Proposals regarding the LOR
(moved here from Talk:Nassland)
All maps below (except for the last, which has been taken directly from Jan II's website) are rough outlines and meant for discussion only. As soon as the discussion is over, I intend to remove them from wiki space, so anyone who wants to keep them better makes a copy!
The situation before Russia took huge parts of Nassina in 1721 after the Great Nordic War.
... and the situation after. As you can see, Russia took more than we thought it did.
In 1918, the communist Ladogo-Onegian SSR (or Nassian SSR, or whatever its name) proclaims its independence. It manages to maintain itself for a while.
The LOSSR/NSSR has been completely overrun by the White Russian forces. But instead of annexing it back into Russia, the Russians establish a pseudo-independent puppet state, the LOR.
After that, it can go many ways. The LOR and NV merge during the 1940s, when NV is ruled by the SIS regime. The SIS falls, but Yalta returns the LOR to Russia. Either the LOR continues to exist after GW2 and merges with NV after the fall of the SNOR (for example, in 1990); or the LOR disappears into Russia, and only later some kind of Republic is reestablished, which later merges with NV.
--IJzeren Jan 13:26, 20 May 2005 (PDT)
- Shall I move all the above to Talk:Ladogian Republic? IMO it fits there better than here. And as the maps are not necessary anymore, I think I will delete them. Is that okay with you, Jan? Cheers, IJzeren Jan 07:20, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)
- Yes. Yes. :) "Wasse slowa budiss ano ano, ne ne." Jan II. 7:53, 17 Jun 2005 (CEST)
Well then, a few comments on my part:
J2: "1920, SNOR established Ladozhskaja Avtonomnaja Respublika (LAR) [...]"
- J1: That won't work, because the SNOR was established only in 1923. Possibly the LAR was established earlier, but that doesn't seem likely to me since the ideological drive wasn't that strong yet. So I'd suggest 1924 or 1926 or so. Alternatively, you could follow the scenario I suggested earlier: that the LAR proclaimed its independence during the Civil War, maintained itself as a Bolshevik state for a short while, and once it was overthrown, the Whites decided to turn it into a quasi-independent propaganda state instead of simply reannexing it.
- J2: OK, again my confusion on Russian history after 1918 ;) So, late 1919?, Ladozhskaja Sovjetskaja Respublika was found and overrun 1924 by Whites, who established there LR.
- J1: No, I'd say 1918. In late 1917 and 1918 the Bolsheviks were still in charge of Moscow, busy turning Russia into a socialist state and fighting for territory. There wouldn't have been much need for the Nassian communist to declare independence by then. The Whites were fighting, of course. I think it was in July 1918 that they kicked the Reds out of Moscow. Now thát could be a good moment for the Ladogian communists to declare independence. I think they did that in many places. Now we just need to find a good reason why the LaSR wasn't overrun within three months after its foundation. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that it couldn't have lasted tóó long: six or seven years would be ridiculous. I'd say that it could have survive two, three years at most, and to that, it must have been in a constant state of war. Look what happened to the SSRS!.
- J2: So then, around July 1918, spontaneously after defeat of Bolsheviks in Moscow, Nassian and Russian communists declared LaSR. Then, three months later, White Army was close enough to overrun it. Could we think Nassina supported communists? Wouldnt it mean, that then WA overruns Nassina? May WA fear NV+SU to crush LaSR ASAP? Did have WA more work elsewhere? The one real scenario I see now is that LaSR was dead in autumn/winter 1918 and was later in 1924 revived as LR.
- J1: Could Nassina have supported the communists? Well, it's of course up to you, but since Nassina was a neutral state, and not one with an outright leftist government, I sort of doubt it. Hardly anybody supported the Bolsheviks, mind. UNLESS... unless they had a very good reason to support the communists. If Nassina was on good terms with the Germans, perhaps if Nassina had been attacked by imperial Russia...
- For the rest, sounds OK. So: LaSR ~July - ~December 1918, LR ~1924- .
J2:"Then in 1935, to intesify the pressure on Nassian State, they released it as a quasi-independent satelite state - Ladozhiska Respubelika (LR) with capital Kargopol."
- J1:Funny, I thought of Kargopol as a capital, too! :)
- As to the map, I basically agree with it, except that leave the narrow strip west of Lake Ladoga Russian (otherwise the LR come dangerously close to Petrograd!). Furthermore, since LR is supposed to be a smallish state, I wonder if it's really necessary to include the region part northeast of Lake Onega. Russia by its very nature is rather not eager to give away parts of its territory... Besides, with the territory as shown on this map, the name "Ladogian Republic" (vs. "Ladogian-Onegian Republic") is hardly justified anymore.
