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Flag proposal

When I sent my proposals to Andrew I forgot to save a copy so I'm sure he will forgive me if I swiped his version he sent to sescam (just so everyone knows, I have not started to refer to myself in the third person yet, these are part of Andrew's comments)--Marc Pasquin 19:56, 20 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Nice work, both the flag and the garment! However, somehow I have a problem swallowing this new dragon. Perhaps it's just that I got too used to the previous one, but... well, this new dragon just looks a bit too cartoonesque to me. Like he was doing a genuine effort to "lead the way", but then ended up in a terrible knot with itself. Not that it's necessary a bad thing, though. I would recommend however to mirror it, so that the dragon points to the right. Of course, the ultimate decision is up to Andrew, but here are my two dzienarzy. --IJzeren Jan 11:47, 21 Apr 2005 (PDT)
The twisting is based on similar knoted type animals in celtic illustration, I think it was an attempt to cover as much space as possible with it. As to pointing to the right, flags in western countries are normaly represented with the hoist at the left. This mean that if he was looking at the right, he would be looking *away* from the battlefield when carried into combat (thats why most animals in heraldry are looking toward the left).--Marc Pasquin 19:26, 21 Apr 2005 (PDT)
Thanks for putting that up. I had been meaning to put up a proposal page but I never got around to editing the article again and writing it up. I wonder if the knot design is too 'busy'. Maybe some research needs to be done into the standards of the independent Welsh princes *here*. I would also favour keeping the colours on the wing of the current Dragun Rhys and the golden silhouette on the green field. Also I wonder about giving the dragon a Roman crown to indicate that the Imperium of Rome has passed on to the kings of Kemr after the fall of Constantinople in the middle ages --andrew..
I don't much fancy the knotted dragon design for the flag. He looks too confused, and that could prompt those rotten scoundrels from across the Ffens to poke fun at Kemr and her noble symbol! We also have to consider the time period the flag was designed in. I bet it was not the 20th century -- and this design is obviously 20th century! Something like this (perhaps with some legs) would look cool along the side of a high speed locomotive or perhaps on a dirigible. Knotwork itself I am in no way opposed to. Perhaps some knotwork could be woven into the design: maybe a "royal knot" or something. Also, anything to indicate where the true imperium of Rome has passed (i.e., Kemr) is a Good Thing. Elemtilas
I agree that the knotted dragon would make a splendid corporate logo for, let's say, Kemrese Royal Railways... --IJzeren Jan 03:07, 25 Apr 2005 (PDT)

OOOH! Your mind is incredible in its creativity, Jan! I cast my vote that way! BoArthur 22:15, 3 May 2005 (PDT)

Ambot ha imo! That is SO left-handed!!! Kemrese Railways are NOTHING like British Rail *here*!!!!!!!!!! Sheesh. They're top notch and run on time. Huh. Elemtilas
So, are you seriously suggesting that the speed and reliability of K.R. could NOT be properly represented by a knotted dragon?!? No, that can't be true! What did you say? It is? How weird!!! IJzeren Jan 12:18, 4 May 2005 (PDT)
No, I'm teasing. I took your and BoArthur's comments to be a slight against KRR, comparing it to the veritable epitome of inefficiency, British Rail (*here*). Even here in the States, we hear the jokes about BR. Mind you, on second thought, a knotted dragon that doesn't seem to know which way it's going is probably NOT the best representative for a transport company! The idea is sound, though and could work for some Kemrese corporation, though. I think for a train, you'd want probably want to convey speed with a sleek dragon motif. Elemtilas
Nah, the fact that it's knotted simply means that our dragon is in a constant process of introspection and internal growth, which all in all is a Good Thing. What else would you like? A running dragon? Some (guéss who) will explain it as a dragon being on the run for a mouse! Running westward, I should add... Ah, here's the solution! How about a dragon on wheels?! :))) IJzeren Jan 23:44, 4 May 2005 (PDT)
A tangled and confused design like that - it's not railways - it's a symbolic representation of the Castreleon public transport network. What other city would map out its tramlines in the form of a celtic knot? andrew.


click for larger version

version 2 are based on a medieval style I saw in a bestiary --Marc Pasquin 16:46, 26 Apr 2005 (PDT)

