the old figure of 2.6 is too high indeed (BTW, I think I established it before Skuodia even existed). But on the other hand, your figure of 1.95 is a little low IMO. Shall we go for a compromise, and say 2.35 mln?

--IJzeren Jan 01:57, 4 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Yes that figure might be ok. I wonder however as for pre-1914 data of real world Latvia, what territories it included - it might be that both Russian gubernyas of Livonia and Courland, and gubernya of Livonia included large areas (maybe one third or even half) of Estonia too. As well I don't know if Latvia was under occupation of imperial Russia in Bethisad; if it wasn't, then less immigrants back then too. If it was, all immigrants (e.g. Russians) who immigrated then would have emmigrated the same way after Latvia became independent as they did in real world. But generally, the number you propose is ok.

I think by the way you should alter some population data in Lithuania for similar reasons. E.g. you give population of Samogitia at 1,240,497, while in real world the population of similar region (which includes four out of five largest real-world Lithuanian cities) is like 1,7 million; and in reality this region is mostly Lithuanian, as Jewish communities and such didn't remained, as they did in Bethisad; as well I think for example Klaipėda, the only port of Lithuania in Bethisad and as well its only "window to sea", would be a somewhat larger city than it is in reality. Also, there were less damage in wars as you said. So maybe more realistic number for Samogitia would be about 2 millions or 2,3 million? Abdul-aziz 09:14, 4 Oct 2005 (PDT)

About Latvia's pre-1914 data: I don't know if Northern Livonia is included. Could very well be (how else would one explain a population drop of nearly a million?).
As for Latvia's history: it was more or less the same as *here* until the 19th century. Livonia was incorporated by Imperial Russia in 1721, "Venedic Livonia" (Latgale, equivalent of *here*'s Polish Livonia) was added in 1772. Courland remained a semi-independent duchy in close union with the RTC (which I've decided was still known as RBN in those days) until 1864. After GW1, Livonia and Courland became independent states, and after GW2 they were finally united into Latvia. In other words: in IB, "Latvia" is essentially a snorist invention!
Re:Samogitia/Klaipėda: you're probably right. It's a little hard for me to change the data for these provinces now, because quite some other stuff has been based on it. But I'll do my best. Do you have more suggestions that might affect population data? --IJzeren Jan 00:44, 5 Oct 2005 (PDT)
I think in other provinces, such as Suslewia or Polesja, there might be some underpopulation (of a few hundred thousands) too, due to the not happened holocaust (still large Jewish populations there) and other things. I assume Vilnius is a larger city in Bethisad too than it is in real world, as it always was a capital, such things as holocaust or Polish (Wenedyk) flight to Poland (forced by Soviet authorities) after WW2 did not happen, also Lithuania is a larger country, so more places from where people would come to capital. I would assume Vilnius has about a million inhabittants probably, and only one third or or less of them are Lithuanians, the rest being Jews, Belarusians, Ukraineans, Veneds, Saxons, Germans and other nationalities of Lithuania. However, the province has a number of people at 3.2 millions, which is I guess enough even with this assumption, although the number might be increased somewhat. If you'd be changing the numbers, however you might change those of other provinces too by increasing them by a few hundred thousands; it can also be argued hwever that there was Venedic emmigration in interwar from places like Suslewia to Veneda, and Belarussian emmigration to Belarus from Polesja/Volhynia and such after GW2 and that is the reason why populations are smaller. Abdul-aziz 03:15, 5 Oct 2005 (PDT)
Have on mind, that there are few hundred thousands more Czechs in Volhynia *there* than *here*, that can buffer the Belarussian emmigrees. Jan II.
Basically, all population figures for the provinces of the RTC, as well as for the RTC itself, are entirely based on the situation *here* (as far as I could calculate them on the basis of the data I have at my disposition, of course). Obviously, there are differences between OTL and IB. Indeed, there was no Holocaust, and therefore there is a larger Jewish population in the RTC. But on the other hand, the Jews have had their own states much longer than *here* (Judea, Mueva Seferad). So establishing a number of Jews in the RTC is mere guesswork.
As for the Ukrainians, a number of them might have emigrated to Ukraine itself, which was independent from 1918 onwards. When Jan II came up with a few hundreds of thousands of Czechs, I simply diminished the number of Ukrainians somewhat in their favour. For the sake of convenience, I include the number of Sudovians in the number of Lithuanians.
Abdul-Aziz, your description of Lithuania's ethnic composition fits well with my idea of it. Indeed, Vilnius should be a huge and international city. I don't know if the Lithuanians would amount only 1/3 of the population - I'd rather say 1/2, but those are mere details. I don't think there are many Germans and Saxons around there, though: they are mostly concentrated in Western Veneda. You are right about your assumption that many Veneds moved to Veneda in the Interwar period, and that probably many Belarussians moved to Belarus, too.
Okay, the data on my demography page are for 2001. How about making new data for 2005? They should of course be based on the current data for 2001, but we can of course work your comments into the new figures. I do Veneda, you do Lithuania? In that case, it might be an idea to treat the Sudovians separately this time, too! --IJzeren Jan 23:53, 5 Oct 2005 (PDT)
In that case if numbers of Jews are smaller than were in real world, the percentages of Jews (Yiddish speakers) should be lowered. How did such large numbers of Germans and Saxons ended up in Samogitia by the way? As I understand, they were traders and such, but probably would be primarily in Klaipėda. I think only data of Samogitia is surely wrong (as the population number is much lower than in real world also) and else is up to interpretations. It can be done for 2005, yes, I guess however Samogitia would still need to be tweaked in 2001 results and in general results of 2001 might be actually made older, such as 1988, to explain higher increases - this is just an idea though. As for Vilnius, 1/3 would be probably more corect number due to immigration from all parts of Lithuania to Vilnius, remaining Jewish population (in real world Vilnius was regarded as Yiddish capital of the world due to large number of Jews), which is probably smaller, but Belarussian and (somewhat) Ukrainian populations would be larger than in real world; Venedic population would probably be more or less equal to real world Polish one, and Russian population almost wouldn't exist in Vilnius. 1/2 might be also though. Abdul-aziz 07:24, 6 Oct 2005 (PDT)