- J2: Name "Ladogian" is not because of geography, but of nationality! Ladogians is Russian name for Nassians living in Russia. That strip close to Petrograd could be ommitted; I just used your proposal maps, so I thought it is OK. Well, the parts north-east of Lake Onega till Onega River and Lake Lacha (former Russian-Nassian border in 1721) are populated by Nassians. I suppose they gave the territory only to have all rats in one sack.
- J1: Yeah, I was still working on a proposal. I was thinking of exactly thát argument: would the SNOR really have wanted all rats in one sack? I think it would be more typical for regimes like that to have a number of rats in sack 1, to have some rats in sack 2, to leave a few out of both sacks, to tell the rats in sack 1 that they are better of than the rats in sack 2, to tell the rats in sack 2 that unless they keep silent and do as they're told the fate of the rats in sack 1 awaits them, to convince the rats in each sack that théy are the only true rats while the rats in the others sacks are nothing but mice, really... You know what I am getting at? Following that logic, I'm sure the Russians must have made sure that there were quite some ethnic Russians within the LR, and there were quite some Nassians outside it! If so, the borders of the present-day LAO must be quite different from those of the LR before...
- J2: OK, could you prepare a map with extent of LR and LAO fulfilling the requirements you set? I found them logical, but have a limited knowledge on contemporary IB Russia in 1924 and 1994. And present-day LAO could be more ethnical, also we can include, that after 80 years more Nassians were russified. Thanx.
- J1: Well, here's my go at a map of the LR:
I haven't had the time yet for a map of the LAO, but imagine a narrower strip of land. Wouldn't it be cool to have to areas which are separated from each other by NV? Say, one stretching from south of Lake Ladoga till the region immediately south of Lake Onega, and one stretching from the White Sea to something south of Kargopol?
- J1: Well, here's my go at a map of the LR:
J2: "During popular uprise in 1948, Nassian partyzans and semi-regular army has stopped on former NV-LR borders due to the political decision of Nassian government in exile not to make Russia more angry, than it is necessary. On Yalta and in Visby was decided to restore NV without LR, which was brought back to Russia."
- J1: Of course, it could be that they didn't want to make Russia angry, but the likelier solution IMO is that they simply weren't strong enough to take control over LR territory. That makes it easier to explain a return to the status quo ante bellum.
- J2: Agree.
J2: "Russia went back to founding Ladozhskaja Avtonomnaja Respublika as a source of anti-Nassian sentinent."
- J1: I don't think so. Either a return to the status quo ante bellum was accomplished, in which case the LR became a pseudo-independent state once again (which, given the pattern followed elsewhere in Europe and Asia, would make quite some sense). Or they, frustrated about the failure of the LR, decided to give up the whole idea of a Nassian "DDR", and annihilated the region's autonomy altogether!
- Both options are acceptable to me. In the first case, Russia must have annexed the LR at some later point, for example during the 1950s. In the second, it might have reemerged either in the late 1980s or in the early 1990s. Perhaps autonomy as granted (some kind of autonomous okrug or autonomous gubernia or something) by the RPN itself.
- J2: I would take the second. After GW2, the autonomy was abolished and after 1992, Nassians became an autonomous region within RPN in the extent of former LR.
- J1: Okay!
J2: "NV needs to deal today with invasion of beggars, who see the life standards in NV and think, that grilled chickens fly directly into mouth there."
- J1: Then why was Nassina so anxious to support the RPN in its efforts to become a member of the Baltic League? If anybody would have a reason to keep the borders as tightly closed as possible, it would be them! ;)
- J2: I wouldn't say NV wants closed borders; NV want RPN to ASAP controll its gray and black economy. Nassian politicians think, that under BL supervision, RPN's politicians would prefer to fight more intensively for legal ways of trading. If you have a greedy cat in your house, it is better to keep her closely watched and even better tight on a lead.
- J1: Okay.
J2: "Contemporary vice-president of RPN Svetmir Arkadik Bukolesov is of Nassian nationality."
- J1: Excellent!
- Cheers, IJzeren Jan 07:09, 30 May 2005 (PDT).
- Nazdar, Jan II. 08:24, 31 May 2005 (CEST).
- Vuastila, IJzeren Jan 00:39, 31 May 2005 (PDT)
- Anävittenö, Jan II. 10:00, 1 June 2005 (CEST).
- Eh... A rzewidziar! IJzeren Jan 00:20, 2 Jun 2005 (PDT)
Approval of proposal?
How could we move proposal of LR to QSS? Jan II.
- Well, here's a true miracle: on the moment you are typing this question, I was QSSifying the proposal on LR. I swear, I hadn't seen this question before I did it! :) --IJzeren Jan 07:10, 15 Jun 2005 (PDT)