Oo, I like 2C (the one without the flame). I'm not sure what Andrew had in mind when he said "Roman crown". I thought perhaps one of them laurel wreath thingies you see on the heads of Julius Caesar and similar. I don't think they had puffy jewel encrusted crowns. Perhaps the crown could be placed above Dragon? Once the crown is settled, I'd be happy with any of these, really.[PB]
Me too. Very nice dragon! From the crowns, I like C best. I don't really have an opinion about the flame: for me, it can stay, but I can also live without. Same for the tongue. About the colour scheme: I like the purple, but would it be possible to try a version with red and purple alternating (so, without the dark colour)? --IJzeren Jan 03:54, 27 Apr 2005 (PDT)
Ooh, lovely! They are all cuddly red dragons! Perhaps we can take a poll on Sescam and see if we can come to some agreement. - andrew.
Yes, I like 2D. Since you suggested an "eastern" sort of crown for Dragon, does that also imply an eastern type of crown for Ill Teruin? It'ld be neat to see an image of his majesty with all the regalia typical of the office. Elemtilas
I like 2D best. But I think the dragon's legs should be shorter (or maybe fatter?) in some way- they look a little too equine to me. Deiniol 18:43, 30 Apr 2005 (PDT)
Canine, rather. ;o) But yeah, both anatomy and pose make a somehow delicate and artificial impression. Couldn't blame the bloody Zawzen for ridiculing it... The powerful prancing version on the IB airship logo is certainly preferable. What was wrong with that one anyway? Just my EF -/2. The Jervan 15:07, 1 May 2005 (PDT)
Short version: the picture comes from another site. Although I doubt they would sue us (or even mind) Its probably a good idea to have one which we could use as we want.--Marc Pasquin 18:24, 2 May 2005 (PDT)
I really like 2F- the dragons seems much more majestic and regal. He could possibly do with being a bit, well, "fatter". Deiniol 13:36, 3 May 2005 (PDT)
I agree, 2F is nice. I think the bigger nails are a very nice touch. Personally, I wouldn't mind to have the flames back, though, to underline the animals dragonness. IJzeren Jan 16:41, 3 May 2005 (PDT)
I think I prefer 2E. The colored wings and underside make the dragon's shape more visible and three-dimensional. The black line art within the darkish-red dragon is not well recognizable on its own. I second the call for more muscular limbs, a dragon needs power more than feminine grace. :P The Jervan 00:32, 4 May 2005 (PDT)
Of the two new ones, I like 2h -- stockier, eastern crown, no fire -- better. Elemtilas
Me too. 2H is excellent! Although personally I wouldn't mind having some fire too (but if there's to be fire, I feel the yellow fire looks slightly better than the yellow-and-red). Why not follow Andrew's suggestion and create a poll on Sescam? --IJzeren Jan 00:35, 11 May 2005 (PDT)
Yep, 2H is the best so far. I like the flame by itself, but 2I seems to choke on its own neck. A flame-throwing 2H would be best IMHO. The Jervan 03:20, 11 May 2005 (PDT)
I was waiting for a seconder before I initiated a poll. While it would be quick and easy to set up I have a Recordkeeping assignment to submit before 17 May and that's a priority. - andrew. The caching problem seems to disappeared. Anyone else noticed that?
Gereint VII was crowned the first king of Kemr using an eastern crown to indicate that he was the inheritor of the Roman Imperium after the fall of Constantinople. Presumably this has remained the tradition in Kemr since this period. The crowned dragon as the symbol of the house of Padern also dates from that period. There are regalia from the independant Princes of Wales in the Royal collection *here*. Until more information can be found on this collection I'm cautious to speculate on the Royal Regalia *there*. (That's a challenge to anyone interested.) If we ever find out more then our image people can have fun. - andrew.

Da Propozalz--Marc Pasquin 17:09, 10 May 2005 (PDT)

About the Red Dragon of Kemr, I've been trying to find an old image but to not avail. For a people who took it as their symbol, welsh didn't seem to use it much in art before the 20th century and the whole celtic/new age revival (and sport contest obviously).

Two ideas I had was to make a dragon using a generic celtic style with lots of knots (look at the included image for a rough idea). The other option would be to draw it in a similar way then the heraldic one but with a crown (showing sovereignty) and pointing forward (as a possible origin *there* of the motto).

(The motto is "Ill Dragun Rhys dug' ill modd", the Red Dragon leads the way.)

As the official symbol of Wales: the flag was adopted *here* during the early 1950s. The colours and design comes the the king's badge for wales (a red dragon on a green mound)created in the early 1800s which itself is based on a battle banner of Henry VII that combined the red dragon of Cadwallader (which might have realy been golden) with the Tudor livery colours of green and white.

Obviously *there* it would have arisen differently, the dragon probably being adopted originaly by Arthur Pendragon then readopted later by Gereint VII who placed it on the colours of his clan (green and white).