Proposal for the logo of the military Junta


This logo is loosely based on an emblem used *here* by latvians in russia service (during the tsarist era) and a modern Latvian military emblem. Considering the junta was pro-snorist, it would seem appropriate.--Marc Pasquin 16:57, 26 October 2005 (PDT)

Very nice! Zahir 17:50, 26 October 2005 (PDT)
Very nice indeed! Do you think it would be good to change the Latvian national flag under junta rule too? It could substitute this flag. --IJzeren Jan 00:42, 27 October 2005 (PDT)
Up to you but if it was strictly a military regime (as opposed to an idoelogical one) they could have simply kept the old national flag (as a show of continuity) with that logo used only

as the "government" sceal.--Marc Pasquin 05:03, 27 October 2005 (PDT)

I've been trying to implement this on the flag, too:

Essentially, same thing as with Estonia. Now that I look at these, I think in both cases the flag should be 2:3 instead of 1:2, but that's another thing. Which one do you prefer, Marc? Or do you have a better idea? And in any case: would it be possible for you to redo the flag a little (to avoid all the white spots on the brown I got by copy-'n-pasting your image on a brown background? --IJzeren Jan 12:44, 23 November 2005 (PST)

Here go:
--Marc Pasquin 15:31, 23 November 2005 (PST)
Personally, I think I prefer the looks of either IJzeren Jan's Version #1 (the white cross on brown) or Marc's #3 (white stripe on red). Zahir 17:57, 23 November 2005 (PST)
None of them really strike me as "Wow! That one!" but I must say that the white cross behind the symbol is distracting to me, so I do favor marc's 3. BoArthur
Mind, the situation with Latvia is a little more complicated than with Estonia, because Latvia itself was a snorist invention. Before GW2, there were Courland and Livonia, and they had different flags. So after the fall of the SNOR, they didn't have a prewar flag to return to. From that point of view, I suppose Marc's 2nd and Marc's 3rd could be transposed best into Latvia's current flag. I don't really have a personal preference myself (although I do think we could use a few one-colour flags like #2). If you guys prefer #3, then #3 it will be. --IJzeren Jan 00:44, 24 November 2005 (PST)
...or, now that I think of it: #2 could be the flag of the junta/party, #3 the flag of Latvia, and #4 perhaps the flag of the prime minister, or so? Or an army flag? --IJzeren Jan 12:25, 24 November 2005 (PST)
Brown is probably good for a military junta. If Livonia & Courland *there* used the same flags as *here*, #3 would make sense (design from livonia and colours from courland). For the head of state, maybe we can assume that they decided to immitate Russia *there* which had the national emblem in canton (if memory serves) so # 4 --Marc Pasquin 14:12, 25 November 2005 (PST)
Fully agreed! I'll delete the rest of your and mine proposal flags, okay? --IJzeren Jan 02:13, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Delete away.--Marc Pasquin 05:25, 26 November 2005 (PST)
Done! --IJzeren Jan 05:30, 26 November 2005 (PST)

I guess the royal house would probably have been diffrent during the SNORist time as most likely the Russians would have instated some loyal or pro-Russian noble as a King. While if the current house was loyal to SNOR then most likely it would have been deposed in 1989 or so. Abdul-aziz 12:06, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Religion in Latgale

Do the Latgalians follow Latvian Neopaganism (Dievturi or something similar)? Or are they followers of Lithuanian Romuva? Juan Martin Velez Linares 12:50, 15 October 2015 (CDT)

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