Did we come to a resolution on this? Deiniol 16:28, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
Aparently not. Andrew and Jan talked about putting up a poll. Then again, maybe I should have done it considering I started this thread. Naughty me. --Marc Pasquin 18:04, 26 Sep 2005 (PDT)
The article is looking tidier [Eccles]fine, fine, fine[/Eccles], so thanks for that, Dan. As to the Flag. Jan and I talked about putting up an identikit poll for the flag. Neither of us pursued it, due to busyness, capability, procrastination, or any other reason. I would suggest that one of you two pick it up and run with it. Otherwise, my own ruling would be for the stocky red dragon with the purple and blue inlay and the byzantine crown, the little burst of flame from the earlier samples, and the gold on green edging from the current flag. When I have time again, (hopefully after I submit my assignment for "Managing Archives" next Tuesday NZT) I need to start creating stubs for historical and contemporary Kemrese figures that I know about. - AndrewSmith

Flag again

So, any final decisions about the flag? --IJzeren Jan 04:58, 19 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Anyone remembered to post a poll on one of the list ?--Marc Pasquin 17:10, 20 Jul 2005 (PDT)
In the Sescam poll there are three votes for 2H; I have also received an email from Sally putting on in for 2A. Since then the vote has stalled. Should we call it closed or move it to another list? -- AndrewSmith 21:18, 20 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Allow me to vote for version 1. It has a simpler design with less colours (ideal for flag makers) and a much better proportion of 1:2. Boreanesia 22:19, 20 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Is it possible to put up a poll at, say, Lla Dafern? -- AndrewSmith 00:02, 23 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Certainly it is. Why not? Lla Dafern is definitely a good place for a thing like that. If you like, I can set one up for you. I would make one suggestion though: perhaps we should distinguish between the different elements, so that we can vote for, say, the dragon of 2G, the crown of 2A, the flames of 2H, the colour pattern of 2B, etc. --IJzeren Jan 05:19, 23 Jul 2005 (PDT)
Excellent idea - the national flag identikit!  :) -AndrewSmith 02:45, 26 Jul 2005 (PDT)

Flag Proposal Identikit

Please indicate your preference:


  • Long legged beastie:
  • More Stocky : [AS, JvS, MP, DJ]
  • Celtic Knot:
  • Other? (give example):


  • Red all over: [DJ]
  • Red + Purple & Green highlights: [AS, JvS, MP]
  • Other? (give example):


  • Royal 2A:
  • Tiara 2B:
  • Spikey 2C: [JvS - but I can live with 2E, too, MP - closer to heraldic style.]
  • Eastern 2E: [AS, DJ]
  • Floating 2G:
  • Other? (give example):


  • Small tuft of flame 2A: [AS, JvS, MP]
  • Fire breath Grr Arghh 2i:
  • Gene Simmons Tongue 2C:
  • No Adornment 2D: [DJ]
  • Other? (give example):

Gold Highlight on Green?

  • Yes: [AS]
  • No: [MP- Enough colours already, DJ, JvS - changed my vote]
  • Abstain: [JvS]


  • I still think no. 1 would be very suitable as a logo for the Royal Kemrese Railways! --IJzeren Jan 08:22, 5 November 2005 (PST)

Just testing to see if we can solve the flag proposal with a poll. - AndrewSmith 02:36, 5 November 2005 (PST)

I like version "2i" myself. Zahir 06:23, 5 November 2005 (PST)

The red, purple and green highlights is what I meant by 'Royal Blue' so these results can be added together. I plan to review the poll at the end of the week, after I have completed my last assignment for the year (Yay!) - AndrewSmith 18:58, 5 November 2005 (PST)

I'm curious, what exactly does "Royal Blue" refer to ?
This colour does exist. I googled for it and one website defined it as: 2360DE or 306EFF or 2B65C or 2554C7 - AndrewSmith
Incidently, in the end if there is a tie remember that it is *your* part of IB so go with what feel right to you. --Marc Pasquin 15:43, 6 November 2005 (PST)

Closing this now. My ruling is in favour of 2i, with the tuft of flame and without the gold highlight. Marc, can you put this together? - AndrewSmith 20:44, 14 November 2005 (PST)

Will do.--Marc Pasquin 15:12, 15 November 2005 (PST)
I've tried one myself, following your ruling. It's here, on the right. Is this what you mean, Andrew? —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:56, 6 January 2006 (PST)
Can it be done without a grr! argh! mouth? I like the tuft of flame positioned like 2A or 2B. - AndrewSmith 13:37, 6 January 2006 (PST)



I should have sent this a while back. I made a high resolution version so that it can suit any need. this is standard size version with all (I think) the modification request. If everyone approve, I modifiy the logos and flags that might include it. --Marc Pasquin 16:04, 7 February 2006 (PST)

...And I will replace the earlier design with the new one! Elemtilas 16:19, 7 February 2006 (PST)
Marc and Andrew, would it be okay with you if I upload it to Wikipedia? As you may or may not know, me and someone else have set up a Portal:Constructed languages there, and Brithenig has been nominated for "language of the month April". Now, it would be nice if we could also add a picture to that!
Speaking about the portal, it might be interesting to know that the "Did you know..." section includes an item on Brithenig on Thursdays and an item on Ill Bethisad on Saturdays. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 03:04, 10 February 2006 (PST)
Just one thing I want to make sure of: by allowing it on wikipedia, doesn't that mean I'm giving up any rights to my image ? I have no problem with list members using it in whatever way they want but I'm not sure I want to release it into the public domain. --Marc Pasquin 05:28, 10 February 2006 (PST)
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